View Full Version : Hung Gar "Jong Da Kuen" , "5Pattern" and Fong Sai Yuk

07-20-2000, 08:07 PM

Regarding forms of Hung Gar i recently saw a form called "Jong Da Kuen" whic i was told was an original Hung Gar form. This form is very different from the forms of Hung Gar practiced by most lineages, the stances are not too low, hand movments are short and powerfull and done with very little foot work. Has anyone else seen this form?

Not related to the question above but just out of curiosity Has anyone seen a book called 5 pattern Hung Kuen written by Leung Ting. In this book it talks about a version/lineage of hung Gar i have not heard of before. I was not aware that Fong Sai Yuk trained in Hung Gar. Does anyone know anything about this as well as the Hung Gar described in this book.
The book is not very clear about the connection of this lineage of hung gar to Hung Hei Gwun or for that matter about anything else.

Regarding the form 5 pattern Hung Kuen, it is very diffrent from the forms of Hung Gar practiced today. Also diffrent than the 5 pattern form i have seen. I was told that a very old 5 pattern(animal form did exist but i dont know if it is the same as the one described in this book.

It also talks about grandmaster Yuen Yik Kai. Does anyone know anything about him?

Paul Skrypichayko
07-20-2000, 11:57 PM
Hi Tiger,

I've never heard of Jong Da Kuen. I know that lots of southern shaolin people in south east asia call their art "hung gar" because hung gar and southern shaolin are pretty much the same thing. Many people, especially in Singapore and Malaysia, tend to get a little creative with their forms and their history. You have all kinds of unusual and new stuff comming up.

5 pattern / 5 animal form are relatively new things to hung gar, made up within the last 50 or 60 years. I think I saw the book in a Vancouver bookstore, along with the 10 pattern hung kuen of Kwan Tak Hing (also written by Leung Ting).

Fong Sai Yuk is mostly made popular by the movies, but he was a real person, and was involved with many of the famous events at the southern shaolin temple. Fong Sai Yuk learned from the famous master, Ji Sim Sin Si, so you could say he was sidai to Hung Hei Guen. Ji Sim was famous because of his expertise in southern shaolin, he was the master of Ng Mui, Hung Hei Guen, Fong Sai Yuk, and dozens of other famous students, he developed the Luk Dim Boon Kwun, and was involved with the revolutionary activities.

When shaolin went underground around 1800, they (Ji Sim and students) changed the name to Hung Gar, after one of their top students, Hung Hei Guen. Ji Sim taught the core teachings to Hung Hei Guen, so the names hung gar and nam siu lum (southern shaolin) are synonymous. This is why you have people from all styles saying that Fong Sai Yuk is hung style. This is also the reason that you have every southern village style claiming to be southern shaolin or hung gar.

Gwa Sow Chop
07-21-2000, 01:56 AM
Yes, our lineage of Sil Lum Keun does the Jong dah Keun also. It is a form that is a "staple" stance and mechanics developer. If the form you saw was done in higher stances.....not with us:-))). Although in the later part of the form there are a few sequences utilizing rapid fire hand techniques with penetrating footwork. This part stresses transitional movement and the stance becomes more of a "running horse" stance.
The total set is very long, with no repetitive movemen.
The beginning salutation is 45 movements long and all performed in a say ping mah, with only two moves in a rapid transition to a ding jee mah. The salutation contains a balance of all energies and dynamic tension, and is often performed as the first chi gung excercise of each class. The beginning is also an excelent exercise when combined with the iron rings, to develop your ging.
This set comes by way of Grandmaster Wong Cheun Yip of Fow Shek village. This was taught to his grandson Master Chan Yim Wah and passed down to us as part of our traditional training regiem.

Paul Skrypichayko
07-21-2000, 03:30 AM
GwaSowChop, when you say "Chan Yim Wah" do you mean Mark Chan in Edmonton?

If so, how's your sifu doing, and how's your school going?

07-21-2000, 04:15 AM
Thanks for the info. Paul I know what you are saying about people calling their styles Hung Gar. There is a instructor here from Malysia who also advertises classes for Hung gar and has published some articles and videos. I have never seen his stuff but from what i have read and heard it is nothing like the hung gar we know. He has a seperate form for every animal(5 animals), i know in USA Wing Lam teaches a diffrent version of Hung Gar with seperate animal forms but i dont think its the same as this guys.

I have also seen that book ten pattern HUng kuen but heard that form was created by that chinese actor who got famous playing wong fei hung over hundred films but I dont know how true this is.

Going back to 5 pattern book, it claims that this is one of the original Hung Kuen forms and goes on saying "..researches has revealed that Hung Hay Kwun's 10 pattern form was in fact a deviation of the 5 pattern system..." one question is he implying that Hung hei Gwun created a form called 10 pattern?
In this book it also states that there are 2 5 pattern forms; little 5 pattern and large 5 pattern. i dont practice the 5 animals form myself but have seen it performed many times and it is different from the one in the book.

The Jong Da Kuen i saw was not all performed in say ping ma. The main stances used were say ping and ding jee mah (both used equal amount). Hand movments were short and mostly used in a stright line without much if any circular movments. Along with this form i also saw a pole/stick form, cant remmember the name right now but it is different from the 3 pole/stick forms you normaly find in Hung Gar.

Paul Skrypichayko
07-21-2000, 04:37 AM
Tiger, one thing that can be really tricky and confusing is the way things are translated. The ten pattern phrase might mean his ten favorite techniques, or it could mean something in a the shape of the chinese character for 10 (sup jee).

Most, if not all the hung gar people on here will agree that Sup Ying Kuen is only about 100 years old, and Ng Ying Kuen is only about 50-60 years old. This puts both of them far past Hung Hei Guen's time.

Yes, there was that other book, Kwan Tak Hing's Ten Pattern Hung Kuen. Kwan Tak Hing was the famous actor, and learned a small amount of hung gar, bak hok, and maybe a few other styles. My master said he was very accurate with the bullwhip though, and a real gentleman.

Gwa Sow Chop
07-22-2000, 10:02 AM

The beginning saluteof the form is in say ping mah, except for 2 moves in ding jee mah. The rest of the form has a balance of both. The techniques of the form are quite varied, with emphasis on tiger technique....bridge breaking, cum nah, fow/chum ect. A good variety of basic/solid technique.....and that is why we use it as a beginners form;-)

You also mentioned the 5 animal set......we also do the five animal set, much differant from the usual hung 5 animal. Sounds like the system variant is closely (geographically or lineage) linked to what we do. What is the origin of the sets, who is the sifu, where do you reside???

As for the stick sets, we have many, also some that are not in the usual set lists of hung gar. Such as......
Sup but Jeung gwan (18 spear/pole)(4 sets of)
rat tail staff
Tiger tail staff
Green dragon Double/single ended pole

Ben Gash
07-30-2000, 07:10 PM
The really screwy thing about Ang Kee Kong (the guy with the strange animal sets) is that he claims that his lineage is through Wong Fei Hung!

Shaolin Master
01-24-2001, 07:39 AM
The Yuen Yik Kai school is correct in its history, the form presented though is not a form as much as short set of few techniques performed for Leung Ting, it is popular in Macau, Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong and Guangdong areas.

Though there are many styles other than popular Hung Gar that use Hung in the name. Wong Fei Hungs is definitely Hung Kuen from Luk A Choi. The Guangdong Hung Kuen is directly from Hung Hei Gun. Other Hung Kuens were usually different culminations using the hung name