Has anyone read "How to Fight a Grappler and Win?"

[IronFist]

I asked the main forum but no one really knew. Since you guys are more familar with Erle Montaigue I figured I'd ask here. If you've read it, how was it?

IronFist

[5thBrother]

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[taijiquan_student]

Dude, sorry to hijack your thread, but which Dimmu song is that quote in your signature from?
Oh, and I haven't read the book, but most people will probably automatically like it because it's Erle Montaigue, or automatically hate it because it's Erle Montaigue.

[Vapour]

I posted EM's fajing demonstration in another thread. Firstly, the guy can punch decently hard. Secondly, he doesn't seem to have any idea of what taijiquan fajing is. Though one shouldn't judge one's taijiquan which happen internally, I don't think any good tajiquan practioner would jump when doing fajing nor scream like EM does. Him tensing up when he punch is obvious from the way he do his kiai.

He seems a decent in external approach to martial arts and from what I hear, he is a decent fightier for being ex pro wrestler, he can give intellectually coherent interpretation to taijiquan. But on occasion, when he encounter taijiquan principle which puzzel him, he seems to give very esotric interpretation which cause some taijiquan practioner to scream "NO NO".

From what I know, he (or his students) got carried away in some of promotion which put EM in corner. However, from what i gather, he is very helpful if someone ask for help. And many people who personally met him have very favourable opinion on his character if not his taijiquan. Plus, his interpretation of taijiquan is more philosopical approach to life than anything else, which is another point many traditional taijiquan practioner object to.

[Vapour]

I haven't read a book so anyone please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I heard is that the book tell your how to train to have punch which can knock down opponent plus extra dim-mak point which is handy to use against grappler.

In my opinion, it is useful tactics if grappler never fought in NHB event. However, grappler who participate in MMA know how to defend against punch and you get easily owned if you think having few nice punch and dimmak points can help you. In real fight, to even knee your opponent head is difficult so how one expect to hit a dimmak point is byond me.

[wiz cool c]

Recently in Chen Tai Chi class one of my seniors was showing me some of the applications in the form. And they were against a single leg take down and a tackle.

[taijiquan_student]

What were they like?

[wiz cool c]

The one against the single leg was from the 38 form. Both hands circle down twards the head in a double chop or palm strike to the opponents head or neck while in a strong deep foward stance. The other against the tackle was from the 19 form. Opponent attempts to tackle and you do a dubble hand downwards push or palm heel strikes to opponents head or back while in a right leg close footed stance.

[scotty1]

How to fight a grappler and win? Spar against grapplers. :)

"grappler who participate in MMA know how to defend against punch and you get easily owned if you think having few nice punch and dimmak points can help you. In real fight, to even knee your opponent head is difficult so how one expect to hit a dimmak point is byond me."

Nicely put.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Vapour
I posted EM's fajing demonstration in another thread. Firstly, the guy can punch decently hard. Secondly, he doesn't seem to have any idea of what taijiquan fajing is. Though one shouldn't judge one's taijiquan which happen internally, I don't think any good tajiquan practioner would jump when doing fajing nor scream like EM does. Him tensing up when he punch is obvious from the way he do his kiai.

Because he seems quite decent in external approach to martial arts and from what I hear, he is decent fightier for being ex pro wrestler, he can give intellectually coherent interpretation to taijiquan. But on occasion, when he encounter taijiquan principle which puzzel him, he seems to give very esotric interpretation which cause some taijiquan practioner to scream "NO NO".

From what I know, he (or his students) got carried away in some of promotion which put EM in corner. However, from what i gather, he is very helpful if someone ask for help. And many people who personally met him have very favourable opinion on his character if not his taijiquan. Plus, his interpretation of taijiquan is more philosopical approach to life than anything else, which is another point many traditional taijiquan practioner object to.

I agree Vapour

Having viewed his tapes titled "small and large San Sau" It's hard to judge him. I think on some principles he's in touch with Taijiquan, on others he appears to come at it from a total external outlook. Take his small San Sau form for example. It's total Wing Chun done with flair of Taiji.

Notice how he rocks from side to side and address himself to an opponent like in many of the Wing Chun forms. Last time I heard Taijiquan stems from Long Boxing and these southern techniques are not in the applications I was taught.

Floating around on a few web sites of the EM world organization they actually refer to it as the Taji Small Chi Sau or something of that nature.

Then there is the way he's leaving the ground as you have stated. However, there is a devastating kick where all the weight is projected behind the kick at the moment of impact......It's called a stutter kick and done with a shuffle. The only problem is Erle doesn't shuffle in the examples I've seen. I questioned the screaming also, but there are a few expressions like "Heng" that you say as you fajin. But they are not actually screams like a ‘Kai!”

Also he tends to go real limp after his fajin, I've seen people I know who are not really skilled at fighting with taiji do this.

My instructor would imediatly close up again to fajin just by sheer habit......

Not to beat a dead horse again but on a lot of his techniques like in “ Ji” I don’t see the traditional opening and closing. Are they so small of circles that I don’t see them?

It's almost as if he has explored Taijiquan on his own and seriously thought about the theories, subjecting them to his own views

Am I making any sense?

[Laughing Cow]

Here is my viewpoint on EM.

Keep in mind that I haven't met the guy and only seen/read what is available on the net.

He seems to be a capable fighter, he can explain some taijiquan stuff fairly well to the un-initiated.

Is his form the Old Yang form or not, I leave that for the yang people to decide.

From what I have seen of his videos at times he seems to be mixing a few styles into one form or they tend to come out.

