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View Full Version : Master Gin Foon Mark sets record straight!



Richard mantis
07-21-2000, 05:30 PM
In response to years of ridiculous controversy, Master Gin Foon Mark has decided to clear up some of the political problems surrounding Kwong Sai Jook Lum Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

Master Mark has dedicated his life to the preservation and continuation of this system. Many of the two person forms that teach timing and feeling were constructed by Master Mark and his partner, Chin Ho Dun. There is only one true master of his system - Gin foon Mark himself.Master Mark uses a renewable license system for authorizing students to teach his art. Students wishing to teach his art must dedicate themselves to the style by going through the "first Door" {Master Mark}.
They go through a ceremony and are then issued a certificate that is good for three years. After this three year period they must demonstrate that they are still dedicated to the style and have progressed in order to renew the certificate. Teachers without or with an expired certificate are not authorized members of Master Marks system.

This notice also very much applies to anyone who may have had a ceremony with Master Mark in the past, but has no license to teach under his name. Such a person is also not a member of Master Marks association.

Richard Mantis

Self-Thinking Follower
07-21-2000, 10:35 PM
How much does the first door cost?
Also how much does it cost to renew this certificate every three years?

It seems Two-man Forms are not the only thing Mark has invented!

Richard mantis
07-22-2000, 02:30 AM
Self thinking follower.
The specific terms are to be decided by Master Gin Foon Mark himself, not by me.

The "first door" was not invented by Master Mark but the licensing system had to be added
to clarify some political confusion.

Richard Mantis

word
07-22-2000, 08:57 AM
All of this sounds like another great marketing plan. Just like distant learning of kung fu from videos. You send your tape in after you learned the form, pay $, and they send you your certificate. All garbage. But the reasonable guy would say " Distant learning allows people that are interested in learning to learn from the comfort of their own homes. It is very flexible and it's like having your own sifu on tape." That's a load of sh!t if you ask me.

Richard mantis
07-22-2000, 05:29 PM
Yes nimblenuts, but have you read my post?
Does it say anything about tapes? No.

The certificate system applies only to people who are interested in teaching reguardless of how near or far they may be.And they must prove that they are still dedicated to the style and demonstrate that they have progressed. AS IT ALLREADY SAYS IN MY FIRST POST.

If you were familiar with some of the silly political problems Master Mark has had to deal with then you would understand why he wishes to better control those who teach under his name. Just ask the admin of this site about it.

MoQ
07-22-2000, 11:47 PM
Master Gin Foon Mark has every right to guard his system, by whatever means he deems necessary. WAY too many people try and use his name without his consent. This needs to be dealt with and it looks like he's trying to do just that.
Of course, there are those that do nothing but sit around on their a$ practicing their brand of idiot judgementalism, but who cares?

qy
07-23-2000, 12:08 PM
I agree whole-heartedly. If he did not use this system folks could complain about lack of quality contol in his lineage. Funny how so many folks think that it's not considered good to take care of your sifu. Especially when they are making money off of their name and lineage.

lkfmdc
07-23-2000, 07:51 PM
>> There is only one true master of his system - Gin foon Mark himself. <<<

This is a very interesting statement when you consider that Lam Sang's (Gin Foon Mark's teacher) son is alive and well and teaching the system in NYC. I suspect there might be some disagreement /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MoQ
07-23-2000, 11:39 PM
Is there disagreement that Master Mark is not only his senior, but possesses the Jook Lum altar?? Wasn't Gin Foon Mark a renowned and established Master before most of y'all were even born? For SOME, before your PARENTS were born? Wasn't he one of the first to teach authentic kung Fu on the mainland? Why are kids nowadays so...?

Heather
07-24-2000, 01:58 AM
Ikfmdc
It says "only one true master of HIS system:
Gin Foon Mark himself". Note the word HIS.

Refering to Gin Foon Mark's system of teaching which includes the two man break down forms that Gin Foon Mark teaches.

Lam Sang's son teaches in his own way.

Sam
07-24-2000, 05:46 AM
Are you speaking of Lam Sang Sifu's adopted son or blood son?

Constipated Wombat
07-24-2000, 07:15 PM
Okay. So Gin Foon Mark is the only master of his lineage. As lkf points out, there are other teachers as well. I'd be willing to bet there are other less public teachers here or in hong kong as well.

But then, I'm the sort who cares more about whether a thing works than about lineage. I know that's not tradition, but if it works a guy can call it Southern Mantis, Northern Mantis, Eastern Pickle Fist, or Constipated Wombat style for all I care. All this political bickering does is make people from outside the mantis system just shake their heads and wonder why everyone's being so silly instead of practicing.


------------------
grrrrrrrrrr. grrrrrrrr..
arrrrgggggggggghhhhhhh... grrrrrrrr <PLOP>
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

MoQ
07-25-2000, 12:44 AM
Dude, you ARE constipated... I know people nowadays respect nothing and view the Chinese martial traditions in a very mercenary way, but if you don't know d*ck about the problems a leader can have within the Lineage that they have responsibility over, why the heck even post? If you don't respect the traditions, why even offer an empty opinion? Master Mark has Lam Sang's altar and the lineage holder accoutrements. He probably(should) owns a copyright to the Jook Lum S. Mantis name.

"If it works use it" is ONE thing, but "If it works, call it anything you want" is absurd and excludes this opinion from any intelligent discussion...

