incorrect info at www.buksing.com about ngan yiu ting

[choyleefutman]

I have studied the history of CLF , along with who's who in the CLF arena. I came across with reading the history of Tam, Sarm's life history at buksing.com, and read that Vince Lacey mentioned that there was a feud between Tam, Sarm and Ngan, Yiu Ting, and Ngan's two family members, and Tam won all three of them etc....as quoted below:

'All went well for Tarm Sarm until one day, while his Sifu Lui Chang was away, he had a confrontation with a senior classmate, Ngan Yui Ting, and two of his family members. They all happened to be his ¡¥Si-Sook¡¦s¡¦ (his Sifu¡¦s fellow junior colleagues, or younger uncles), and Tarm Sarm subsequently beat up all three of them! After this, the incident was known as ¡¥Kuen Da Sarm Ngan¡¦, or ¡¥Fist Defeated Three Ngan¡¦s¡¦! '

The truth of the matter is, Ngan, Yiu Ting, was a closed-door disciple of Chan, Koon Pak for years, and never a student of Lui, Charn. Ngan, Yiu Ting also had only one brother who was not even in the martial arts arena. So the basis for what Vince mentioned about Ngan being Tam's senior and 'fist defeated three Ngan's' just can't stand on its own foot.

There was indeed a feud between Ngan and Tam, and the result of it was actually well documented in several historical text published in Guangzhou, China. I have read them all myself.
I will not disclose how the feud ended as this is unfair to all parties involved.

I have no interest to stir up any trouble, but just want to clarify a few things here about Ngan, Yiu Ting's life history....

For those of us who have not heard of Ngan, Yiu Ting , he was the late CLF master Ho, Ngau's sifu. Ngan's school was named 'jup sheng tong' in the BoonTong district in Guangzhou.
Ho Ngau was one of the students and I believe he was the only one managed to escape to Hong Kong after the communist take-over of China in 1949.

Choyleefutman

[JAZA]

May be is another Ngan Yiu Ting, coincidence of name is not uncommon.

[CLFNole]

I think he stated that Ngan Yiu Ting was Tam Sam's sisuk. That would make him Liu Chan's si dai and thus he would be Tam Sam's senior.

As far as the brothers and the whole story I don't know I have heard two versions, one having Tam Sam winning the other Ngan Yiu Ting.

Peace.

[SETANSI]

To avoid more long winded debates on clf history just relate your story ,instead of posting that some one else's lineage/history/story is incorrect.

We will all beleive what has been tought to us and any amount of posting here will not change that.

besides students of buk sing clf know Tarm Sarm never lost a fight, exept to his sifu.:D

[choyleefutman]

No problem...anyone can choose to believe what he wants to, but I believe what I read from various published articles in Guangzhou, China rather than from hearsays, etc. Truth might be heartbreaking and confidence-cracking, but I would not be afraid to accept it if it is well supported by various texts published by more than one agency...

and the purpose of my post initially is not to stir up any more long winding debates, but to point out some incorrect info about how Ngan yiu ting was described as 3 family members, etc. at buksing.com as I know something about the Ngan family history and the Chan family, a little more than some of us here as they had been quite low-profiled, especially after the 1949 communist take-over, that's all.

[JAZA]

Getting out of the polemic, a descendat of Ngan Yiu Ting is established in SF.
Ngan Cho Keong is his name
choyleefutman, do you have any contacts with him?

[yik-wah-tik]

man, is this fight ever going to end?

even i say this is rediculous now. where is the learning? where is the discussion? instead closet ninjas come out attack as always from the safety of their own little world.

i think that most of you should come out publicly with this information you believe to be real. throw it in the air and see where it falls. make your opinions known openly and yourselves accessible to those of us who know differently.

with all the resistance of the buk sing and hung sing schools all who are brining out the information publicly but all this debate is going as far as this forum. none of you will expose yourselves so keep it here. but the story is being researched and one thing is for sure the 100% truth will never be known. but we have actual living members who lived thru the clf explosion who openly state the chan family account is not true. i personally would like to learn info from a survivor than a later generation writer. lun chee has openly stated the true history, and has stated that the current account in incorrect from the chan point of view.

i have stepped away from this forum because it is a waste of time.
at least i am doing something about it other than sit in front of a computer arguing with the same old handful of hard headed people. for me now, this is only entertainment.

learn a few things here buddies!!!!!!!

[Serpent]

And yet, here you are again, Frank. You say the 100% truth will never be known, then you claim to know the Chan history is not true.

