Ultimate Grappling thread

[SevenStar]

There are hundreds of grappling arts with many similar techniques and priciples, and also some that may be unique to a particular style. Lets list as many as we can think of, and some of the techniques and principles that drive them.

[Chang Style Novice]

do we want to start with styles or techniques? I think it would be more edifying to go by technique.

1. shoulder throw.

Grasp opponent by wrist and elbow, turn feet to point in same direction as opponent's feet, back hips tightly against opponent's hips, move armpit of opponent's controlled arm over shoulder, take 'hop' backwards and bend at waist.

I've learned this separately in taiji and judo classes, I expect pretty much every style has it's own (minor) variation on it.

[David Jamieson]

wu ti.

anyone know anything about it?

peace

[neptunesfall]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
wu ti.


didn't he have a band in the 90's called The Blowfish?


shuai chiao shoulder throw - both hands are on opponents wrist with the outside of their elbow against the top of your shoulder

[logic]

I've never taken BJJ, but I have seen a few classes and a few practioners and it looks kinda simular to the Ne Waza that I've taken.

I like Ne Waza, it has effective chokes holds and grappling techniques.I believe it's a combo of a few styles.

History
www.jukokai.com/docs/html/teaching_grappling.html

[SevenStar]

The shoulder throw is also in shuai chiao - "Rhino gazes at the moon"

[SevenStar]

N'sF already said it - I need to start hitting the refresh button when I've been on a page for awhile!

[SevenStar]

that's exactly why I wanted this thread:

"shuai chiao shoulder throw - both hands are on opponents wrist with the outside of their elbow against the top of your shoulder"

"Grasp opponent by wrist and elbow, turn feet to point in same direction as opponent's feet, back hips tightly against opponent's hips, move armpit of opponent's controlled arm over shoulder, take 'hop' backwards and bend at waist."

It's interesting to see how different styles utilize what is basically the same technique.

[Chang Style Novice]

It looks to me like the SC version is more likely to result in a popped elbow than a throw. OUCH!

[Sharky]

I cannot contribute anything of value to this thread :(

[neptunesfall]

the elbow popping happens a split second before the throw...the safe version of this - both hands are on the opponents bicep instead of the wrist, opponents elbow is still against the top of the shoulder.

[No_Know]

It seems to be my comprehension that all techniques with the phrase/word Rhino are references to arm techniques.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, Seven's "Rhino Looks at the Moon" being a throw always confused me (although I just attributed it to a difference in usage.) Where I am, "Rhino Looks at the Moon" is a qigong posture in the 13 naughty boys. To do it, you stand with your legs crossed at the ankles, and the hand on the side of the leg that's in front grasps that leg's ankle. The other hand is held at the hip, and the eyes look at the elbow that's pointing up in the air. Now, obviously this stance has applications for a shoulder throw, but we don't use the name for the throw itself.

Neptune:

I don't understand - in the 'safe' version you have both hands on the bicep but the elbow is still on your shoulder. I can see how that would be safer, but how do you get the hand from the opposite side of the fulcrum shoulder back there? It seems like it would be coming across your face or throat - a bad position in my view. Also, with the hands on the bicep, that allows the elbow to bend so the hand can attack the face, doesn't it?

[Chang Style Novice]

the ultimate grappling defense:

Look so repulsive no-one would want to touch you.

http://cache.eonline.com/Gossip/Fashion/Joan2002/Images/love.102802.jpg

[logic]

Where the HELL did you get a picture of Raleks girlfriend?:D :p

[SevenStar]

Tai Otoshi - body drop

As your opponent steps forward with his right foot, grasp his right sleeve with your left hand and pull him forward.

Pull opponent up and forward and keep him off balance. Be sure his balance is on one foot.

As opponent leans forward, place your right foot next to his.

Throw by whipping to your left and pull your opponent down hard.

http://www.santanijudo.com/taiotoshi.MOV

[Chang Style Novice]

Hm, sounds pretty similar to "(General/Emperor Li?) Draws His Sword"

Assuming the opponent's right hand is coming at you:

grasp it at the wrist with your thumb on the bottom in an upward movement. take a cover step to the left with your right leg, and when both feet are planted, simultaneously turn around on the soles of your feet (you'll begin with legs crossed and end with them open, turning your body 180 degrees without changing your footing), pull your left hand to your left hip, and bring your right hand - which until now was probably up guarding your head from a punch from your opponent's left - down to your right side.

From Chang tai chi, and probably shuai chiao before that.

[SevenStar]

http://www.shuaichiao.org/html_files/throw_alley/throw_alley_index.htm

this version is similar, but the hands are used to off balance differently since he's not pulling a gi, and the inside leg is swept instead of the outside.

[Ford Prefect]

Roy Harris has a couple great articles on general BJJ principles on his website.

[SevenStar]

Yeah, I'vew read them several times - matter of factly, I posted a link to them here last week or so for red5angel to read, and posted them another time too. Good stuff.

[neptunesfall]

Neptune:

I don't understand - in the 'safe' version you have both hands on the bicep but the elbow is still on your shoulder. I can see how that would be safer, but how do you get the hand from the opposite side of the fulcrum shoulder back there? It seems like it would be coming across your face or throat - a bad position in my view. Also, with the hands on the bicep, that allows the elbow to bend so the hand can attack the face, doesn't it?


maybe i should change "safe version" to "competition, training and sparring" version.

[neptunesfall]

what about techniques for counter-throwing?

[SevenStar]

ttt because this oughtta be an awesome thread.


Neptune - here's one:

Tani otoshi - valley drop

http://www.santanijudo.com/Taniotoshi.MOV

This is used as a counter to various throws where the attacker has his back to you at some angle. if his back is directly to you, you can pull it off, but you have to step some. Ideally though, judo has throws (like this one) that can de done as attacking techniques or counter techniques. naturally, some throws counter certain throws better than others.

[FatherDog]

Ankle pick

From the clinch....
Grab the back of the opponent's neck with one hand (similar to one half of the Muay Thai plumb). Assuming this is the right hand, level change (ie, lower stance, drop the hips) and grab the opponent's left leg with your left hand (you should keep your right elbow glued to your body so that your level change forces his head down). Turn to the left, pulling the leg up and left with your left hand, and his head down with your right hand.

[neptunesfall]

Seven -

looks like a variation of shaving (i think you use the term shearing?).
my favorite use of shaving is to counter a hip throw.

when opponent goes to hip throw, use the arm he has control of and the opposite leg to shave the moment he puts his back to you.

[SevenStar]

What about a good ole fashioned outer reaping throw?

http://www.mararts.org/images/Video/osoto1.avi

Also, what about the strategies used to employ certain throws?

[neptunesfall]

ttt!
i can't get the avi to work, seven. stupid macintosh.

[SevenStar]

try this

http://www.suginoharyu.com/html/video/kihonwaza/o%20soto%20gari.mpg

[neptunesfall]

i like that throw - SC calls it chopping.
to set that one up, i usually make a quick yank (wrist, elbow or jacket) towards me on the side the i want to sweep, while stepping forward to cut off their angle. if the shopping sweep is unsucessful, keep your forward momentum and use the opposite leg to shave or yank them back the other way into a shin to shin sweep.

[SevenStar]

In judo, you hold downward pressure on the arm once you yank on it - you want to put your opponent's weight on that leg so that he cannot move it as you sweep him. If your attempt fails, you can follow up with a shoulder throw or sweeping hip throw.

[Ford Prefect]

Sevenstar,

I have an awesome book called "Attacking Judo" which shows the basic Judo throws and the strings together combinations based on the opponents reaction. The book helped me immensely while I was practicing Judo. You might want to check it out. I think it's less than $20.

[SevenStar]

Does Amazon have it?

[neptunesfall]

ttt
whats your favorite grappling technique(s) and what methods do you use to train it(them)?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by neptunesfall
ttt
whats your favorite grappling technique(s) and what methods do you use to train it(them)?

I'm fond of chokes and neck cranks. I train 'em by drilling them with a partner before trying to get them whilst rolling live.

I also like hip heists, because they're like asprin; you can use 'em for almost any situation. Plus, I can run through the motion of them without a partner, so I train those at home (usually in the morning before I shower).

[SevenStar]

my favorites are the inner thigh throw (uchi mata), the americana and the triangle choke (sankaku jime) I train them all by working them on an opponent. I also train uchi mata by doing the form solo and by doing static postures.


I also like ura nage (embracing, for neptune's fall)
http://www.suginoharyu.com/html/video/kihonwaza/ura%20nage.mpg

and hiza guruma
http://www.suginoharyu.com/html/video/kihonwaza/hiza%20guruma.mpg

[Water Dragon]

hmmm. sweeps and reaps 'cause I'm tall and skinny. I like standing rear nakeds and spine locking as far as na goes. I suck on the ground, so I'm still tryin to get my sweeps down :(

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
hmmm. sweeps and reaps 'cause I'm tall and skinny.

6'4" and usually between 180 and 190, here; I know what you mean. I've had some good results with kneetaps and ankle picks.



I like standing rear nakeds and spine locking as far as na goes. I suck on the ground, so I'm still tryin to get my sweeps down :(

Could you explain what you mean by spine locking?

[SevenStar]

There are throws and locks that put pressure on the spine. judo has seven such locks and a few throw that can do it. wrestling has several of these holds also. They are banned in every competition, as far as I know.

[SevenStar]

here are the judo ones - I just did a search.

ATAMA-HISIGI (Head Crush)
GYAKU-HISIGI (Reverse Crush)
KESA-GATAME-KUBI-HISIGI (Scraf Hold Neck Crush)
KUBI-HISIGI (Neck Crush)
KUZURE-KESA-KUBI-HISIGI (Broken (Variation) Scarf Hold Neck Crush)
TATE-HISIGI (Standing Neck Crush)
TOMOE-HISIGI (Rolling Neck Crush)

[Merryprankster]

Duck under to any takedown
Sweep single
Snap down
Uchi mata- Ko Uchi gari - O Uchi gari combo
Head and Arm throw to Ko Uchi gari
Wizzer grip Uchi
Guard Pull :D

Groundwork-

Armbar Triangle Omo Plata Triangle lock flow from the guard
A five sweep combo I developed from one foot in bicep, one foot in hip guard, double wrist control...
Rolling Omo Plata single leg counter.

Ground devil choke to Omo Plata combo (gi specific... Watch Flavio Cantos matches for details on choke.)

