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WanderingMonk
11-29-2002, 09:14 AM
Greetings,

I like to ask some questions about the Lohan gong for Northern Praying Mantis. I am learning it from a book and does not have access to an instructor.

1. Should the forms be done with dynamic tension or should it be done with muscle relax (the author did not discuss this)?

2. Is the breathing method the typical reverse breath technique (breath in while contracting the abs.)?

3. Beside lengthening the tendons via stretching does it have another other benefits?

4. Do you do the entire form (all 18) at one session or just a couple at a time?

5. The original text (from the manual which the author adapted from) instructs the students to do the form at particular time in the day. Do your school teach it that way?

6. The original text mention certain merdian in each road, should you concentrate on them during the form?

7. In the sixteenth road, the "salmon flip" (rough translation), it describe a reverse push up with your abs facing skyward. It shows the initial/end posture (with your abs and head facing skyward and four limbs push up against the ground). It doesn't have a transitional posture. Can anybody describe how do you actually push down to the ground? All I can do is to bent the elbows and use my knees as the focrum. But, I can't get very close to the ground. According to the author, you should be able to touch the ground.

Anyways, I know it's alot of questions. So, please answer them if you have the time and are willing to help.

Thank you

Wandering Monk
mantis108
11-29-2002, 12:00 PM
Greetings,

<<I like to ask some questions about the Lohan gong for Northern Praying Mantis. I am learning it from a book and does not have access to an instructor.>>

Not having an instructor is quite limiting in learning the nuance of the form. But I suppose you will have to make do it what you've got. Remember Kung Fu is about details and every detail counts.

<<1. Should the forms be done with dynamic tension or should it be done with muscle relax (the author did not discuss this)?>>

I have seen it done in different flavours. It depends on the style and the teacher. BTW, 18 Lohan is not exclusive to Mantis but it's associated with mantis largely due to the book.

<<2. Is the breathing method the typical reverse breath technique (breath in while contracting the abs.)?>>

Again stylistic differences. My advice is stick with one method and do not switch thereafter.

<<3. Beside lengthening the tendons via stretching does it have another other benefits?>>

There are a few

1) Soft Qigong - health oriented
2) Hard Qigong - Close quater combat conditioning
3) Combat applications - Self defense oriented
4) All of the above plus meditation - Spiritual enlightenment .

As you can see, the teacher is important.

<<4. Do you do the entire form (all 18) at one session or just a couple at a time?>>

There 2 ways at least - one long form or road repetitions. Each has it own benefits and merits.

<<5. The original text (from the manual which the author adapted from) instructs the students to do the form at particular time in the day. Do your school teach it that way?>>

If you intented to go with the ascetic route to persue enlightenment (whatever that may be), then follow that. Otherwise in today's environment, I wish you good luck.

<<<6. The original text mention certain merdian in each road, should you concentrate on them during the form?>>>

That's interesting, the version (by Wong Hon Fun) that I have don't seem to have that. Would you mind elaborating this?

<<<7. In the sixteenth road, the "salmon flip" (rough translation), it describe a reverse push up with your abs facing skyward. It shows the initial/end posture (with your abs and head facing skyward and four limbs push up against the ground). It doesn't have a transitional posture. Can anybody describe how do you actually push down to the ground? All I can do is to bent the elbows and use my knees as the focrum. But, I can't get very close to the ground. According to the author, you should be able to touch the ground.>>>

Very good observation! The version that I learned form Tainan Mantis (a member here) does do this road as reverse push up. Rather it is kind of a bridge. The benefit of this road includes building strength (as seem in the book) and getting out of a Chin Na situation (as fighting form - Tainan Mantis' version).

<<<Anyways, I know it's alot of questions. So, please answer them if you have the time and are willing to help. >>>

Hope these help. If you are interested in more info. or discussion about the form please check my forum (click the link on my signature below).