You've only ever been entertainment ever since you first appeared here.

[yik-wah-tik]

slurpent,

you bore me. dude! you can suck a ****!

as to your comment...........the chan family account is only a small
piece of the glorious history of clf. you fail to take into account the points of view of the buk sing and hung sing branches. choy lee fut could never choy lee fut without the hung sing and buk sing branches. have't you learned anything from the beatings master dave lacey has laid upon your poor souls?

so if you fail to acknowledge the hung sing and buk sing kwoons you are only 1/3 of the way. learn the hung sing and buk sing sides of the story then come back and talk to me.

the chan side of things has failed in producing hard evidence in proving the hung sing family wrong in our account of the history.
so as long as you argue a one sided shut the **** up

frank

[choyleefutman]

JAZA,

No, heard about him, but never met him as he is 6-7 hours away from me. Too far away as I live way up near Oregon.

[iron_silk]

Actually it is impossible to know the history 100%

The only self-serving view is from certain hungsing/buksing followers. Claiming CLF can never be and how Chan Heung is a little part and jueng yim is the glorious part...I mean please.

Everyone from then to now has helped make CLF glorious...or in your case notorious (I'm not trying to be cute)...in logic they all have and Chan Heung alone has. What is CLF if not something that people each generation improves upon. Even if you believe Jeung Yim to have learned from someone else...he would be merely adding to his master's existing glorious style to his own lineage (i.e. Hung Sing) or if he is so up to creating a style he can create his own! (much like how Chan Heung did)

And not trying to step in the glory of others, but would never do so to his own master. Or perhaps he didn't think much of his master and elevating his own status is ok with him, but probability unlikely for that period of time. Heck even for nowadays it's not too positive to do so.

Discussion enough??? =)

Oh please you trying to equate Buk Sing's Lineage as a full 1/3 of the history? Even if you believe Jeung Yim's part in the creation it doesn't make Buk Sing involved in the history we are discussing at all. Unless you are refering to it's own lineage and history...then you are simply talking about something else all together.

Hard evidence? You are the one to talk...not only does your "history" lack evidence it is literally grabbing for any little X-file like theory possible.

I know how Lacey behaved but even k-no agreed with me about his behaviour.

Seeing as how you are one that shouting hung sing history is the only right one why don't you...and may I quote you:

" so as long as you argue a one sided shut the **** up"

:D sorry I didn't mean to be insulting but you had to go on and say something like that...which is so fitting for yourself.

[Serpent]

Well said, Iron-silk.

Frank, you really don't seem to realise that you are the worst culprit of the things you accuse everyone else of. Dave Lacey laying beatings on our souls? His lunatic ravings are hardly beatings of any kind. He is just embarrassing himself and his lineage and his style.

You have supplied no solid evidence of anything.

You are shouting very loud a one sided argument.

I am well aware of the Hung Sing and Buk Sing histories. I'm not the one trying to shout so loud to make everyone believe in something new.

Please, take your own and Iron-Silk's advice.

[TenTigers]

Why is it that people have to make themselves appear great by bashing others, instead of having their art stand on its own merits? Is it at all possible to have both schools agree to disagree and just say that they both love CLF and be done with it? These fueds only make everyone look bad. A wing chun Sifu (who shall remain nameless) did the same thing, and has lost respect in the Wing Chun community as a result of his mudslinging. The fact of the matter is, nobody really cares. Who has so much free time on their hands that they are so concerned with the political BS? Wouldn't time be better spent teaching, improving their schools, students and themselves and helping spread this glorious art? or...not. your call.

[yik-wah-tik]

if you guys and um, *****es.....i mean slurpent getting his knees dirty, if you poosies (pussies) don't like my manner, who the **** cares? you are neither my friends or potential students so why should i show your sorry asses any respect. you know who i am who the hell are you?

sorry ass internet ninjas hair pai gangsters!

that is why you can so boldly attack because you are safe behind your computer screens. the way you talk **** here, i wouldn't be shocked if one of you actually lose your lives for all the smack you talk. and i do mean killed! so stay behind your safety walls!

talk is cheap. so is the quality of your gung fu! bithces!!!!

frank mccarthy
hsk-sf/futsan

[iron_silk]

Look at the poor baby!

When you can't talk your way through you start throwing threats against our lives.