[NorthernMantis]

Hey sevenstar the mpegs where nice but why did the attacker place his arm on the defender on the uranaga one? Was he trying to grab his neck or something? I really don't know any grappling so please excuse my ingorance. Thanks in advance.:)

[neptunesfall]

what are....

hip heists?
americana?
knee taps?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by neptunesfall
what are....

hip heists?
americana?
knee taps?

Ah, the greatest barrier, to MA discussion: Vocabulary :D

A hip heist technically refers to any move in which your hips reverse facing (ie, going from crotch against the ground to crotch pointing at the ceiling). The application differs, but the movement is essientially the samefrom a wide variety of positions. Usually, one leg would go flat against the ground and be 'tucked under', while the other would push against the ground and drive the turning of the hips. Unfortunately I don't have a pictorial example. It's widely used in most styles of wrestling.

The Americana is a BJJ arm lock, usually applied from the side mount.

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/valetudo/

It is similar, but not identical, to catch wrestling's top wristlock. I believe there's a judo equivalent, but I'm not certain, since I don't really know judo (or BJJ, for that matter, but there's more pictorials of BJJ out there :D )

A knee tap is a type of takedown from the clinch. You get an underhook with one arm, and grab the side of the opponent's head with the other. Circle to the side of the opponent you have underhooked, keeping your head pressed against his shoulder. Use your other hand to press his face into the top of your head. When you've rotated a bit, level change (ie, drop your hips below his, keeping your body vertical) and drop the hand on his neck to his far knee. Shoot the arm you're underhooking him with upwards to break his balance, and simultaneously yank the far knee towards you and drive forward with your legs. If you're quick, you can often get the opponent's back from this move.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
Hey sevenstar the mpegs where nice but why did the attacker place his arm on the defender on the uranaga one? Was he trying to grab his neck or something? I really don't know any grappling so please excuse my ingorance. Thanks in advance.:)

His reach looked half done - like he was being a good uke (throwing partner) but, if they were actually doing randori and he were actually reaching, he'd being doing some type of throw requiring him to reach around or behind the neck, likely

Koshi guruma
http://www.mararts.org/images/Video/koshigur.avi

or harai goshi
http://www.santanijudo.com/Haraigoshi.MOV

In that example of harai, he's reaching around the waist, but I learned to do it with a high neck grip. Others I've randoried with do the high grip also.

[SevenStar]

Judo has the americana and the kimura, but they are both the same, as far as the name goes. They are lumped into the "bent arm lock" category - ude garami

[SevenStar]

"Armbar Triangle Omo Plata Triangle lock flow from the guard
"

I like that one too, but I do a different order of that flow. oma plata - triangle - armbar.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by SevenStar


His reach looked half done - like he was being a good uke (throwing partner) but, if they were actually doing randori and he were actually reaching, he'd being doing some type of throw requiring him to reach around or behind the neck, likely

Koshi guruma
http://www.mararts.org/images/Video/koshigur.avi

or harai goshi
http://www.santanijudo.com/Haraigoshi.MOV

In that example of harai, he's reaching around the waist, but I learned to do it with a high neck grip. Others I've randoried with do the high grip also.

Thanks a lot.:)

[Brad Souders]

I didn't read any of the posts except the first one so here is my list.

Judo - Foot Sweeps and Off balancing

BJJ - Positioning and Submissions

Wrestling - Takedowns

Sombo - Takedowns and Leg Locks

Shootfighting - Leg Locks

Dumog - Off Balancing

Small circle jujitsu/Japanese Jujitsu/Aikijujitsu/aikido - Wristlocks and Footwork


My favorite techniques are any lucky submission i can catch. The way i train them is roll, then roll some more, drill em, then roll some more. And it seems the more i do that the more "lucky" i get. Later, Brad

[SevenStar]

That's just B.S. :D

Where da heck you been, man?

His favorite technique is one I made up and told him about - I called it the SevenStar switch, but he renamed it the Souders Switch :D

[neptunesfall]

Originally posted by FatherDog
A knee tap is a type of takedown from the clinch. You get an underhook with one arm, and grab the side of the opponent's head with the other. Circle to the side of the opponent you have underhooked, keeping your head pressed against his shoulder. Use your other hand to press his face into the top of your head. When you've rotated a bit, level change (ie, drop your hips below his, keeping your body vertical) and drop the hand on his neck to his far knee. Shoot the arm you're underhooking him with upwards to break his balance, and simultaneously yank the far knee towards you and drive forward with your legs. If you're quick, you can often get the opponent's back from this move.

very similar to SC's knee seizing throw.
place one hand on the opponents right shoulder (or left side of neck anywhere that will generate torque). with that hand, shove them to their right side while slapping their knee to the opposite side.
the motion is somewhat like turning a steering wheel. most of the force comes from your waist and hips though.

is an underhook when you have your arm hooked under theirs? like your bicep in their armpit?

also, how about some non style specific drills etc for grappling?
here's the only one i can think of off the top of my head. plus i have to go eat.

duck walking

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by neptunesfall
very similar to SC's knee seizing throw.
place one hand on the opponents right shoulder (or left side of neck anywhere that will generate torque). with that hand, shove them to their right side while slapping their knee to the opposite side.
the motion is somewhat like turning a steering wheel. most of the force comes from your waist and hips though.


It sounds like it would look similar, but the movement dynamic is different. In a kneetap, you're pulling the knee towards you while pushing against his ribs/armpit with your shoulder. The force mostly comes from the driving of your legs. The move you describe sounds more similar to a knee pick.

http://www.themat.com/technique/kneepick/default.asp

A knee pick is easier to get than a knee tap, but it's also easier for your opponent to put you in guard.



is an underhook when you have your arm hooked under theirs? like your bicep in their armpit?

Yep.

[SevenStar]

hindu squats
pulley work
jump squats


Anything that will build explosive strength in the legs.
Judo and bjj have a lot of drills that wouldn't apply to SC. SC also has alot of drills that wouldn't apply to bjj, unless they incorporate judo throwing into their training, which many camps do.

[Chang Style Novice]

so...what are tenterhooks, and why are folks always waiting on 'em?

[Brad Souders]

Been busy with some different stuff. Tore cartlidge in my knee and dislocated my shoulder. Just getting back to 100%. LOL Just for you last weekend i caught a 15 second flying armbar in a tourney. Hows the training going? You should sign up and checkout the chatroom at www.fu-ragz.com

Later, Brad

[SevenStar]

I signed up a while back - I posted a few things under an ez-board handle that I made way before Wen started fu-raz....MajesticDynamo I woulda signed up as SevenStar, but I already had MD, so figured what the hey

Training's going pretty good. I placed second in the state judo championships back in october. Our club sponsored a bjj tourney yesterday, but I couldn't make it.

How did you screw up your knee?

[Ford Prefect]

SevenStar,

I think you need to go through Ippon books to get it. It's worth it though.

[Brad Souders]

I was going for a sweep in my guard and the person flattened out on it. Some how it bent it backwards and tore up along the side of it.

Congrats on the the judo win. The way its sounds there will be alot more BJJ tourneys popping up in the East coast. Gi and No-gi and i may have a little to do with it. I'll let you know. Later, Brad

[Shisio]

I like the to mix up combo that you mentioned Merry, its a great one for gaurd. Any who, I'd like to suggest a few innocent counters & combo's to a couple of Tech.s discussed. Tell me what you guys think.

Judo over the shoulder throw on my right-
Counter -When this is done to me, I like to step just ahead of their Right leg (& sometimes a little inside) just as they doing the hip pop/ putting power into their throw. Simultaneously I throw/ flip myself with their momentum, like being double bounced. I also hold onto there belt or lower back. In doing this I usually get them to over throw themselves, and we both end up rolling with me landing on top or with back.
Combo- Do any of you use this throw to set up a (left) knee bar? It's fun.

the simplist reaper counter is the reaper. I must truly complain about this throw as I haven't seen many pull this off right in a long time. So many try to make it a body slam, they completly forget or suck at the whole off-balancing part. You the other 90% of the move.

And I think that Thai kickboxers do one of the evil 7 throws from plumb. Sound familiar?
Anyway that's what I've got

[SevenStar]

I'm not so sure the shoulder throw counter would work on a larger opponent. One thing I do is just sink my weight. Once the momentum of their throw is stopped, I can counter with ura nage or tani otoshi.

Last night, someone tried seionage, and instead of what I mentioned above, I stepped past him with my right leg, like you mentioned, but I scooped one of his legs with my arm in the process. then turned and swept him.

which throws are you referring to as the evil 7?

[Shisio]

"ATAMA-HISIGI (Head Crush)
GYAKU-HISIGI (Reverse Crush)
KESA-GATAME-KUBI-HISIGI (Scraf Hold Neck Crush)
KUBI-HISIGI (Neck Crush)
KUZURE-KESA-KUBI-HISIGI (Broken (Variation) Scarf Hold Neck Crush)
TATE-HISIGI (Standing Neck Crush)
TOMOE-HISIGI (Rolling Neck Crush)"

Basically I consider any throw that puts undo pressure on the spine evil, at least for sparring purposes.

Sometimes when Thai fighters get pulled into plumb, they grab their opponent around the waist (knuckle in) and slam them onto the backs of their heads- when this is landed (rarely), it pretty much ensures a knockout.

[SevenStar]

ah, the spine locks. I never did the takedown you mentioned in MT, but we do do it in bjj. In my MT class we focused more on striking than the takedowns, though we did do a few.

[SevenStar]

what about small joint manipulations?

[Chang Style Novice]

Use a roach clip.

(ba-dum BUM!)

[SevenStar]

*throws tomato*

[Chang Style Novice]

(grapples tomato)

(greco-roma style)

(Ba-dum BUMP!)

[Chang Style Novice]

Okay, I don't know nothin' 'bout small joint manipulations except for Cheech and Chong jokes, so let me take the discussion in a different (serious) direction.

Pretty much all my grappling experience is based on T'ai Chi, so a lot of my strategy depends on trying to 'fake out' my opponent. In the clinch, I'll move in one direction in the hope he resists with commitment, then reverse my movement and try to take him down in the direction opposite my initial motion. Of course, without some degree of committment on my part, savvier partners will refuse to either follow or resist, preferring to wait until I'm really committed. This is the basic advantage of drilling sensitivity, of course, telling when a motion is a serious threat to your position and stability and when it's just a feint.