BeiTangLang
07-25-2000, 06:22 PM
Now _THERE_ is a pet peve of mine, Copywriting a style. What idiocy is this?? Shall we copyright a certain way to breath as well?? A certain way to wipe our rear-ends? certainly one way has to be better than others! Jeez....... Whatever happened to the old "So you say you teach XXXXXX!!! Let me see your gung fu!" A beating occurs & one walks away not able to teach that style any more. Honor in the martial arts has gone to hell so to speak because wusses are lawyer happy & care more about what they can get rather than what they can give.
Sorry for the rant & no offence to anyone; This was just building up & ended up here.
Thanks in advance for your tollerance;
-BTL

MoQ
07-25-2000, 11:53 PM
Too many frauds, cheats, liars, acoundrels. Too many inexperienced people taken in by them. Copyright doesn't belong to anyone else but the lineage holders. If it weren't for Gin Foon Mark, no one would even know about S.Mantis. The Jook Lum lineage is his responsibility, and no one has d*ck to say about it.

I'll never understand why folks insist on posting that they don't care if it doesn't affect them directly.

[This message has been edited by MoQ (edited 07-26-2000).]

LinLee
08-18-2000, 04:57 PM
I really agree with protecting the name of a system. At the same time I also believe that whoever claims to be of a certain pai should be able to back it up with technique and not just be a figure head.

If a Sifu is really good at what he or she does, well then there is no reason to lie about their status, whether they are the "holder" of the system or not. Those who claim false titles are only hiding their lack of skills and are insecure.

It is even worse when senior close door disciples go on to support their Sifu's immoral behavior when they know it is not right.
Something to think about!!!

FIRE HAWK
08-18-2000, 06:31 PM
Hi lets not forget that there are other lineages of Jook Lum southern mantis Wong Yu Gong Jook Lum in mainland China and Hong Kong and in Great Britan there is also a lineage Lee Ying Sing Jook Lum who is a contempary of Wong Yu Gong and Lam Sang his lineage is in Great Britan and there are 2 students of his in the U.S.A it coud be possible that there might be other lineages that come from Chung Yu Chung.So for anybody to have the copy write name of Jook Lum would be very diffucult because of these other lineages. FIRE HAWK

MonkeySlap
08-18-2000, 08:44 PM
Just curious.

Gin Foon Mark says he invented the two man training in Southern Mantis. This seems a little odd to me, as two man training is a common facet in Chinese Martial Arts, and I know as a fact that Chu Gar mantis has very distinct two man forms and two man training.

I mean no disrespect, but what kind of two man training did Master Mark invent? I really am just curious, and mean no disresect. (and I know flamers use the same words, so I apologize for the bad monkeys out there.)

Je Lei Sifu
08-20-2000, 05:52 AM
With all due respect to all that have posted here. I am very ignorant of south mantis as a style. However, I have seen it performed on stage and at different martail arts events. I also believe it to be a vey powerful system.

My question here is, although Gin Foon Mark is a well-known and respected master, there are other masters such as Henry Poo Yee and Louie Jack Man, Who are also supposed to be students of Lam Sang.

If these three sifus are at all gung fu brothers, can someone share with me there knowledge of these other two masters? Louie Jack Man resides in Philadelphia, were I live, but I have not had the time to visit his school.

With much respect.

Je Lei Sifu http://216.219.234.88/forum/roundtable/cool.gif

dw3041
05-05-2006, 11:05 AM
I can't read these insults without putting my two cents in as well.

How dare you people accuse Gin Foon Mark of being more interested in money than in his loyalty to the art. He has been practicing kung fu for almost 80 years, someone wouldn't hold this much interest in one thing only to sell out after this long.

Gin Foon Mark is "the" master of Kwong Sai Jook Lum Praying Mantis Kung Fu and he has the alter to prove it. The reason he has to have a renewable system of licensing is because after he is gone the style will be gone as well unless he plans on passing on his title of master, which is not likely since his best student still doesn't know the complete style and Master Mark is fading. If he didn't have this term for licensing teaching, then there would be too many people who don't even know the entire style teaching under his name after he is gone. In this case, even if Gin Foon Mark did pass on his title as master, the title would be nothing more than that; a title.

It should only be up to the master whether or not someone should be allowed to teach their style, and in the above case the new master would have no say. The title of master is, and should be, the only real permanent license to teach. Any other teaching that has not been approved by the master is a mockery to the style; the style that Gin Foon Mark has dedicated his whole life to.

Gin Foon Mark is also the only reason we have this style in the US. The other students of this style would not teach to anyone who was not chinese, but Gin Foon Mark thought that all people were equal and should have a right to this knowledge. This man, who is praised in china, was willing to teach Americans who have no idea how important he is. He entrusted us with his life's work, and all you can do is insult him.

Gin Foon Mark can not be expected to dishonor his teachers and the entire style by just letting anyone teach incorrectly, what has been built and preserved over so many generations.

Show the man some respect!

htowndragon
05-05-2006, 11:37 AM
please dont get started about who the lineage holder is. theres a family issue behind it and its no ones business.

Hard Fists
05-05-2006, 12:11 PM
I think this conversation ended about 6 years ago:)

lkfmdc
05-05-2006, 01:17 PM
There is only one true master of his system - Gin foon Mark himself.



Well, isn't that conveinent :rolleyes:

Is it just me, or doesn't seem whenever someone proclaims THEMSELF the "only" and "true" you sort of start to think they are full of it?




Master Mark uses a renewable license system for authorizing students to teach his art.



Because, as we all already know, even if you practice an art for 35 years, after three years you forget all of it and lose the ability to do it! :eek:

And the fact you get a new fee every three years is a nice perk ;)





they must demonstrate that they are still dedicated to the style



dedicated = check, credit card or cash equivalency :cool:

dw3041
05-05-2006, 01:43 PM
Whether or not Master Mark is actually the master has nothing to do with lineage. The title is passed down to whomever the former master thinks is worthy. Besides, it's hard to argue against the fact that Master Mark has the alter. I mean, if he somehow managed to unrightfully take the alter and keep it out of the hands of all the other supposed "masters" of the style, then it's clear that he deserves it anyway.

