Tai Chi and Shuai-Chiao

[Azure]

I have read people calling Shuai-Chiao the 'practical application of Tai Chi' and say that 'the advanced Shuai-chiao practitioner views Shuai-chiao and Tai-chi as two sides of the same coin meeting at a junction, but coming from totally different origin.'

I was wondering to what extent these two statements are true? Has anyone here had experence with both systems?

Shuai-Chiao seems to me to be taught as an applied art in general more than Tai Chi. I will hopefully be able to learn Chen Tai Chi from a very good instructor soon, however I also have the option of Shuai-Chiao. I am just trying to explore the differnces and benefits of each one.

[wingchunner]

... studying chen style tai chi first from a highly qualified individual with a great lineage first. Shuai Chiao will develop from there vs. the other way around.

Marty

[Water Dragon]

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1035918672

[Stacey]

in the same way that Aikido or chin na is the practical application of tai chi


Or that shuai chiao is the practical application of karate or hsing I or ba gua.

[Azure]

wingchunner: Thanks for the advice.
Water Dragon: Thanks for the link, an informative thread.
Stacey: Drugs are bad.

One more question: I was also wondering if 'Chi' is emphasized in Shuai-Chiao? I mean in the sense of cultivating it, having a balance in your system, etc in a similar way to Tai Chi.

[neptunesfall]

shuai chiao doesn't really emphasize qi, in of itself. the emphasis is more on techniques, applications and body mechanics. some stances etc from shuai chiao may be considered qigong meditations, however there is very little to do with nonsense such as 'empty force' and related.

coming from the other side of the coin as wingchunner, i say study the shuai chiao first. learn the applications of the techniques first, then use the tai chi for body and mind development.
either way is correct, as long as you are definitely learning the techniques. if you're not learning to fight from day one, you're not learning either art.

[MaFuYee]

hello azure,

i study yang style tai chi, and my teacher often relates our tai chi applications to shuai chaio throws.

e.g. the throwing application of 'brush knee, twist step', is taught as the tai chi equivalent of a shuai chaio technique call 'neck surrounding', or 'neck wrapping'. (not sure if that is the exact name.)

also, it is worthy to note, that chang tung sheng, perhaps the most famous shaui chaio practitioner of the 20th century, adopted and created his own variant of tai chi, which he called 'chang-shih tai chi' or chang style tai chi. - it looks just like yang style tai chi to me. - only very minor changes here and there, but it's very recognizable. (i would say it's 85% unchanged.)

... as far as chen style is concerned; i don't know that the author of that particular quote about shaui chiao being the practical application of tai chi, really had chen style in mind when he/she said that.

the thing i noticed about the relation of tai chi and shuai chaio, is that shuai chiao has tons of throws... (obviously) but tai chi only seems to have kept the major (read, most often used) throws and left out the more "advanced" (read, complicated, or not so often used; and generally low percentage) throws.

but that seems to be a general theme that i notice about tai chi. - it's "simple".

i often hear people relate tai chi to aikido; but again, when i talk to my friends who do aikido, i find that they have lots of throws, grapples and projections that tai chi doesn't (to my knowledge, or at least doesn't emphasize) but the most commonly used aikido throws are in tai chi.

e.g. ... i forget the name of the throw in aikido, but if i'm not mistaken, i believe i've heard it called the "breath throw" (obviously not the actual name, but i believe that that is the translitteral name) (... was it ikkyo??)
that is nearly identical to 'white crane spreads it's wings'. - tai chi doesn't do throws like irrimi nage, (although that seems to be a very major technique in aikido) because (i believe) they are "too nice", but the rest of the major throws in aikido were all familiar to me from tai chi. (i know aikido has the exact same throws as 'part horses mane', and 'slant flying'.)

but then again, i would say, tai chi is more of a striking art than a throwing art, like shuai chaio or aikido.

my teacher always emphasizes that you must strike first, before you attempt to grapple or throw. - we use the throwing to 'finish', and it is more like an option, or 'dessert' rather than the entree.

... anyhow, shuai chaio is a wonderful art to learn; but, a word of warning, always remember, the real "art" is in the mastery of the basics. - it does you no good to learn 50 million throws and be good at none of them. - if you get really good at one throw. - you'll be better than most.

cheers,
Ma.

