Tai Chi's opening posture

[MaFuYee]

hello all,

i'd like to ask all of you how you like to use the "opening posture" of tai chi.

(the first movement of most yang style forms)

- you begin by sinking your weight on your right leg, and stepping out with your left, and then go into wuji. - then you raise your arms to shoulder level, bring them in to your chest, and then lower them to your waist. - that is the move i am talking about.

i most often see the application of this being shown against a two handed grab, where you bring your arms up between the attackers arms, grab them and pull his arms down.

- i don't like this too much, and i almost never use this when sparring. - i don't often get the chance, and it never works well when i do; because after i pull down, the attacker usually just drops his weight and charges in. - then we get into a grappling and throwing situation.

i have 5 main ways that i like to use this technique. i was shown a few others, but i personally don't like them too much; i haven't had much success with them while sparring. - i like these five ways because they are very simple, and i use them all the time.

i think these 5 ways are really good, but i wonder if there are other ways of using this technique that i have not yet seen, that i may perhaps like better, or that i can add to my 'repitoire'.

any input would be appreciated.

peace outside.
Ma.

[RAF]

MaFuYee:

Sorry, I didn't read your post close enough and simply repeated what you already and I mixed some of the baji techniques (the options). The options I cited where simply stand along techniques.

You are very correct in stating that the collapsing palm would siimply push the opponent away, however, the thrust is up and under and requires that the initial breaking of the grip destabilizes the opponent. The technique is found in some of the other movements.

I also think our openings are a bit different.

Go to www.wutangcenter.com and under videos you can see a clip of our opening movement. I think you'll see that the dropping of the hands/arms is driven by the sinking of the waist/legs and that the palms never descend lower than your chest.

Thanks for your exposition.

[taijiquan_student]

There are, of course, aplications that can be taken from the opening move, but I learned that the opening movement is not supposed to be martially oriented. Because your weight is 50/50 when you are raising and lowering your arms, taiji has not begun yet, and you are in wuji. I learned that the opening move should be one complete circulation of qi around the meridians, and that taiji actually starts when you sink into your left leg after bringing your arms down.

[No_Know]

If one does look for something fighting~ from it... delay the uprise. The first arm rise brushes away a punch (jab) since the arm is inside utilize the opportunity . The delayed uprise arm interferres with the other ar attack.

By design it looks good for getting under the arms of a choker. Getting on top from the inside. then guiding the force behind you. They run into your chest area slowed by your control of their arms...background determines what happens next. Please note it's a good time for A Kung-Fu humiliation comment. It should be to make them feel silly for attacking you in the first place. Or giving them a chance to stop or not continue...they are already stopped (why go through all the trouble of stating up again?) :-)

[MaFuYee]

hi raf,

i know the application you are talking about. - it's one of those "other" applications i was talking about that i said i wansn't too crazy about.

i think that there are a few flaws in that app that you might want to consider. (that i've learned from experience, playing around with that application.)

1. this is very important. - it's not that often during sparring/fighting that you end up with your opponent grabbing both of your wrists in that manner. - even when going from a chi sao, wing chun grappling/trapping kind of mode. and when it does happen, it's not a static kind of thing. - he is trying to pull you, kick you, tie you up, or any number of other things. - i think it's wrong to assume your opponent will be facing you square, with equal weighting on both feet. - and when he has you grabbed, you can pull down a lot harder than you can lift up. especially when your hands are in the palms down position. - you can't even use your bicep muscles to lift; you have to use your shoulder muscles; which as you know, if you've ever tried shoulder dumbell lifts in the gym, (can't recall the name of the exercise) you can't lift nearly as much using your shoulders as you can with your biceps.

- try it against a "live" opponent, as an exercise. - have him grab your wrists, but then tell him to not let you do what you want. (i.o.w. don't be a "dummy"; be a resisting opponent.)

i think you will find that your opponent will be able to do all manner of different things to thwart your efforts. - e.g. not letting you lift; redirecting your arms while you try to strike; pulling you; ... and there is nothing that says he CAN'T let go...

2. the palm strikes to the chest aren't going to necessarily 'devastate' your opponent. - you are most likely going to end up pushing him away, as the amount of power you can generate from striking at that distance, with your palms, to the chest is not that great. - once he starts going back, what usually ends up happening is that he just re-grabs, or continues to hold on to your wrists, and now you just ****ed him off. (but not hurt him.)

3. continuing in for the shoulder, elbow, and groin slap is not very easy to do, after you just palmed him in the upper chest, resulting in pushing him away from you. - what happens, is that he is falling back, and if you continue in, he will be grabbing for anything he can to hold on to. - namely you.

* i may not have understood every nuance of how exactly YOU do the app... e.g. when you palm strike/push, how close your torso is to his. (arms length? or is it very close?) - but, this is my take on it.

___________________

taiji student,

i could be wrong, as i cannot really know exactly what went on in the mind of the person who created tai chi. (whomever that may be.) but, i see a lot of significance to the opening.

1. sink the weight on to the right leg. - sinking of energy to the dantien (esoteric)

2. step out with left foot. - that is SO KEY! when someone attacks, the fist thing to do is get out of the way. - "step off the tracks" so to speak. evade. dodge. - and i also think it's significant that you are stepping to the left. - the form could just as easily have started with you stepping out with your right; but it didn't. - i believe that this is because most people are right handed; and the most common attack is the right punch. (ask any bar bouncer.) by stepping to the left, you are moving to the "outside" of his attack. (which is very key.)

granted, 'from one thing know ten thousand' - M.M.
in application you don't have to step directly to the left; it can be any angle. 360 deg. the circle.

the "step" is representative of nearly the entirety of tai chi's footwork. - albiet somewhat downplayed, and thus easily overlooked. - the devil is in the details!

(of course i could just be reading WAAAYYY too much into it... but YOU try sparring without using that sidestep. (any angle) - good luck!)

- yes, on the esoteric side, the first move is one circulation.... i dunno. - i was always taught that "raise arms" was the first move. - tai chi begins with heels together, and as soon as you start to sink your weight, you've begun. (that's how they time it in competitions, if that means anything.)

_________

no-no,

i don't really see that as an app, because the arms only rise up to shoulder level. - and if i wanted to lift someone's arms from below, i would use my palms turned up. - not the back of my hands, or wrists, or forearms, as in the movement.

again, i would have to say that simple trial and error against a "live" opponent is the best indicator to validity.

that too is one i've tried, and quickly abandoned.

__________

* thanks for the feedback, i'm glad to have an actual discussion on something, and i really hope this thread can go on without turning ugly! :)

[No_Know]

Consider it more a deflection, than a lift.

Of course, going with what you understand to work must be the way.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Although i have been taught several applications for this Yang Style movement, i find deflecting an opponent to your right (the natural result of "catching Tai Chi, right side), the next movement, to work best for me.. As i intercept incoming arm(s) the left hand moves to the hip/waist area, the right hand moves to the opponents right shoulder and the transition into "catch Tai Chi right-side" deflects the opponent in that direction.. the stepping left foot sets-up the deflecting posture/energy.. the rising arms/hands intercept/neutralize incoming arms/hands.. and "ward-off" applies force/energy to the opponents torso as they pass (push/pull concept).. Of course, by this point too many options are available to consider any One the "best"..

Its not right, its not wrong.. its just another perspective.. Be well..

[MaFuYee]

t.c. bob,

wow, you really do things the "nice" way, don't you!

when you do "grasp sparrow's tail", you put your left hand on the waist/hip, and the right on the guy's right shoulder? in effect, turning the person's body? - that is so "nice". (read, 'gentle')

the way i like to use it, after deflecting the oncomming attack, is to put my left hand on the small of the back, pulling in, while the right hand strikes through the person's chin from a forward angle. (if that makes sense.)

and, if i'm on the ball, i may try to add the leg hook.

the goal is to try to get the guy's body parallel to the ground, at about chest height, or if you're really good, to turn him almost upsidedown. - and them help him land 'ever so gently' on the back of his head/neck.

sometimes we do use that 'turn' to set up for a 'pull down' from behind, where again you are slamming the person's head to the ground like a basketball. - but, i usually find the 'turn' to be unnecessary after a good deflection, i can go straight to the pulldown from the back.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It can be "nice".. or not.. during the deflection my right hand slips down the opponents right arm to his wrist, then from "catch Tai Chi right-side" the left hand rises to lock the elbow.. right hand pushes down with the wrist as the left hand, locking the elbow, rises to the ward-off posture.. with just a little hip twist and some "FaJing" on my part.. the opponents elbow is hyper-extended (or worse) and they tend to rise up on their toes with the pain.. the forward step usually sends them backward briskly as they nurse a now throbbing elbow.. A good opportunity to discuss the necessity for additional applications.. or a lesson in the healing arts.. but, yes, it can be nice.. In my previous post, i mentioned applying ward-off with "force/energy".. that can be targeted to the liver-gate using the back of the wrist for striking with a little "FaJing".. With the opponent concerned with his own balance and using torso muscles more for balance than defense the liver-gate is vulnerable for a nasty dose of penetrating energy...

Just another perspective on the same movement.. be well..

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

I agree with TaiChiBob. It is just another way but try adding some intent and see what you come up with my friend.

[MaFuYee]

t.c. bob,
i dunno... upon re-reading your first post, (i think i misunderstood it the first time) it sounds like you are doing a ward off type of thing; and in your second post, it sounds like you are doing 'grasp' ('catch'). - in both cases, the 'raise arms' only comes into play to make the initial contact, it seems.

personally, i wouldn't even count that as 'raise arms', but rather, 'ward off' and 'grasp'.


raf,
that's interesting, how in your version the arms don't come down to the waist... i've never seen that before. - do you know why that is?

don't know much about baji/pigua, but what you described sounded just like tai chi to me.


*******

does anybody else out there use 'raise arms' in and of itself, as offensive or defensive techniques?