For y'all that train grappling styles without a connection to t'ai chi and shuai chiao, how much emphasis do you give to this kind of following/reversal/feinting strategy, and how do you drill it? Most of our stuff comes from push hands, as might be expected.

I'm especially interested in western style grappling approaches to this.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
For y'all that train grappling styles without a connection to t'ai chi and shuai chiao, how much emphasis do you give to this kind of following/reversal/feinting strategy, and how do you drill it? Most of our stuff comes from push hands, as might be expected.

I'm especially interested in western style grappling approaches to this.

This is actually a big part of catch wrestling. Misdirection is the best way to set up a good lock. For example, I might be pushing someone's arm across their body in order to set them up for a side choke. When they push back against my force, I immediately turn and push the other way, using their force to push their arm to the mat and top-wristlock them.

Or, while in the clinch, I might want to do an outside single on their forward leg. So I start circling towards their far leg. As I circle, they circle with me, moving in the opposite direction to keep us square (otherwise I'd have their side and be able to use both of my arms against one of theirs). Abruptly, I stop circling in the middle of their step, and do an outside single; their step takes them right into my takedown.

As for drilling, well, we roll. It's tough to drill misdirection in anything other than a non-scripted, fluid situation. Rolling's the best way to do that for grappling. It's "push bodies" when you get right down to it :D

[SevenStar]

misdirecton plays a big part in judo and bjj for the same reasons fatherdog mentioned.

[SevenStar]

judo and shuai chiao work throws in combinations, as does wrestling, and I'm sure catch does also... Does tai chi do that? not necessarily via misdirection, but just a series of throws to do incas the preceeding one is ineffective - no different from striking combinations.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar
judo and shuai chiao work throws in combinations, as does wrestling, and I'm sure catch does also...

We don't do 'series' of moves that much, as we depend more on knowing which locks/throws are appropriate from a certain position and reacting with that, but we do do "one-two" drills... for instance, I drill trying for a double-leg, getting sprawled on, and turning it into an outside single.

[Chang Style Novice]

"judo and shuai chiao work throws in combinations, as does wrestling, and I'm sure catch does also... Does tai chi do that? "

Yeah, absolutely. Keep in mind, though, that the tai chi I study has a strong connection to shuai chiao.

Clinch -> #1 attempts to sweep #2's front leg-> #2 lifts front foot to avoid sweep -> #1 lifts #2's front leg at knee with foot and twist #2's shoulder's in the direction of the (now unrooted) front leg

for an extremely basic version of this. This is the first of General Ma's 14(?) postures, if memory serves.

[SevenStar]

I think I invented a technique tonight. I had an opponent in a position similar to kesa katame, with my knee under his back. I had both of his arms in position for the americana, and he tapped saying there was immense pain around his ribs and torso. It was hard to get into that position - not worth trying to figure out how I did it or how to train it, but it was cool to do something new. I think I'll call it the SevenStar Snap.

[Chang Style Novice]

You think it maybe it had to do with his dinner?

[SevenStar]

nah, he never eats before class. I'm not sure why it did something to him, but there was something there.

[neptunesfall]

maybe it was your superhuman baboon strength that did it. :D

what kind of grappler are you?

i'd consider myself a reactive or counter-grappler. meaning, i'll let you close and try something then immediately counter it, or lure you in by presenting an opportunity, then countering.

[FatherDog]

SevenStar: kesa katame is a head and arm position, right? Could you describe what you mean by having both of his arms in position for the Americana?

Neptunesfall: It's kind of a difficult question. Nearly everybody else at my gym has been grappling for years longer than I have, so I wind up kind of being a defensive grappler by default :( In terms of natural preference, though, I tend to be a bit more of an aggressive grappler... I like to establish a control position, then immediately start aggressive action in order to force an opening or reaction out of him. The aggressive action can either be an attempt at a submission, or just a grind on his jaw/throat/sternum/floating ribs/other pressure points with knuckles/forearm/elbow/knee, but I always try to be doing an attack of some sort.

[Chang Style Novice]

What kind of grappler am I?

A beginner.

[SevenStar]

this is kesa katame (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/osaekomi/hon_kesa_gatame.gif) - yes, you are holding thehead and arms. see how his front leg is? my knee was actually under his back. and instead of his neck and arms, I had both arms - bending as if I was going to americana both of them. I only said kesa katame so you could get some idea of how my body was positioned next to him.

What kind of grappler I am depends on who I'm rolling with and what format. In judo, I'm very aggressive. In bjj, I'm usually more defensive than anything else - not by choice, however.

[Merryprankster]

A very aggressive countergrappler.

[neptunesfall]

ttt

anyone have ideas on how to set up a leading arm kicking throw in sparring?
(i tried to find its judo equivalent for sake of clarity, but couldn't find it. if someone needs an explaination, let me know.)

[Chang Style Novice]

just a little anecdote

On friday only I, one other student, and Shifu were at the school. So, after warming up, we decided to spend the entire time of both classes taking turns at free practice with each other with the following rules - no striking, first to the ground or to leave a six-foot diameter circle loses. Both me and D. (the other student) are significantly younger and bigger than Shifu. Shifu even said that we were faster and stronger than he.

And yet...the only way either of us could beat him under these rules was to push him out with our bulk (the energy we usually call 'ji.') He attributed this to the fact that the taiji aspect of his grappling and throwing was so developed that he could reverse any throwing type action we made, and that's sure what it felt like! And I'm sure that when I muscled him out of the little chalk ring I drew on the mats, if he'd had a little more room to operate (or if we had allowed striking in the rules) I would have been toast, because I had to commit so strongly to the push.

Or, to sum up: Taiji grappling! Sensitivity! Listening to intent! Woohoo!

[SevenStar]

in MT, we would scoop block a lead leg front kick, raise the leg, and step in and sweep as we did so.

For a weak lead leg kick, like an inside crescent, I'd imagine you could step in on it and do a shoulder throw. his leg wouldn't snap, as his leg is mad to bend in the direction that it would be over your shoulder, but you still may be able to throw him.

go for some type of single leg attack on his supporting leg.

* I haven't tried the last two suggestions, but who knows, they may work.

[SevenStar]

http://www.judoinfo.com/katagosh.htm

http://www.mawn.net/arus.htm

[neptunesfall]

hmm...leading arm kicking throw isn't on any of those pages. it wasn't on this page either... http://www.judoinfo.com/techdraw.htm
so here's the explaination of it:

A and B square off.
B attacks with a right hand punch.
A blocks with R hand inside to outside block, simultaneously jumping alongside B.
A grabs B by the shoulder, forehead, hair etc with Left hand and yanks B backwards, down and slightly towards him.
A uses left leg to sweep B's left leg.

[LeeCasebolt]

Neptunesfall: Sounds like a (modified for striking) kosotogari or kosotogake. I've no idea how you'd set it up; I've never been proficient with either technique. By your description, it sounds more like something you react with, rather than set up, anyway.

Maybe bait him into throwing a slow, off-balance right hand? (Of course, I have no idea how you'd do that, either...)

Lee Casebolt
obviously not helping

[neptunesfall]

By your description, it sounds more like something you react with, rather than set up, anyway.


i've tried that too. for me it's been an extremely difficult throw to execute.
in sparring, i've been picking a technique per match and trying everything i can think of to set up and execute said technique. so far the most success i've had is with knee seizing.

[neptunesfall]

For a weak lead leg kick, like an inside crescent, I'd imagine you could step in on it and do a shoulder throw. his leg wouldn't snap, as his leg is mad to bend in the direction that it would be over your shoulder, but you still may be able to throw him.


this was in a movie....tai chi II...slammed the guy right on his face.

[SevenStar]

cool - if it worked in a movie you know it will work in real life :D

My bad, I thought you were saying that he was kicking with his lead leg (the attacker)

[SevenStar]

what is the difference between the way say chen and chang style apply grappling in their taiji?

[neptunesfall]

i completely forgot what i was going to say.:mad:

[SevenStar]

ROFL, just say no, man...

[SevenStar]

ttt

[neptunesfall]

oh yeah, now i remember...

i noticed the other day there was a huge chunk of tree stump in a house down the block so i walked over and rolled it home.
i'm in the process of levelling it out and cutting a nice deep groove close to the top on the other side.
why?
stand in front of it in a nice horse stance. lift the heavy ass stump and twist it.
repeat on other side.
conditioning for hip controlling.


Another example of Zhang Feng Yan’s method of training through work was lifting heavy crocks. For his business, Zhang Feng Yan had to use huge crocks to ferment vegetables. These crocks full of vegetables had to be stirred or mixed from time to time in order for the vegetables to ferment uniformly. Zhang Feng Yan required Chang Tung Sheng to use a special movement to mix the contents. He would grasp the crock at the mouth with his thumbs on the inside, lift it off the ground, and use a sharp lifting and twisting motion to jostle the contents while visualizing using the same movement to grasp an opponent’s waist and offset his balance prior to a throw.

from:
http://www.changshuaichiao.com

[SevenStar]

Interesting idea! Now, if only I had a tree stump... :D MonkeyslapToo has alot of training methods like these. He should post them here.

[neptunesfall]

speak up monkeyslap!!

[SevenStar]

ttt to celebrate Ironfist's intro to grappling!

[TaoBoy]

A couple of nights back we had a free wrestling session ofter our technique class. (I am still in the introductory class although I have more knowledge/experience than the rest of the students.) Anyway, I got to roll with a complete newbie who was all over the place. It was a great experience.

In the first round I basically had to chase him around and put some weight on him. I ended up submitting him with a rear-naked choke (hooks in). Yay for me! :)

But the second time he got around to a position where he was 2/3 behind me and could have easily taken my back if he had the knowledge of what he should have done. I was stuck in nowhereland for ages. He was kinda behind me but wasn't going for my back and I was trying to work out how the hell to get into a better position.

So, to my question, what kinda things should I be trying from that position? :confused:

I ended up rolling forward a managed to get him in my open guard but that took a while and with a more experienced grappler I would have been in real trouble.

Thanks! :D

[FatherDog]

Could you be a little more specific about the position he had you in?

When people have my back, I usually either turn into their guard, or sit out and scramble. I imagine those would probably both work in that situation.

[SevenStar]

you can use a wrestling tactic called the garanami(sp?) roll. by doing that, you will end up with him in your guard - if you do it right and if he doesn't stop it. I'll try to find a pic, but since I'm not sure how to spell it, I may not be able to find anything.