[Azure]

Thanks MaFuYee,

Appreciate your comments. Especially about concentrating my effort on perfecting a small number of techniques. It is very easy to get caught up learning increasingly complicated techniques without having the basics. Interesting to see the similarities between the different disciplines, I guess each has had at least a mild influence on the other.

One question though, you seem to highlight that your teacher emphasises striking first, do you feel that Shuai Chaio does not accommodate well enough for that? Or are you simply illustrating the differences between the two?

Anyway thanks again.

[MaFuYee]

azure,

striking is a big part of shuai chaio in it's combative aspect; but not in competition.

... if you ask me who i think the top martial artist of the 20th century is, i'd answer, "Chang Tung Sheng". - (whose chosen art was shuai chiao.)

as is said about most great martial artists, it is said that he was unbeaten in combat. (grain of salt) and, he also was a BIG advocate of striking first, and he was also very big into iron palm training. - that is what made his strikes effective.

sure, if you see him demo somthing, he may very well omit the strike; and against someone of much less skill than himself (almost everyone) he may have been able to utilise the throws omiting the strike, but that has to be attributed to his highly developed skill.

but, as i understand it, whenever it came to any sort of "challenge" (using the term loosely) he would employ striking.

... now, some shuai chaio schools are leaning towards a more competition oriented setting, and it is my understanding that striking is much less emphasized in the classroom setting. (very likely partly in consideration of insurance purposes.)

(striking isn't that complicated anyway. - even someone with no training can make a fist and beat someone's skull in.)

(but, s.c. does have strikes)

i don't know about 'all' shaui chaio schools, but i know some still empahsize striking in their teaching, and also teach iron palm.

in competition, you need to first 'offbalance' your opponent to open the window of opportunity fot the throw. - in combat, the strike would serve the purpose of the offbalance, opening the window of opportunity. - without that, the person can resist, escape, counter, or strike.

- you can't offbalance without first making contact with your opponent, but against a striker if you're close enough to make contact, you're already in striking distance, and it would put you at a major disadvantage to try to go for a grab and offbalance. - just look at the ufc's where the "grapplers" would eat hits on their way in against the "strikers". (not the ideal way to do it. - and it's even worse if the guy trained iron palm.)

combatants don't 'clinch' when begining a street fight.

(does that make sense?)

s.c. has only a very few strikes, as compared to some other systems, but they are very widely useful against any type of fighter. (e.g. a highly skilled s.c. player would be able to utilise s.c.'s strikes against a boxer, as well as a grappler, etc.) ... and i definitely think that having a small number of techniques is a distinct advantage.

(how many strikes does boxing have? - does that make it bad?) - hsing-i is another very effective system that i really like, that is primarily a striking art that has only a few strikes. (5. - as in the 5 element fists. - i don't count the various animals (12) as i see the 5 elements as being the real heart and soul of hsing-i.)

even tai chi does not have very many strikes. - everything is kept as simple as possible; and that is the beauty of the art.

* they say that at the highest levels, all martial arts look the same. - but yet there can be variation. if you look at boxing as an example. - boxing is boxing, and you've got your jab, cross, hooks, and uppercuts; yet different boxers have distinctly different styles. and some boxers are better at some things, ... you get the idea...

i hope you've been able to fish out your answer from somewhere beneath my ramblings...

peace outside.
Ma.

[Water Dragon]

Yes, Shuai Chiao does have striking (and kicking and locking) pretty much for the reason Ma said. You can't just walk up to someone and grab them, well you can, but it's not the smartest thing in the world.

One of the things that makes Shaui Chiao (at least the Baoding Prvince variety) a little confusing, is that it will be different wherever you go. Some teachers teach another art in conjunction with Shuai Chiao, some teachers just show a few concepts that teach you how to use striking to "enter the fight".

What makes Shuai Chiao different is the mindset. Most arts will use strikes to defeat the opponent and then a throw to finish him. Shuai Chiao will use strikes to get into the fight, and then use throws in combinations to finish him. Personally, I've never seen another art that will use 3 and 4 throw combinations as a major part of its fighting strategy.