Mantis108
northernJump
11-29-2002, 01:24 PM
there is a video available of the lohan form. See http://www.mantiskungfu.com/video.html and scroll down to TAPE 10 - LAW HON GUNG. I haven't actually seen this one but I've heard that its quite good. It has some iron palm techniques also

btw what is the name of the book you are learning from ?
mantis108
11-29-2002, 01:40 PM
<<<Very good observation! The version that I learned form Tainan Mantis (a member here) does do this road as reverse push up. Rather it is kind of a bridge. The benefit of this road includes building strength (as seem in the book) and getting out of a Chin Na situation (as fighting form - Tainan Mantis' version). >>>

it should be "Very good observation! The version that I learned form Tainan Mantis (a member here) doesn't do this road as reverse push up. Rather it is kind of a bridge. The benefit of this road includes building strength (as seem in the book) and getting out of a Chin Na situation (as fighting form - Tainan Mantis' version). "
WanderingMonk
11-29-2002, 06:15 PM
To northernJump

Thanks, I'll look into the video. The book I have is a Chinese book published in Hong Kong and Taiwan around 1960s or 70s.
Its title translated to "18 roads of lohan gong" by Huang Han Xun. I think it is out of print.

To Mantis108



>>Not having an instructor is quite limiting in learning the nuance of the form. But I suppose you will have to make do it what you've got. Remember Kung Fu is about details and every detail counts.


Well, a teacher at where I live is kinda hard to find.



>>I have seen it done in different flavours. It depends on the style and the teacher. BTW, 18 Lohan is not exclusive to Mantis but it's associated with mantis largely due to the book.


Yes, I seen it listed as one of the 72 secret arts of Shaolin. But, I thought since it is in the N. Mantis cirriculum, I have a better chance of getting an answer. If I ask this question in a general shaolin group, I might get a lot of "huh?"



>>There are a few
3) Combat applications - Self defense oriented


I have problem seeing the combat application of the form (taking the form and fight with it if that's what you mean). When doing this gong slow, it does make me think about the body mechanics and how to generate power.



>>That's interesting, the version (by Wong Hon Fun) that I have don't seem to have that. Would you mind elaborating this?


I think I have the same book (author of my book is pronounced Huang Han Xun in Mandrian. I am not good with cantonese pronounciation, so I am not sure).

After checking the book on hand, I stand corrected, only some roads mentions merdians.

In the tenth road (Green Dragon Wag its Tail), he quote the original text (Big 5 Text ahead):
10 青龍擺尾 ... 尾閭一舉存心口 ...
(尾閭) is an accupucture point.

In the 13th road Tiger Jump onto Man's Body
13 虎奔人身
提起湧泉蹬腳心﹐。。。挽住尾閭始分金。
湧泉 and 尾閭 accuputure points.

In the 17th road General Zhang presents Robe
17。張遼獻袍
...挺挺湧泉轉尾閭﹐丹田閉住一口氣﹐湧開兩腎串後脊﹐氣行血足功成滿 ...
Once again, it mentions 湧泉 and 尾閭. It also says where the qi is suppose to flow.

My theory is that lohan gong was part of buddhist meditions adapted for martial combat. The original practioner selected the exercises which strengthen certain part of the body which he deem important for combat.



>>The version that I learned form Tainan Mantis (a member here) does not do this road as reverse push up. Rather it is kind of a bridge. The benefit of this road includes building strength (as seem in the book) and getting out of a Chin Na situation (as fighting form - Tainan Mantis' version).


Do you mean that your school teach the student just stay in that posture? Do you do anything else with that posture? I'll try it that way to see if I notice any benefit.




>>Hope these help. If you are interested in more info. or discussion about the form please check my forum (click the link on my signature below).


Thanks, it was helpful. It does clear up some nagging questions.

Wandering Monk
mantis108
11-29-2002, 07:58 PM
Hi Wandering Monk,

To Mantis108

<<<Well, a teacher at where I live is kinda hard to find. >>>

I hear you but a form like that really needs a good instructor to work with you.


<<<quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>I have seen it done in different flavours. It depends on the style and the teacher. BTW, 18 Lohan is not exclusive to Mantis but it's associated with mantis largely due to the book.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes, I seen it listed as one of the 72 secret arts of Shaolin. But, I thought since it is in the N. Mantis cirriculum, I have a better chance of getting an answer. If I ask this question in a general shaolin group, I might get a lot of "huh?" >>>

Well... Personally, I don't buy any Shaolin secrets any more. But there are people who swear by it.