When you fail to debate about history you attempt to change the topic to "gung fu"

This is a forum...of course we are behind computers. So when you fail to win an argument you like to threaten people physically right? That is what I am getting from your comments:

that is why you can so boldly attack because you are safe behind your computer screens. the way you talk **** here, i wouldn't be shocked if one of you actually lose your lives for all the smack you talk. and i do mean killed! so stay behind your safety walls!

Well I am certain you can kill me. In fact I am certain many people can kill me. My kung fu is non-existant. So the only thing I do see is that you like throwing your weight around and bully people with your physical ability when your mental capacity is limited.

The only thing I regret is that the stupid bickering has allowed you to return with more of your inane and insulting comments.

We never boasted or tried to threaten people like you. You are nothing but "talk" which makes you the cheapest of us all.

Doesn't matter what you claim or even if you are a teacher because you act like a child. Grow up!

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by yik-wah-tik
slurpent,

the chan side of things has failed in producing hard evidence in proving the hung sing family wrong in our account of the history.
so as long as you argue a one sided shut the **** up

frank


The reason why Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon could not continue to "produce" history is because the official historian who is behind Frank's "world shuttering" new version of CLF history just got the sack for corruption. The Cultural Department has decided to move on and poor Frank is left high and dry and very quiet, at least for the time being.

[Drake]

I was hoping that the clash of the egos would subside, but apparently people are just having too much fun.
I do not CARE about Vince Lacey OR his "rivals/critics" or whatever it is his school offers. And allow me to tell you why.

1. Confrontation should be avoided, not encouraged.

2. Arrogance is the greatest killer of otherwise excellent warriors.

3. Name-calling and inflammatory statements only worsen the situation.

4. If one is solid in his/her position, one should not have to resort to not only constant, but even momentary bickering over trivial details.

5. Strength is not measured in aggression, but in resolve, and discretion.

I expect a full retaliation for this from either side, and by all means, have fun with it. And if the face to face issue is a big deal, my e-mail is Drakertrns@aol.com, and I will be at Ft. Huachuca come early January.
This is less a critique than a request for all parties involved to step back and think about what they are saying.

Drake~

[Serpent]

Originally posted by extrajoseph



The reason why Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon could not continue to "produce" history is because the official historian who is behind Frank's "world shuttering" new version of CLF history just got the sack for corruption. The Cultural Department has decided to move on and poor Frank is left high and dry and very quiet, at least for the time being.

:D

[SETANSI]

FROM SIFU LEE OF LKH'S LINE (LKH IS FOO PAW'S SI GUNG)

History of Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut

The birthplace of Choy Lay Fut was in the county of Futsan, Guangzhou province, China.
Chang Heung was a village teacher who was known to be proficient in Martial Art and he taught in the Chan Clan of King Mui village in Sun Hui county. One day a young Martial Arts enthusiast by the name of Jeong Yim was introduced to him. Jeong Yim was in need of temporary abode and Chan Heung took him in. It was said that Chan secretly imparted his knowledge of the Choy and Lay Kar fighting techniques to Jeong Yim, as strict traditional clan rules forbid him from doing so openly since Jeong Yim was an outsider.

When the village elders discovered this secret years later, Chan had to send Jeong Yim away. He gave him a letter of introduction to a Shaolin Monk by the name of Chi Cho (Green Grass) at Mount Bakpei. (Chan was supposed to have gone under the monk for study in the Shaolin fighting art years ago but due to some reasons, it did not materialise). The monk accepted Jeong Yim as his student.
He not only mastered the Shaolin Palm techniques but also acquired knowledge on the use of herbal medicine from the monk. Before his departure from Mount Bakpai, the Monk gave him an alias.
He was to be known henceforth as Jeong Hong Sing - with the implied meaning that the Hong (Hung) Moon (Triad Organisation of that time) would "Sing" - triumph over the Ching Government.

Upon his return to the village, Jeong Hung Sing awed the villagers with his skill and was received warmly by Chan. Jeong Hung Sing reciprocated his teacher by sharing his newfound skill with him. They accorded each other with the respect as fellow disciples and began to synthesise the fighting skill from the three different schools of Choy, Lay and Fut (Buddha).

The art which they referred to as "Fut Kar Zheng Zhung" - meaning, the origin of Shaolin.