All this aside, I've met him and I've also met a few people who have known him for 20 plus years and they will all tell you that he is not the kind of person who would do something like that, so unless you actually know him personally, please stop making accusations.

Shadow Skill
05-05-2006, 03:54 PM
Gin Foon Mark is also the only reason we have this style in the US. The other students of this style would not teach to anyone who was not chinese, but Gin Foon Mark thought that all people were equal and should have a right to this knowledge.
LOL! LOL!
The only reason!? Please. Not to take anything away from an accomplished Master such as Gin Foon Mark, here is a short history lesson; In 1955 a man moved to NY from China and started to study w/ Late Grandmaster Lam Sang. This man was eventuly Given the title of Yee Fong ( wich my understanding is like keeper of the Alter ). This Man then moved to Ft. Pierce FL where he tought Wilburt Simms the FIRST African American Sifu EVER in Jook lum tong long pai history. This Man that I Speak of also personaly tought my Sifu Ralph Young another non Hakka, non Chinese, African American. So when you say he is the ONLY! reason you're full of SH!T. Almost forgot the man that I'm speaking of as might have already guessed is Grandmaster Henry Poo Yee. Oh yeah Jook lum tong long pai has a branch in Isreal too I don't think they're Chinese.

htowndragon
05-05-2006, 07:15 PM
umm. i know the whole story behind the alter and all. im not gonna get into it. but seriously, this is a dead topic, so just shut it. theres a lot u dont know.

shadow skill PM me if you get the chance.

htowndragon
05-05-2006, 07:17 PM
oh and shadow skill, yee fong = er fong in mandarin, second gate. PM me

dw3041
05-05-2006, 10:22 PM
Shadow Skill:

Gin Foon Mark was already teaching in NY in 1947, and he was given the master title by his teacher; Lum Wing Fay. The style you are talking about is Jook Lum Gee which is a branch off of the origional style based in Kwong Sai. The style is different in many ways and is more of a 'hard' mantis style.
If you are going to laugh at me, at least get the style in question right, do some real research instead of grasping at straws just so you can disagree with me, and then we'll talk.

...and to htowndragon:

I am not going to just stand by while people try to discredit a respectable person who they don't even know a thing about. I'll "shut it" when I feel that Master Mark's integrity has been adequately defended.

us0kch
05-05-2006, 10:39 PM
pardon me for being out of the loop here, and not to get too OT, but just a general question someone could answer? if he did retire from teaching a few years back, then who was running his kwoon out in st. paul, mn? only reason i ask is becuz back in oct, i passed by his school and saw 2 people standing outside waiting for what looked like class to start. when i asked them if they were waiting for class and if sifu mark is still teaching, one of them said yes.

now fast foward to jan, i passed by his school again, and it looked closed, and had a "space for rent" sign on it. :confused: i hope this isn't too touchy of a subject, but for those who know and do not want to respond openly, i understand.

dw3041
05-05-2006, 10:44 PM
It's possible that he took some time off from teaching after the death of his wife, but I'm not sure. I do know that he is still teaching though.

htowndragon
05-06-2006, 05:52 PM
dw:

fair enough.

dw3041
05-06-2006, 10:33 PM
htowndragon:

I'm interested in hearing what you know about the alter and how you know it.
Just curious.

htowndragon
05-07-2006, 10:40 AM
ill PM you.

Siu Lum
05-07-2006, 09:02 PM
only reason i ask is becuz back in oct, i passed by his school and saw 2 people standing outside waiting for what looked like class to start. when i asked them if they were waiting for class and if sifu mark is still teaching, one of them said yes.

hey us0kch.... was this this past october of '05?.... i think that might have been me
and my training partner. was one of them chinese and other american? we went there for a week to train, and are planing another trip this oct. its was a truely memorable experiance to meet such a great Master. :)

us0kch
05-08-2006, 09:45 AM
hey us0kch.... was this this past october of '05?.... i think that might have been me
and my training partner. was one of them chinese and other american? we went there for a week to train, and are planing another trip this oct. its was a truely memorable experiance to meet such a great Master. :)

Yeah, it was this past oct of 05, but I don't recall seeing a chinese student there with an american student, only 2 american students waiting. It was a sunday morning if memory serves me right. If you have sifu mark's contact info, I would call him 1st before making another trip as I'm pretty certain his school looked closed.

X-Warrior
05-08-2006, 10:12 AM
I just happend to know their contact info: 2259 Minnehahha Ave, Maplewood MN, phone: 651-739-0778. I too am not sure if they're open or closed.

Who is taking over his school? I know he had a couple of advanced students, I wonder who is going to carry his art on?

EasternLord
05-08-2006, 06:22 PM
Here we go again another digging in a sleeping hornets nest. well, since you brought this up, you will be the one getting most of the stings:


He has been practicing kung fu for almost 80 years, someone wouldn't hold this much interest in one thing only to sell out after this long.

GFM (gin foon mark) born in 1927, how can a 79 year old man study for 80 years? GFM didn't meet his jook lum master (lam wing fay) till he was 29 years old (in 1956) that leaves his knowledge that he sells (he only sells jook lum and nothing else) more like 50 rather than 80 years.

Review your third grade math classes before you try to put anyone up for a ride or come back from the clouds to reality.


Gin Foon Mark was already teaching in NY in 1947, and he was given the master title by his teacher; Lum Wing Fay.

Here is another twisted sentence. again gin foon mark didn't meet lam wing fay till 1956 so he was teaching other arts (I believe hung gar) back then and not jook lum, not till the 60s. aside from that, there is nothing special in anyone teaching at age 20, there are a lot of famous masters teaching since 18, some I met since they were 16.