<<<I have problem seeing the combat application of the form (taking the form and fight with it if that's what you mean). When doing this gong slow, it does make me think about the body mechanics and how to generate power.>>>

With all due respect, that's why you'll need a teacher to show you. As Tainan Mantis showed me, there are some fasinating applications as well as 2 men practices. It is one of the most mind boggling CMA stuff, I have ever seen.

<<<I think I have the same book (author of my book is pronounced Huang Han Xun in Mandrian. I am not good with cantonese pronounciation, so I am not sure).

After checking the book on hand, I stand corrected, only some roads mentions merdians.>>>

Okay, we have the same version then.

<<<In the tenth road (Green Dragon Wag its Tail), he quote the original text (Big 5 Text ahead):
10 青龍擺尾 ... 尾閭一舉存心口 ...
(尾閭 is an accupucture point.>>>

Actually, Meilu is a crossing/passage. The acupoint is CheungChang (?)

<<<In the 13th road Tiger Jump onto Man's Body
13 虎奔人身
提起湧泉蹬腳心﹐。。。挽住尾閭始分金。
湧泉 and 尾閭 accuputure points.

In the 17th road General Zhang presents Robe
17。張遼獻袍
...挺挺湧泉轉尾閭﹐丹田閉住一口氣﹐湧開兩腎串後脊﹐氣行血足功成滿 ...
Once again, it mentions 湧泉 and 尾閭. It also says where the qi is suppose to flow.>>>

Thanks for typing in the Chinese. :) To be honest, my impression is that the texts are more general then specific about how things are done.

<<<My theory is that lohan gong was part of buddhist meditions adapted for martial combat. The original practioner selected the exercises which strengthen certain part of the body which he deem important for combat. >>>

Well IMHO this is one of the rare forms that one form does it all (almost). Again it depends on the style and the teacher.


<<<Do you mean that your school teach the student just stay in that posture? Do you do anything else with that posture? I'll try it that way to see if I notice any benefit.>>>

Kind of but you will have to see the flow of the form.

<<<Thanks, it was helpful. It does clear up some nagging questions.>>>

You are most welcome. Glad that it helps. :)

Regards

Mantis108
Tainan Mantis
11-30-2002, 08:21 AM
Hi Folks,
I got the Jon Funk video you are reffering to. I was extremely disapointed...
-It only includes several roads from the beginning of the form.
-No dynamic tension.
-Why should we practice this form?
-This is not any where close to the iron palm technique described by WHF and he dates to old manuscripts.
In fact it is safe to say that there is no relation between Jon Funk's and WHF's iron Palm technique whatsoever.

Where did Luo Guangyu learn this form? His kung fu brothers don't seem to know this form. He is the only one of that school who knows it I have heard.
My version came to Taiwan from Guangdong and the Zi Ran school of fighting.

Wandering Monk,
If you read Chinese well I think that you will be able to learn the form from WHF's descriptions as they are extremely clear, good luck to you.

About 72 secret arts of Shaolin. What is the oldest version of this book? I haven't seen anything like this in any old Shaolin manuscripts from the Ching or Ming.
Like Mantis108 I am suspicous.

The original 18 lohan book is by Sheng Hsiao Dao Ren, it dates to the 1700's. WHF doesn't put the full text in his republished version.

Sheng Hsiao also has some manuscripts with Mantis forms as well as descriptions of how to use the techniques. He also includes the underlying theory that PM fighting is based on.

Applications of 18 Lohan are unlike any other 7* form as you use the short parts of your body to strike such as..
chest, ribs, butt, elbows, back, shoulder etc.
In PM these are all described as different "elbows". In other old Shaolin manuscripts they are called 8 sharp points, but only in PM are they called elbows, hence the term 8 elbows which mostly aren't really elbows at all.

The moves can't be applied by themself. You must already be understanding the theory of the 12 soft and its non stop application with your partner.
This is also detailed by Sheng Shiao.

The form also includes locks, throws and escapes from throws.
As a whole the form is slow, but mixed in are "immediate fast points".

Several points in the original manuscript describe in a poetic way how to go fast or use power.
Look at the 5th and 6th roads for an example of this.

