Gun Forms

[IronFist]

Part 1.

Haha, what do you guys think about gun forms? Most people agree that guns should be an integral part of one's MA training today. So what do you think?

Part 2.

The say Samurai used to practice drawing and cutting with their sword 1000's of times per day (I don't mean actually cutting something 1000's of times, that would dull the blade. I mean performing the techniques in the air). Do you guys who practice with guns and or concealed knives practice drawing them over and over to get it down?

IronFist

[yenhoi]

Yes, as a matter of fact.

[yenhoi]

Knives and guns.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Yes, as a matter of fact.

Which question are you answering? Or both?

IronFist

[Stranger]

The SAS use gun forms.

[Sho]

I thought you meant the staff. :D

Well anyway, my strong opinion is NO (to the guns). You can practice fire weapon marksmanship in an appropriate club - not in kungfu classes.

[sean_stonehart]

No guns at the guan, but guns at the range. Practice both dry & live fire exercises (drawing from concealment, firing from awkward positions, firing off handed, etc...).

As far as knife training goes, most CMA's (being general) have at least one dagger form. Take it apart & figure out the applications. Get a training buddy & plastic knives & work on the fighting applications. Supplement if necessary with Filipino knife fighting or Western training like Fairburn-Sikes, Applegate-Fairburn or Hoch Hocheim's (sp) knife fighting skills.

These are all just physical training methods with some emphasis on the mental aspect of "what happens if...". That's a big thing that needs to be focused on as well. The mental aspect of using a "modern weapon" versus a "classical weapon". How many of us are going to face slicing somebody up with a dao or jian? Probabaly not many, but knives & guns... that's different.

[rogue]

"Haha, what do you guys think about gun forms? Most people agree that guns should be an integral part of one's MA training today. So what do you think?"

Yes, but you need more than range training to use a gun safely and effectivly. Any monkey can shoot a gun and hit a target but it takes training with someone who knows how to use it in a dynamic situation to become safe and effective.

"The say Samurai used to practice drawing and cutting with their sword 1000's of times per day (I don't mean actually cutting something 1000's of times, that would dull the blade. I mean performing the techniques in the air). Do you guys who practice with guns and or concealed knives practice drawing them over and over to get it down?"

It's called dry firing. You also have to practice reloading, clearing, jams, moving, room clearing, identifying good guys and bad, and even maintainence. As I've found out if you aren't practicing these constantly you really don't know how to use a firearm.

[yenhoi]

First Bruce Lee quote on this thread goes to rogue.

Anyways, Ironfist, yes to both questions. We dont have a gun form, but we do train regularly with guns and knives.

This is a big part of the gun training, for a couple handguns, a standard shotgun, and a rifle:

You also have to practice reloading, clearing, jams, moving, room clearing, identifying good guys and bad, and even maintainence. As I've found out if you aren't practicing these constantly you really don't know how to use a firearm.

In the kwoon we train with concealed weapons often. We train knifes more then guns. Once a month we goto a fireing range and blast away. Shooting the gun is the easy part. Not being shot is what you have to worry about.

The biggest thing about guns is the biggest thing about self-defense: Awareness. Being aware of where you are and whats going on and whos around and what and who are dangers or possible dangers. Part of being aware is not going places or putting yourself in environments where danger is more likely.

I dunno, If your going to realistically train for the streets, some knowledge of firearms is necessary to "be ready."

[Ford Prefect]

I think it depends on your state. Here in Mass where liberals rule, it is next to impossible to get a license to carry. Getting an FID is hard enough. Because of this, I train in basic militia type training like firearms usage, markmanship, basic combat tactics, CQB. I wouldn't be using a gun on the street, but maybe during a home invasion or a terror attack plunging the neighborhood into anarchy. ;) All in all, I'd rather have a gun and not need one than need a gun and not have one.

[GeneChing]

"Traditional" gun forms do exist, although most of it is for bayonet and rifle. Remeber the gun has been with us for several centuries now. In fact, the samurai used to practice 'gun forms' - it memory serves it was called hojitsu. They later gave up the gun, which was a fascinating cultural choice when you think about it. Anyway, in kungfu, there are also some gun forms, mostly kept by the military and police, and again mostly rifle and bayonet. As for the saturday night special form, well, maybe that's something for us americans to work out in our copius spare time. ;)

[Stranger]

Rogue is correct. There are many drawing, moving, reloading, entry, and clearing drills that are essentially forms

The SAS form I saw required the shooter to move through a pre-choregraphed routine containing various shooting postures (prone, weaver, kneeling, one-handed, prone turnover, 180 degree prone spins, etc. while aiming a HANDgun and firing (dry firing at first and later with LIVE FIRE but this is the SAS).

I have seen videotape of Spetsnaz doing similar movements but in an improvisational nature, not choreographed step-by-step routines.

[Tainan Mantis]

Before WW2 the ROC military utilized a form in basic training for its soldiers.
The name of the form is Chuji Chuen.
This form was practiced with a rifle and bayonet as well as empty hand.
There is footage of the military practicing this form with weapon.

It is a combination of Eagle Claw, Baji and Praying Mantis.
This form can be practiced for one person or as a partner sparring drill. It can also be broken up into short fighting drills.

In our school as well as Tien Shan Pai school it still exists as an empty hand training method, but I think the rifle aspect is gone as it is illegal to own a gun in Taiwan.

There is also the next form called Zhongji Chuen of higher complexity that is also trained for one or two people.

The interesting thing about these two forms is that the techniques of the first half are the counterpart for the techniques of the second half.

[yenhoi]

I guess I do have a few "gun forms."

15 count manual and exibition 15 count manual.

Among some others. :D

[Budokan]

I was always taught that "dry firing" a gun was bad for it. Is this not true?

[yenhoi]

Depending on the gun, yes. Its not like it hurts it everytime, just dont do it too much. With proper maintenance it really doesnt hurt.

[HopGar]

Yes, I do practice pulling out my knife. I'm not old enough to own a gun but will do those soon enough. I try to work regularly against knives and guns (fake or unloaded of course)

[guohuen]

Dry firing a hammerless does nothing harmfull. For a firearm with hammers use plastic snap caps to absorb the impact.