Every school of Martial Arts has their own unique form of salutation. The founders of Choy Lay Fut developed a series of fast and successive movements as the Choy Lay Fut salutation. These movements with esoteric names were personifications of a poem, which contained revolutionary sentiments. The poem consists of four stanzas with a main character in each stanza. When the four characters were stringed together in sequence, it would read "Overthrow the Ching, restore the Ming"

The founding of Futsan Hong Sing Koon

The name Jeong Hong Sing became synonymous to Choy Lay Fut. The first ever Hong Sing Koon was founded in 1839 by Jeong Hong Sing in Futsan county of Guangzhou province. Among his choice disciples were Chan Ngau Sing, Lei Yan, Tam Lup, Lui Chan and many others.
There were soon more than a dozen branches of Hong Sing Koon in Futsan county as the fighting art gained wide recognition. The popularity of this Martial Art spread to other counties and cities. Many Martial Artists from other schools came to challenge Jeong Hong Sing. They were all defeated. Some became his students; other left with bruises and a bruised ego.

The death of Jeong Hong Sing

The popularity of Choy Lay Fut eclipsed the names of many other Martial Art schools in Guangdong. It created much displeasure to the Martial Artists of other schools because it affected their livelihood.
One day Jeong was ambushed by a group of armed men at the pier where he was to board a boat to the Chan Village. He recognised some of them as Martial Artists he had defeated before. A fierce fight ensued as Jeong used the oil-paper umbrella he was carrying as weapon and put up a good fight.
Three of the assailants were dead and a number of them wounded as the rest of them fled. Jeong was badly wounded as he staggered back to Futsan Hong Sing Koon.
He died from his wounds shortly after.

Regionalisation of Choy Lay Fut

Chan Hau Shing and the rest of Jeong's students went on a rampage in Futsan to seek out their teachers killers. Those who were responsible for the incident went into hiding and in desperation, some of then sought refuge with the Manchu government.
They charged that Futsan Hong Sing Koon was the headquarter of anti-government activities. That led to a clamp down on Choy Lay Fut practitioners and the closure of Futsan Hong Sing Koon.
Jeong's students scattered and successfully spread Choy Lay Fut throughout China.

Home

[CLFNole]

Setansi:

This article was put together by a student of Lee Koon Hung & Li Siu Hung and was not written by Lee Koon Hung but rather 4-5 years after his passing. Sifu Lee Koon Hung never told any of us that Jeong Yim was the founder of CLF.

The story he gave was that Chan Hueng and Cheong Yim were kind of "co-founders" however Chan Hueng was considered the Si Jo and Cheong the founder of the Hung Sing branch.

Just a clarification for the record.

Peace.

[CLFNole]

Setansi:

Oops sorry thought you meant Li Siu Hung not Lee Siu Ming. Li Siu Hung had an article written recently with a similar story. Lee Siu Ming is one of Lee Koon Hung's older students and lives and teaches in Ireland.

His story is similar to the one LKH told us however Chan Hueng was considered a founder. This is in LKH's book as well. Lee Siu Ming has a slightly different lineage for us on his site than is what is generally recognized to be our actual lineage.

Stories and lineages vary throughout LKH's students, so that in itself shows that nothing is "100% known".

Peace.

[JAZA]

CLFNole:

Will be this history and lineage published in your websites?
In this part of the world printed MA magazines are rare species.

Thanks

[CLFNole]

Jaza:

It is not on the LKH website but it is on Lee Siu Ming's site. You can access the LKH site and get to his through the links section I think.

Peace.

[JAZA]

Thanks.

[SETANSI]

SORRY FOR THE MISCOMUNICATION
BY SIFU LEE I DID NOT INTEAD TO SUGJEST THAT LKH WROTE
THIS IT WAS A CUT AND PASTE FROM SIFU SAM LEE'S WEB SITE.

JUST SHOWING THAT WHAT LKH TOLD HIS STUDENTS IN THE WEST IS NOT THE SAME AS THE HISTORY HE RELATED TO ALL HIS STUDENTS ELSE WHERE

:) PEACE TO ALL

[CLFNole]

Setansi:

The funny thing is the history is slightly different even amonst students in HK. This is why I find the whole history arguement an exercise in futility. We will never know the real truth and to constantly argue amonst each other does nothing for our art.

If you are hung sing, buk sing or chan family, we all do gwa, sow, chop and thats what binds and links all of us.

Peace.

[SETANSI]

CLF NOLE
I AGREE WITH YOU

JUST WANTED TO SHOW THAT SIFU DAVE LACEY IS NOT ALONE IN HIS VIEWS. AND THAT THIS VERSION OF HISTORY IS WELL ACCEPTED BY MANY.