The backbend...
inhale
Lean backwards and put your hands on the floor behind you.
Exhale as you come up.

The inhalations are similar to how a cat stretches when it wakes up.
There are also multiple inhalations.
-Inhale in a posture, adjust posture inhale again etc.

From my research this form is the first to combine 18 Lohan with MA .
No old manuscripts from Shaolin that I have found mention it until this one.

18 Lohan and Yoga.
Like Yoga asanas this form also affects the internal organs, glands and mind.
WanderingMonk
11-30-2002, 10:00 AM
Hello Tainan Mantis,


Originally posted by Tainan Mantis

I got the Jon Funk video you are reffering to. I was extremely disapointed...


Thanks. Base on the review, it doesn't seem to worth paying for it.



Wandering Monk,
If you read Chinese well I think that you will be able to learn the form from WHF's descriptions as they are extremely clear, good luck to you.


I can read chinese but it is getting a bit rusty. The WHF's instruction on how to perform the form is clear. I was trying to get some help getting a deeper understanding of the body mechanics. I am basically using this form to develop more explosive power.



About 72 secret arts of Shaolin. What is the oldest version of this book? I haven't seen anything like this in any old Shaolin manuscripts from the Ching or Ming.
Like Mantis108 I am suspicous.


I seem to have confuse you guys with my remark about the 72 secret arts of Shaolin. I did some search a while back trying to dig up more materials on lohan gong. One of the web site that I went to gave a list of the "Official 72 arts of Shaolin" as recognized by Beijing's Sports Research Org. They are as follows (big 5 text):

少林七十二藝目錄

(摘自 德虔 素法 勤炎 等編著 "少林正宗七十二藝"北京體育學院出版社)

１．鐵臂功　２．排打功　３．鐵掃帚功　４．足射功　５．腿踢功 ６．銅砂掌　７．蛇行朮（蜈蚣跳）８．提千斤　９．羅漢功 ....

With Lohan gong listed as No. 9. So, I concluded it originated from Shaolin. Anyways, I didn't clarify the context of my usage of the word, "secret". I used to read JingYong's novel, and I am accustom to referring to 72 Shaolin arts as 72 secrets arts. Everybody knows the true secret of Shaolin is to "work harder and train harder". :)



Sheng Hsiao also has some manuscripts with Mantis forms as well as descriptions of how to use the techniques. He also includes the underlying theory that PM fighting is based on.

....

In PM these are all described as different "elbows". In other old Shaolin manuscripts they are called 8 sharp points, but only in PM are they called elbows, hence the term 8 elbows which mostly aren't really elbows at all.
...


I am not really a PM practioner. So, these principles don't really seem clear at this point. But, you have given me some pointers to concentrate on during my training.



Several points in the original manuscript describe in a poetic way how to go fast or use power.
Look at the 5th and 6th roads for an example of this.


I'll go back and re-read it.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.


Wandering Monk
WanderingMonk
11-30-2002, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Tainan Mantis

About 72 secret arts of Shaolin. What is the oldest version of this book? I haven't seen anything like this in any old Shaolin manuscripts from the Ching or Ming.
Like Mantis108 I am suspicous.


Well, I don't know if it is included in this book, "The 72 Arts of Shaolin". But, if "lohan gong" was from Shaolin, I think it would be included in this book.

http://www.lionbooks.com.tw/search/Detail.php?id=A-C014

This is a re-print of an out-of-print book from 1934. The author was a student of the Shaolin's Chief Abbot. The book was their collaboration to spread CMA to strengthen the Chinese people during the anti-Japanese resistence period. The book store is in Taipei. If you are free on the weekend, maybe you might want to take a train trip up to Taipei and check it out yourself. I read this book is a great reference (I have another one of his book, it was pretty good). Or maybe you already have it.

Anyways, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Wandering Monk
Shaolin Master
11-30-2002, 09:18 PM
The Luohan Gong in the '72 Arts of Shaolin" refers to a different method altogether it is the training of sight and sensitivity.

The Luohan Gong of Tang Lang is named 'Luohan Xing Gong' in the shaolin encyclopedia.
NoSecrets
12-05-2002, 04:10 PM
All the answers are in your questions.