There is only one true master of his system - Gin foon Mark himself." ... "The title is passed down to whomever the former master thinks is worthy.

Well phrased, 'the only true master of HIS system. everyone is the only true master of HIS system, no doubt about that ... lol. but, before gin foon mark's time there were already 10 masters selected by lam wing fay and 4 more along with him, a total of 15. lam sifu also authorized others to spread his art, Henry Poo Yee being the last disciple. are you saying these others weren't worthy? can you also tell this to them face to face or are you just hiding in a safe place behind a keyboard and type whatever you feel like? just because gin foon mark only met lam sifu in 1956 and studied with him for 10 years doesn't mean lam didn't teach and selected others as 'masters' before and after.


I know the story behind the alter ...

Sure you do, so do we. doesn't mean our truth is the same as yours or yours the same as ours but you believe what you were told and that's just what you were told by ONE man. there isn't just one "THE" altar, other students of lam sifu have inherited an altar from him with personal blessing of Lam sifu HIMSELF. For example henry poo yee's altar was personally blessed by lam sifu in his school. how'bout that?


All this aside, I've met him and I've also met a few people who have known him for 20 plus years and they will all tell you that he is not the kind of person who would do something like that [selling his art], so unless you actually know him personally, please stop making accusations." ... "How dare you people accuse Gin Foon Mark of being more interested in money than in his loyalty to the art.

Well, since I also met him personally and can tell you that he IS selling his art for money, it means not ALL will tell you that he wouldn't do something like that. facts, no accusations:

1) he sells his first door ceremony and certifications to teach to whomever PAYS for it. there are plenty of examples of whom only studied under him for merely a few weeks or few months, he didn't even know them prior to that - and they weren't even living in the same state just visiting once a while - yet they were given the first door ceremony AND permission to teach. So you can keep that kind of first door ceremony and certification to yourself for NO ONE cares for it. lol
2) he sold many publications as well as publicly claimed to have the 5th generation title passed down to him by lam sifu. since everyone - except those in minnesota - know that lam wing fay DID NOT select a generation master this also only shows someone interested in getting more money and fame and NOT showing loyalty to the art.

Lam sifu DID NOT give the next (5th) generation title to ANYONE EVER. fact, no accusation!

And the other ridiculous claims like GFM the first chinese kung fu instructor teaching non-chinese... lol. there were other instructors (especially on the west coast) who have been teaching non-chinese since the 30s - not to mention in other countries than the US.

These are facts that show someone to be interested more in money and fame than loyalty.


Gin Foon Mark can not be expected to dishonor his teachers and the entire style by just letting anyone teach incorrectly

Funny, the jook lum art has been changed a lot particularly by gin foon mark who introduced new forms - such as the 5 star - that has never been taught by Lam sifu as well as transformed many of the original forms from one man to two men forms. so you mean he is entitled to change and the only one who create the correct art but no one else? the 'correct' forms you're talking about are correct to GFM and his students - and maybe to you - but it ends there. to others, other forms are correct. some teach the 'correct' forms lam sifu passed down to them and for them those are the correct forms.

So you are entitled to your own opinion but they are just that: OPINIONS.

And if you're talking about dishonoring a master: no one dishonors anyone more than GFM does by constantly insulting other masters - especially within his own pai, his brothers and his teacher - but you guys are so brainwashed into one holistic belief that you're the only holder of the real truth and the true art, that you're unable to accept anything else. it's time to wake up and smell the roses: you're not alone and your own truth only reaches as far as the door of your school and no further.

David Jamieson
05-08-2006, 07:19 PM
Just an observation and a bit of bemusement...but if I was a new person to Kungfu and wanted to study and I readthis thread, I would avoid anyone that had anything to do with any of this.

It is... well, not exhibiting of wu de, mo duk, or whatever that seems to be important but is lost in this type of mudslinging.

The other thing that's evident is that neither group can seem to let go seeing as this is 6 year old dead thread and the parties concerned directly or by proxy can't seem to get beyond this mudslinging and name calling.

I would have to surmise that this poor quality of communication would be evident in the instruction as well, you know, the wholer eflection thing and all.

Sorry if that ticks anyone, but so you should be. Because it make sya all look a little less than what could be considered kungfu brothers or even of the kungfu mind.

htowndragon
05-08-2006, 09:58 PM
aww **** i thought this was over.

dw3041
05-08-2006, 10:51 PM
EasternLord:

GET YOUR INFORMATION STRAIGHT!!!!!!

I don't see why you even bothered posting this message when you obviously have to grasp at straws in order to make your argument. I said that GFM has been studying kung fu for almost 80 years because he started when he was 5 or 6. That's 73-74 years, which is almost 80. I don't recall saying anywhere that he had been studying "mantis style" for that long. I'm just saying that he had a passion for kung fu.

And I looked back through all of my posts and didn't find where I said "I know the story behind the alter" yet you posted this as a quote by me. You've gotta at least try harder than that.

You obviously are just looking to argue. When I said that GFM was the master of "his" style, I knew that this presupposed that he was the master, but I can get away with this because first off this was already the base of my argument, and secondly because I had no reason to think that it was going to be picked apart by some arogant little **** who was only looking for an argument.

I also never said that he didn't make money off of his martial arts. He is just as entitled to make money off of what he does for a living as anyone else. What I was saying (and this probably would have been obvious to you had you not been looking for a fight) is that he wasn't shamming people out of their money, not that he wasn't charging for teaching and for the status that might come with learning this art.