So basically: same weapons, different idea

[MaFuYee]

yeah... it's pretty crazy.

but i think having too many choices complicates matters.

besides, once you throw a guy to the ground, all you really need to do is stomp on his head till it gets soft.

you probably did a decent amount a damage with just the throw. (e.g. arm/leg joint damage)
even more so if the person doesn't know how to fall safely.

[Water Dragon]

Hmmm, I don’t really think choices complicate the matter at all. For example, I’m about 6’1” and 175 lbs. That makes me a sweeper (sweeps, reaps, blocks, breaks, hooks, and back kicks—I LOVE back kicks) I need at least a few of each for combinations. What if my sweep didn’t work? Oh, OK, he’s set up for a break. Man, the break didn’t work, but he’s set up for a hook, etc. That’s the combination part that makes Shuai Chiao throwing unique, IMO.

So, if all I practice are those throws, I should be fine. Unless I have to/want to teach someone today.

What if I guy comes around and wants to learn Shuai Chiao? What if he’s 5’5” and 180 lbs? I guess I could teach him the sweep game, but that wouldn’t be very efficient for him. Wht he really needs to learn are hip throws, lifts, raises, leg picks, etc. That’s what he is built for. So it’s a pretty good diea for me to have a decent hip throw even if I’ll most likely never use one. Besides, it’s fun and I get to learn how to defend the throw if someone ever tries it on me.

Of course, in my personal practice I agree with you. Practice what’s good for you. Just learn the rest well enough to teach it.

[Azure]

Thanks for the replies I'm glad I found people with some experience of both arts. I can't wait to start training.

Forgive me for being slow but can you please explain 'Personally, I've never seen another art that will use 3 and 4 throw combinations as a major part of its fighting strategy.' I am not sure what you mean by 'throw combinations'.

You also mention the fact that some teachers teach another art in conjunction with Shuai Chiao, to supplement the striking if I have understood correctly? I ask because an art like Hsing-yi or Water Boxing also interest me. You said that Chang Tung Sheng created his own style of Tai Chi, how do you think Shuai Chiao gels with the other internal arts? Would training Shuai Chiao and an internal art (at the same time) be feasible?

[Water Dragon]

Forgive me for being slow but can you please explain 'Personally, I've never seen another art that will use 3 and 4 throw combinations as a major part of its fighting strategy.' I am not sure what you mean by 'throw combinations'.

Well, let's say that I try to sweep the inside of your right foot with my right foot and you don't go down. That's throw one It also puts me into position to drive my right foot backward into a Bow Stance which will clip your left leg. That's throw two. If that doesn't work, i can either hook your left leg, or sweep your right again. Throw 3. That's combination throwing.

You also mention the fact that some teachers teach another art in conjunction with Shuai Chiao, to supplement the striking if I have understood correctly? I ask because an art like Hsing-yi or Water Boxing also interest me. You said that Chang Tung Sheng created his own style of Tai Chi, how do you think Shuai Chiao gels with the other internal arts? Would training Shuai Chiao and an internal art (at the same time) be feasible?

Shuai Chiao should help you no matter what you decide to take. But I'm sure Wing Chun will to. Who do you plan on studying with, BTW? Just curious.

[dezhen2001]

thats interesting guys :) i dont practise any shuai jiao but do aikido and we also train for using throws and techniques in combination. Also a lot of time is training to counter and even counter the counters etc. As well as how to recover when techniques dont go as planned :)

ive been looking at some clips of shuai jiao and qin na and they look very interesting...

dawood

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, it's a lot of fun. Did you know that Chang Tung Sheng was Muslim?

[dezhen2001]

i just joined emptyflower and was reading that the other day, thanks for telling me though :)

i agree with some of what was said there, that having to do salat (prayer) 5 times a day really leads to a lot of discipline and great focus, especially as it means you can get a lot done in the day (1st prayer is just before sunrise).

Anyway, i found these lil video clips on aikido techniques and fluidity, pretty powerful!

http://www.bujindesign.com/videoclips.html#irimi

so much for aikido being 'nice' :D

dawood

[Azure]

Thanks I understand what you mean now, interesting approach, sounds very cool. Do they specifically drill throw combinations?

