Cma Nhb

[madlilpimp]

Hey guys
i was looking at the rules for most no holds barred tournaments. Then i got the idea to make up rules of my own for a tournament that would be favourable to chinese martial arts with alot more action goin goin on.

If its too lengthy just read article 5, 7 and 8.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My fighting tournament official rules
Article1
All bouts will be heldin an approved ring or cage

Article2
Compulsory equipment: competitors must wear a groin guard, gum shieled and gloves
All competitors will wear specially designed protective goggles.
Clothing: competitors can wear any of the following vale tudo or wrestling shorts, GI, kickboxing trousers or thai boxing shorts.
No jewellery or other pieces of body adornment are allowed.
Neoprene or elastic joint supports may be worn.
All footwear is prohibited.
The referee will check all supports and clothing.

Article3
Weight Categories
Featherweights - Up to 144.9 lbs. (up to 65.9 kg)
Lightweights - Up to 154.9 lbs. (up to 70.3 kg.)
Welterweights - 155 - 169.9 lbs. (70.3 - 77.1 kg)
Middleweights - 170 - 184.9 lbs. (77.1 - 83.9 kg)
Heavyweights - 185 - 204.9 lbs. (92.9 -83.9 kg.)
SuperHeavyweights - 205 lbs. and up (93 kg and up)
All weigh ins will be conductedthe day or the day before the fight.

Article4
Competitors must not apply any substances to their bodies including oils, vaseline creams, muscle rubs, hair products etc.
The use of steroids is prohibited.

Article5
Duration of rounds: matches are held over 5 two minutes rounds, with a 1 minute break between rounds.
Special matches can be held over more rounds.

Article6
Ways to end a fight
Knockout
An opponent is knocked unconcious. The three knock down rulelapplies.
Submission
A fighter taps with his hand or foot to signal his surrender. A fighter can also submit verbally.
Corner throws in towel
**There will be special rules matches where grappling will be allowed, however you wil not be able to win by submission you will have to win either by knockout or points.

Referee Stopage
When a fighter is unable to defend himself or is being dominated. The referee has the power to stop the fight at any time.
End of regulation time
The fight will be decided by the 3 judges.
Doctor Stoppage
Disqualification

Article7
Illegal techniques: the following are illegal
1 Strikes to the groin
2 No fishhooking to the mouth
3 No hair pulling
4 No spitting
5 No bitting
6 No ear pulling
7 No twsiting of the neck or head.

Article8
All techniques and strikes that are not mentioned in article 7 are legal.
This includes joint strikes, strikes to the back of the head, strikes to the neck, knees and kicks to a downed opponent, use of elbows, all takedowns and throws allowed, submission holds, small joint manipulation, head butts etc

Article9
Rules
All matches are full contact
the referee can restart the action from standing position
The referees instructions must be adhered to at all times
the referee can disqualify a fighter
The referee can stop a match at any timne to pause the action
All decisions are final
Gum shields must remain in the mouth at all times
All competitors must have reasonably short toe and fingernails.
The referee can stop a fight if he feels a fighter is taking too much damage
There will be a doctor accompanied ny nursres for every fight.

Article9
judges scoring
judges will score according to the following criteria
Skill in technique
Striking offence and defence
Grappling offence and defence
Consistency
Strength and Stamina
Each round will be scored using the 10 point Must system of scoring.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[yenhoi]

Article 7 seems to take all of CMA's teeth away, how is this favorable? :D

[Xebsball]

"Article1
All bouts will be heldin an approved ring or cage"

Since its a CMA thing, should be in a Lei Tai.


"Article2
Compulsory equipment: competitors must wear a groin guard, gum shieled and gloves"

Why gloves if CMA was mostly developed in a context of bare hands?

"Clothing: competitors can wear any of the following vale tudo or wrestling shorts, GI, kickboxing trousers or thai boxing shorts."

Why cant i wear silk pijamas??