[RAF]

Good Morning MaFuYee:

Its a bit different but you'll note that the hands never go below the chest area (breasts) precisely for the application that I described (loosen the opponent's grip (on the rise and the bending of your wrists) on your wrists and then moving directly into the opponent's breast area with the collapsing palm technique. You were correct---its an uprooting pushing away application). I don't like that application mainly because few if any people grab you by the wrists (if you try it rehearsed then your partner is ready for you and you lose the element of surprise and unbalance) and an easier way is simply to drop your hands down and then to the outside---box their ears and knee them at the same time (comes from our version of lao jia and is the movement before the heel kicks.

A friend of mine deep into the direct lineage of Yang Cheng Fu once made the remark that Yang's taiji has more palm strike applications than it does fist/punches. I think he may be on to something--especially regarding hidden training and advanced levels.

How do you see that?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Yes, raising the arms is the beginning of the Tai Chi set, it initiates contact and subsequent sticking principles.. in and of itself, raising arms has little effect on a well intended opponents offense.. Raising arms sets the energy in motion.. from Wuji (resting/stillness) we begin Tai Chi (change/motion).. It is my personal theory that if i am "grabbed" i failed from the onset to sense the situation and secondly there far too many better responses to a double grab than raising arms.. the Tai Chi circle silk-reeling exercise is an effective and elegant response to a double grab.. It seems to me to be a little contradictory to the essence of Tai Chi to rely on the forceful upward "external" motion of the arms to free us from a grab..

Another perspective is to raise the arms inside the opponents arms, angle the hands outward from the wrists, sink while collapsing your grasp onto the opponent's biceps just above the elbow crease.. turn you hands inward bringing your opponent's elbows together, this locks the opponents shoulders and sets-up their frame for a push.. while you are sunk and the opponent is locked from the shoulders through their arms, explode from the DanTien (a wavelike motion originating at the Dantien, directed into and upward at the opponent's locked elbows), push with the legs and launch the opponent backwards.. Hopefully, you can recognize the potential variations on this theme, they are numerous and effective..

More ideas from the "Far-side".. be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Indeed, palm-strikes are at least of equal importance to fist-strikes for the Yang style.. a variation on the turn from fan-through-back has the left hand spinning horizontally in an open palm strike to the side of the head, then pushing down (blocking/controlling arms) as the rolling back-fist finds its target..

Just another thought.. be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Well said.. "I dunno".. none of us "know".. we just "do", and refine..

Geeeze, the coffee must be really strong this morning..

Be well..

[RAF]

Good Morning TaiChiBob:

Interesting and thanks. No coffe yet, just a pot of jasmine tea.

I think there is a lot of deep stuff in traditional Yang's taiji and many have not had the opportunity to explore the deeper levels of the Yang Cheng Fu version.

I've had a taste of it from a couple of people but what I find interesting is a conversion of techniques and applications especially regarding pigua and baji with xing yi, taiji. I find it harder to see regarding bagua--its truly a unique training system.

Oh, years ago I bought Kumar Frantiz's taiji application tape and regardless what anyone thinks of him, it was very insightful regarding the applications.

Later

[MaFuYee]

tc bob,

sorry if you found offense to something i wrote. - that wasn't my intent. - it's hard to convey exact inflection nuances(?) in writing, that would be picked up on, when speaking face to face.

re: "if i am "grabbed" i failed from the onset"
- i agree 100%

re: "secondly there far too many better responses to a double grab than raising arms."
- also agree 100%

re: "It seems to me to be a little contradictory to the essence of Tai Chi to rely on the forceful upward "external" motion of the arms to free us from a grab."
- i don't see how the upward motion can break a grab either; whether 'forceful' or not.

re: "Another perspective..."
i think this one is ok. - it doesn't even have to be against a 2 handed grab attempt. - sometimes when sparring/fighting you get into a chi sao type situation, and i've used this type of push. (i think using a downward push is good.)


raf,

re: "few if any people grab you by the wrists"
- ... at least not in that position...

re: "Yang's taiji has more palm strike applications than it does fist/punches."
- i agree. - i would say 75% : 25%

re: "hidden training and advanced levels"
- i don't know if it's 'hidden training', but i was taught specific exercises that my teacher said were the 'secret' to becoming good at tai chi (for fighting).

as far as 'advanced levels'; what do you mean by advanced? (complex? requiring a high degree of skill to use?)

i think 'advanced' just means having a highly developed level of sensitivity, a faster reaction time, less wasted movement, etc. - the techniques used by my teacher are still the same ones taught to beginners on their first day of class... they just haven't reached the point where it comes naturally. - they have to think about it first, and by the time they've thought about it, it's too late.

re: kumar frantzis.
- good god almighty! - you saw that tape, and still manage to have respect for him??

- what crap! - the stuff he does in that video is utter nonsense. pure garbage! - i went from thinking "wow, this guy must be great", to, "what a moron!"

(...but really, who is the bigger moron? bk, who is probably rolling in the dough from selling his books, seminars, audio and videotapes, or me, who has spent over $300 on his crap. 4 books, 1 seminar, 3 audio tapes, and 1 video tape.?)

[cha kuen]

I dont' really agree on advanced training or advanced sets because, to me, advanced marial arts come from the rigorous training of the basics.

**Tai Chi Books** (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)

[RAF]

MaFuYee:

I see we have some really strong feelings about Kumar Frantiz (LOL). I always can pick up something that I didn't know before (pretty open-ended, heh?).

Viva La Differencia!

Che Kuen:

Advanced in the sense that if you don't have the basic training, learning these techniques or methods don't work in the manner that they should. I am still at the stage where many of the applications are not self-evident and a good teacher points out additional uses that just don't jump out.

Back to coffee and the news. Enough posting for the mornining!

[Subitai]

Man I havn't been on KFO in a long time,

Anyway, TaiChiBob described exactly what I was thinking and was taught as well.

-After your hands press down on his, if he gives you forward energy, you ALLOW HIM to pass to your right. (You are controlling his wrists at this point) Ala holding an energy ball on the right hand side. This is really the big prep. move since you are now heavy on your right and light on with your left. At this point you have many options. As TCBob mentioned, a few.

Mafuyee,
The key is to ALLOW HIM. The example you gave about having someone hold your wrists is a key point.

-So what if he holds your wrists. When you attempt to get out, YOU GIM HIM energy and direction to work with. It is so incredibly obvious and when you do that, of course he can "thwart you".
- I don't mean offense but I would suspect that a person who has been studying Tai chi as long as you have would been sticking to the classics. "Follow don't lead"

This is so vital it should go w/o saying. Your example is really about chin na. And to that end, you never put the lock on someone, YOU allow them to make the mistake and you read what's given you and you follow their energy...thus putting them in a lock. When it's done this way, the right way, they don't feel it till it's already on them.

In your wrists hold example, if someone were to hold me on the wrists, I just wait. If he makes no move, I don't move. Thus i'm not injured. If he TRYS to lock or push me around. He has just opened the door and gave me something to work with. Man it's so basic. Go back and try your example again.

It's the reason as a kid... when your dad showed you a wrist lock and you went down the street and tried on your friends, that it didn't work. You don't force it, you allow it to happen when the opportunty arises. Comes with experience.

Peace,
"O"

[TenTigers]

My application is a bit different, but my Tai-Chi might be different too-aren't they all. When we raise our hands to shoulder level, we then draw our elbows back slightly and roll the scapula. We then drop the arms elbow first, then the hands come up so you are striking downward with the palm, as you bend the knees slightly so your whole body is the strike. Done fast, the hand, arms,spine ripple in a wave. This is the essence of iron palm striking. The movement is teaching you from square one how to generate force-faht-ging (fa-jing) I know my discription is somewhat lacking, but then again, you can't learn gung-fu from a book. All the other applications are somewhat meaningless if you cannot generate force. As far as a strike being inneffective from such a close range, that's what it's all about-inch power. In my Tai-Chi, there really aren't many "pushes", unless they are strikes, or takedowns. Then again, it ain't your grandmother's Tai-Chi. ;-)

[MaFuYee]

hey raf,
god help you if you are picking up tai chi applications from bk! hahah!


hey subitai,
(conan the barbarian - best movie ever.)

been a while. - i didn't know you did tai chi!

first, i'd like to say, no offense was taken, and i agree with everything you said... but were those comments meant for me?? - i was making arguments for why i dislike those applications shown for the opening posture that start out with the wrists being grabbed.

* oh, and just to clarify, upon re-reading my first post, i realised that i described something incorrectly. - when i wrote "against a two handed grab" - what i meant to write, was 'against a person attempting to go for a two handed grab for the neck/throat' - the application would be done before the person was able to grab. (yeah, pretty lame, i know.)

if a person is grabbing my wrists, great! less for me to worry about. - i know exactly where his hands are.

** note: the second post, by raf, was originally a description of how he would use it. - which he edited, so his description is no longer there.


ten tigers,

allright! finally! - i don't know what a scapula is, but i'm glad that there is at least one other person out there that realises that it is used for striking.

imo what you described is THE most important aspect of the opening move. (95%) - they're palm strikes. - how simple is that!?!

* (no; b.k. - it's not used as fingertip strikes... and you don't use it to lift up a a high kick, or block roundhouse kicks to the head with them; i don't care what back muscles you use as 'shock absorbers'... and no, you're not going to throw anyone using your chi, just by lifting up their punch with your forearms a little. - you dope!)

hey ten - i thought you studied hung ga at that school (don't know the name) taught by the guy (don't know his name either) with the pony tail that does the dunken forms at the wfh tourneys... does he teach tai chi as well?

i'd love to know who you learned your tai chi from.

whoo hoo! - you just made my night.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I train the seating of the wrists as one of the major parts of opening. It's almost like a very small frame version of An in feeling... I was pulled up recently for over-doing the seating as there is more to it than 'just' striking and my form was only working that aspect.