Not sure who I am going to learn from, Will be in Sydney which is why I was considering learning Chen Taiji- with Chen Xiao Wang teching there. I am not there at the moment so haven't been able to find a Shuai Chiao instructor. If you could recommend any in the Sydney area that would be cool.

[Water Dragon]

Yes, you drill the combos in the same way you would drill jab-cross-hook in boxing. We also do "shadow throwing" which is really just combining the 24 forms.

I put an e-mail out to see if there are any teachers in Australia. I'll let you know what I find out.

[Walter Joyce]

FWIW, if you have the opportunity to train with CXW, take it.

[Azure]

Water Dragon: Cheers, appreciate you taking the time to help.

Walter Joyce: Studying under someone like Chen Xiao Wang would be great. I am considering doing an internal art along with Shuai Chiao, so if I decide to go with Taiji I would jump at the opportunity to train with him. It really comes down to how much it will all cost though. I doubt I could afford to study under someone of Chen Xiao Wang’s renown, particularly if I am going to be studying Shuai Chiao simultaneously.

[MaFuYee]

hey azure,

i would reccommend just picking one; after checking out all of your options.

also, don't get caught up in the "more, more, more" mentality... learn a little, and work it like crazy.

[cha kuen]

Do any of you guys know Dr Daniel Weng? He only teaches the chang tai chi form but no push hands with it. He incorporates chin na in the tai chi teaching.



**Kung Fu Books** (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Are you sure about that? When I learned Chang Taiji from Dr. Wu, there was most definitely push hands skills involved.

[Merryprankster]

WD,

I don't usually post on this forum, but I noticed the bit about SC throwing in combination--I'd just like to point out that it's not unique. Judoka and wrestlers drill follow-up combinations constantly.

An example--I like Uchi Mata. If it doesn't work, I try Ko Uchi Gari, and if that doesn't work, I go to O Uchi Gari, and I can fish back into Uchi mata on either follow-up to start the process again.

[MonkeySlap Too]

MP - you are right - combinations are critical to all grappling. In my Judo experience, we never had it taught with the same focus and detail as in Shuai Chiao, however I met a Sambo / Systema guy who has all the same drills minus the Kua work. So it is found in some fashion or another in good fighting styles. Just like anything, it's up to the quality of the coach.

I plan to check out the Scottish and Swiss styles of stand-up grappling later this year. I saw some footage of the Swiss and the technical similarities to Shuai Chiao / Boke / Sambo are astounding.

Oh, and congrats on your victory. Enjoy the taste of it.

[Water Dragon]

No, MP, it's not unique to all arts. But I have seen it as being unique from other CMA. There are throws in Karate, but the way Judo does them in combination is very different than other Japanese arts. That's wat I was getting at. Judo and SC are very similar in how they approach throws. But there are also differences in the same way that Western Boxing is different than Muay Thai though both are solid striking arts.

[Merryprankster]

I'll buy that WD. I think that's reasonable and certainly misunderstood your larger point.

Monkeyslap Too--thanks for the congratulations. I appreciate it!

[scholar]

Wu Chien Ch'uan style T'ai Chi Ch'uan has many throws and combinations of throws. The Wu family are originally from Manchuria, where, as in neighbouring Mongolia, wrestling is a national pastime. So generations of the Wu family have applied T'ai Chi power generation and offsetting technique to various throws, footsweeps, trapping and locking and groundfighting more systematically than have the other T'ai Chi families. The other families do have some throws and groundfighting at their highest levels, but in Wu style the repertoire of throws and combinations of throws is extensive. Throws are introduced typically very early, right after basic Pushing Hands.
"Why should I hit someone with my fist when I can hit them with the ground or a wall?"
Throws and groundwork are also very handy for dealing strategically with multiple opponents.
This training and its results are very different from anything in Shuai Chiao or other CMA, Jiu Jitsu, Aikido, or Judo. The stances are different, the closing is different, the uprooting technique is different and the severity of injuries that can result is different.

[Water Dragon]

So far, no word on the Shuai Chiao. Chen Taiji is good stuff though.