[Merryprankster]

Granby roll. You roll across your shoulder but keep your hips and legs off the mat. Useful for reorienting yourself in tight spaces or pivoting around a posted arm or leg. Ideal for that, actually.

Also useful for getting the bejeezus stacked out of you if you aren't doing it right. :D

You might also consider the switch. This has long been one of my favorite wrestling techniques and I have used it on occasion in submission grappling/BJJ.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by FatherDog
Could you be a little more specific about the position he had you in?

Let's say 12 o'clock is right in front of me. He was at about 4-5 o'clock. Had hold of my right arm (sleeve at the wrist) and somehow was holding my back (maybe by the shoulder?). I was initially trying to wrench my way around to get him in my guard. Eventually, I rolled over my right shoulder and got him into an open guard. Seems like a decent move but it did take me a while to work out.


Originally posted by Merryprankster
Granby roll. You roll across your shoulder but keep your hips and legs off the mat. Useful for reorienting yourself in tight spaces or pivoting around a posted arm or leg. Ideal for that, actually.

Maybe that's what I did?


You might also consider the switch. This has long been one of my favorite wrestling techniques and I have used it on occasion in submission grappling/BJJ.

Please explain.

Thanks guys.

[SevenStar]

thought about something today.... an application for "shoot the bow" can be kata guruma (fireman's carry) anyone else been taught that or thought about that?

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Granby roll. You roll across your shoulder but keep your hips and legs off the mat. Useful for reorienting yourself in tight spaces or pivoting around a posted arm or leg. Ideal for that, actually.

Also useful for getting the bejeezus stacked out of you if you aren't doing it right. :D

You might also consider the switch. This has long been one of my favorite wrestling techniques and I have used it on occasion in submission grappling/BJJ.

****! this boy knows what he's talkin' 'bout!

[FatherDog]

I do the fireman's carry every so often, but in general I try to avoid it...

Watch Gary Goodridge's first match in the UFC, and you'll see exactly why.

[Braden]

What's "getting the bejeezus stacked out of you"?

When someone makes your pelvis meet your shoulders in an unpleasant manner?

[Volcano Admim]

kick pelvis too you :confused:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FatherDog
I do the fireman's carry every so often, but in general I try to avoid it...

Watch Gary Goodridge's first match in the UFC, and you'll see exactly why.

I love it. I've had pretty good success in practice with it, but haven't tried in competition. Not what I would consider street or octagon effective, but I think I can pull if off in a grappling tourney.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FatherDog
I do the fireman's carry every so often, but in general I try to avoid it...

Watch Gary Goodridge's first match in the UFC, and you'll see exactly why.

I love it. I've had pretty good success in practice with it, but haven't tried in competition. Not what I would consider street or octagon effective, but I think I can pull if off in a grappling tourney.

[Braden]

My sincerely unskilled ass has gotten great results from fireman carries as counter-grappling responses when someone tries to clinch too high with their weight too forward.

I would have guessed someone with skill could pull them off pretty well. Although I suppose that could be more than offset by also dealing with more skilled opponents who wouldn't open themselves up to it.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar


I love it. I've had pretty good success in practice with it, but haven't tried in competition. Not what I would consider street or octagon effective, but I think I can pull if off in a grappling tourney.

Response so nice, it's posted twice! :D

Don't get me wrong, it's a good takedown, and excellent as a response to certain things. If your opponent knows what he's doing, however, he'll hang on and crucifix you for an armlock. That can be avoided if you get your arm bent around his leg the right way, so a slightly modified Fireman's Carry can be excellent for submission grappling. However, in NHB competition, you're liable to get your brains elbowed out, a la Goodridge vs. Herrerra in UFC 8.

[Merryprankster]

Braden, yes. Except you stay there because the other guy has you stacked. :D No roll through for you.


Hit a Greco-Firemans--hit the firemans, but don't use your leg-grabbing arm. Just bury your shoulder deep.

You train it that way anyway. The leg becomes "icing on the cake."

The trick is the deep penetration and snapping him hard forward and keeping his arm tight as you go for it.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Hit a Greco-Firemans--hit the firemans, but don't use your leg-grabbing arm. Just bury your shoulder deep.

You train it that way anyway. The leg becomes "icing on the cake."

The trick is the deep penetration and snapping him hard forward and keeping his arm tight as you go for it.

Huh; I never really considered that. Thanks; I'll give it a try.

Got any resources for Greco-type throws? I'm a lanky *******, and upper-body throws from the clinch tend to be easier for me than shooting; I've been trying to train them more, but I'm handicapped by a lack of knowledge of them.

[SevenStar]

yeah, the deep penetration and control of the arm are key.

[TaoBoy]

I have absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about. But that's okay.


I just got my first stripe on Saturday and then proceeded to choke out another one striper with a cross lapel from guard. I was pretty happy. It's nice to tap rather than be tapped (for once). :)

[SevenStar]

we're taling about kata guruma - the fireman's carry

http://www.santanijudo.com/Dropkataguruma3.MOV

[Merryprankster]

Fatherdog--

If you are tall with really long arms, consider ankle picks, knee-picks, snapdowns, and when you shoot, work for angles. Stop trying to get directly underneath the guy.

The problem you're going to run into on greco type throws with a lanky build is you may not be able to match leverage and upper body strength with a lot of guys. I have long arms, and I'm kind of tall for my weight (not hugely, but kinda) and my most successful no gi takedowns are:

Duck unders to some sort of finish (counter intuitive, I know, but you can vary the height on these depending on how you hit it.)

Head and arm or underhook-overhook hip throw to a footsweep--looks like ko-uchi.

Sweep singles.

Work a sweep single. With your long arms, you don't have to penetrate as deeply as some to make it to their legs, and the fact that you sweep out and away will keep you from having to try and get your long ass upper body in the right posture to avoid a good hard sprawl.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Fatherdog--

If you are tall with really long arms,


6'4", and my total arm-span (fingertip to fingertip) is somewhere between 6'7" and 6'8".



consider ankle picks, knee-picks, snapdowns, and when you shoot, work for angles. Stop trying to get directly underneath the guy.

My current favorites are arm-drags to a go-behind and knee picks. I've found snapdowns useful for setting things up, but I've never been successful in taking someone down with one... any tips?



Sweep singles.

Work a sweep single. With your long arms, you don't have to penetrate as deeply as some to make it to their legs, and the fact that you sweep out and away will keep you from having to try and get your long ass upper body in the right posture to avoid a good hard sprawl.

Thanks. I've been trying to drill those more lately; I have good form in drills, but I find it difficult to pull off when rolling. I'm probably just not setting it up well enough.

[chingei]

Originally posted by FatherDog
[/I've found snapdowns useful for setting things up, but I've never been successful in taking someone down with one... any tips?


Sounds like you're all set. That's what they are best for. If you can snap someone all the way down, either you are stronger/faster than hell, or the guy's a fish.

[chingei]

Originally posted by FatherDog
[B
My current favorites are arm-drags to a go-behind [/B]

I'd be careful with drags. Being tall like you are, you need to be sure you don't 'drag' someone into an outside single.

[Merryprankster]

What Chingei said. It's hard to snap somebody down to a takedown.

Try a front head lock to go behind or a head chancery to go behind.

Practice your go-behinds though, because every now and again, somebody will fall forward and you may not hit a lock and then it's like "Well, crap, what now?" :D

[Merryprankster]

Chingei, that's why I drag UP :)

I like the russian two on one too. Good for tall people.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Chingei, that's why I drag UP :)



I'm too short to concieve of such a thing! :D

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

I like the russian two on one too.

keeping good position is key to making that work.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, you have to stay off to the side and keep the pressure on with your bicep and shoulder.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Yeah, you have to stay off to the side and keep the pressure on with your bicep and shoulder.

Which can be rough if he sees it coming. However, "trying" for it can be a great set up for other things 'cause a lot of people tend to straighten up as they attempt to square up in reaction to it.

[Merryprankster]

I usually use a shoulder and neck pinch to counter a collar tie and use that to go right into the russian. Works like a charm :D

[chingei]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I usually use a shoulder and neck pinch to counter a collar tie and use that to go right into the russian. Works like a charm :D

Next time you get a chance, try going for a half-assed russian and as soon as he starts to react, post-up and shoot a double (or whateveryouprefer). If you catch him thinking about the russian you can get mad penetration.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by chingei


I'm too short to concieve of such a thing! :D

And on the flip side, I'm about 4 inches taller than the nearest guy to me in my gym, so I never really drag any way but up. :D

I was doing some drilling of the Russian 2 on 1 a couple months ago, but I took a month off due to bruised ribs and I'd completely forgotten about trying it when I started rolling again. I think I'll try it a bit tonight...

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by SevenStar
we're taling about kata guruma - the fireman's carry

http://www.santanijudo.com/Dropkataguruma3.MOV

Why thank you Mr Seven.

I was thinking of something a little different.


Lots of guard work last night, sweeps etc. I'm stuffed. :o)

[FatherDog]

Well, thanks to the snow, there were only three people to roll with tonight.

Eddy I can rarely get much off against, so little surprise I couldn't get the 2 on 1 working. Mike shot on me and got sprawled on instantly (sprawling, at least, I'm good at), and Zach is a high school wrestling coach and, while I can still tap him without too much of a struggle, he bounces me off the mat with ease.

Perhaps I can try the 2 on 1 a bit more on the weekend...

[Merryprankster]

Chigei,

Yeah, I use the russian as a set up for a single or body-lock. As long as that arm is nice and clear or tight to the body, whoooo-hooooo!

[ShaolinTiger00]

*frankenstein voice*
Two on One.... gooooooood. mmmmmmmm..

*walks thru wall*

[TaoBoy]

Do any of you guys know if there's an online video clip or photo sequence of the basic half-guard pass (or any half-guard passes for that matter). I got caught in a half-guard last weekend and it took me ages to get out of it. Obviously, I was/am missing something.

:)

[ShaolinTiger00]

I love the half guard!

basic pass. (assume your right leg is captured by his right)

1) Take your left arm and put it under his neck. This will prevent him from getting under your arm and sweeping you.

2)Put your right hand on his left knee. Bring your left knee up between your bodies to help w/ leverage. Use hand to push out and away on left knee to create a gap. pull your leg out quickly. Keep hand on knee so that he doesn't just bring left knee over you for mount.

You'll usually come out in side control, but I like to go directly for the mount from here.

[ShaolinTiger00]

another way.