And don't preach about the validity of my statements being negated by opinion. First off, they were never stated as opinions but as fact so you'd have been better off sticking with blatant rejection of my statements, secondly, if you really felt that way about opinions then you never would have put so much time into expressing your's.

How about you live up to your words and instead of accusing me of hiding behind my keyboard you can come down to GFM's and we can see how well your story stands up against people who have known GFM for longer than you have probably been potty trained.

and David Jamieson;
How about I save you some trouble by making your motives for your post more clear:
HEY EVERYONE! LOOK HOW MATURE David Jamieson IS! David Jamieson IS GOING TO BE THE GROWNUP HERE AND PUT AN END TO THIS ARGUMENT BECAUSE David Jamieson IS SO MATURE! David Jamieson IS BETTER THAN ALL OF YOU BECAUSE David Jamieson IS ENOUGH OF A MAN TO NOT GET INVOLVED!

I got some news for you, you got involved the second you did what the rest of us did by posting your opinion on this subject.

dw3041
05-08-2006, 11:02 PM
Another thing;
If GFM is such a joke and an insult to other "masters", then why haven't any of the other "masters" put an end to it by winning him in a match.
I'll tell you why, because he has made short work of the few who have challenged him. And if you doubt his abilities then why don't you just ask him to prove himself? It will probably be a good chance for you to see something that you had thought humanly impossible before, the only downfall would be that you would probably be the subject of the demonstration.

Orang_Silat
05-09-2006, 02:25 AM
To put my useless two cents worth. If you have not trained with Master Mark or any other teacher for that matter reserve your opinions about him or how he chooses to run HIS school until you have. I trained at his school briefly about 20 years ago and I have contact with some more current students. I will say he and his school I have found to be beyond reproach, which is better than I can say about many naysayers who get their thrills by putting down people as if they had authority in the first. I will also say every student from his school I have met have at minimum have been decent folk, but more so than not were all real sincere and instant friends. A thought about prices teachers charge and renewing certificates and such is to weed out those who are not sincere or truly dedicated, not everyone is out to make a quick buck or to rip people off many are just trying to prevent it from happening to themselves. If anyone was offended it is likely due to thier own guilty conscience, because I do not mean anyone any disrespect. I only spoke up because Master Mark is an honrable man to the best of my knwledge. Please don't take my word for it, go to his school and find out for yourself and hell you might even learn a thing or two and have a good work out

Selamat dan Hormat
Orang_Silat

David Jamieson
05-09-2006, 05:50 AM
How about I save you some trouble by making your motives for your post more clear:
HEY EVERYONE! LOOK HOW MATURE David Jamieson IS! David Jamieson IS GOING TO BE THE GROWNUP HERE AND PUT AN END TO THIS ARGUMENT BECAUSE David Jamieson IS SO MATURE! David Jamieson IS BETTER THAN ALL OF YOU BECAUSE David Jamieson IS ENOUGH OF A MAN TO NOT GET INVOLVED!


wow, ok then.

You guys enjoy yourselves here, all Im saying is that you are tarnishing the names of all youselves. I wouldn't expect too many students...particularly those who read this thread.

I for one am certaionly disinterested and would hold in question the quality and autheticity of any of it if the case be that you can't get beyond this feud...that goes nowhere.

enjoy your mudslinging fest then and goodbye.

:rolleyes:

htowndragon
05-09-2006, 09:20 AM
there have been encounters...

so just shut up already.

dw3041
05-09-2006, 09:59 PM
there have been encounters...


?????????!

htowndragon
05-10-2006, 06:57 PM
This is a PM from dw:

Re: hi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't believe that you know what you are talking about. If you really didn't think that it was your place to say anything, then you wouldn't have said as much as you did. It's obvious that you only want people to think that you have some special inside information so that you can feel important. I don't have time to waste on giving in to your cry for attention, so if you message me again I will just delete it without even looking at it.



so i will reply here: ok.

Siu Lum
05-10-2006, 07:55 PM
Yeah, it was this past oct of 05, but I don't recall seeing a chinese student there with an american student, only 2 american students waiting. It was a sunday morning if memory serves me right. If you have sifu mark's contact info, I would call him 1st before making another trip as I'm pretty certain his school looked closed.

there are also 2 other shops that rent from that same building, (Master mark owns the biulding) so one of those might be for rent. the school seemed to be running well when my training brother and i visited.

i just want to say it turns my stomach to hear the way a true legend in gung fu, like Mark Foon is being dishonored. my experience at Master mark's school was a MOST pleasureable experiance. Master mark, as well as all of his students were very kind and hospitable to us. we were there for 5 days and attended 5 classes fro $20! that's not someone who is looking to make money off people. i think everyone should go see Master mark's school for himself. Master mark is a true martial arts legend, and even at the age of 79, his gung fu is still very vital and his speed amazing. go see for yourself. (thanks again guys!)

us0kch
05-10-2006, 08:13 PM
there are also 2 other shops that rent from that same building, (Master mark owns the biulding) so one of those might be for rent. the school seemed to be running well when my training brother and i visited.

now that, i didn't know about with him owning the bldg, but it does make sense. Good to hear you had a very enjoyable experience at his school.

htowndragon
05-10-2006, 08:47 PM
no ones dishonoring GFM.

people are saying stop talking about how he is the true inheritor of lum sang, how he has the alter, etc. etc.

and this goes for anyone. not just GFM.

EasternLord
05-11-2006, 08:03 AM
no ones dishonoring GFM.

people are saying stop talking about how he is the true inheritor of lum sang, how he has the alter, etc. etc.

and this goes for anyone. not just GFM.

Fully agreed. no one dishonors GFM but he ISN'T what so many claims himself to be. he is great and all that but he ain't no 'THE' master of the art. he ain't no the holder of 'THE' altar.