PEACE

FRANK? YOUR 2 CENTS?
LETS KEEP THINGS POLITE FOR A WHILE :D
OH ALSO FRANK PM ME WITH AN E-MAIL ADRESS I CAN REACH YOU WITH I HAVE SOME INFO YOU MAY FIND AMUSING BUT IT IS NOT FOR ALL EYES TO SEE:eek:

[Serpent]

The truth will be known. It already is known, but some people have upset the ox cart, so now the truth just needs to be re-confirmed. That's what real historians and the like do. All will come out in the end.

[SETANSI]

IS THIS A FRUEDIAN SLIP ON YOUR PART. AND I QUOTE-

Serpent
Cling to my buttocks!


THE TRUTH WILL BE KNOWN:eek:

PS KEEP UP THE VERBAL MASTER BAITING IT'S HEALTHY

[CLFNole]

Setansi:

Actually Lee Koon Hung's clf comes from both sides - Chan Heung and Cheong Yim and therefore both are in our version of history. We have never said that we do Chan Family Style and CLF just that we do CLF.

Peace.

P.S. You are right about different perspectives though.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SETANSI
IS THIS A FRUEDIAN SLIP ON YOUR PART. AND I QUOTE-

Serpent
Cling to my buttocks!


THE TRUTH WILL BE KNOWN:eek:

PS KEEP UP THE VERBAL MASTER BAITING IT'S HEALTHY

I know you are operating from a perspective of very little brain, but what the hell are you on about?

To explain (though I know it's fruitless), my avatar is a comic character from the Ren & Stimpy cartoon. He was famous for saying "Cling tenaciously to my buttocks". It's a joke, you know, a bit of humour. Why would that be any kind of Freudian slip? Do you even really know what a Freudian slip is?

And enough with the Joseph stuff. It should be obvious from syntax and writing style that we're different people, but you obviously don't have the wherewithall to even consider that.

Does it make it easier for you to think of me and Joseph as one person? Does that help to shore up your shaky perceptions of the world?

Get over yourself.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by choyleefutman
I have studied the history of CLF , along with who's who in the CLF arena. I came across with reading the history of Tam, Sarm's life history at buksing.com, and read that Vince Lacey mentioned that there was a feud between Tam, Sarm and Ngan, Yiu Ting, and Ngan's two family members, and Tam won all three of them etc....as quoted below:

'All went well for Tarm Sarm until one day, while his Sifu Lui Chang was away, he had a confrontation with a senior classmate, Ngan Yui Ting, and two of his family members. They all happened to be his ¡¥Si-Sook¡¦s¡¦ (his Sifu¡¦s fellow junior colleagues, or younger uncles), and Tarm Sarm subsequently beat up all three of them! After this, the incident was known as ¡¥Kuen Da Sarm Ngan¡¦, or ¡¥Fist Defeated Three Ngan¡¦s¡¦! '

The truth of the matter is, Ngan, Yiu Ting, was a closed-door disciple of Chan, Koon Pak for years, and never a student of Lui, Charn. Ngan, Yiu Ting also had only one brother who was not even in the martial arts arena. So the basis for what Vince mentioned about Ngan being Tam's senior and 'fist defeated three Ngan's' just can't stand on its own foot.

There was indeed a feud between Ngan and Tam, and the result of it was actually well documented in several historical text published in Guangzhou, China. I have read them all myself.
I will not disclose how the feud ended as this is unfair to all parties involved.

I have no interest to stir up any trouble, but just want to clarify a few things here about Ngan, Yiu Ting's life history....

For those of us who have not heard of Ngan, Yiu Ting , he was the late CLF master Ho, Ngau's sifu. Ngan's school was named 'jup sheng tong' in the BoonTong district in Guangzhou.
Ho Ngau was one of the students and I believe he was the only one managed to escape to Hong Kong after the communist take-over of China in 1949.

Choyleefutman


The feud between Ngan and Tam also went into the next generation. There was a fight between Lee Tao and Lun Gee in Dong Tay area in Canton just before World War II. Lee was a student of Ngan and Lun was a student of Tam. I will not disclose how the fight ended either as this is unfair to all parties involved.

Lun Gee is still alive and he has many students. Ngan also has many students and his Boon Tong district is still very strong and active in CLF. His grandson is in LA carrying on his family tradition. So let us be respectful and keep what we know to ourselves. There is no need to be boastful.

[choyleefutman]

Josephx, ...Ngan Yiu Ting's grandson is in SF.....

[extrajoseph]

Ooops, you are right, Ah Keong is in SF...