1/2 pass (http://www.bjj.org/techniques/aranha/halfguardpass/)

another (http://www.bjj.org/techniques/jacare/halfguardescape/)

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
I love the half guard!

basic pass. (assume your right leg is captured by his right)

1) Take your left arm and put it under his neck. This will prevent him from getting under your arm and sweeping you.

2)Put your right hand on his left knee. Bring your left knee up between your bodies to help w/ leverage. Use hand to push out and away on left knee to create a gap. pull your leg out quickly. Keep hand on knee so that he doesn't just bring left knee over you for mount.

You'll usually come out in side control, but I like to go directly for the mount from here.

Lovely. I must try it.

Last night we were working on hooking sweep and trying not to get caught in the half-guard after it. So, we were dropping our knee (of the hooking leg) out to the side of the opponent and then shooting our hips forward to escape the foot. Dunno the name of the position we got to next but I remember using it in judo as a pin (right hip on ground, right leg extended to around 10 o'clock - relative to opponent's head - right arm around neck, left arm holding opponent's sleeve, wide base). And from there we switched base into side control.

Gee, I hope that made sense.

:)

[ShaolinTiger00]

judo hold = kesa gatame

[ShaolinTiger00]

Last night we were working on hooking sweep and trying not to get caught in the half-guard after it.

I'm assuming you meant a footsweep. (A hook sweep is usually done from the guard) and I'll also assume that since you were landing in a half guard that it was an inside sweep. (ouchi-gari or kosoto gari)

My question. Why are you falling down after the sweep? I know it happens but its because you weren't maintaining your balance thru the footsweep.

I love ouchi, but I use it as a setup for other throws because as you know against grapplers, you can end up in their guard, 1/2 guard.

[SevenStar]

ttt for lowlynobody

[Lowlynobody]

Cheers Sevenstar.

This is a carry on from the slamming in the guard thread - what I'm after is a discussion regarding takedowns from standing, where you go from there and defences against said takedowns.

So if one of the experienced ground players wants to get the ball rolling with how they would go about your basic shoot and how they go about using the sprawl to stop the shoot, that should get the ball rolling.

It would be nice to see people that study different styles contributing with a view to learning. It is yet to be seen wether that will happen or not.


Lowlynobody.

[SevenStar]

That's what I liked about this thread in particular and why I like to bring ut up all the time - it's one of the few where that actually happens. I think there may have been a description of both a sprawl and shoot earlier in this thread - I'll check, and if not, one of us will post one.

[FatherDog]

I'm awful at describing this sort of thing, but I'll give it a shot... the double leg.

Starting in a wrestling stance... Assuming you are right handed, left foot forward and pointing straight at the opponent, right foot back and pointing at a 45 degree angle. Mostly like a boxing stance, but the back is angled forward more.

First, level change. Lower your hips below the level of your opponent's hips. Keep your back straight. This is functionally the same movement as a bob in boxing.

Second, penetration step. Keeping your hips low, step forward with your left leg between your opponent's legs and "rock over" onto the knee (ie, bring the foot forward as far as possible, then continue going forward, coming down on your knee). Ideally, this should bring your shoulder into contact with his midsection. Your hands should immediately go to the back of his knees, your head should be against his left hip. Your right leg should be trailing out behind you; it acts as a stabilizer, preventing you from being pushed over backwards. It is important to keep the back straight during this, with the same form as if you were doing a squat; this is what allows you to carry his weight and stand back up if he sprawls on you. Leaning forward during the shoot is what will cause you to kiss the mat if he sprawls on you.

Third, drive. Swiftly bring your trailing (right, in this example) leg up beside his legs. "Turn the corner" and drive-if you shot in facing twelve o'clock, you want to drive through him towards ten o'clock. Drive off your (formerly) trailing right leg. As his feet leave the ground, sweep his legs to your right; this allows you to have a shot at getting in side control instead of his guard.

A reasonably good pictorial with a realplayer movie is available here:

http://www.lesgutches.com/techniques/double.htm

In this, the object is a pin, so the lead leg is staying in between the legs of the victim. In submission grappling or NHB, both legs would be swept up instead of just one, to get into side control.

[Merryprankster]

Lowlynobody--

It depends. The trick with takedowns is setups. A set up can be contact or it can be foot work. If you are a left lead fighter, for instance, I'll draw within range for a jab so that I can slip and shoot under it for a single leg. I will also follow a kick back in for a takedown. I will shoot under punches and elbows for a takedown. Although situationally dependant, of course, I will shoot any time you try to hit me. Even if I miss, the close distance helps mitigate the impact of your strikes.

The key to finishing any takedown is balance disruption and continuous movement. Balance disruption is important because it robs you of your power. This is something that I got into many arguments about when I first started posting on this board. Any person that tells you that sinking into a stance and redirecting the "energy," of the shot will suffice is ignorant. Not stupid, just ignorant. Sinking into a stance more often than not allows the shooter to take you down with less effort because you just made it easier for the shooter to change angles.

Any person that tells you that hitting somebody on the back of the neck or elbowing to the spine or kneeing people in the head is a good idea when somebody shoots is also ignorant. When your balance is disrupted, you have no power. Your attacks will be annoying and nothing more.

When somebody is trying to take you down, the first thing you must do is attend to your balance. I realize that many people's first response is to try a strike of some sort. This will almost invariably be a bad idea. The successful stand-up fighters in MMA events all have one thing in common--they have great takedown defenses, and they ABANDON the idea of hurting the other guy until they are no longer in danger of being taken down--when they regain their balance and are not in trouble, they start right back banging.

I cannot emphasize this enough--do NOT waste time trying to injure your opponent if they have put you in danger of being taken down. Your priority is to defend the takedown. Everything else is secondary.

Sprawls are used to stop leg attacks. Essentially, when an opponent goes to your legs, you throw your hips and legs back and out of the way, placing all your weight on the shooter's body, round about between the shoulder blades. Your arms need to be somewhere in front of his shoulders, not around his waist, although there are some defenses from there. You do not want to be in a position where he can suck your leg or legs into his body. From this position, I can attain a dominant ground position to work for submission/pounding, simply pound from there, or push off and stand up to deliver a beating.

I personally don't care what takedown I use. I just want to get you to the ground. I'll worry about the rest later.

Here is a general set of rules for shooting and takedown defenses:

Shooting:
1. Set-up and close the gap.
2. Take the opponents balance.
3. Keep moving.

sprawling
1. Attend to your balance first. Don't strike until out of immediate danger
2. Weight heavy on their shoulder blades.
3. Legs and hips down and away
4. Some part of your arms between your body and their forward movement.

There are many many takedowns and the sprawl is only the appropriate defense for leg attacks. Clinch attacks are a completely different animal, although using some of the same principles.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
I'm assuming you meant a footsweep. (A hook sweep is usually done from the guard) and I'll also assume that since you were landing in a half guard that it was an inside sweep. (ouchi-gari or kosoto gari)

My question. Why are you falling down after the sweep? I know it happens but its because you weren't maintaining your balance thru the footsweep.

I wasn't falling.

The way we were taught the sweep:

1. wait for the opponent to stand on one-leg getting ready to pass.
2. heavy leg, pivot on right hip (if opponent stands on his right leg)
3. hook inside of opponent's right with your left foot.
4. sweep

After the sweep I was getting caught in the half guard.


I really need to work on explaining myself better! :)

[Lao_Peng_You]

Merry,
In regards to sinking when having your legs attacked is right on. One thing that we CMA should know if we are not ignoring the facts is that you want to uproot your opponent, and take them out of their element, not the other way around. This is basic CMA strategy. Leaving yourself in position to be taken to the ground is as you put it "ignorant", as the CMAist is now out of his element. A stance like the horse stance is not stable in all directions, so it is easy to uproot for a shooting opponent. The better idea to someone who shoots at you is do what you need to do in order to gain position like sprawl, then circle, pick targets, and then reassess as the dynamic of the fight changes. I think patience and a certain kind of relaxing are important. If you can aggrivate someone who wants to take it to the ground by not playing his game, you have a great chance to finish by luring them into your game. I know grapplers have a preferred distance, so I try to control that distance with good footwork. I try to control angles, and strike medium and close to painfull targets. I work on throws but only if I'm positive of a finishing move is there, so I'll use those too if I have postion.

Pain tolerance can be a factor for the ground fighter, as if they risk a lot in order to gain their position they can quickly end things as well. However, if you are an accurate and hard striker, you can reduce the amount of time of the fight through a knock out or a standing submission.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Tao - It ok. I understood you fine. You just described an ouchi-gari (large inner reap)

If I can help you..



1. wait for the opponent to stand on one-leg getting ready to pass.
2. heavy leg, pivot on right hip (if opponent stands on his right leg)
3. hook inside of opponent's right with your left foot.
4. sweep.

1. Don't think of him as standing on leg. You need to practice this technique going full speed and live with a resisting opponent. you'll catch that "heavy leg" as he sets it down. timing is always important with foot sweeps.

2. As you turn your hips, Its very important that your upper body is pulling him towards his back right corner.

3. "hook" is such a vauge term. make sure that as you reap this leg out that your leg never leaves the floor. Your big toe should remain in contact (brushing) the floor at all times. Making sure you reap the ankle is the most important part. Where the ankle goes, the leg follows

4. As you sweep you must force him to that corner with force. really set him up hard so that he can't counter. He should be too focused on the fall. (falling backward almost always shuts down any offensive thought you had. the brain screams "PROTECT")

[Lowlynobody]

I'm awful at describing this sort of thing, but I'll give it a shot... the double leg.

Thanks FatherDog - I found it easy to follow. One thing you mentioned that I wasn't aware of (seeing as I had yet to look into this sort of thing) was that when the shooter drives he drives to a 45 angle. What I find interesting about this is that in YKM we initiate many attacks using 45's. When doing a circle step in front stance the rear leg comes in to the front foot on a 45 (so your in neutral stance) and then circles back out on a 45. This takes your centre away from the person and then cuts back in to their centre (ie where they can be off balanced). This also takes away one or two of their weapons (one arm and/or one leg).

Thanks for the clip. I'll check it out a little later when I get home.

For those who know what a Hakka (more specificly a YKM or Bak Mei) front stance looks like - would this stance stop you from getting a double leg? ie only allow you to reach the front leg and thus go for a single leg shoot?

What I think is you might be able to but you will have to come from side on to get around the front foot (which is turned in at a 45 angle and bent so that the knee is in line with the toes). I say this thinking that you are trying to get your hands behind my knees.