"All footwear is prohibited."

I train with shoes, why should i remove them to fight??

[madlilpimp]

Well the rounds are short and fast so wouldnt be practical to grapple. Also you can strike to the back of the head and kick/punch/elbow a downed opponent so it wouldnt be a good idea to be on the ground.

[Souljah]

i'd say you have too much time on your hands.....:D :cool: :D

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by madlilpimp
Well the rounds are short and fast so wouldnt be practical to grapple.

If it wouldn't be 'practical' to grapple, why bother making it illegal? If it's not practical, fighters won't do it, because the ones that do will get beaten.

[Chang Style Novice]

This thread got me to thinkin' (dangerous, so stand back.)

In a lot of the cma vs. mma threads, the idea has been bandied about that for cma guys to successfully ocmpete in the mma format, they'd have to alter their training to the degree that they'd essentially no longer be cma fighters, but mma fighters. So, what happens if we turn that idea on its head?

To wit: suppose John Marsh or Carlos Newton or somebody got it into their head to compete in San Shou? Would they be alright the way they are, or would they have to change their training to the degree that they'd essentially no longer be mma guys but san shou guys? Regardless of your conclusion in reference to this question, what further implications does your conclusion have with respect to the differences (technical and utile) of san shou (which for the sake of arguement we will here consider to be the 'ideal' fighting form of cma) and mma?

I hope that last paragraph wasn't too convoluted to understand.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
This thread got me to thinkin' (dangerous, so stand back.)

In a lot of the cma vs. mma threads, the idea has been bandied about that for cma guys to successfully ocmpete in the mma format, they'd have to alter their training to the degree that they'd essentially no longer be cma fighters, but mma fighters.

I don't know that that's been said all that often. Certainly, I wouldn't say it.

MMA is a format, not a style. When someone asks me what I study, I don't say "mixed martial arts", I say "I study catch wrestling, and I box a little."

A dedicated CMA practitioner could, indeed, enter a MMA competition and do well. First, they would have to A) learn to defend against a takedown, and B) learn to escape from inferior positions on the ground, in order to stand back up.

In order to really do A&B, he'd have to train with practitioners of other styles. Because in order to learn to defend against a takedown and escape from inferior positions on the ground, you have to train it with someone who's good at takedowns, and good at maintaining position on the ground. And I don't think there are any CMA styles that are good at either of those things (possibly Shuia Chiao in the case of takedowns.) But just because he trains /with/ Judoka or BJJers, doesn't mean he's training those arts. Sure, some people would say "Oh, he trained at that gym where BJJers hang out, he's a MMA" but those are the same retards who chant "Jiu-Jit-su!" when Vitor Belfort knocks a guy out without ever going to the ground.

If a CMA practitioner entered a MMA event, he'd be a MMA competitor. There's no such thing as a MMA practitioner. Just guys who study Muay Thai and BJJ, or wrestling and boxing, or kickboxing and Judo, or whatever.


I don't know enough about San Shou to address the rest of the question.

[Chang Style Novice]

Hmmm...okay, so you're coming from a different perspective than I described above. Fair enough. I think that good Shuai Chiao would probably be sufficient to defend a lot of takedowns (but don't really know for sure, either.) And you make an interesting - although probably debatable - point about the difference between a practitioner and a competitor as it relates to the difference between training and sport.

In fact, I bet we get some debate on that difference later on in this thread, considering it's one of the main obsessions of this forum!

So, in regards to the other point you make - our hypothetical cma practitioner would have to be able to defend from an inferior position on the ground - we're left with the question of whether this knowledge (which I think most of us agree is not part of any known cma curriculuum) is enough to automatically render an individual an mmartist instead of a pure cmartist.

And of course, the question of whether such a distinction matters.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Hmmm...okay, so you're coming from a different perspective than I described above. Fair enough.

I think most people who really train seriously would have a similar perspective... that's just my opinion, though, and I might be wrong. Honestly, just about every style has its Raleks.