He was selected as ONE of the possible 15 students to inherit the art BUT THAT IS HOW FAR HE WENT, HE NEVER WAS SELECTED ANY FURTHER. NO ONE WAS. lam sifu didn't pass it down to any of these selected people. so grow up! no 5th generation master as he falsely claimed it for 30 years in Minnesota. yeah, no one could check on it so he just ripped people off, dishonored the other students of lam sang and lied for three decades about what his master has given to him. he dishonored those who were also teaching jook lum for decades, people went to him because they thought he was 'THE' selected master.

So you guys have plenty of your onw disgrace so cool down DW!

Sadly all these come from brainwashing and NOT from research. only those who listen to NO ONE BUT GFM make these claims. have you read for example master henry poo yee's website lately how he learned jook lum (ckfa.com)? have you read about lam sang's story for what he knows or you just form your own opition about what you heard from ONE MAN and in ONE SCHOOL? grow up man!

i've been there, studied there and saw a LOT of people leaving because of all these BS-ing. GFM talks bad of his own kung fu brothers ALL THE TIME. henry poo yee no good, jack man loiue no good, wong bak lim no good ... etc. and he is the only one. Oh yeah, get a life! talk to others too before you form an opinion about them.

GFM is a great master but that's the beginning and end of the story. wake up people in minnesota and start looking around yourself - at least those whom it's not too late already.

EasternLord
05-11-2006, 08:40 AM
Another thing;
If GFM is such a joke and an insult to other "masters", then why haven't any of the other "masters" put an end to it by winning him in a match.

This is exactly why: 'cause they're adult enought to know that just because you fight it wont change ANYTHING. he still wont be what he claims to be, that is the inheritor of the art or 'THE' altar. doesn't matter what he does, WONT CHANGE ANYTHING. GFM can fight every single master, he can kill them all and their students too, STILL WONT MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!! grow up man! he is no inheritor of art regardless of what HE says or does about it.

But why don't YOU show proofs that he is the inheritor of the art and 'THE' altar as you claim it. why are you arguing here, you must know what you're talking about. bring your proofs out and all this will come to an end.

We're waiting.

dw3041
05-11-2006, 09:59 PM
Why don't you just go to GFM's and see the alter for yourself? It's in his kwoon in plain sight. I would take a picture and post it here, but I am sure that I would only be met with a million responses asking me how I know that it's the real alter and so it would just be a waste of my time and effort. If anyone does think that it would be convincing enough evidence, PM me and I will be glad to take a picture and send it to you; I should be getting a digital camera shortly.

When I originally posted in this thread I only wanted people who have never met GFM and who don't know for sure what they are talking about to stop insulting him. I can't say that I know every detail of GFM's past, but I have more of a right to press my views than anyone who is insulting GFM because I am not doing anyone any harm. If I were insulting someone I would be more careful to be as informed as possible. Bottom line, I see GFM all the time and he is a good person who doesn't deserve these insults. I was only trying to protect someone from ignorant slander and I was met with just that. I never gave anyone any reason to insult me, but I suppose I should have expected it from people who were already doing it to someone else. So sorry for giving you people the benefit of a doubt!


And to htowndragon:

Why don't you at least post what it was that I was responding to in that PM?

EasternLord
05-12-2006, 06:36 AM
Why don't you just go to GFM's and see the alter for yourself? It's in his kwoon in plain sight. I would take a picture and post it here, but I am sure that I would only be met with a million responses asking me how I know that it's the real alter and so it would just be a waste of my time and effort. If anyone does think that it would be convincing enough evidence, PM me and I will be glad to take a picture and send it to you; I should be getting a digital camera shortly.

When I originally posted in this thread I only wanted people who have never met GFM and who don't know for sure what they are talking about to stop insulting him. I can't say that I know every detail of GFM's past, but I have more of a right to press my views than anyone who is insulting GFM because I am not doing anyone any harm. If I were insulting someone I would be more careful to be as informed as possible. Bottom line, I see GFM all the time and he is a good person who doesn't deserve these insults. I was only trying to protect someone from ignorant slander and I was met with just that. I never gave anyone any reason to insult me, but I suppose I should have expected it from people who were already doing it to someone else. So sorry for giving you people the benefit of a doubt!


And to htowndragon:

Why don't you at least post what it was that I was responding to in that PM?
You are doing a noble thing trying to defend someone's reputation and that is great, however i am not sure why showing a picture of an altar would prove anything? i have seen his altar (for i too have studied there for a while) and i have seen pictures of the other masters' altars and ain't none of them said 'i am THE ONLY true altar' on them. they aren't proofs of anything but the dedication of their owners to a custom, to an art and they are signs of great respect of their owners for their sifus. but they ain't proofs of anything else.

Again, trying to defend GFM is a great thing, however he had done great many bad things in his life that are not small issues. for example like i said his claim that he is the inheritor of Lam Sifu's art and the 5th generation master of the style lived up only till people actually had an easy way of contacting others (such as the internet) and found out that it is not true. just ask anyone else who actually learned from Lam Sifu. some spoke up against this, such as robert lee - who took care of Lam Sifu in his last years - and publicly issued an article in a magazine that Lam Sifu did not pass the art down to anyone. but most of the other masters just ignored it. they feel those who really want to know the truth will seek out for them. and finding the truth isn't done by listening to one person but it is like practicing kung fu: it ain't worth nothing if you don't measure it up to others.

You have done a good thing though for coming here because this is your first step in talking to others and finding the truth. talk to other masters too and then draw your conclusions, but listening to just one man's stories will only show you a very small portion of a great art.