If you came front on your arm going for the rear leg would be almost fully extended (depending on size of course) and wouldn't have the power that you would if you had both my legs close to your body. You also will not be able to get your penetrating step into my centre again unless you come at me from side on?

Again I think this is accomplished by having the front foot turned in allowing me to have my knee where you would want to be steping into my centre. Ah I how I love the basics :)

I'll get to where I'm going with this after I get some replies.

Merry I'll get to your excelent post after work. You talk a lot of sense.


Thanks guys.

Lowlynobody.

[Merryprankster]

Going into the front stance causes me to switch off to a single. I'm not going to bother reaching for the far knee. That's the only effect. Lowering into a stance is going to get you taken down, pretty much.

A rule of thumb is if they are square on, double. If they are staggered, single.

[Lowlynobody]

Lowering into a stance is going to get you taken down, pretty much.

Your associating sinking with stationary or immobile? If that is the case getting your hips bellow the other person so you can shoot would make you move to slow and allow the other person to lay a few on you. Though this isn't the case.

One of the reasons to do stance training is it allows you to stay lower while remaining mobile.

This may be a stupid question but is a single the same as a double except both hands are used on one leg?

Well I'm off to train.

[SevenStar]

it's not necessarily sinking that makes you immobile, but the fixing - you are less mobile in your front stance than I am when I sink to shoot in. even though your leg is back, part of the beauty of takedowns is that it's usually not very difficult to change the angle of it.

The single leg is versatile. It can be done from the inside or outside, and the actual take down can be done from various angles and heights, could be sweeping, etc.

here's one variation:

http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/techniques/singlelegtakedown/

[Lowlynobody]

it's not necessarily sinking that makes you immobile, but the fixing - you are less mobile in your front stance than I am when I sink to shoot in

What is your reasoning behind that? Out of curiosity what styles have you studied?

If you are fixing and grounding and being rigid in your stances in a fight before and after you strike/attack/deffend then you are using your stances wrong or you have not been taught how to use them in a fight. Same goes if you are not light on your feet when you move.

In that case then you ass is going to the ground.

[Lowlynobody]

I think there is an element of timing between relaxed/fluid/soft and when to be hard/strike. In YKM this is one of the fundamental theories. It is what the name of the system means.

So if you think I'm going to stand there and be fixed in a rigid stance and try and react from there when you shoot then you have the wrong picture. There are also several different ways of moving outside of half and full stepping such as tiger step and shrimp step. Some of which you should be able to at least move in the 8 directions at any time at speed. The shrimp step is a bit different I believe.

Although situationally dependant, of course, I will shoot any time you try to hit me. Even if I miss, the close distance helps mitigate the impact of your strikes.

This is assuming the person doesn't have short power. Again here I train in a system where the ideal distance from the opponent is where ever you can get a bridge. That means from my wrist of my striking hand (with elbows pointing at the ground) to my guard hand at my elbow which is about 4 inches from my chest. Do you think a system all about fighting at this close in range (and also basically a means to generate ging) would not be able to cause serious damage when your close enough for me to headbut you without moving? If it can't then I should stop now. But I know it can.

Balance disruption is important because it robs you of your power. This is something that I got into many arguments about when I first started posting on this board. Any person that tells you that sinking into a stance and redirecting the "energy," of the shot will suffice is ignorant. Not stupid, just ignorant. Sinking into a stance more often than not allows the shooter to take you down with less effort because you just made it easier for the shooter to change angles.

It is true what you say about balance disruption and power. Again though I think you might find there are exceptions (rare as that might be in this case). There is a method to generate ging that you can do so from any position, even laying down, etc. I do not have this so in my case yes off balance means little power.

Sinking and re-directing "energy" will not work (unless the person shooting sucks or the person re-directing is very good) but moving, redirecting, and sinking might work a bit better? You can't change angles if your not in control of your own momentum/balance.

I must say your post was excellent, Merry. As I don't have the ability to really damage while off balance I will take your advice. Thanks for outlining some of the thinking behind the actual mechanics.

There are many many takedowns and the sprawl is only the appropriate defense for leg attacks. Clinch attacks are a completely different animal, although using some of the same principles.

I am not so concerned about clinch attacks as I am used to that sort of fighting range as mentioned above. But I would like to hear some basic clinch attacks that you have or like?


Lowlynobody.

[Merryprankster]

Lowlynobody,

Lowering your stance and center of gravity is a great first defense for throwing, and many clinch defenses start with the idea of sinking your weight as you scoot around; however, it does not provide adequate defense to a leg attack because it has done little to protect your hips and legs. You can't do footwork in any meaningful way if somebody has your leg, no matter how good your footwork is. You're getting pushed and pulled around and generally tangled up. There are ways to escape, but I wouldn't call any of them "footwork," and certainly not in any sense that connotes true mobility.

When a wrestler changes levels to shoot, he's not changing levels, then shooting. He's changing his level as he shoots. This is part of the "rock-over," step father dog mentioned--you will also hear it referred to as a penetration step. Regardless, the shooter is already closing the gap as his level changes. His motion is already committed to attack. You can change levels as part of a set up to attack, to elict a response from the opponent--maybe I WANT you to punch me or to drop your level partly too--but changing levels to defend a shot, while part and parcel, is generally not adequate once the attacker has comitted. If you do, you'll get dumped on your ass 99% of the time.

If the front stance is forward weighted, then your leg is now a post I can pivot around and take an angle you are weak at. If your stance is back weighted, then I can pick the leg up and dump you. If it's neutral, it won't be for long--I mean, you're not just going to stand there, and every movement requires loading or unloading of your feet.

This is why it's so important to get your hips and legs down and away, with your weight on top of him. It deprives the shooter of his ability to manipulate you at his leisure. If he's fighting your wieght and the strength of your thigh, it makes it tough to hold on.

[Lowlynobody]

Lowering your stance and center of gravity is a great first defense for throwing, and many clinch defenses start with the idea of sinking your weight as you scoot around; however, it does not provide adequate defense to a leg attack because it has done little to protect your hips and legs. You can't do footwork in any meaningful way if somebody has your leg, no matter how good your footwork is. You're getting pushed and pulled around and generally tangled up. There are ways to escape, but I wouldn't call any of them "footwork," and certainly not in any sense that connotes true mobility.

You are certainly correct. Footwork would be useless after they have the leg.

When a wrestler changes levels to shoot, he's not changing levels, then shooting. He's changing his level as he shoots. This is part of the "rock-over," step father dog mentioned--you will also hear it referred to as a penetration step. Regardless, the shooter is already closing the gap as his level changes. His motion is already committed to attack. You can change levels as part of a set up to attack, to elict a response from the opponent--maybe I WANT you to punch me or to drop your level partly too--but changing levels to defend a shot, while part and parcel, is generally not adequate once the attacker has comitted. If you do, you'll get dumped on your ass 99% of the time.

Again thanks for great info.

If it's neutral, it won't be for long--I mean, you're not just going to stand there, and every movement requires loading or unloading of your feet.

It is 50/50 weighted in my case. Your talking about shifting weight right? To go forward you must first go backwards, right? But is you can do that backwards movement "internaly" ie with no "external" indication that you have done so then you can keep your weight centred. Now you may call that mumbo jumbo but I it is probably the best I can describe it without showing you in person. Another thing that may help is that when I step my foot is gliding about a mm above the ground or in some cases still touching. That way I can shift weight at a very high speed.

**** it! I need someone to train with that knows this stuff, in a no ego environment (I hate ego. All of the **** that happens in the world is from people interacting. If you took most of the ego out of the interaction alot of stupid **** wouldn't happen). Does anyone know if Serpent is into the ground game?

[Merryprankster]

Correct--footwork is useless after they grab the leg. So you need to keep them off the leg. Consequently, lowering your stance as a defense isn't good enough because they are going to get hold of the leg--you have to move it out of the way somehow, AND prevent their forward drive at the same time. (AHA!)

I have offered before that a "buckback," sprawl is usually what KFO'ers are really after--the hands are placed on the shooter's shoulders as they come in, and you "glide back" without really doing a full on sprawl. However, you cannot always get this, and you really need to drop into a full on sprawl if they manage to hook a leg.


When I mean loading and unloading, I'm talking about a barely perceptable weight change. I'm going to feel it--you MUST push off something in order to move. It's just a simple fact. If you want to move your right foot, you have to plant your left to some degree to move your right foot. A millimeter off the ground--or even a sliding glide step, is plenty of weight off that foot (and on the left)for me to do something. Judoka use this all the time with footsweeps. They aren't looking for a big reaction--just that slight load and unload that simply must happen if you are to move--then, BAM, you're on your ass :D It's a thing of great beauty.

Check below for great examples of how Chuck Liddell keeps an arm or shoulder between his body and opponent when they try to shoot. You don't get to see a full on sprawl here, but this is HIS highlight clip, not the other way round :D

http://www.bullshido.us/dl_showall.asp?cat_id=56&parent_id=14&parent_name=Videos&sub_name=MMA+Highlight+Videos

[Lowlynobody]

I have offered before that a "buckback," sprawl is usually what KFO'ers are really after--the hands are placed on the shooter's shoulders as they come in, and you "glide back" without really doing a full on sprawl. However, you cannot always get this, and you really need to drop into a full on sprawl if they manage to hook a leg.

Shrimp step could be applicable here. It is a backwards movement of about a foot or two where you shift backwards without lifting your feet. Just push off from the front foot and slide backwards. Or Tiger step if you need alot more room. This is where you bring your front foot to your rear foot and you skip your rear foot back (very fast charge and retreat).

I have been thinking about something similar to this but involving striking (hey why not? :) ) It would work if you could keep the distance and you leg wasn't already taken a hold of. Maybe I can get some video together instead of trying to describe techniques that your not going to get through words....

Correct--footwork is useless after they grab the leg. So you need to keep them off the leg. Consequently, lowering your stance as a defense isn't good enough because they are going to get hold of the leg--you have to move it out of the way somehow, AND prevent their forward drive at the same time. (AHA!)

What you said above is along the lines that I'm trying to get out =)

Though I'm not sure if your seeing the fact that I'm not going to do one thing to defend against the shoot. I'm going to do a combination of things, depending..... eg Move back or move forward on a 45. Lower my centre. Use my stance to attack you balance. Strike your arms as they come into range (if I get a bridge I can control you - stick, follow, redirect, destroy, cross it to the body, etc) Claw the arm(s), pivit, turn, lock my hips and throw, etc.