I was shown another application but I'm not too sure on it - basically the seating of the wrists can be a palm strike, but it is also a finger strike to the throat. Not too sure on it as I figure I'd just break my fingers - may have been told that just to get my intention into the finger tips on the movement... I guess it translates to using the thumbs on the throat as well.

I tend to find more application from the arms dropping than rising - pull downs, redirections and blends to body strikes.

It feels like An and Pull-Down to me - so applications are all related to those postures. I don't follow the 'each posture has applications exclusive to it' school of thought - not a criticism of how other people do things before anyone jumps on me. Just how I like to study and train.

[Kaitain(UK)]

oh yeah - application if someone grabbed you by both wrists (if you happened to be in la-la land) - arms pull down and draw them towards you for a head butt.

[RAF]

After thought:

When you open in the beginning posture, your palms initially rise parallel to each other and face the ground when when they reach shoulder height, that is they rise from the side of the leg . That is a very subtle rotation which is literally tracing out a half circle or an arc (in our version of both Yang's and Chen's most of the movement trace out arcs of the circle or the center of the taiji symbol. Rotation of the circle as we move also occurs along both horizontal and vertical planes). This subtle but quick rotation breaks the opponents grip by turning their grip and palm inward and parallel and as you reach the upper chest area, it becomes more easier to palm strike the vital points under the breast area.

Another diversion is to gouge the finger tips under the opponents armpits (literally trace up the sides of their body while while sinking into a 60/40 stance) and then strike under the vital points of the breast, uprooting and pushing them away.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Tai Chi is like fractal images.. each movement opens limitless opportunity.. The "secret" of Tai Chi is not in its forms, its in the principles and basics.. forms only give us examples of how the principles work.. Where one sees deflecting applications another may see striking or ChinNa applications.. Tai Chi is training for "living in the moment", not pre-set drills/forms..

Opening posture is not a fixed application, it is a link to a process.. the situation dictates the appropriate "principle" to apply..

Double wrist grab? Try circling both arms clockwise (rolling the Dantien clockwise as well).. your left arm/wrist will trap and hyper-extend the opponents thumb against your right forearm.. your right hand is free to grasp the opponent's right forearm in a sort of Mantis hooking motion.. (don't forget to step across with your right leg, unless you are skilled at "iron-crotch").. the options available now that the opponent is locked-up should be readily observable.. (if i got my "lefts/rights" confused i appologize, i don't have a victim handy to check, and its a little difficult to visualize, but self-explanatory when executed)..

Anyhow, just another perspective.. (PS.. MaFuYee.. absolutely no offense taken, i appreciate your perspectives <bows>)

Be well..

[RAF]

Good Post TaiChiBob:

6 Harmony mantis has an application which ties all of it together---regarding double wrist grab.

Basically you run both arms, palms facing you, elbows touching right up the middle of you body (almost like reading your palms, inside forearms etc.). That breaks the grip then you drop them straight back down simultaneously kneeing them and then chopping simulanteously from the back of the neck and the throat, drop arms again and box the ears.

You are correct the principles are almost infinite but I also find this in many of the higher levels---there is a convergance of techniques and applications. As someone said before sensitivity becomes critical and taiji is superb for developing this. However, other Northern systems also have this--pi gua is another eye-operner too!

And I've drifted too far off so let me stop here.

Good posts!

[Subitai]

Yeah man MaFuYee, you totally remember ol' Subitai,

My "bad", I didn't want you to think I was raggin' on you.


when you said, "if a person is grabbing my wrists, great! less for me to worry about. - i know exactly where his hands are"...dead on man.

Says basically the same thing. I however do want to intiate the 1st move at times. You just have to counter his counter. I mean...you can't always play the waiting game.

Yeah, I do Sun and Yang style. I've had to adjust how I teach, TC, In my area (Southeastern CT), i'm in a kung fu void. You know the senario, 20 TKD schools per one kung fu, if at all. It sucks to have to tone down the applications for some people.

Good topic btw,

somebody help KWOON get a big name producer,
"O" Fingers x'd

[Muppet]

??? [This one should be deleted]

[Muppet]

Sounds like what TCMA needs are Korean marketers :)

Of course, you run the risk of dishing out extremely watered down styles--check out Hwang Jang Lee's history at http://www.mhd.mh.se/~rastar/hwang.htm, you don't really hear about TKD guys killing people anymore--but hey, I guess those are the breaks.

Edit: Fixed URL

[MaFuYee]

kaitan,

i've never heard that term 'seating of the wrists' - can you please clarify? - is it just another term for the movement into wuji? ('raise arms')

re: "It feels like An and Pull-Down to me..."

yeah, sure, if you do it "slow" (relatively).
but, if you whip it, (good - devo) it's a slapping type palm strike. (like you would use when breaking bricks or something...)

re: "I don't follow the 'each posture has applications exclusive to it' school of thought.."

yes you do. - i'll prove it.

if i put my hands into the 'press' position, and strike someone or use it to send them sailing, you would say i used 'press'. - wouldn't you? - you wouldn't say i did 'snake creeps down', or 'separate kick right', or 'box ears'.

if i did the typical over the leg throw that is always shown in tai chi martial applications articles, you would say i did 'part horses mane'. - not 'punch to heart' or 'carry tiger back to mountain'...

if i did 'press', you would not call it anything other than press. - same with 'part mane'.

now... can 'press' have multiple applications? - SURE! (but there's the "meat and potatoes" of the posture, and then the "condiments")

do some applications sometimes have 'overlap' where it will look similar to another application, or where almost the same thing can be accomplished in a slightly different way? - SURE!

but each posture must have a definite purpose.

- let's use an analogy.

- different exercises, such as push ups, and sit ups, have definite purposes. (agreed?)

- now, doing pushups will work your abs to a certain extent, but it is not correct to say the purpose of pushups is to work your abs.

- doing pushups will work your pecs, and triceps. - and there are other exercises that work your triceps. (overlap)

- but why say that there is no specific purpose for pushups? - there is no benefit from doing that.

* i never said that there aren't multiple ways in which 'raise arms' can be used. - in fact, i specified that i like to use it in 5 specific ways. - BUT, i would have to give different weighting to different applications. e.g. i use it as a pull down / throw from behind; but that could also be considered 'Ahn'...

and, while i said 'raise arms' is used to teach a certain type of palm strike; i never specified exactly how it is used. - there are so many different ways. - it's simple, and versatile. - it can be used against straight punches, hook punches, kicks, grabs... it can be used offensively, in different directions... etc.

that is it's purpose.

of course i also sometimes use it is in a deflecting/parrying manner, where the 'energy' used is much 'lighter'... but it's still the same technique.

... i hope i've been somewhat comprehensible, in trying to convey my meaning...


subitai,

believe me, i took no offense. (not for lack of trying.) - i was just confused because it sounded like you were trying to contradict me, but everything you said is exactly what i've been saying. (??)

hey - i didn't know you taught... or maybe i just forgot.

that sounds like a great thing to be in a kung fu void. - no competition! - alls you got to do is enter a few tkd tourneys, and voila! - tons of fresh meat!

- why do you would have to tone down applications?
are the people only interest in learning for health, and you're tryin' to cram the m.a. stuff down their throats?

:D

[TenTigers]

Hi MaFu Yee, Tanx fer the compliments-yes, I do Hung-Ga, but I also do Tai-Chi, and other systems as well, but my main emphasis is Hung-Ga. My school is called Ten Tigers Kung-Fu Academy, and I AM the guy with the ponytail...but maybe not. I don't do drunken form at the Wong Fei-Hung tourneys,I just ref and judge, and coach my guys. You might have me confused with Greg Zilb-he also has a ponytail, (s***, last tourney, I think I counted 30 ponytails-my fiance' sez, "All you martial artists look alike")he wears a grey uniform and does predominantly wu-shu.
My tai-chi comes from alot of sources, as I've studied with several teachers, and will continue to learn and explore, but it has taken on a flavor of its own. My late Sifu said that your gung-fu becomes your gung-fu. You learn and absorb the concepts, but it is a total expression through your own self. Does this make sense? Dong Hai-Chuan taught ten people all masters in their own right, who developed ten different bot-gwa versions-all following Tung's principles-all different.
Oh, and the scapula is the shoulder blade, so scapula rotation involves the shoulder rotating, and the opening and closing of the thoracic region.

[MaFuYee]

ten;

hey.

you are the teacher/sifu? - my memory must be failing again. - i thought i recalled you saying you were a student at a hung ga school... (many, many moons ago.)

yes, it must be greg i was referring to. - hmmm... i don't know why, but i always thought that 'he' was the teacher(?) *shrug* (i guess that explains why he's competing. - because he's not the teacher.)

- i thought you gave an excellent explanation. - i never picked up on that before, that your elbow leads the dropping motion. but now that i think about it, i realise that you're right, it does. - i've always done it that way, but, upon messing around with that idea, i find that if you consiously begin the whiping motion with the elbow, i notice that the forearms and wrists seem to be more relaxed, allowing for a faster whip; adding power to the strike. (at least, that is my impression.)

do you teach tai chi at your school as well?

if so, i would be very interested in possibly taking some classes. (maybe sometime in the future. - i'm hoping, maybe i could do one class a week...it's a bit of a commute, and free time seems so hard to come by nowadays. - it would be in addition to the classes at my tai chi school. - and of course it would be done with my sifu's blessing.

i don't think anyone out there really knows "everything" about tai chi; so i'm always open to oportunities to learn, and improve my tai chi. - like that tidbit about the elbow leading..

re: "your gung-fu becomes your gung-fu."
- yes. definitely. - i am stylistically very different from my sifu. - he really likes employing the throws, and he is very good at them. i'm terrible at them; i much prefer the "touch, break" type stuff. (he's tall. - i'm short.) - he likes to stress deep stances, where i much prefer a more medium to high stance... etc.