Hope i shed some lights to what people are trying to get across.

htowndragon
05-12-2006, 09:16 AM
me:
hi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i am only 18, but i grew up in houstons chinatown. i am connected to HPY through my sifu eugene chou, who was first disciple of gong bao zhai (ba gua quan) in taiwan, and later after the death of my grandmaster, became student of HPY. i dont train tong long formally yet, just the ting sing kung and some fightign hands

however i have also talked to lee ying sing tong long pai and GFM people privately, as well as other masters of differnt arts etc. i am pretty well connected in mo lum, sometimes even with the "politically incorrect" people.

im not taking sides, i know what happened, and i also know of several encounters between the tong long people, sometimes even "scuffles" that didnt last long.

not going to reveal anything. your sifu is a respected man, but please do not discuss any politics. its within the family, and for the most part, within the chinese community.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dw3041
05-12-2006, 12:19 PM
me:
hi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i am only 18, but i grew up in houstons chinatown. i am connected to HPY through my sifu eugene chou, who was first disciple of gong bao zhai (ba gua quan) in taiwan, and later after the death of my grandmaster, became student of HPY. i dont train tong long formally yet, just the ting sing kung and some fightign hands

however i have also talked to lee ying sing tong long pai and GFM people privately, as well as other masters of differnt arts etc. i am pretty well connected in mo lum, sometimes even with the "politically incorrect" people.

im not taking sides, i know what happened, and i also know of several encounters between the tong long people, sometimes even "scuffles" that didnt last long.

not going to reveal anything. your sifu is a respected man, but please do not discuss any politics. its within the family, and for the most part, within the chinese community.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was not the message that I replied to with the message above. I replied to this one and then you messaged me back. This second message was the one that I replied to with what you posted above.

dw3041
05-12-2006, 12:36 PM
EasternLord:

You keep asking me to provide proof, but I haven't seen any from you. Everything that you say that you know about this situation was told to you by others. What makes it any more credible then what I said? I am not saying that I can prove that anything I say is true, but neither can you. I am just saying that you shouldn't accuse someone of doing an incriminating act unless you can prove it. It's different to defend someone with little or no proof then it is to accuse someone with little or no proof because the burden of proof is on the accuser.

Lam Tong Long
05-12-2006, 02:36 PM
me:
hi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i am only 18, but i grew up in houstons chinatown. i am connected to HPY through my sifu eugene chou, who was first disciple of gong bao zhai (ba gua quan) in taiwan, and later after the death of my grandmaster, became student of HPY. i dont train tong long formally yet, just the ting sing kung and some fightign hands

however i have also talked to lee ying sing tong long pai and GFM people privately, as well as other masters of differnt arts etc. i am pretty well connected in mo lum, sometimes even with the "politically incorrect" people.

im not taking sides, i know what happened, and i also know of several encounters between the tong long people, sometimes even "scuffles" that didnt last long.

not going to reveal anything. your sifu is a respected man, but please do not discuss any politics. its within the family, and for the most part, within the chinese community.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Htowndragon,

I'm interested to know which LYS Pai people you have been in touch with.

Regards,

Jay

PS. Keep it chopped and screwed baby, Screwston TX!!!!!!!

EasternLord
05-14-2006, 09:30 PM
You keep asking me to provide proof, but I haven't seen any from you. Everything that you say that you know about this situation was told to you by others. What makes it any more credible then what I said? I am not saying that I can prove that anything I say is true, but neither can you. I am just saying that you shouldn't accuse someone of doing an incriminating act unless you can prove it. It's different to defend someone with little or no proof then it is to accuse someone with little or no proof because the burden of proof is on the accuser.

Proof for what? That he isn't the inheritor of the art or that he doesn't have 'THE' altar? I told you, contact ANY of the other students of Lam Sifu and they'll give you all the proofs you need.

You are twisting this around just like with any of your other statements. no one accuses GFM, you claim that he is this and that yet you can't provide proof of any of your claims.

Far as proofs that he claimed to be the inheritor of the art: turn to page 'xi' in the '6 healing movements qigong' book he published. Read second column: '... in 1969 master Lum closed his hands (retired) and appointed master mark to take over the fifth generation master of this system.'

No he didn't Lam Sifu DID NOT appoint anyone as the next generation master.

OK, now get your '50 years of real kung fu' video out (a biography of GFM) and start playing it. right at the beginning it says '... it has always been understood and accepted that GFM is the true 5th generation master of this art'.

Now get your training manuals out that he sells on his website. in the biography section they too claim him as the inheritor of the art.

Or a coat from his old website, right off of the first page ' ... after Lam Sung retired, he passed his art down to gin foon mark'.

Want more? look at the sign in front of his school, or pick up any of his brochures inside the school or just look at the Yellow pages years back. they all advertise him and his school as the fifth generation master.

HE AIN'T!

Your turn, show proofs that he IS the inheritor of the art and 'THE' altar as you claimed it.

dw3041
05-17-2006, 03:45 PM
Proof for what? That he isn't the inheritor of the art or that he doesn't have 'THE' altar? I told you, contact ANY of the other students of Lam Sifu and they'll give you all the proofs you need.

You are twisting this around just like with any of your other statements. no one accuses GFM, you claim that he is this and that yet you can't provide proof of any of your claims.

Far as proofs that he claimed to be the inheritor of the art: turn to page 'xi' in the '6 healing movements qigong' book he published. Read second column: '... in 1969 master Lum closed his hands (retired) and appointed master mark to take over the fifth generation master of this system.'

No he didn't Lam Sifu DID NOT appoint anyone as the next generation master.

OK, now get your '50 years of real kung fu' video out (a biography of GFM) and start playing it. right at the beginning it says '... it has always been understood and accepted that GFM is the true 5th generation master of this art'.