Then I guess it comes down to who has trained harder at what they do. Did someone say that before? :p

Thanks for the link. If you have some spare time and your interested check this out - Yau Kung Mun (http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/technique_workshop.htm)

There you can find pics and vids that will give you maybe an idea of what I do.


Lowlynobody.

[Merryprankster]

Just push off from the front foot and slide backwards. Or Tiger step if you need alot more room. This is where you bring your front foot to your rear foot and you skip your rear foot back (very fast charge and retreat).

Now we're talking. Now, put your hands on his shoulders and you have a buckback, in essence! The thing is, you need to put your body more "in line," with the motion of his shot, than you might expect, because just moving backwards is rarely enough. I can cover more than six feet of distance in one shot--and that's just barely-average-run-of-the-mill-high-school-wrestler-me. Putting your hips and body more in-line with the shot not only helps get your legs out of the way, it allows you, structurally, to ride his momentum backwards and keep your weight off your heels. Weight on your heels is structural death if somebody is shooting on you. It gets you bent over them and you fall over backwards or forwards (more often backwards).

Don't move forward on the shot unless you honestly believe you're going to drop the guy. You're making it easier for him to:

1. Pick up your leg or,
2. Pick YOU completely up and drop you on your head from several feet in the air.

As an attacker in grappling, I want to minimize the space between me and you--I want to drive completely through you, ideally and it's even better if you come forward at the same time because picking you up becomes SO much simpler. Your forward motion, combined with my forward motion, means that I am liable to get deep under your center. This is good for me. I can stand up with you on my shoulders. The landing is not pleasant.

I realize you aren't going to just one thing. But doing a series of "wrong" things isn't very good either. I'm trying hard to outline the principles involved, rather than specific techniques, so you can work with what you already know to find a solution to the issue. It's very probable that some of what you do will work, with some minor modifications. Equally probable is the discovery that some of what has been advertised as a good idea, isn't.

[Lowlynobody]

As an attacker in grappling, I want to minimize the space between me and you--I want to drive completely through you, ideally and it's even better if you come forward at the same time because picking you up becomes SO much simpler. Your forward motion, combined with my forward motion, means that I am liable to get deep under your centre. This is good for me. I can stand up with you on my shoulders. The landing is not pleasant.

By coming forward I don't want to meet you head on. If I did no doubt it would be a case of "down I go". If in moving I can come into the shooter at a 45 his momentum will aid me to place him off balance. Then the result is much the same as an off balance striker. Of course there is a large element of timing in this as there is in all fighting.

I'm trying hard to outline the principles involved, rather than specific techniques, so you can work with what you already know to find a solution to the issue.

And your doing a **** fine job of it.

I Tried out the straightening of the leg in open guard I mentioned the other day and it works if you can get their thigh away from perpendicular to their body (in your direction) which can be managed by giving the knee (or just above it) a good hammer fist (a hammer cuts in and down towards me) and then cutting and sinking from there. What can also help is if I slide my back foot across some and turn my waist away from them.

If you do get a chance please check out the site I posted up. I would like to hear what you think about the techniques and the way they are used, if you have the time.

Oh, I checked out Chuck Liddell. I like his style. Aggressive and he is always moving. What styles has he done?


Lowlynobody.

[Merryprankster]

I know you aren't going to step in straight on, but you are still making it easier for me to grab your leg. The purpose of a shooter's posture, on top of not getting flattened, is to allow them to change angles and to recover from the shot very quickly. I realize this is not obvious to an outside observer, as it looks like the shooter could be pushed over sideways very easily.

Angle change is practiced very often and is vital to certain finishes. It doesn't really matter what angle you come in on--consequently, if you try to come in, my arms will find something UNLESS I miss you completely. I can testify that having been on both the receiving and giving end, it is really hard to completely miss.

I looked at the website you posted, but haven't really had time to formulate any comments, I'm afraid. I am glad that you were able to get what you thought might work, to work. Did you find you needed to straighten the leg first--just curious.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Tao - It ok. I understood you fine. You just described an ouchi-gari (large inner reap)

If I can help you..



1. wait for the opponent to stand on one-leg getting ready to pass.
2. heavy leg, pivot on right hip (if opponent stands on his right leg)
3. hook inside of opponent's right with your left foot.
4. sweep.

1. Don't think of him as standing on leg. You need to practice this technique going full speed and live with a resisting opponent. you'll catch that "heavy leg" as he sets it down. timing is always important with foot sweeps.

2. As you turn your hips, Its very important that your upper body is pulling him towards his back right corner.

3. "hook" is such a vauge term. make sure that as you reap this leg out that your leg never leaves the floor. Your big toe should remain in contact (brushing) the floor at all times. Making sure you reap the ankle is the most important part. Where the ankle goes, the leg follows

4. As you sweep you must force him to that corner with force. really set him up hard so that he can't counter. He should be too focused on the fall. (falling backward almost always shuts down any offensive thought you had. the brain screams "PROTECT")


Thanks for the input. It sounds a little different to what I've been shown. I'll give it a shot next time I roll.

Cheers!

[Lowlynobody]

I know you aren't going to step in straight on, but you are still making it easier for me to grab your leg. The purpose of a shooter's posture, on top of not getting flattened, is to allow them to change angles and to recover from the shot very quickly. I realize this is not obvious to an outside observer, as it looks like the shooter could be pushed over sideways very easily.

Angle change is practiced very often and is vital to certain finishes. It doesn't really matter what angle you come in on--consequently, if you try to come in, my arms will find something UNLESS I miss you completely. I can testify that having been on both the receiving and giving end, it is really hard to completely miss.

Well in that case it would seem the best idea would be for a buckback and then drive forward with strikes once you have stoped the forward motion of the shoot. Esp if he breaks. If he doesn't I should have enough room initialy to produce decent power to make him do so.

I looked at the website you posted, but haven't really had time to formulate any comments, I'm afraid. I am glad that you were able to get what you thought might work, to work. Did you find you needed to straighten the leg first--just curious.

Give us your thoughts if and when you get round to it.

I found that if his leg is at a 90 to his body or closer I needed to use a hammer to the top of the knee or just above it OR a phoenix-eye to the inside of the knee and then sink/slice the forearm accross it. Aother posibility was to step backwards (half or full) while controling the leg and turn away from them (if it was their right leg I'm now facing to their right) and this extended their leg far enough for me to do my thing.

As a note I did the above in a "this is what I'm going to try and do, resist as hard as you can". So I think a short-shock-sudden attack would work even better.

Lowlynobody.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Lowlynobody
it's not necessarily sinking that makes you immobile, but the fixing - you are less mobile in your front stance than I am when I sink to shoot in

What is your reasoning behind that? Out of curiosity what styles have you studied?

If you are fixing and grounding and being rigid in your stances in a fight before and after you strike/attack/deffend then you are using your stances wrong or you have not been taught how to use them in a fight. Same goes if you are not light on your feet when you move.

In that case then you ass is going to the ground.

bjj, longfist, judo, karate, muay thai...

in the front stance, you are leaving your leg out there - you are basically asking to have it grabbed. If you're trying to defend a shoot, you're much better off sprawling. If you go into a front stance while someone is shooting, the most common response that I've seen is fixing into the front stance, in hopes that the shooter will only attempt a double leg, and not switch to another takedown. So yes, I meant fixing.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Lowlynobody
[B]

I Tried out the straightening of the leg in open guard I mentioned the other day and it works if you can get their thigh away from perpendicular to their body (in your direction) which can be managed by giving the knee (or just above it) a good hammer fist (a hammer cuts in and down towards me) and then cutting and sinking from there. What can also help is if I slide my back foot across some and turn my waist away from them.


Oh, I checked out Chuck Liddell. I like his style. Aggressive and he is always moving. What styles has he done?



How much moving was he doing?

Liddell is a kickboxer. I think he took karate when he was younger though.

[Merryprankster]

Chuck Liddell is a Kenpo Karate fellow, I believe, FWIW.

And you are EXACTLY right--buckback, stop his momentum, then come in hammering. Great strategy!

[Lowlynobody]

Sevenstar - I'm in his closed guard so I get a hold of him and pick him up as I stand. He went to open guard and tried to sort of stand up and hook my legs with his so I droped him back down and he pulled me down again with him. From there I got hold of one foot, put it on my hip and hit (with a hammer) just above and to the side of the knee to move his leg/knee away from his body. Got the forearm on and sunk my weight as I sliced it accross the top of the knee.

He didn't move much as I had just put him back down and he was trying to put me back into a closed guard. He probably could have moved more. He did know what I was going to try and do as we played around a bit so I could figure out what I had to do to get it to work.

How would you have moved to try and stop it?

[SevenStar]

I'll have someone do it on me tomorrow if I'n thinking about it so I can tell you what I did, but I wouldn't have tried to go back to closed guard. I would've tried to get as close to you as possible so that my knee couldn't be straightened. From there, I would've been trying to sweep or otherwise work my way out. Once the leg was freed, of you were still standing, I'd probably try for a rolling knee bar. If a sweep was successful, then what I did next would depend on our position.

[Chang Style Novice]

Could someone please describe, and if possible link to a demonstration of, the "Salto" please?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Could someone please describe, and if possible link to a demonstration of, the "Salto" please?

Here (http://www.saltinstitute.org/) you go.

[Chang Style Novice]

Gee, thanks.

Fatherdog? MP?

[Serpent]

I'm bored.

Aren't you supposed to be busy?

[Chang Style Novice]

It's spring break. But yeah, I should probably be working on some sketches instead of futzing around here.

edit - although actually, I'm contemplating a series of paintings that would utilize different throwing movements as a partial subject. So this is research. Yeah, that's it. Research.

[Serpent]

Well done!

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Gee, thanks.

Fatherdog? MP?

A salto, to the best of my understanding, is a back arch throw from double overhooks. I haven't been able to find a pic, probably because it's primarily a Greco move and it's a pain in the ass to find any Greco resources online. (If anyone knows of any, please, let me know)

This is a lateral toss:
http://www.themat.com/technique/lateralunderhook/lateralunderhook.asp

A salto looks very similar, but is done with double overhooks instead of an underhook/overhook as shown here. The mechanics are similar, but not identical; I don't have enough experience with the salto to go into detail. MP?

[ShaolinTiger00]

On a detail note here..

That clip is a very good example of a well executed throw.