[TenTigers]

MaFuYee, I am presently starting to teach Tai Chi classes at my school, but I do so under protest! Around here, everyone and their uncle is teaching TaiChi, and few are even remotely qualified. People have been calling me up for TaiChi, and my students have asked me to teach. I play TaiChi for myself, for my education, and for my own enjoyment, but I never planned on teaching. I really don't feel qualified, but after seeing so much bad TaiChi, I suppose although I might not be very good, I am not as horrid as what's around. Mostly YMCA, or adult education classes, or something at a gym. At least around here, anyway. Not one teacher knows anything about application. There is one person who knows structure (a former teacher) and knows it well, but did no application until he met me. Most can do push hands, but don't fight. The only application I have seen are those ridiculous pushes, and I tend to look for joint-locking, takedowns and breaks, and sealing the breath/veins. I guess it comes from my Hung-Ga mentality! But gimmie a few years (decades)! Right now, Ifeel I am just like these adult ed teachers, just a smattering of TaiChi (just who the heck do I think I am, anyway?)
Funny, I saw the tapes of the TaiChi Farm, and Yang Jwing-Ming and John Painter seemed like the only legit people there-among all the 'experts'

[MaFuYee]

ten,

i think it's better that you learned it for yourself, instead of one day waking up one day and saying to yourself, 'self, i think i want to be a tai chi teacher today.'... and then take a weekend, "intensive", tai chi crash course, and then start teaching the following weekend.

don't feel qualified?

doesn't that guy bob klein teach around your neck of the woods? - i'm sure he feels qualified.

"in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king."

- how about doing an inexpensive tai chi seminar? - it couldn't hurt. - put an announcement in the paper, and have someone from c-tv come and tape it for cable braodcast. - right around new years time is a good time, when people feel the air of a new year, and all the baggage that comes with that. ('this year, i'm gonna do something different...')


re: tai chi farm

i've never seen those tapes, but, that is bad if yjm, and painter looked like the only legit people there. - esp. since yjm does white crane, and painter does bagua.

i believe yjm is a great martial artist, but, he's a white crane stylist. - his tai chi books are him doing white crane applications. - and i bought 4 of painters bagua tapes, a long time ago, and i don't know if i much like it.

i'll just have to be optimistic and hope that there are still people who are really good, and know the true essence, but, are eccentric old taoists, who don't care to let on, what they know. - except to those who prove themselves worthy.


- what are your favorite tai chi techniques?

[TenTigers]

MaFuYee, have you seen Bob Klien's tapes? Very entertaining. I particularly enjoyed his Mayflower Broadsword form.;-)
I like your ideas. In my neck of the woods, there are alot of "new Agers" who are interested in Tai-Chi, and Chi Kung-catchphrases of the eighties, oops-nineties, um,, milenium? I don't think my idea for a flyer-"It ain't your Grandmother's Tai-Chi" would go over big.
My faves right now, are "Raise Hands" into "Shoulder Press" into "White Crane Spreads its Wings", and the transition right before you form the hook hand in "Single Whip" into 'Single Whip". I also like 'Brush Knee and Push",Fair Lady weaves the Shuttle"for applications-but that's because they mirror techniques in Hung-Ga, and "Fist under Elbow" for its silk reeling. "Step back to Repulse the Monkey" kinda looks like Hsing Yi Pi Ch'uan backwards."High Pat the Horse" seems kinda Bak Mei-ish. Hard to say, so far I like them all.
Been playing with "Needle at the Sea Bottom" looking for something outside the norm. -So far, I'm going from 'Brush Knee" into it, and "Fan through the Back" for a leg pickup takedown.-Kinda like an emergency switch of tactics when Brush knee is met with opposition. I'm really not satisfied with the applications I see from most people. I had a Sifu that weighed 300 lbs, once. He would teach technique that worked for HIM. I look for technique that would work for me fighting someone HIS size, not the other way around. I'm not concerned with 'fluff', I want the most amount of devastation in the shortest time to someone who is bigger, stronger,more skilled, is high on crack, and ****ed, -and has friends. So what are your faves?
-Rik

[MaFuYee]

ten,

bobby...gads! - i've watched his 'snake style' tape. - just looking at the pictures on the advertisements is enough to make me wretch.

my favorite techniques, (for now) are, 'raise arms' for general defense, along with 'golden rooster', and to attack, single whip, brush knee, and lift hands.

i think the best tactic for a beginer (like myself) to employ, is to use raise arms, against all long range hand attacks, and kicks aimed at your midsection. (parry kick into knee)

and since it is easier for a beginner to deliver a more powerful blow, using their legs, than their arms; after you parry (cross their centerline) with 'raise arms', you charge their centerline, using low line knee attacks to the groin, or going for the side of knee, ligament tear. (depending on which of their legs they stepped with.) - usually followed by, a push; either 45 deg. up or down, to put them on the ground.

'golden rooster' is used to defend all close range attacks. - although it is also used offensively, using elbows, knees, and claw.

'raise arms into crane spreads wings' is nice. - you're using the w. crane as a neck throw, right?

take a look at this pic, from d. weng's shuai chaio book; it how we use 'fan through back - to - needles to sea bottom':

http://yangtcc.com/other/fan2.jpg


* the way i like to use 'needles' is simply as a groin strike. - ridge hand or slap. - the top hand 'hooks' to deflect a punch, and the lower hand sneaks in a groin strike below their field of vision. (imo, this is the most useful app.)

yes, it's very 'simple'. - i think that is what makes it effective.


** how are you using single whip? - i understand the sideways parry type thing... but then what? - simmilar to 'part horses mane'?

i use single whip not as a throw, but as a palm strike; very simmilar to pi-chuan.

here is a clip:
(it's not a good clip. - the hand isn't supposed to flop at the wrist. - just nervous.)

single whip (http://yangtcc.com/singlewhip.mov)

it sounds silly, but, this is a big secret. - tai chi's equivalent to boxing's jab.

brush, is tai chi's equivalent to boxing's cross:

brush knee (http://yangtcc.com/brushknee.mov)

* note, simultaneous pak, and palm strike.


lift hands, to play guitar is my favorite 'killing' technqiue. - i haven't gotten the clip for this one yet. - but, it's one of those neck snapping thingies. - very easy.


- i'd like to start incorporating 'ward' technqiues next; used like hung ga's crane wing, 'whipping' strikes...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Favorites?.. hmmm.. The four energies of "Grasping bird's tail", the versatility of Single whip, and.. "Fair Lady working the shuttle".. Oh, and repulse the monkey combined with a "sweeping lotus kick"... Heck! i guess i like it all.. so well thought out and refined over time.. But, mostly, i like refining the basics.. from there any application or movement works and feels good..

Be well..

[MaFuYee]

oh. - another of my favorites is 'jab clouds'.

it's often shown as a downward deflection type of defense against a punch, and then finger striking to the throat, with your palm facing up; but, i would never use it that way.

if you're going to use it, you should be stepping out to the outside 45 deg angle. - the left hand traps/checks the attacking arm; the upwards facing palm is a palm strike to the jaw/chin. - not a fingertip strike; - from there, you would go 45 degrees to your left, transitioning into a 'brush knee' type throw. (right hand controlling the person's chin.)

but, this isn't my favorite way either.

i personally like this one as a 'catching limb destruction'. - works great against jabbing type punches, that people like to 'feel you out' with.

it ****es off my sparring partners to no end. (hehe) it's done kind of like they show you how to typically use 'play the pipa', or 'lift hands'. - except this works.

[TenTigers]

The way I do single whip, if the opponent is throwing a right lead strike, Ideflect it with the previous transitionary deflecting left forearm , trading to the right hook hand. When I do the palm strike, I am simultaneously breaking his arm across my chest, while my left arm is crushing the windpipe.

[TenTigers]

oops, had to run to answer the phone! to continue, this puts my leg deep behind his horse so the takedown is easily applied. Some people sink the elbow before rotating the palm into the strike, thus enabeling the strike to sink into the collarbone, which is a takedown in itself. There's just so much. In Hung-Ga, when we do white crane spreads its wings, the elbows are pulled back more, and the strike is pretty nasty, It is also used as a "drawing" or :baiting" technique, creating a false opening.
It's not that I am trying to imerse myself into too many arts thus spreading myself too thin, it's just that each art opens up so many possibilities in each other art. Tai-Chi helps me understand Hung-Ga and visa-versa. They reinforce rather than conflict. Studying different arts is like a set of gears. You can get caught up in the differences and it's like the gears clashing, or you can see the similarities, and see how they fit in to one another.
Gung-Fu is not only my profession, but my hobby as well-my passion.-funny, I still don't understand how people can NOT want to do this their entire life. I just don't get it.

[MaFuYee]

ten,
i can't picture exactly how the left arm crushes the windpipe after the palm strike. - where are you palm striking? - also, the windpipe would take a substantial amount of force to crush. - i don't see how you could apply that kind of pressure.

however, it does sound very similar to other applications i've seen.

i have a problem with that kind of application of single whip, in that, it would seem more appropriate to call that an application of the 'shoulder' technique. - the arm break across the chest. - followed up with something or other, that ends in a posture resembling the single whip of the form.

however, just because things are 'large frame' in the form, does not mean that it's combat use will also look like that. - in combat, things are done much smaller. - the postures in the form are an exaggeration of the combat usage. - just as, when you use 'raise arms' as a palm strike, you just use a short compact whipping motion. - you don't have to use it like the form.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Sorry for delay in replying - been on the road working so first opportunity to take a look :)

"i've never heard that term 'seating of the wrists' - can you please clarify? - is it just another term for the movement into wuji? ('raise arms')"
** seating the wrists means what you're talking about with the palm strike - kind of sinking the wrist down and forwards through the base of the palm. Once the arms are at the apex of their path, the wrists 'seat' before the hands follow them down, and there's an almost imperceptable forward movement as well. Hope that helps - we on the same songsheet?

"re: "It feels like An and Pull-Down to me..."

yeah, sure, if you do it "slow" (relatively).
but, if you whip it, (good - devo) it's a slapping type palm strike. (like you would use when breaking bricks or something...)"
** sure, but I take An and Pull-Down as having palm strikes in them if wanted anyway.

"re: "I don't follow the 'each posture has applications exclusive to it' school of thought.."

yes you do. - i'll prove it.

if i put my hands into the 'press' position, and strike someone or use it to send them sailing, you would say i used 'press'. - wouldn't you? - you wouldn't say i did 'snake creeps down', or 'separate kick right', or 'box ears'."

** I take your point here, and this may just be semantics - but the Grasp Sparrows sequence is like a 'mini-manual' for me. It's the rawest form of the primary hands, unadulterated by application. Just repeated again and again in the form to hammer the movements home in their vitalness. Then you recognise their feeling in other movements within the form.

"if i did the typical over the leg throw that is always shown in tai chi martial applications articles, you would say i did 'part horses mane'. - not 'punch to heart' or 'carry tiger back to mountain'..."
** I'd say you did pull-down and lui :) - my interpretation anyway (I'm thinking of how I do the movement, obviously it may differ)

"if i did 'press', you would not call it anything other than press. - same with 'part mane'. "
** No - If you did press I'd say you did press, with part mane I'd say it was composed of pull-down and lui

"now... can 'press' have multiple applications? - SURE! (but there's the "meat and potatoes" of the posture, and then the "condiments")"
** yes I agree, but Press is a primary hand, it is not composed of anything except Ji. It doesn't break down any further.

"do some applications sometimes have 'overlap' where it will look similar to another application, or where almost the same thing can be accomplished in a slightly different way? - SURE!"
** but if you see the form as being made up of the 13 postures in various combinations, then any posture is merely a combination of these basic elements. Cont'd after next quote

"but each posture must have a definite purpose. "
**I'm not sure I agree here - I think the postures are guidance for developing your own combinations of the 13 postures (sorry for using 'postures' in a confusing way - I hope you know what I mean: an, lui, ji, peng etc vs Snake Creeps Down etc). There are applications that 'look like' a posture in the form, but that is merely happenstance that the combination that I pulled out in that context is similiar to one of the combinations in the form.

"- let's use an analogy.

- different exercises, such as push ups, and sit ups, have definite purposes. (agreed?)

- now, doing pushups will work your abs to a certain extent, but it is not correct to say the purpose of pushups is to work your abs.

- doing pushups will work your pecs, and triceps. - and there are other exercises that work your triceps. (overlap)

- but why say that there is no specific purpose for pushups? - there is no benefit from doing that."
** I'm not sure that the analogy works here - I kind of take your meaning but... (sorry if I'm off here). To me it's like scratching my head and saying 'that looks just like a bicep curl'... *confused analogy* :)

"i never said that there aren't multiple ways in which 'raise arms' can be used. - in fact, i specified that i like to use it in 5 specific ways. - BUT, i would have to give different weighting to different applications. e.g. i use it as a pull down / throw from behind; but that could also be considered 'Ahn'...

and, while i said 'raise arms' is used to teach a certain type of palm strike; i never specified exactly how it is used. - there are so many different ways. - it's simple, and versatile. - it can be used against straight punches, hook punches, kicks, grabs... it can be used offensively, in different directions... etc.

that is it's purpose.

of course i also sometimes use it is in a deflecting/parrying manner, where the 'energy' used is much 'lighter'... but it's still the same technique."
** I think a lot of the differences are in how we train - if I trained postures as application then I'd look at it differently. I train differently though - lots of pushing hands with lots of pauses to say 'wow, look at that, I just did something that looked like [insert posture here]' and then when I train the form I think of the feeling of that moment, but I try to think in terms of the 13 postures rather than the specific posture, so I break it down further. Verging on semantics I guess.

"... i hope i've been somewhat comprehensible, in trying to convey my meaning..."
Yes you have - apologies for the extensive quoting :)

On single whip (a posture I find incredibly difficult to break down into specific energies - seems to be ward off and a wrenching lui/pluck on the 'hooked' arm) - anyway, I tend to use it as a neck grab. That's how it comes out anyway - in close, if the position is right then my right hand goes over his left shoulder (it sticks to the inside of his left arm on the way, so it's not leaving my right side undefended), waist fires the arm around the neck, then wrenches the head into my right shoulder. It also works on the outside as well if you step forward and right - often ends up as a choke like that. Lots of other stuff has come out from it as well, but that one repeats quite often for me.

Paul/Kaitain

[MaFuYee]

kaitan,

hi. great post. thanks for the reply.

re: seating wrists.

i think i understand now, what you mean by seating. - do you prefer to strike with the heel of the palm? - i tend to strike with the entire palm, but i have recently been playing around with concentrating more on using the heel of the palm when doing this palm strike. (what a coinkidink!) - i'm not sure yet if i prefer using more the heel of the palm, but i recently modified the way i show this strike, because i was showing these girls how to do it, but they were doing more of a slap, than a 'strike'. - it was a little better when they used the heel of the palm, but, personally, i think it may just be a kind of 'crutch'. (to use the heel of the palm. - not a real substitute for iron palm training.)

did you see tentiger's post, about the elbows dropping first? - i suspect that you may also be dropping the elbows first. - wouldn't they almost have to?

***

i guess i'm a bit at a loss, regarding the 13 "postures". - i must admit, i've never really understood them too well. (we're talking about the 8 energies, and 5 directions, right? - not litterally 13 postures...) - we do talk about them when discussing applications in class; but it's more along the lines of, 'see, this is plucking, and this is splitting...' (using single whip as an example. - we don't use peng for single whip. - it looks like it could be peng, going by the way the movement is done in the form; but in application, we most often use single whip as a 'straight out' palm strike, very much like hsing-i's pi-chuan. - the hooking hand is kept close to the body, in front of your centerline.)

* which brings up another point. [other points]

when you said:



...the Grasp Sparrows sequence is like a 'mini-manual' for me. It's the rawest form of the primary hands, unadulterated by application. Just repeated again and again in the form to hammer the movements home in their vitalness. Then you recognise their feeling in other movements within the form...


- i definitely agree that it's repetition is indicitive of it's importance, but...

- when you say, 'unadulterated by application', aren't you implying that the other postures in the form are "adulterated by application", meaning, the postures are representative of application(s)?

HA! - got ya!

why is it, that such a large number of tai chi folks out there, seem to almost have a disdain for "applications"??? (i can understand if you are a smelly, pot smoking, tree hugging, vegan, hippie) - or at least, any 'fixed applications'. - you tell them, 'this is how to use single whip', and they'll start flipping out, about how there are INFINITE applications... which is just a bunch of malarky, if you think about it. - what is bad about fixed applications? - do you have to spontaneously re-invent the wheel, every time you fight, in order to do tai chi?

(i'm just nitpicking. - i don't want to make too much out of your choice of words.)


BUT... here is the BIG ONE...

how can you "recognize their feeling"???

i didn't realize that you could manifest the energies while doing the form. (!) - i thought the energies were only manifested in application!

please refer to this link on the 'song of the 8 postures' (8 energies) as reference.

Song of 8 postures (http://yangtcc.com/classics5.html)


if we use "peng"/ward off as an example, it says, "The entire body is filled with springlike energy,
opening and closing in a very quick moment." - how could you do that, while doing the form? (slow, and by yourself; not using it against someone, or something??)

like i said before, i'm no expert on the 8 energies, and maybe i'm really missing something big here, but... do you understand what i'm trying to say here?

- can you "roll back" air? - how can you roll back something, when you're given nothing?


** re: "...with part mane I'd say it was composed of pull-down and lui..."

i think lieh/pull down, is different. - the energy used in the actual 'pull down' posture, "application", is not the same as the waist turn in part mane/diagonal flying.

furthermore, from "The Song of K'ao",
In Diagonal Flying Posture use shoulder,
but within the shoulder technique
there is also some use of the back.

here, T'an Meng-hsien pretty much spells out, that in 'diagonal flying', it is the shoulder/kao energy being used. - now, i called it part mane, but i often use those 2 names interchangably - just like lift hands, and play pipa. - whatever... i think he's talking about the same application.

** and, i didn't ask what it was composed of, i asked what you'd call it. ;) (nice try though.)


re: "if you see the form as being made up of the 13 postures in various combinations, then any posture is merely a combination of these basic elements."

i would say that the 13 "postures" are the basic elements of tai chi (applications), however, as i've argued, i don't think you can manifest the 8 energies while doing the form.

i'm guessing from what i've read so far, that you would wholeheartedly disagree with my idea, but, please, i would really like to hear your take on it. - if i am wrong, i'd really like to know.


re: "I think the postures are guidance for developing your own combinations of the 13 postures"

ok, so the majority of postures, (single whip, brush knee, fist under elbow, box ears, part mane, etc. etc.) are there to help you formulate your own combinations of the 13 postures?

- but, what is the purpose of formulating your own combinations of the 13 postures? - to serve as more guidance for more postures??

ask yourself, which came first? application, or form?

before there was 'tai chi chuan', wasn't it just a collection of fighting techniques? - maybe starting off as just a few (13 perhaps); and then over the years, growing in number, as skilled fighters added to the repoitoire, based on the principles of the original few?


- if the postures were meant to serve as a guideline for making your own combinations of the 8 energies, and 5 directions, wouldn't it make a hell of a lot of sense to organize it in some logical fashion? - e.g. start the form with the 8 individual energies, one at a time, then add the 5 directions, and then go into some combinational order? - e.g. 1st and 2nd energy, next posture, 1st and 3rd energy, next, 1st and 4th, etc. etc....

no, in my opinion, the argument that the postures are just meant as guidelines, does not hold water.

take a posture like snake creeps down.
which of the 13 'postures' is it a combination of? - actually, you can't tell by the posture alone; you have to know the application. - does it have ward off? - it could, depending on how it is used, but not all the time, does it have roll back? - again, it depends on how you're using it. - does it have 'shoulder'... 'pull down'...

do you see why i say you can't manifest the energies in the form? - the manifestations are based on application.

i would go so far as to say that if you got creative enough, you can create an application to manifest any energy, using any posture.

...

heyzeus! - sleep beckons.
- looking forward to more enlightening discussions.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Sometimes the essence of the art is lost in the over-analysis of it..

One can, indeed, manifest the energies during solo practice..

The form is a guideline, it links various postures and energies to demonstrate the flowing nature of Tai Chi.. The worry is that too many practicioners can't adapt outside the Form.. situations that require flow outside of their rehearsed form confuse them.. That we would confine Tai Chi to a prescribed set of movements in a prescribed order is somewhat counter to its Taoist root philosophy..

This is, of course, only my own humble opinion, but.. i sense that the form is only the training ground for the expression of the energy.. it is the intricate body mechanics shaped by the form that provides the vehicle for the most efficient expression of the energy.. Those same body mechanics must be adaptable to the myriad of potential situations in order for the energy to be equally effective..

Anyhow, be well..

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob

Sometimes the essence of the art is lost in the over-analysis of it..

That we would confine Tai Chi to a prescribed set of movements in a prescribed order is somewhat counter to its Taoist root philosophy..

This is, of course, only my own humble opinion, but.. i sense that the form is only the training ground for the expression of the energy.. it is the intricate body mechanics shaped by the form that provides the vehicle for the most efficient expression of the energy.. Those same body mechanics must be adaptable to the myriad of potential situations in order for the energy to be equally effective..


Which is why I am drawn ultimately to ba gua, where at the highest level of practice, there is no set form, only energy expressed through constant change.

[The Willow Sword]

quote"hello all,

i'd like to ask all of you how you like to use the "opening posture" of tai chi.

(the first movement of most yang style forms)" end quote.


I commonly know this first movement as "sinking step followed by the rising of the tide"

I seem to think that this has no real fighting or defensive applications. All that this movement is designed to do is establish your root to the earth and get into the "wuji" state of being.

now in the pakua classics there is a move called "black bear turns its body" which essentially is the same posture but you are turning into the low stance which might be utilized to throw an opponent if one is grabbed from behind, the movement also has the downward thrusting of the shoulders(to simulate the turning of the black bear).
i use this example to compare to the tai chi opening posture and the similarity in combat as opposed to the gathering of chi from the root and distributing it through the body to create the "wuji" state.

anyone care to discuss further? i love rappin about tha taichi.
:)

Many respects,, The Willow Sword

[MaFuYee]

tcbob,

you're funny! - try as i might, i can't make a lick of sense out of what you are trying to say.

lets take it one step at a time.


Sometimes the essence of the art is lost in the over-analysis of it.

what are you, a cult leader? - are you really afraid you'll "lose the essence of tai chi", if you think about it? - aren't you effectively saying, "don't use your brain"?

what are you really afraid of?



One can, indeed, manifest the energies during solo practice.

since i don't claim to be the 'final authority' on tai chi, i gave reasons to explain why i believe you can't be manifesting energies while doing the form...

you make a very bold claim, stating it as fact, when in actuality, it is merely opinion... (and you know what they say about those...)



The form is a guideline, it links various postures and energies to demonstrate the flowing nature of Tai Chi.

if i cut out the carp, am i to understand you are saying, "the form demonstrates the nature of the universe / universal principles"?

- or were you really saying, the form demonstrates the nature of 'the form'?



The worry is that too many practicioners can't adapt outside the Form.

can't adapt WHAT, outside the form? - adapt for what purpose?


situations that require flow outside of their rehearsed form confuse them.

require flow(?) outside of their rehearsed form, FOR WHAT??


That we would confine Tai Chi to a prescribed set of movements in a prescribed order is somewhat counter to its Taoist root philosophy..

to confine [Tai Chi] (the form? -or- the universal principle?) to a set of movements in a prescribed order [a "form"]... is counter to taoist philosophy?

so, either:
- to confine [the universal principle] to a [form], (a set of movements in a prescribed order) is counter to taoist philosophy.

or

- to confine [the form] to a "form", is counter to taoist philosophy?


* where the heck are you comming from?? - what are you replying to?? - do you always throw random statements from left field like that?



the form is only the training ground for the expression of the energy.. it is the intricate body mechanics shaped by the form that provides the vehicle for the most efficient expression of the energy.. Those same body mechanics must be adaptable to the myriad of potential situations in order for the energy to be equally effective..

maybe you were right about overanalysis afterall...

do you remember exactly when, you adopted the predilection for writing like a new age pothead?
:D

seriously... i wasn't going to reply to your post, but since kaitan hasn't replied yet, i thought i'd just pass some time...


what do you believe is the purpose of "expressing energy"?

in order for energy to be equally effective for what?

nlp'ers would call that "deletion". - you've got big gaping holes in your paradigm.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Well.. after reading your "analysis" of my simple statements, i can understand why you can't "make a lick of sense" out of it.

"overanalysis".. The predisposition of some to conjure confusion where there is none.. My intended meaning was too much intellectualizing defeats the simplicity of just doing it.. No, i am not a cult leader (but your reference makes me wonder if you fear competition).. I fear people like you, looking to conjure conflict..

"you make a very bold claim, stating it as fact, when in actuality, it is merely opinion... (and you know what they say about those...)"....... I merely state my own experience, which for me is fact.. your experiences differ, as do your facts..

" if i cut out the carp, am i to understand you are saying, "the form demonstrates the nature of the universe / universal principles"? ".... if you cut out the "carp", i wouldn't feel compelled to respond to such nonsense.. The sentence you refer to is complete, concise and exactly what "i" intended it to say.. That you intend to show some mastery of linguistics, or assert your own agenda on someone else's opinions, is your own cross to bear..

The rest of your post is lost in it's own attempt at something which is not entirely clear to me.. but, if you require the "See spot run" version of my posts, please feel free to e-mail me for translations into Second Grade grammar..

"do you remember exactly when, you adopted the predilection for writing like a new age pothead?"... This is comical, after reading the last half of your post.. i couldn't smoke enough weed to make sense of it if i wanted to.. But, i write according to my own experiences, not to fit your model (paradigm, if you want accolades for new age buzz words)..

"what do you believe is the purpose of "expressing energy"?"
I believe that the expression of energy, or more accurately the consciously aware expression of energy since we express energy continually anyhow.. is for whatever purpose we choose, self-defense, healing, writing posts in this forum, etc.. it is the conscious awareness that i, personally, find to be the difference between mundane existence and extra-ordinary existence.. Specifically, for Tai Chi, the purpose is to enhance the bio-mechanical function of the body, to enhance it through an understanding of how the energy can be utilized to compliment the bio-mechanical functions.. the understanding, by my own experience, is gained through training, Tai Chi training..

"in order for energy to be equally effective for what?"
Specifically, for self-defense.. The inferred meaning was that training should be balanced between body, mind and spirit to effectively express the principles of Tai Chi..

Now.. I'm certain that you will find much fodder for another assault on my perspectives of Tai Chi, and i wish you well in that endeavor.. it seems to amuse you.. Please understand that even the most superficial of us know that we can only express our own opinions, that no one has the keys to the "universal principals" you so fondly speak of.. we simply try our best.. OR, we each have the keys, we're just trying to figure out how to use them.. oh well, musings for another time..

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my previous post.. regardless of your intention..

Be well.. enjoy the holidays..

[count]

A side of you I thought we'd never see.
But even your arguments are like Tai Chi,
Let's see the response from Ma Fu Yee.

Well what do you expect at 6 in the morning?:D

[Sam Wiley]

An application for the opening move?

Sure.

But first, a little more detail.

Ahem....

The weight does not remain on both feet. The only time you are to be double weighted is at the very beginning of the form, the very end, and in transitions or weight shifts. In the first two cases, you aren't even doing the form yet, and have finished, and in the third, you're shifting weight so it's not even really double weighted.

Now, once you start moving, your entire body should be in motion and your weight should be constantly shifting. So if you begin your form, and lift your arms, your weight should be shifting. If you are going to step out with your left foot into P'eng, the weight will shift first onto the right heel, then the right ball of the foot, then the left ball of the foot, and then the left heel. When the weight reaches the left foot, you are already moving into the next posture.

Applications can be simple, such as a block and a push, or a pulldown, etc. Or they can get more complex, such as blocking a right punch with your right P'eng as you V-step out to the left turning your toes in to face him. As you plant your left foot, your right palm (which has grabbed his elbow during the transition), jerks his elbow, pulling him onto your left palm strike. Cross step behind with your right foot and move the left foot across into a proper stance (letting go of his elbow, of course), then slam down on top of his shoulders with both hands and pull him to the ground.

That's probably my favorite one.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

AARRRGGGHH... i should have known better than to respond before my third cup of coffee... oh well... :D

[MaFuYee]

tcbob;

i have no desire to "conjure confusion", as you claim. my desire is just the opposite. - what i asked was simple.

1st. - how do people out there like to use the the opening posture.

2nd. - which came as an aside, brought up by kaitan; how can one manifest the various energies, while doing the tai chi form? (i didn't know it was possible. - i was taught that the energies are manifested in application.)

- in your first respone, you gave an example. - an example of how ward off is used. ("... and "ward-off" applies force/energy..." - you won't be warding off anyone, if the force/energy isn't there. - which is why i say that 'ward-off' is energy is not manifested when practicing the from. - an issue you have avoided.)

in your third post, you stated that 'raise arms' is used to initiate the contact, and little else. - here is a point i disagree with. - i agree with ten tigers that raise arms is used to teach the proper body mechanics of a very important (read, often used) palm strike.

i feel, if tai chi practitioners are overlooking the importance, and significance of the very first posture, they may be making a big mistake.

(does this sound like i'm overanalyzing? - trying to conjure confusion?)


Tai Chi is like fractal images.. each movement opens limitless opportunity..
it's talk like this that i think, "conjures confusion". - it sounds nice, in a hippy kind of way, but it does naught to foster a deeper understanding of tai chi.

student: how do i use single whip?
"teacher": it's like a fractal. - it opens limitless opportunities.
(what student learned: "0")

you say, "Opening posture is not a fixed application," - however, you had previously said that raise arms is to initiate contact, as a precursor to something else. - that sounds like a 'fixed application' to me. ('this is what it's used for.' => fixed application.)

how can it be that 'each movement opens limitless opportunity', but yet, you take raise arms to be essentially trivial. - if i want to ward off, i can make the initial contact with ward off. - i don't need to use raise arms and then go into ward off. - if i want to 'single whip', i don't need to use raise arms first. you just 'single whip'.


* do you disagree with the idea that raise arms is used to teach a palm strike, as suggested? - do you find this analysis to be incorrect? if so, why? - what do you find to be incorrect about it?

instead of addressing this, the real issue, i get:

Sometimes the essence of the art is lost in the over-analysis of it..
which is really just a slap in the face. - especially upon reading your definition of 'overanalysis'. - now, i'm a 'conjuror of confusion', without the essence of the art. - wonderful.

then, this enlightening statement:

One can, indeed, manifest the energies during solo practice..
- with no explanation; just followed by more hippy talk. ("0")

which you never clarified for me. - i would love a "see spot run" translation. - maybe i am too stupid to understand your words of wisdom. i can accept that premise. - but being stupid doesn't mean i'm not right. - even an idiot can say "the sun is shining" and be right some of the time.

please post your translation here. - and you better make it with first grade grammar, so even an idiot like myself might understand it.

thank you.

[taijiquan_student]

This doesn't have to do with the debate, but anyway...Ma, how do you see raising the arms as being a palm strike? I can't seem to see the preparation move being a palm strike.
Sure, you can lift your arms up and hit someone, but as far as that being an application for the opening movement, that's stretching a little.
Could you explain this application? Sorry to deviate from the somewhat curteous mud-slinging already going on.:) Thanks.

[Sam Wiley]

You could conceivably flick the fingers up under the nose as well.

He doesn't mean the raising of the palms, but when they are lowered.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Please re-read my first few posts.. i have offered several applications of the opening posture. But, in short, "my" understanding is that it is also referred to as "beginning Tai Chi".. from Wuji we begin Tai Chi (from stillness there begins motion/change).. This motion/change is in response to stimulus like incoming aggressive energy, the raising of the arms/hands intercepts this incoming energy.. Now, since your original query is limited to the raising arms movement i will stop here.

Manifesting energy.. if i fire a handgun, the bullet has manifested sufficient energy to kill or maim, it does not need to prove its point by striking someone.. By my own understanding, the reason we train is to actually manifest those energies in a controlled environment so that when needed we can use them efficiently.. if i'm not manifesting energies in my practice i'm just dancing.. How you train may be different, so be it.

Tai Chi is like fractal images.. If you haven't been training long enough, or had the benefit of a good teacher.. this may sound foreign or like "hippy" talk.. The point is that from each posture, each transition we are not confined by prescribed form.. Tai Chi is about adapting to the situation, applying the principles where appropriate. The form teaches the principles and demonstrates various transitions/links that should give the astute practicioner the basis for situational adaptablilty. Just a friendly suggestion, get over the "hippy" or anything else prejudice, judge each person on their merits not "your" prejudices..

I do not limit any aspect of Tai Chi, except to categorize an application's usefullness.. i do not find a "palm-strike" to be particularly effective from a double weighted raising hands posture, but that's just me. Now, my students get detailed instruction on application(s) for each posture, each movement.. we test it, we drill it, we use it.. if i "mention" to them that Tai Chi is like fractal images, they understand it from a pragmatic point of view.. they do not attempt some uptight semantic debate based on personal prejudices..

Now, in the spirit of the Season, i wish you well.. i hope you can accept "my" response as "mine", and your perception as "yours".. spend some time enjoying the holidays, it may soften your perception..

Be well..

[MaFuYee]

taijiquan student;

sam is right. - the palm strike is the arms comming down. - as done in iron palm training exercises. (ignore the part about, flicking fingers under people's noses. -feh! sam, i flick my nose in your general direction!)

in application, obviously the movement is abbreviated, single handed, and done at full speed.

practicing the movement as in the form, teaches the body connection, and the relaxed wave like whipping motion.

can be used practically as such:
A and B start facing each other, both with hands raised in 'boxing guard' position.
A punches. - B sidesteps, and does a single handed, downward whipping palm strike to the top of A's wrist, or upper forearm, by the elbow crease.

simple, right?


bob;

re: offered several applications...

i re-read all the posts, and i don't see them. - you did give "deflecting an opponent to your right" as an application for "beginning tai chi"/"raise arms". (one application.)

then, you described ward off. (not 'raise arms')

then in the next post, you describe 'grasp'. (not 'raise arms')

then you gave the, "sink while collapsing your grasp onto the opponent's biceps", interpretation of 'raise arms', (this is the one that is most often shown in tai chi mags, as the application. - and also the application i was describing in my first post. "i most often see the application of this being shown against a two handed grab, where you bring your arms up between the attackers arms, grab them and pull his arms down") followed by 'push'.

so... there was 'deflect', and the re-statement of the application in my original post. - it really wasn't "several".


"beginning tai chi" - yes. that's what we call it too. - but, the original query was not limited to only the raising of the arms, but also the lowering, (re-read my first post. "you raise your arms to shoulder level, bring them in to your chest, and then lower them to your waist.") thus completing the first movement of the form, which i refer to as "raise arms". (also known as "beginning tai chi")

re: handgun analogy.
faulty analogy. - it is completely laughable to compare someone doing the yang tai chi form, to a handgun being fired. (think about it.)

if you are using "fa-jing", maybe one can argue that energy is being manifested; but, that was clearly never the argument. - it was from the first, "can one manifest energies while doing the tai chi FORM?"


i do not find a "palm-strike" to be particularly effective from a double weighted raising hands posture, ...

what a ridiculous suggestion!
you sermonize about "not being confined to a prescribed form", and "adapting to the situation"...

but i think it's YOU who is confined to a prescribed form; unable to adapt.

forms and applications are different. - you think that when i use "beginning tai chi"/"raise arms", in application, that it must look like the form?? (sounds like quite a 'confined' way of looking at things. - can't you adapt with the flow, and see how the palm strike would be used? - why must you adhere so rigidly to the 'prescribed form'?)

you say the first posture is only used to establish contact. (something that can be done using any posture.) fine.

if you think that that is all it is, i say you are missing the point of the movement entirely.

- which is too bad, because "beginning tai chi" is so fundamental. - it is perhaps the 'first' thing that should be taught to anyone who wants to learn how to fight using tai chi chuan.

re: hippy prejudice.
return friendly suggestion: why don't you get over your prejudice against people who are prejudiced against hippies. (do you believe your self, to be free from prejudices?)

re: uptight semantic debate.
i never argued the semantics of the statement, "tai chi is like fractal images...". - and frankly, i can't see how anyone can understand it from a "pragmatic point of view", except to simply accept it as 'poetic', at best, meaningless and incorrect at worst.

semantics came into play when i was trying to understand what in the world you were talking about. - i think things are starting to piece together in my mind, now that i understand that you don't differentiate between form and application. ("this is what it looks like when i do the form... that is what it must look like in application.")

- also, i infer from your replies that you were not refering to "Tai Chi", the universal principle, but rather 'tai chi' the art.

-> the form demonstrates the flowing nature of the art. (i really didn't know if that is what you were saying.) is that really the PURPOSE of the form? - to demonstrate the flowing nature of tai chi chuan? - think! how silly that sounds!

i was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, and see if you were actually saying that the purpose of the form is like that of the i-ching, to demonstrate the universal principles of constant change.

i feel the form is a reference manual for martial applications. (if you can 'read' it.)


re: Tai Chi is like fractal images => we are not confined by prescribed form.

this does not compute. - 'tai chi is like fractal images', does not imply, not being 'confined by form'. - in fact, it implies the exact opposite, as fractal images are by definition, repetitions of a prescribed form (equations).


also,

i thought you were from the 'no fixed applications' school of thought. - but from your last post, it would seem otherwise.

... and i'd still like the 'see spot run' translation of how one can manifest energies while doing the form.

[count]

Originally posted by MaFuYee
... and i'd still like the 'see spot run' translation of how one can manifest energies while doing the form.

Here! (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&threadid=18550)

I'm not sure why you want to argue for 4 pages with a man who has 6 times the experience as you about opening tai chi. Each style has different interpretations of open. It can be split and pull down too of you only do one side. Maybe if you understand what it feels like to "menifest energy" in your form or practice, this argument becomes a useless exercise. As useless as practicing your form to learn how to fight.;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Count: thanks <respectful bows>

MaFuYee: I stand corrected, obviously i haven't grasped the universal form.. Your crusade against my ignorance has prevailed..

To all that have followed this exercise in triteness (mine in particular), i apologize.

May the New Year bring us ALL more:
Compassion
Patience
Tolerance
Experience
Wisdom
and Opportunity

Be well, may whatever you perceive to be the source of your blessings smile generously upon you..

[taijiquan_student]

Ma--Thanks for the application. Because the posture is double weighted, I've never seen taiji as beginning until you shift the weight onto the left foot after bringing down the arms.

If you can use that application, more power to you, but for me, I'm not so sure. I've used strikes to the arms in sanshou before (I think that same point on the forearm by the inside crease of the elbow), and they don't really do much. I've had them done to me too, and there is very little effect. Maybe I'm just not good enough yet, but a palm strike to the arm from a double weighted position doesn't sound too effective for me.

I'm not too sure I see how you would practice a whipping motion in the form, either. Your weight is evenly distributed between your two feet, and it is just your arms that are raising. I don't see how you would be generating a wave-like and whipping power just by moving your arms.

Oh, and not to intrude on your thing with taichibob, but you said "if you are using "fa-jing", maybe one can argue that energy is being manifested; but, that was clearly never the argument. - it was from the first, "can one manifest energies while doing the tai chi FORM?"
The way I've learned, there IS fajing in the form (yes, even when we do the CMC form), it's just not very apparent unless you're looking for it. Fajing in the form doesn't always need to be done a la "wildman" Erle Montaigue.;)

Thanks.

[The Willow Sword]

quote"hello all,

i'd like to ask all of you how you like to use the "opening posture" of tai chi.

(the first movement of most yang style forms)" end quote.


I commonly know this first movement as "sinking step followed by the rising of the tide"

I seem to think that this has no real fighting or defensive applications. All that this movement is designed to do is establish your root to the earth and get into the "wuji" state of being.

now in the pakua classics there is a move called "black bear turns its body" which essentially is the same posture but you are turning into the low stance which might be utilized to throw an opponent if one is grabbed from behind, the movement also has the downward thrusting of the shoulders(to simulate the turning of the black bear).
i use this example to compare to the tai chi opening posture and the similarity in combat as opposed to the gathering of chi from the root and distributing it through the body to create the "wuji" state.

anyone care to discuss further? i love rappin about tha taichi.

[MaFuYee]

count,

i don't know why you have such a hardon for tcbob, but, whatever the reason, i really don't care. - u say that 'beginning tai chi' can be used as 'split' or 'pulldown', and i agree with that statement. - the energy manifested would be dependent on the application. - that's what i've been saying all along.

tcbob's pov is that 'beginning tai chi' is not used, other than to initiate contact.

6x my experience, and that is what he really thinks?

6x my experience, and all that is offered are poetic platitudes with little meaning, and opinions stated as truth, with no foundation, and not a single straight answer to the questions posed... someone (hopefully more than one person) out there must see the lunacy of it all. - they just don't post their agreement on this msgbrd. (probably smart.)


Maybe if you understand what it feels like to "menifest energy" in your form or practice, this argument becomes a useless exercise. As useless as practicing your form to learn how to fight.

i know what i feel when i practice the form. but, i don't mistake that feeling for "manifesting energies". - and it is sad that somebody with 6x my 'experience' should make this novice mistake.

unlike some, i didn't start learning tai chi so i could 'become one with the universe'; i had one motivation; to learn to fight.

is that useless? - perhaps. - look down your nose at me if you like. it doesn't bother me one bit.


tcbob

MaFuYee: I stand corrected, obviously i haven't grasped the universal form.. Your crusade against my ignorance has prevailed..

i don't know of what 'universal form' you speak, but, 'beginning tai chi' you haven't 'grasped'.

my my my, don't we have a penchant for the dramatic and overstated... what you call my "crusade", consisted of little more than asking a few rather simple questions. - "overanalysis", as you claim... - which, as i have pointed out, you answered none. - and incase you were too busy nursing your bruised ego to even remember what the question was: "how one can manifest energies while doing the form?"


taijistudent;
don't confuse form with application. - they are different. - when using it in application, you are not double weighted, and neither are you using both hands to simultaneously strike.

whipping power comes with the body connection, (body rises as arms raise, body sinks as arms lower. - it's more subtle when applying it.)

re: I've used strikes to the arms in sanshou before...and they don't really do much.

well, this particular usage is simply a generic block/strike. - certainly not a 'killing' technique. - but, when done with power, what this strike does, is cross the person's centerline, and set up for any number of followups.


willow sword;

I seem to think that this has no real fighting or defensive applications.

well, it seems, there are many here that would agree with you.

perhaps that is what prompted my to start the thread in the first place.

personally, i see a lot of meaning in it.

i have trouble understanding how someone with 6x my experience sees so little in it.

i guess it's just a matter of how deep one wants to dig. - when you first learn the movement, you ask, 'what is this for?' and you get a simple answer, 'to establish root, and get into wuji.' - and that is where you leave it for the next 30 years...

on one level, that answer is correct. - however, wouldn't you agree that that could be construed as a rather superficial understanding?

[The Willow Sword]

on one level, that answer is correct. - however, wouldn't you agree that that could be construed as a rather superficial understanding?

I dont think it to be superficial. If that is what the beginning posture was intended for, then why dissect it to find possible applications? i know that we would like to think that every little movement has some hidden purpose in combat but when you look at the practical and simple side of taichi you will find that simplicity is the essence of the very movements and postures.

besides in your qoute about``
i guess it's just a matter of how deep one wants to dig. - when you first learn the movement, you ask, 'what is this for?' and you get a simple answer, 'to establish root, and get into wuji.' - and that is where you leave it for the next 30 years...

it will take that long to establish wuji and proper root anyway.
why go anyfurther when you will forget what the intended purpose is for? that is why i made reference to the pakua movement :black bear turns its body: this in fact does have a defensive and combative application to it. it is easy to see and to apply. when you read the old masters philosophy about fighting and the forms within,,they will always tell you the same thing.
`;simplicity is always best.;

Many Respects,,The Willow Sword

[MaFuYee]

willow sword,


If that is what the beginning posture was intended for, then why dissect it to find possible applications?

actually, i don't really believe that the purpose of it, is to establish root; because, in 'beginning tai chi', you go into wuji before your arms even begin to rise. - your root is already established in wuji.


...simplicity is the essence of the very movements and postures...

actually, i couldn't agree more. - i don't know why people are so enamored with the whole notion of 'fractal images', and 'limitless opportunity', and whatnot. - energy this, and energy that... i've always said, it's much simpler than that.

*however, i do believe that all postures are derrived from martial principles. - otherwise, what purpose does it serve? - why do you raise your arms and then lower them again?

** it does not take over 30 years to 'establish root'. - don't be silly.

* you say that the bagua version has martial applications; why? because you can easily see the applications? - well, i can just as easily see the applications for the tai chi version, and know for certain, as you do regarding the bagua, what it is used for. (it must be remembered, form and application are not the same. - you MUST differentiate between the two. - tai chi often hides the footwork, and things are 'stretched out', into large frame, etc etc.)

[The Willow Sword]

you go into wuji before your arms even begin to rise. - your root is already established in wuji.

your root is not necessarily established in wuji when standing.
the wuji state ,as it were, is the frame of mind that you are in when you begin. sometimes you stand there for 15 minutes or even more before you ever begin to sink in to the beginning posture just to get into the frame of mind.




however, i do believe that all postures are derrived from martial principles. - otherwise, what purpose does it serve? - why do you raise your arms and then lower them again?

The rising of the tide or "raising your arms and lowering them" is essentially "bringing the chi up the midline taking the path of fire,or water (depending on preference), and channeling it or "washing" the chi throughout the body and eventually down to the feet to establish the "root".



it does not take over 30 years to 'establish root'. - don't be silly

i specifically stated "it will take that long to establish wuji and proper root anyway."
believe me when i tell you that when the old masters say that it takes almost a lifetime to master wuji and root. they literally mean it. those who will tell you otherwise are not being sincere.
there IS a difference in feeling like you have mastered or established wuji and root, and KNOWING that you have established or mastered wuji or root. i have mastered neither,,but i know enough now to discern that i am on the right path. i do the best that i can:) .



well, i can just as easily see the applications for the tai chi version, and know for certain, as you do regarding the bagua, what it is used for.

You sure? i guess the best way to find out is have a fellow student attack you as you go into the beginning posture. have him or her punch at you kick you,,grab you,,etc.
have you done this,,or is it still theory at this stage?

Many respects,,The Willow Sword

[Sam Wiley]

MaFuYee,
Not a flick as in knuckle to fingernail...a flick as in dantien to fingertip. Extremely painful if you hit the spot where the nose meets the upper lip. This is one of my personal variations on the move, based on a movement from Bagua called Hawk Catches Prey. Do the flick as described and with fa-jing, and you will hear a muffled pop almost as if you twisted up a wet towel and popped it in mid-air.

Besides, whoever said your hand has to remain open? An upward snapping backfist to the chin isn't likely to be pleasant.

PS- Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries.:p

[RAF]

MaFuYee:

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/

If you got to Dan Docherty's website, under 5 components, to the short form and click on the applications/pictures of the "beginning" of the form. You will see pretty closely how Docherty opens the form and how he applies it.

The Yang taiji form I play has the same application except rather than grab the arms of the opponent, we strike two acupuncture points under the breast using a collapsing palm. You can also see by turning the body you could also employ a shoulder strike and a few other things.

Just saw Docherty's opening and realized its almost exactly how we do it.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/videos.htm

[les paul]

MaFuYee


Concerning this thread.....
Your headed down the right path.

The opening posture can be many things. i.e. an upward block quickly followed by a palm snap to the face or solarplex. This is usually what teach at first. Or while lifting your hands you can also step back and draw your opponent jing then double palm strike him in the face as he is sucked in. You can also use the movement and to pull down your opponents forearms and head butt him in the face! .........Now That's Taijiquan :)

These you probably already know

Point being, every movement in the Quan has mulitple martial applications. Nothing is done just for the sake of it and I mean nothing! literally......


For example all the toe in's that your feet make, are usually leg snags or drags to up root someone thats in close, usually followed by knee break or arm break etc... again you probably already know.

I like to tell my guys ....Think of the Quan as your hard drive.....and the aplications as your softwear.

Just thought I'd add some support