I think that good Shuai Chiao would probably be sufficient to defend a lot of takedowns (but don't really know for sure, either.)

I don't know enough about Shuai Chiao; all I've really seen of it is a few video clips. I do know that being practiced in defending against Judo throws doesn't prepare you for, say, a double-leg takedown; I train with Judo guys occasionally. I don't know whether SC incorporates a style of takedown/throw that would be sufficiently analogous to things like that to learn to defend against them. Sevenstar, RD, WD? Any insight?


In fact, I bet we get some debate on that difference later on in this thread, considering it's one of the main obsessions of this forum!

Well, if I'm not at the gym, I might as well be sitting around *****ing about semantics. :D


So, in regards to the other point you make - our hypothetical cma practitioner would have to be able to defend from an inferior position on the ground - we're left with the question of whether this knowledge (which I think most of us agree is not part of any known cma curriculuum) is enough to automatically render an individual an mmartist instead of a pure cmartist.

And of course, the question of whether such a distinction matters.

It doesn't to me. I mean, really, is saying "I won this tournament and I never studied more than one art!" really that big of a point of pride? I study catch wrestling. If and when I compete in MMA formats, I'm going to put some time in boxing and other striking styles, to get myself used to it. I don't consider that a knock on either myself or catch wrestling; it's being realistic in that styles have strengths and weaknesses.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, I tend to think that purity is a load of horsecr@p. There's no such thing as purity in the phenomenological world. It's only an ideal, in the sense that the ideal is merely a mental construct.

Just because you do a little (let's say) bjj to fill in the gaps left by your (let's say) wing chin, doesn't mean that you're not doing wing chun anymore.

See the parable of the elephant for more details.

[SevenStar]

hey! It doesn't say no eye gouging!! CMA will dominate in this format!!! :D

There's really no need for a format change, IMO. CMA who train for MMA could do fine in it. You just have to find someone who is 1. willing to train VERY hard and
2. willing to change the format in which they train. Note that this doesn't mean that they can't apply their principles and merely "revert to kickboxing" as so many people on this forum put it. It means that they will be applying their principles for use with MMA rules.

Shuai Chiao does have it's own version of the double leg. It's quite different from the versions seen in bjj and judo though, so SC guys would be wise to train with bjj guys to experience their single/double leg takedowns.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Shuai Chiao does have it's own version of the double leg. It's quite different from the versions seen in bjj and judo though, so SC guys would be wise to train with bjj guys to experience their single/double leg takedowns.

Or, better, wrestlers. :D :D :D


Random style-pride aside, though, what does a SC-style double-leg look like? And does how SC players are taught to deal with it resemble the sprawl, or is it something different?

[SevenStar]

From what I know of it (I don't use it much, so maybe WD , MonkeySlapToo, neptunesfall or GGL can add more, but the SC double leg doesn't require you to step as deep into the opponent to use it, as the head is used as the fulcurm point to make your opponent fall. with the neck just left out like that, it seems like it would leave you wide open for a guillotine.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by FatherDog


In order to really do A&B, he'd have to train with practitioners of other styles. Because in order to learn to defend against a takedown and escape from inferior positions on the ground, you have to train it with someone who's good at takedowns, and good at maintaining position on the ground. And I don't think there are any CMA styles that are good at either of those things (possibly Shuia Chiao in the case of takedowns.)



Actually many chinese martial arts have a wrestling component, shuia chiao just happens to be centered around wrestling. For example here is a link to a tai-chi practitioner performing a takedown similiar to one in greco roman wrestling.

[Le nOObi]

whoops forgot the link here it is
http://www.shenwu.com/yangtchnq.htm

[Chang Style Novice]

That "Fireman's Carry" application of "Snake Crawls on the Ground" is hardly similar at all to a double leg, though. Also, a crafty opponent can use the opportunity to go for a choke. It really seems to be all about the 'shoot' for most wrestling takedowns, from what little I know.

Which isn't to say that a drop onto the head from shoulder height like that isn't going to make someone wish they'd never been born, if it gets off. And if you still have wrist control as they go down, the droppee is even more hosed.

[SevenStar]

They do, but they don't focus on it. Alot of Japanese styles have it also, but it's not a focus. If you want to work grappling, you need to train with styles that focus on it.

Most grappling will probably look very similar among styles, as there are really only so many ways to manipulate the body. The fireman's carry you posted is also in judo - kata guruma.

Here's one that looks like the greco version:

http://www.santanijudo.com/Dropkataguruma2.MOV

this one is done standing, like the taiji one you posted:

http://www.santanijudo.com/kataguruma2.MOV


Don't many forms of taiji have a shuai chiao influence?

[SevenStar]

I was looking at the taiji clip again - it looks like the guy getting thrown is off balanced backwards instead of forwards - seems like that would make the technique harder to pull off.

[Stacey]

in 8 step we call this chuan dang

First priority is standing and its done by getting the attention up high and drawing them out. If they are too heavy, the back leg drops flat and iti s done in the way of the judo video.


However, our snake creeps down application is not chuan dang. Its much more like wrestling.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar
From what I know of it (I don't use it much, so maybe WD , MonkeySlapToo, neptunesfall or GGL can add more, but the SC double leg doesn't require you to step as deep into the opponent to use it, as the head is used as the fulcurm point to make your opponent fall. with the neck just left out like that, it seems like it would leave you wide open for a guillotine.

Actually, the double-leg as I was taught does use the head as a fulcum point.

http://www.catchwrestle.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139

You can see in the pictures how his head, with his body and leg behind it, drive to the right, while his arms sweep the legs to the left.

Having tried numerous times to get the guillotine off of a successful sprawl, I can tell you that using the head in this way doesn't leave you wide open... mainly because the neck is tucked close against the opponent's body.

[FatherDog]

The fireman's carry has a similar penetration step to the double-leg, but the mechanics of the two are very different.

Also, while an excellent takedown in greco or freestyle, I wouldn't bet on using a fireman's carry in a submission or MMA format. If the guy closes his legs on your arm, you'll wind up going down with him, and he'll have control of at least one of your arms. Anyone who saw Gary Goodridge's first fight in UFC 1 can look at that as an excellent reason why that's a very, very bad thing.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FatherDog


Actually, the double-leg as I was taught does use the head as a fulcum point.

http://www.catchwrestle.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139

You can see in the pictures how his head, with his body and leg behind it, drive to the right, while his arms sweep the legs to the left.

Having tried numerous times to get the guillotine off of a successful sprawl, I can tell you that using the head in this way doesn't leave you wide open... mainly because the neck is tucked close against the opponent's body.

Interesting! I have to sign up for that forum to get to the tread though - I'm getting ready to do that now. I learned something new today (assuming that it is true) - Abe Lincoln was a catch wrestler.

[Chang Style Novice]

Seven

I'm pretty sure all taichi has a shuai chiao influence, to varying degrees, since SC is so old. And naturally, Chang style Taichi is brimming over with SC.

[SevenStar]

I thought you joined - I noticed someone named CSN that joined today. I get the same message you do - you have to wait until you get the email, I think.

[Chang Style Novice]

me, too, and I deleted my previous post. I didn't pay enough attention to the registration message and didn't go to my email.

[neptunesfall]

in shuai chiao, the firemans carry type throw is done in conjunction with a strike to the groin. done properly, the chance of someone closing their legs are slim.
as for the double leg (embracing is the throw that's being referred to, i believe), the head is held against the opponents body; little or no chance of a choke being applied. the same goes for the single leg; a variation on embracing or shaving.

[SevenStar]

yeah, it's held against the opponent's body - but the neck is exposed some, if we are talking about the same technique.

[neptunesfall]

i joined that forum, it seems pretty cool.

if embracing is done from the front, the neck is definitely exposed, no question. if done from the side or rear gates, there's no exposure.
from the side, the shoulder is flush against their body, with the head against the back...might catch an elbow to the shoulder, but thats it.
done from rear gate, the head and neck are flush to the opponents back, no chance of getting hit.
personally i prefer embracing from the rear gate.

[Chang Style Novice]

personally i prefer embracing from the rear gate

Save it for Yahoo! adult chat, you sicko! :p

[neptunesfall]

LOL
i said rear gate, not back door!

[SevenStar]

rear gate? Is that what you kids are calling it nowadays? :D:D

[neptunesfall]

hey i don't even watch queer as folk!

[SevenStar]

Have you ever worn Secret?

[neptunesfall]

no, i can say for sure that i haven't.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by neptunesfall
i joined that forum, it seems pretty cool.

It's a pretty informative place.



if embracing is done from the front, the neck is definitely exposed, no question. if done from the side or rear gates, there's no exposure.
from the side, the shoulder is flush against their body, with the head against the back...might catch an elbow to the shoulder, but thats it.
done from rear gate, the head and neck are flush to the opponents back, no chance of getting hit.

As I was taught, a shoot from the front doesn't go straight in to the front. You penetration step into the opponent, then bring the other leg up and "turn the corner". So in a sense, the double-leg as I was taught goes from the front gate to the side gate (as you describe the side gate position, that is).

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by SevenStar
They do, but they don't focus on it. Alot of Japanese styles have it also, but it's not a focus. If you want to work grappling, you need to train with styles that focus on it.


In my opinion this is an unfair generalization. Stand up grappling is very important to practictioners of many chinese styles for instance the taichi fighter Chen Zhaojia used a throw to K.O. muaythai fighter montong.

[neptunesfall]

mmm...he said Japanese, not Chinese.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by neptunesfall
mmm...he said Japanese, not Chinese. He said " japanese styles have it also meaning that there are
japanese styles AND chinese styles
whichhave some grappling in them but do not focus on it. Also in context it was a reply to a post a made about the fact that there are chinese styles besides shoy chiao that have alot of grappling.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


In my opinion this is an unfair generalization. Stand up grappling is very important to practictioners of many chinese styles for instance the taichi fighter Chen Zhaojia used a throw to K.O. muaythai fighter montong.

I'll agree. It was unfair. When you say "Many styles have a wrestling component" I'm thinking more along the lines of styles that have it, but don't focus on it. since it's "a component" that tells me that grappling is only a portion of their training. If you check the style out and see that grappling is a major component, then sure, train with them. Some TKD schools teach throws, but if I want to perfect my throwing, I'm not going there.

[SevenStar]

On a side note, I'm not sure about the accuracy of that fight. There was a debate about it on KFO a while back (like a year ago) - matter of factly, I'm the one that brought up the Chen Zhaojia fight, if I remember correctly. But it was pointed out that there are sites that say he didn't win ans that he was KOed by knees in the first round. Here's one of them:

http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index6d.htm

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

maybe its just cause im small and have had people try to pick me up a lot, but i can think of a bunch of things to do when up on someones shoulders like that. i think the fireman's carry thing is way more risk than reward.

[SevenStar]

I doubt I'd actually attempt it in a fight, but I've had pretty good success in randori with it. I do the crouching version. They are only on my shoulders for a few seconds, and they are being rolled forward, in addition to me having control of one of their arms. After it's done, you can turn over and maintain control of them. Out of curiousity, what would you do in the few second that you are in the air?

[Braden]

Crouching fireman's carry is great counter-grappling IMHO. Haven't read the thread... just waiting for an America's Army round to finish. ;)

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by SevenStar
On a side note, I'm not sure about the accuracy of that fight. There was a debate about it on KFO a while back (like a year ago) - matter of factly, I'm the one that brought up the Chen Zhaojia fight, if I remember correctly. But it was pointed out that there are sites that say he didn't win ans that he was KOed by knees in the first round. Here's one of them:

http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/index6d.htm

I havent seen the fight myself to tell the truth. I believe the claims that montong was K.O.ed via throw since i have heard it posted by people like Lkfmdc who is no doubt better educated on the history of muaythai vs. kungfu then that crane69 guy is. maybe you should send Lkfmdc a private message.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"Out of curiousity, what would you do in the few second that you are in the air?"

well i could throw a knee to their very vulnerable head, or even a knee/elbow combo if they do not have good control of my arm. there are numerous chokes that could be thrown in with the quickness . ... armbars . ..

what i would do is simply clench to whatever was available and take them down with me. i'm sorry i have no name or detailed description for this technique, but i find it to work more often than not when people try to lift me that high off the ground. a second is more than enough time to buck them off balance and bring them down.

im not saying that it can't work, or even that it cant work on me, but even if it's pulled off successfully it's not going to do much to someone who knows how to fall. of course immediately dropping a knee on their head would be pretty cool, but im not sure this throw is the most efficient setup for knee stomps. also, if the guy is a good grappler he's gonna own me on the ground even if i do bring him down with me, but again i think there are easier and safer ways to take me down.

my point is simply that i dont see the point. im not saying it's wrong, just that i dont understand what the reward is for the risk.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
well i could throw a knee to their very vulnerable head, or even a knee/elbow combo if they do not have good control of my arm. there are numerous chokes that could be thrown in with the quickness . ... armbars . ..

I've actually felt the knee - it doesn't hurt. Probably because they are off the ground and don't have anything to drive off of. If they can knee you before you get them off the ground though, it would be lights out. you can't choke because

1. I have your arm
2. my neck is pressed against your body - the same side of the arm I'm holding - there's no possible way your other arm can get to it.

I can see an armbar possibility there, but you'd have to be super fast to get it, I think.

what i would do is simply clench to whatever was available and take them down with me. i'm sorry i have no name or detailed description for this technique, but i find it to work more often than not when people try to lift me that high off the ground. a second is more than enough time to buck them off balance and bring them down.

In the crouching version, I want to be on the ground with you, so that I can control you.

im not saying that it can't work, or even that it cant work on me, but even if it's pulled off successfully it's not going to do much to someone who knows how to fall. of course immediately dropping a knee on their head would be pretty cool, but im not sure this throw is the most efficient setup for knee stomps.

I agree there, unless you can find some way to make him fall on his head.

my point is simply that i dont see the point. im not saying it's wrong, just that i dont understand what the reward is for the risk.

From a competition perspective, the point is you can use it as a counter. If someone is pushing forward on you, then you already have his momentum going forward - he just did the off-balancing for you. when you drop and slip under him, his own momentum plus your pull on his arm has him moving forward. Now you merely dump him on his back, maintain your hold on him, then get into a position of control.

On the street, if you tried the standing version, even if it didn't do any damage, the mere thought of getting thrown like that may shake him up enough for you do either do something else to him or to run away.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

good points seven. i can see what you're saying about the knee but i also think that there's a possibility of it hurting pretty good if it caught you in the temple. then again maybe not cause your right about not having anything to drive off of. with the chokes i meant if they didnt have good control of the arm, but if we are discussing a technique we should be assuming that its actually being executed properly .. .. my bad. even with poor arm control i can see how a choke would be hard to pull off. like i said though. .. these were just ideas.

in a competition i can completely see the validity of this technique. i also agree that its far less risky and much more useful from the crouching position. however, i still feel its far to risky for the street. i have never been one to talk like a badass on here, but even if someone dumps me from a standing position like that it's not going to stop me. not on concrete and not on broken glass unless it punctures something vital. now if you could dump them on their head like you were saying that would be a completely differant story.

[SevenStar]

yeah, I agree there - it's not something i'd try to use in the street.