Notice how he uses his leg to block his opponent's leg from coming forward keeping him off balanced while he transitioned into the torquing movement of the throw.

off balancing is the key to good grappling.

[Chang Style Novice]

That leg block is best shown in the fourth frame there, right?

Thanks for the link and explanation - that's about what I thought it was. Anyone else who wants to elaborate would be welcomed, too.

Thanks to you both.

[Suntzu]

I think I got thrown like that on Friday… I hate fight dudes that used to wrestle…

[Merryprankster]

A Salto is executed like a Suplesse except, as you described, it's from the front with double overhooks, as you surmised.

It's very much a Greco move--don't see it much in free or folk.

[TheGhostDog]

ShaolinTiger00,
The technique that TaoBoy was describing is a hooking sweep from the guard, as in BJJ. You are describing a throw from standing whereas Taoboy's question was a sweep from his back.

Go to the following link to see a similar technique to what Taoboy was asking about:

http://bjj.org/techniques/intheguard/hooksweep/

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FatherDog


A salto, to the best of my understanding, is a back arch throw from double overhooks. I haven't been able to find a pic, probably because it's primarily a Greco move and it's a pain in the ass to find any Greco resources online. (If anyone knows of any, please, let me know)

This is a lateral toss:
http://www.themat.com/technique/lateralunderhook/lateralunderhook.asp

A salto looks very similar, but is done with double overhooks instead of an underhook/overhook as shown here. The mechanics are similar, but not identical; I don't have enough experience with the salto to go into detail. MP?

The closest thing I know of to that in judo is yoko otoshi (http://www.santanijudo.com/yoko-otoshi.MOV), but the sit is what accomplishes the throw, not an arching of the back.

[SevenStar]

Someone recently talked about Mantis grappling - including ground grappling - in another thread. Anyone care to talk about it here?

[Serpent]

No fair!

:)

[TaoBoy]

I rolled with a guy that was 33 kilos heavier than me last night. Almost caught him in a triangle but the guy was just too strong and too heavy (and I've never actually been shown how do pull off a triangle). I think my neck is gonna hurt for a week.


I love this sh!t.

[FatherDog]

Speaking of which... does anyone know of any online Greco resources? I'm a tall, lanky sonofa*****; upper body throws are my bread and butter. My coach is 5'6"; he knows Greco throws, but he's not great at them. I'd like another resource to go to.

[chingei]

Originally posted by FatherDog



This is a lateral toss:
http://www.themat.com/technique/lateralunderhook/lateralunderhook.asp




I used to get some mileage out of that back in the day

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Serpent
No fair!

:)

all's fair in ThreadWars, bud. :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by TaoBoy
I rolled with a guy that was 33 kilos heavier than me last night. Almost caught him in a triangle but the guy was just too strong and too heavy (and I've never actually been shown how do pull off a triangle). I think my neck is gonna hurt for a week.


I love this sh!t.

Describe how you were doing the triangle

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SevenStar


all's fair in ThreadWars, bud. :D

True enough.

You keep posting. I'm gonna go and bang your momma.

[SevenStar]

speaking of which, after I left your mom and sister, they told me why you can't bang anybody at all... you know they have medication for that, right?

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by SevenStar


Describe how you were doing the triangle

Badly! :p

103kilo bohemoth had attempted to pass, I caught his arm and climbed my legs up his back. Made the 'triangle' around his neck/arm with my legs...but I couldn't get his arm across to the opposite side - ie across his neck - and I couldn't pull his head down to complete the choke.

I need some instruction on this one. I'll be asking some questions of my coach.

As I said previously - I've never actually drilled the triangle.

BTW - the somb!tch slammed me too - was not happy. I'm thinking you got 33 kilos on me - like you need any other advantages.



I love this sh!t.

[SevenStar]

was it hard to pull his arm because of his resisting, or because of a lack of space?

[SevenStar]

ttt

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by SevenStar
was it hard to pull his arm because of his resisting, or because of a lack of space?

I couldn't pull his head down because he was so bloody big - I just couldn't reach it and get a decent grip. As for his arm I couldn't push it across primarily to his resistance. Perhaps there wasn't enough room but I am not sure.

[SevenStar]

sorry for taking so long to respond, I'm just now checking this thread. Try this:

trap his arm - secure it really well. While it's secured against your body, lift your hips. Drop your hips suddenly - this will create space between his arm and you - and yank his arm over as your hips are dropping. Now, you have his arm in the right place, or at least closer than you did before.

Since you are having probs with the traditional triangle in terms of pulling the head, try this - instead of having your foot across his neck, place is diagonally down his back, like a sloppy triangle attempt. Now, squeeze INWARD as opposed to down. You can that direction also. It still helps to have the head, but you may find that method easier for you.

[TaoBoy]

Thanks 7*.

I'll grab one of the guys and drill this.

- Adam

[FatherDog]

Does anyone know a good place to go online for Greco-Roman wrestling techniques? I'm fond of upper-body throws and such, and I'd like to take a look at some of them.

...plus, I'm 6 inches taller than the next tallest guy at my gym. I'm getting pretty **** tired of sweep singles and front headlocks being the only takedowns I can pull off with any regularity :D

[LeeCasebolt]

FatherDog -

Tried themat.com? It's Coaches Corner has a few articles on Greco, including one devoted to my current favorite - W-H-I-Z-Z-E-R! I've got 4-6 inches on most of my training partners, too, and I've got a lousy shot to begin with; this is my money move from the clinch. Great lazy man throw, too, since you get to skip that annoying pummelling.

Lee

[SevenStar]

Ever look into some judo throws or takedowns?

[FatherDog]

Lee - I've looked at the Mat stuff, and it has been somewhat helpful.

Seven - Most Judo throws I've seen don't seem to work so well without the gi. Do you have any suggestions?

[SevenStar]

tai otoshi, definitely. also the makikomi throws and koshi guruma. Other guys I know can use other throws effectively with no gi, but my no gi sucks, so those are the only ones I have right now, other than the fireman's but I know you know that one already.

[LeeCasebolt]

Tai otoshi without a gi? What sort of grip do you use?

While we're on the subject, anyone looked at sumo techniques?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar
tai otoshi, definitely. also the makikomi throws and koshi guruma. Other guys I know can use other throws effectively with no gi, but my no gi sucks, so those are the only ones I have right now, other than the fireman's but I know you know that one already.

I've used Koshi Guruma off of a ****zer and collar tie up, because it's handy to get into a head-and-arm hold on the ground, which is my favorite position. I'm a little cautious of it, though, because against the better guys it just gets me back suplayed.

I'm not sure how you'd grip to get Tai Otoshi off without a gi. Could you describe?

I don't have any experience with the Makikomi throws, but based on the pictures at judoinfo.com, it looks like you're in a lot of danger of the guy you're throwing immediately getting your back on the ground.

Lee: Haven't really looked at sumo techniques, no. Based on what I've seen of sumo matches, it seems like the majority of them depend on being able to grip the belt, which doesn't seem like it would be adaptable to no-gi competition, and pretty iffy on the street. You might be able to adapt it to a gi situation, depending on the rules about grabbing belts (I don't have enough knowledge of gi tournament rules to say much about this, though.)

[chingei]

http://www.scgroup.com/sumo/Kimarite.html

[SevenStar]

tai otoshi can be done by only gripping his arm - you don't have to grab the lapel.

grab your opponent's wrist. Then, with the other hand do sort of an inside block to the bend of his arm. that will give you the leverage you need to pull it off.

you can also underhook him instead of attacking the bend of the arm.

[Merryprankster]

I've used Koshi Guruma off of a ****zer and collar tie up, because it's handy to get into a head-and-arm hold on the ground, which is my favorite position. I'm a little cautious of it, though, because against the better guys it just gets me back suplayed.

Keep the pressure on their shoulder by getting your hips back and to the wizzer side. This will keep the back suplesse from happening, and you can turn right back into your position for the head and arm when you decide to attack--

Great pancake set up too!

[Shaolin-Do]

"head-and-arm hold on the ground"
Nothin like a good inverted cross face chicken wing.
:)
Forgot the proper term for it.
f*ck it.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar
tai otoshi can be done by only gripping his arm - you don't have to grab the lapel.

grab your opponent's wrist. Then, with the other hand do sort of an inside block to the bend of his arm. that will give you the leverage you need to pull it off.

you can also underhook him instead of attacking the bend of the arm.

Interesting. If I've got an underhook and wrist control, I'd usually go for a knee-tap; fewer steps involved than a Tai-Otoshi and if I get them right I can almost always get mount or back mount off of it. I could see doing the first variation you mentioned off of wrist control and a collar tie, though.


Originally posted by Merryprankster
Keep the pressure on their shoulder by getting your hips back and to the wizzer side. This will keep the back suplesse from happening, and you can turn right back into your position for the head and arm when you decide to attack--

Great pancake set up too!


Thanks, MP. I'll try that when I start rolling again.

What kind of pancake d'you mean? I'm not sure I'm thinking of the right move, here.

[Merryprankster]

Pancake--Take the wizzer and let go with the far arm, or get their far wrist.

Now, pop them down, down, down, like you are trying to drive them to the mat. When they fight it hard....

Turn violently aroud with the meat of your forearm on their chest. and pull down with the wizzer so you are hanging off their arm.(you'll have to let go of the far wrist...)

[SevenStar]

ttt since there's been some nice discussion about throwing differences in different styles.

[SevenStar]

ttt

[Lowlynobody]

I'm sure this has been talked about before but hey I'm going to ask it again:

What is the best sequence that you like to use to escape from someone ontop of you in the mount? I'm specificly after non-gi escapes if you can.


Cheers.

LN

[Merryprankster]

Knee and elbow escape. There's really no better way. Bump and turn is hard to get on somebody who knows what they are doing.

[Lowlynobody]

Thanks as always MP. Any links to a site where I could find a picture sequence?


Cheers.

[SevenStar]

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/mountescape/

[Lowlynobody]

Thanking you.

[SevenStar]

Time to resurrect this thread - Chris M posted a link to a site that has a bagua exponent doing a technique similar to kao (sc) and kinjit siko (silat)


Can anyone here talk about bagua grappling?

[SevenStar]

ttt for old time's sake.

[Merryprankster]

Good thread.

What do we do with it?

I sprained my knee and I've been working my half-guard a lot lately. It's been going well.

I hate half guard, but I'm starting to enjoy it. I've found that the key is really getting under the opponent.

[bodhitree]

a good place to ask you guys with experience to help with this thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44674)