Now get your training manuals out that he sells on his website. in the biography section they too claim him as the inheritor of the art.

Or a coat from his old website, right off of the first page ' ... after Lam Sung retired, he passed his art down to gin foon mark'.

Want more? look at the sign in front of his school, or pick up any of his brochures inside the school or just look at the Yellow pages years back. they all advertise him and his school as the fifth generation master.

HE AIN'T!

Your turn, show proofs that he IS the inheritor of the art and 'THE' altar as you claimed it.
How the H3LL does showing that he claims to have inherited the art disprove that he has?!

Siu Lum
05-21-2006, 07:03 PM
some info i found on the net...never heard this particular "version" before...
http://www.freewebs.com/jook_lum/index.htm


"How Grandmaster Henry Poo Yee became a disciple.

This is the story of how Grandmaster Henry Poo Yee became a disciple of Grandmaster Lum Wing Fai.

Henry Poo Yee was born in 1940 in Toi San county, Guangdong province, China. He was trained in the southern styles of Hung Gar, White Crane and Bak Mei since age 6. In 1955, he migrated to New York city to join his family and started to learn Jook Lum Praying Mantis under Grandmaster Lum Wing Fai. Although he trained daily with GM Lum for 10 years until 1965, he was not invited to become a disciple. GM Lum "washed hands" in 1965 and moved to Taiwan.

Henry made several trips to Taiwan to visit GM Lum and during one of these trips, he had an accident in which he sustained serious injuries. GM Lum treated him but due to the seriousness of Henry's injuries, the healing process was expected to take a long period of time and he just did not have the time to spare. Being a strict traditionalist, GM Lum had no choice but to accept Henry as a disciple on "humantarian" grounds so that he could teach Henry the secret techniques of the internal healing chikung, which can only be taught to disciples. Henry practiced conscientiously and made such a remarkable recovery that GM Lum was encouraged to further impart to Henry the "heavenly" chikung and other forms of internal arts. GM Lum also gave his recipe for dit ta jow to Henry.

Henry's being accepted as a disciple was not well received by the other disciples. To avoid disorder in the Jook Lum organisation, GM Lum encouraged Henry to start his own kungfu organisation teaching the Jook Lum Praying Mantis and appointed him as "Yi Foon", the No 2 man behind Gin Foon Mark. Henry started the Chinese Kung Fu Association and in 1991 settled down in Texas which serves as the headquarters of the CKFA."

EasternLord
05-22-2006, 03:10 PM
How the H3LL does showing that he claims to have inherited the art disprove that he has?!

You're totally in the clouds man. those were proofs that he CLAIMED it and i said he isn't and talk to other students of Lam Sifu and they all tell you: THERE AIN'T NO 'THE' ALTAR AND THERE AIN'T NO FIFTH GENERATION MASTER. I told you, talk to all the other students of Lam Sifu (and his son) and they will all tell you Lam Sifu ain't given no fifth generation title to no one and there is no such thing as 'THE' altar. what do you think man? he would give it to a student instead of his very own son? grow up man!!! get back from the clouds ... or go back to your brainwashing classes in your minnesota school where anyone believes anything they're told ... :D :D :D

(Still waiting for the proofs of 5th generation master title and 'THE' altar ... baahhhaahahahahahahah ... and waiting ... and waiting ... till eternity ... ZZZZZZZZZ)

PS: oh, and when you're asking for the proofs, also don't forget to ask GFM how he was banished from Lam's Pai by Lam Sifu himself.

GlenLee
05-22-2006, 08:51 PM
I visited Master Mark's school this evening. It's still open and going strong. The "for rent" signs outside are for the two businesses that used to share the building. Classes meet in the basement. I was invited to join the class, but declined because I'm getting over a virus that prevented me from training at the external KF school I attend.

Speaking with Master Mark, I met an honorable man who is gentle in spirit, and who deeply cares about his martial art and his students. His students deeply respect him and showed genuine caring toward him.

The students are well trained, and well drilled. The two hour classes are exhausting. The students are in constant motion, practicing over and over and over the techniques that they use to defend themselves. I watched one student talking to someone else while her partner threw punches at her. She was looking away from her partner, not watching his punches, yet she had no trouble deflecting each blow. Her hands were her eyes.

I am very impressed with Master Mark, his school, and his students. I'm an American, and am not very well acquainted with Chinese culture. Personally I don't give a hoot about some alter. For me the proof is in the pudding, not in some piece of paper that says the pudding is certified as good. In application Master Mark's students measure up. That's all the proof I need. But as for him claiming to be something that one or two are saying he is not, he is recognized the world over as being the 5th generation Master. He is well respected among his peers, in his community, and world wide. He's been a positive influence in our community for decades. We're proud to call him one of us.

EasternLord
05-23-2006, 08:00 PM
Well, as I said it at the beginning, all shame fall on the one who dug this all up again: DW.

As mentioned, no one questioned GFM's skills or where his art came from but if someone starts claiming things that aren't true, they better be prepared and face consequences.

there is always another side of each truth and they are just as much of the truth as your version of it. only the naive belives in half of a whole.

PS: and what you see from one night's class is very little of what there is but only revealed to those who are entitled to it. so careful making any conclusions from just one quiet night's class.

dw3041
05-24-2006, 07:15 AM
EasternLord:

You keep saying that nobody is accusing GFM of anything, but you yourself are constantly accusing him of not being who he claims to be e.i. you are calling him a lier and generally an unrespectable person. You have no proof of this and yet you keep expecting me to prve you wrong. Stop being so arogant and just admit that you had no right to say some of the thing that you did.

You are not the only one who has insulted GFM, just go back and actually read the whole thread.