As for his Fa-Jing, AFAIK, he is the only person that does it this way.

A lot of the dislike for him came because a few people criticized him and some of his students went on a rampage on his behalf on the Net.

Like many other "famous" TJQ guys that are out there, some of his stuff I find good and interesting others I would rather not mention.

I know TJQ Instructorstht shudder everytime they see someone issue fa-jing with "shaking".

Back onto topic in many TJQ styles I have seen defenses that could be used against grapplers, MT specific moves, etc. (in both Chen & Yang styles)
But like with anything it will take time and dedication to make them work for you.

IMO, there are very little limits as to how the TJQ principles can be applied in combat.

Cheers.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow


A lot of the dislike for him came because a few people criticized him and some of his students went on a rampage on his behalf on the Net.



Could you direct me to the aftermass of these rampages. This doesnt speak well of my character but I do enjoy watching good flame wars. It's just so funny. :D

[Shaolin-Do]

Actually... When I spar with my friends who grapple, 9 times out of 10, squeezing the holy hell out of a pressure point when Im in a lock will get me the leeway i need to roll him back over.
As for EM, anyone read the encyclopedia of dim mak? Any opinions?

[Internal Boxer]

How to fight a grappler and win? I have read the book, not impressed I am sorry to say, it is based purely on dim-mak strikes to "deadly" points, so we get back to the same argument, that it cannot be used in demos or in the ring as it is far too deadly, and would kill the grappler. My concern with this method of teaching is

1) It is purely academic as there is no real way to prove it works in a practice environment.

2) If a guy tries to take you to the floor the main method of defence is to attack points that could kill the person, which I can just see the me in the court room with the prosecution lawer

Lawer: "So I believe you practice death point striking, please answer yes or no"

Me " Yes"

Lawer " No further questions me lord", with a smug grin

Well thats the end of my freedom for the next 30 years.

I personally think that the desire to study an art that is so deadly is is someways quite sad as it will attract those, who can hide behind this deadliness and not have to put in any real hard work to develop skill. And they can walk around thinking they are a killing machine when they live in a nice part of the suburbs, with everyone thinking Wow theres that deadly tai chi expert. :rolleyes:

[scotty1]

lol at Internal Boxer in the courtroom.

one of the things I like the most about my teacher and what he teaches is that unless you really need to stop a person getting up, there are a lot of tools for shoving people around and making them look stupid without having to strike them.

When the police turn up after some arsehole's gone for you with a pint glass things are going to look better for you if you can sort the situation without drawing any blood.

IMO in most situations where you would be required to respond physically it would be fu(king disastrous for your life if you killed your attacker.

Hasn't anyone seen Con Air?

[Shaolin-Do]

Keep in mind a lot of pressure points are not "death touches"
Ive gotten a few on myself and friends and im still healthy and alive.... :p

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Internal Boxer
How to fight a grappler and win? I have read the book, not impressed I am sorry to say, it is based purely on dim-mak strikes to "deadly" points, so we get back to the same argument, that it cannot be used in demos or in the ring as it is far too deadly, and would kill the grappler. My concern with this method of teaching is

1) It is purely academic as there is no real way to prove it works in a practice environment.

2) If a guy tries to take you to the floor the main method of defence is to attack points that could kill the person, which I can just see the me in the court room with the prosecution lawer

Lawer: "So I believe you practice death point striking, please answer yes or no"

Me " Yes"

Lawer " No further questions me lord", with a smug grin

Well thats the end of my freedom for the next 30 years.

I personally think that the desire to study an art that is so deadly is is someways quite sad as it will attract those, who can hide behind this deadliness and not have to put in any real hard work to develop skill. And they can walk around thinking they are a killing machine when they live in a nice part of the suburbs, with everyone thinking Wow theres that deadly tai chi expert. :rolleyes:



I agree....
I know ways of dealing with a grappler, but it involves striking common soft/vital spots like the neck, temples eye's and throat etc....etc…. And keeping your center even and as level to the floor as your opponent's, to prevent being taken off your feet (up-rooted) etc... Not to mention a very heavy dose Chin-na too....

But this stems from reality (much sweat, bruises and getting my pride brashed etc...)

When people talk about dimmak etc, I think there is some truth to it .... Modern science has validated acupuncture, but trying to hit a moving target that is trying to hit you back is another matter.

Ok one can strike that point during a seminar on a person standing still, but the odds of anyone hitting a point so specific as some dimak enthusiasts suggest, is beyond anyone's skill I've seen (except for a rare or lucky shot, I can't see it happening against someone big and powerful or skillful at fighting etc....)


I feel the same about board or brick breaking. It means nothing in relation to actual skill in self-defense.
Look’s cool, so does zapping someone in a specific point in their arm and seeing them drop to the floor (I’ve seen it at a Dillman seminar) but again hitting that specific point is altogether another matter in a real fight

[IronFist]

Originally posted by taijiquan_student
Dude, sorry to hijack your thread, but which Dimmu song is that quote in your signature from?

Whoa, I haven't even checked this form in a long time.

The song is called "Puritania" and is on the album "Puritanical Euphoric Misanthropia."

Now to read the rest of the replies.

IronFist

[jun_erh]

I don't get that dim mak stuff at all. Wouldn't people be dropping like flies all the time from those points being hit by accident. Plus, if you're trying to kill somone, wouldn't it be much easier to put your hands around their neck and squeeze?

[Internal Boxer]

Come on Jun_erh you know that amount of idiots out there that want to buy into the "deadly killing machine" image, don't shatter their illusion for them, they may actually have to do real training and be forced to work up a sweat.:cool: