Southern Shaolin Article

[passing_through]

News Flash:

This month's issue of Kung Fu Qigong magazine features a very interesting article on the Southern Shaolin Temple. It seems the author visited the site and spoke with many of the main people. In the article he offers 10 "proofs" as to the veracity of the temple he visited as being THE Southern Shaolin Temple of legend. Very interesting reading.

One piece of information that stood out was the mention that the only original building left standing from the temple was the Red Flower Pavillion, or Hung Fa Ting (in Cantonese). The author states that the building was constructed in 1646.

[yuanfen]

Lots of temples in China in that part of the Ming period when
Buddhism was in full flower. Though the main northern temple
became known as Shaolin... the symbolism of shaolin and siu lum
was not uncommon elsewhere. The "young forest" symbolism was part of the transmission of the lamp of Buddhism.
And in the ups and downs of politics and religion lots of temples
got burned or abandoned.

[t_niehoff]

Excellent points, Joy. FWIW, if we want to believe something it is easy to find "evidence" for it. So when looking at the claims of "investigators" or "researchers" we must also look at whether or not they have any investment in a certain "finding." Btw, the "scientific method" requires that we try and disprove our hypothesis, in part, for this very reason -- with any conclusion resting on the strength of our test (which, of course, depends on our rigor in attempting to disprove it).

Terence

[reneritchie]

I haven't seen the article but am certainly open to the idea and am very interested in seeing what the author(s?) propose.

Thanks Jeremy,

RR

[Geezer]

Made a Mistake

[Geezer]

http://members.lycos.nl/saolim/zuid_shaolin.html

Quote taken from the website>

At this moment there are THREE (yes: 3!) Southern Shaolin Temples in China. All of them are located in Fujian Province.

Some more from the website>

Introduction, from the book: The Riddle of Southern Shaolin (Translated from Shaolin Fang Gu, by Wen Yu Chen ISBN:7-5306-2830-5)
"On April 4, 1992 the Putian city government held a press conference to announce that in a township therein the remnants of the Southern Shaolin Temple had been found. Xin Hua and 19 other Chinese and international news agencies showed up for the conference. Soon after, the news was published in Xin Hua and Zhong Xin outlets. The stories said that the work on the theory that Southern Shaolin was located within the LinQuan Yuan in Putian’s Lin Shan neighbourhood began with the ‘Southern Shaolin Temple Remnants Meeting?on Sept 14, 1991. Attending this meeting were more than 30 scholars and experts from seven provinces and was led by the head of the Chengdu Sports Administration, Prof. Yu Yun Tai, Chinese Peoples University (Renmin Daxue) professor Tai Bao Qi, and professor Luo Zhao of the Chinese Social Science World Religion Research Center. The meeting’s main presentation of evidence was a piece of research by the Fujian Cultural Center, Archaeological Team member Lin Gong Yu, entitled ‘Putian Lin Quan Yuan’ ruins discovery and early analysis.

According to this report, from Dec. 1990 to May 1991 a 1,325 square meter ruin was found with strata beneath that included Song, Yuan, Ming and late Qing dynasty periods. The remnants accord with building techniques of Ming through Song times. At the same time, Song dynasty era carvings were found that have clear writing: ‘Lin Quan Yuan, Enlightened Teacher Nan Ti’s tower, Tian You, thus proving it is indeed Lin Quan Yuan. However, Song era writers record in the ‘San Shan Zhi?(records of San Shan) report that Lin Quan Yuan construction was begun in 557, which is a long way from the Song era (1100’s).

The archaeologist proposes the following theory in the section ‘Concerning the problem of the Southern Shaolin Temple: ‘This find has not found any direct evidence of the Southern Shaolin Temple, but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence which points to this Lin Quan Yuan as being the Southern Shaolin mentioned by so many modern scholars, legends, novels, and stories among the people.

5 points support this conclusion.

First, ‘correct place. Many scholarly reports are that the southern temple was somewhere in Fujian’s Putian ‘jiu lian’mountains. Moreover, the Lin Quan Yuan is found in the Lin Shan neighborhood, which was called Quan Shan in Song times. ‘Jiu Lian mountain came along much later as a result of secret society activity.
Second, the Lin Quan Yuan had martial monks. Within the ruins a large stele was on which was carved ‘This temple’s martial monks Yong Qi and Jin Qi built a trough in Sept. 1063, placed by Ti Rong. The archaeologist concludes, ‘martial monks are naturally associated with Shaolin.

Third, Lin Quan Yuan’s location ‘created the right conditions for Northern Shaolin disciples to visit.
Fourth, Lin Quan Yuan is surrounded by several other temples, ‘and these temples records and steles have many references to Shaolin disciples’. For example, Ku Zhu Temple, Jiu Lian Yan Temple and others record that Shaolin monks built them. The nearby temple’s relationship with Lin Quan Yuan was very close, and some even counted themselves as sub-temples. This seems to show that Lin Quan Yuan could be the Southern Shaolin.

Fifth, the Southern Shaolin ‘has always and forever been related to Hong Men (early triad) legends. Lin Quan Yuan’s own destruction seems to coincide with the legends of early Qing demolition of the Southern Shaolin temple. The temple’s northern building ‘Red Flower Pavilion’ (built in 1646) has written over the door ‘All things return to the 3-foot sword, in the time of the 5 clouds, the 7-star flag will appear, which seem to relate to the Hong Men’s leader, Wan Yun Long. Not coincidentally, many of the late Ming loyalists ‘left home’ (become monks) and entered the Putian, Fujian Jiulian Southern Shaolin temple.

Overall, much of the scholarship in the report is trustworthy. However, the theories in the ‘Concerning the Southern Shaolin problem are not. For example, Hua Qiao University’s Lin Yi Zhou’s work ‘New Study of the Southern Shaolin Temple presents several doubts:
Fan Wen Lian’s 1941 revision of the ‘Complete History of China (school text book), struck out the line ‘Kang Xi’s 13th year, the triads were formed; they were begun by the Putian, Fujian Jiu Lian Mountain Shaolin Temple monks, because it was seen as incorrect and nothing but legend because Putian does not have a Jiu Lian Mountain.
Also, ‘martial monks’are not solely from Shaolin. In the Yuan Dynasty, the Quan Zhou Kai Yuan monastery also had fighting monks.
Therefore, the words ‘martial monks’ carved on the stele cannot be definitively related to Shaolin, northern or southern.

In November 1992 I asked about the problem of Lin Quan Yuan and Southern Shaolin, and after much debate, my opinion (Wen Yu Chen, writer) was asked for. I replied ‘there is nothing in the Songshan (northern) Shaolin Temple’s writings, or other materials we have currently, to indicate a Southern Shaolin
Temple. Whether Lin Quan Yuan is or isn’t, much remains to be seen and only hard research will reveal the truth."

[tparkerkfo]

Wow. It would be cool if it existed. Unfortunatly many others have also done research and have found no definative proof one way or the other. Their is no proof what so ever to suggest that the northern temple had relations with the south, from what I understand. The only evidence of a southern temple comes from martial arts groups.

I think it is interesting to note that they mention there is not EVIDENCE. They are working with circumsantial evidence. Basicly theories. I have seen MANY theories that are rediculous in many science discipline. Heck, The "Brontasarous" went around with the wrong head for many decades. No that dinosaur does not exist.

There are many temples around China, to include the southern areas. Many are even Budhist. But that does not make them shaolin. Did they really practice martial arts? Did they actualy excahange monks like Gee Shim? Many temples actualy seemed to do martial arts. Even if this is a Shaolin branch, I think it will be hard to prove unless a a item is found that links the two, which is not very likely.

I personally hope it turns out to be a southern temple. I am VERY skeptical, but open. I think it would "simplify" some things. I just hope people are objective enough to look at what is found and what is presented. None of the 5 points are really that interesting unless your trying to prove one point of view. They are far from solid evidence or even rational.

Tom
________
FFM ***** (http://www.****tube.com/categories/541/*****/videos/1)

[t_niehoff]

Hi Tom,

Tom Parker wrote:

I personally hope it turns out to be a southern temple. I am VERY skeptical, but open. I think it would "simplify" some things.
---------------------

Even if the existence of a Southern Shaolin Temple was proved, that would not, in itself, prove it had any connection to WCK (other than the various lineage traditions) any more than the existence of the Shaolin Temple proves the Ng Mui story. :) So I don't think it would "simplify" anything.

Terence

[reneritchie]

Both Tom and Terence have points, and no it wouldn't prove WCK was Shaolin or anything like that, but it would be one more step in the long, windy road. Besides, I'm a hopeless romantic, and the idea is akin to finding Camalot in terms of Southern Martial mythos.

RR

[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

Wow. It would be cool if it existed. Unfortunatly many others have also done research and have found no definative proof one way or the other. Their is no proof what so ever to suggest that the northern temple had relations with the south, from what I understand. The only evidence of a southern temple comes from martial arts groups.

Rene wrote>

Both Tom and Terence have points, and no it wouldn't prove WCK was Shaolin or anything like that, but it would be one more step in the long, windy road. Besides, I'm a hopeless romantic, and the idea is akin to finding Camalot in terms of Southern Martial mythos.

Rene Wrote>

Rather than attacking me, attacking Hendrik Santo, attacking David Williams or any of the dozen others currently or formerly "on the list", a true VTM should be embracing and *welcoming* the different ideas.

"Thank you!" is what we should be hearing. Thank you for engaging in the dialog, adding to the pool of ideas, broadening the spectrum of discussion. A *true* VTM, a true Museum or Institute dedicated not to one sifu or system, but to Ving Tsun, demands this.

So good to see you shooting this down, the crazy thing is you're shooting it down before the article has even come out.:confused:

Is this what you would call being open minded.;)

Sheldon

[Geezer]

Tom, click on the link and actually read what's on the website,

http://members.lycos.nl/saolim/zuid_shaolin.html

that way you can read down it and not "JUST" what I posted here from the site.

Sheldon;)

[reneritchie]

Sheldon,

Since you're from England, I don't expect you to read English, but come on, if you're going to troll me, at least troll me accurately, you partisan sod! 8P

reneritchie wrote:


I haven't seen the article but am certainly open to the idea and am very interested in seeing what the author(s?) propose.

Thanks Jeremy


Geezer wrote:


Whoops
Made a Mistake

[Rolling_Hand]

Rene Wrote>
quote:Rather than attacking me, attacking Hendrik Santo, attacking David Williams or any of the dozen others currently or formerly "on the list", a true VTM should be embracing and *welcoming* the different ideas.

"Thank you!" is what we should be hearing. Thank you for engaging in the dialog, adding to the pool of ideas, broadening the spectrum of discussion. A *true* VTM, a true Museum or Institute dedicated not to one sifu or system, but to Ving Tsun, demands this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

So good to see you shooting this down, the crazy thing is you're shooting it down before the article has even come out.

Is this what you would call being open minded.

Sheldon

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Geezer,

Your post hits the nail right on someone's head.

But I will point out that once again, several people have decided to jump all over VTM and HFYWCK family because they feel it is all about slamming instead of learning. I believe Savi has mentioned this before.

It's always my pleasure to see the certified Clint Eastwood (Geezer) to speak up in the WCK world.

Humm...

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

Since you're from England, I don't expect you to read English

I try my hardest but I have more trouble reading "Canuc";)

Rene Wrote>

Both Tom and Terence have points

I thought you may have been agreeing with this???

Tom Wrote>

The only evidence of a southern temple comes from martial arts groups.

Cor Blimey/God Blind Me ;)

[Geezer]

Rolling_Hand Wrote>

It's always my pleasure to see the certified Clint Eastwood (Geezer) to speak up in the WCK world.

I prefer "Michael Caine" myself, "Not Allot Of People Kno'd Dtat" ;)

[reneritchie]

Trolling_Hand has just confirmed his level of English comprehension is below even that of Geezer and is nothing but a stalker and troll with no concern for WCK or anyone beyond his transparant cult agenda. Thank g0d he's not Canadian.

Geniuses, I WANT THEIR TO BE A SOUTHERN SHAOLIN TEMPLE, AND I WANT THERE TO BE AN ARTICLE THAT CAN OFFER REASONABLE PROOF FOR ONE.

Next we will discuss the differences between individual standards and standards for institutions that purport to be museums. And then we can again see how Trolling_Hand and Geezer *never* create problems for the VTM...

Jeez. With friends like y'all...

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

Geniuses, I WANT THEIR TO BE A SOUTHERN SHAOLIN TEMPLE, AND I WANT THERE TO BE AN ARTICLE THAT CAN OFFER REASONABLE PROOF FOR ONE.

Tom Wrote>

Wow. It would be cool if it existed. Unfortunatly many others have also done research and have found no definative proof one way or the other. Their is no proof what so ever to suggest that the northern temple had relations with the south, from what I understand. The only evidence of a southern temple comes from martial arts groups.

Rene Wrote>

Both Tom and Terence have points

Is this one of the good points you were talking about:confused:

I understand you said it would be "cool" if there was a Southern Temple but then you seemed to agree with Tom on the above quote.:confused:

Rene Wrote>

And then we can again see how Trolling_Hand and Geezer *never* create problems for the VTM...

Once again you're putting words into their mouths, like I said before "I'm Sure If They Had A Problem With Me They Would Speak Up For Themselves".


Sheldon:D

[reneritchie]

Canuck has several bad points, including use of superfluous 'u' in words like colour, which echoes our colonial roots from Jolly Ole.

Michael Caine used to rule but ever since I saw his acting instructional videos, I can't watch him without remembering "Am I blinking? Look at me, look at me not blink. Do you see me not blinking?"

Tom's points which I thought were worthy of agreement were on remembering things are seldom simple, and need to be taken step by step, and looked at as well roundedly as possible, lest in our haste to have our own opinions justified, we cheat ourselves of better knowledge.

Please remember, since unlike others I'm not a cultist or a fanatic, I can agree with you on some points and Tom or others on other points. Also, since unlike others I am trying to find a theory that best fits the facts, and not trying to find facts to best support a theory, I can look at more than one side of something and see validity, and weigh the different aspects without having been ordered to propagate one over the other, or ignore good stuff from either.

Being 'open minded' doesn't mean just being open minded to the VTM/HFY point of view, but to others as well. (Something my detractors have yet to realize).

RR

[BeiKongHui]

So, did the Dog faced "grandmaster" study HFY back in the day?

Southern Shaolin (http://shao-lin.hypermart.net/masters.html)

[Savi]

Rene said:

Next we will discuss the differences between individual standards and standards for institutions that purport to be museums. And then we can again see how Trolling_Hand and Geezer *never* create problems for the VTM...
--------------------------------------------------
Mr. Ritchie, I'd like to ask you to please clarify what you mean by this.

Thank you,
-Savi.

[tparkerkfo]

Hello Terence,

Good to see you around. I don't mean to imply that it would prove any thing about wing chun. I am just taking it one step at a time. If it exists (The temple), then it would simplify many southern fists connections to the temple. Still, which ones would still be open for debate. First we must estabilish the temple exists. Then there WAS a Ng Mui and Gee Shim. Then, that they did wing chun in some fashon. Then the temple was burnt down. Then they fled to the red boats or taught the daughter of the Bean Curd salesmen. LOL, a long, long road ahead. I would just like to know if there was such a temple related to Shaolin. Just to clarify, I am also skeptical that Wing Chun IS shaolin. Though I do see some interesting similarities to Hung Gar. Though at the moment I think they are just similarities and not a connection.

Sheldon,
I have yet to read the full artical. I read what you posted and responded to that for two reasons. I didn't have time to read the other artical, and I thought you posted the major portions of it. I understand you feel this is the mother load, and that is fine. Hopefully it is. But many others have viewed these sites and are very skeptical. These are not the only "scholars" working on the situation. I think the key piece is there own admission that they have found NO EVIDENCE. I think that is pretty clear. But, I will read the full link.

No one is against a southern shaolin temple. But I think many people are very skeptical and are tired of phseudo science, not saying this research project falls into that catagory. There is a want and a wish for the data to support the hypothosis and it can affect the conclusion. What you posted is not proof of any kind, but is wishful thinking.

We should be able to discuss this without arguing and trolling each other. Rolling Hand and Sheldon are a little sensitive to opposition. Regardless what happens on other threads, I think good healthy debates would be needed here. It is alway done in accademic and scientific persuits. If some one is trying to supoprt their claims, such as archeology, then they should be willing to discuss the bad as well as the good. The existance or not of a shaolin temple, a connection to martial arts, and a direct connection to wing chun does not change anything in any way shape or form. Our wing chun is still our wing chun.

Tom
________
Gay xxx (http://www.****tube.com/categories/22/gay/videos/1)

[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

But many others have viewed these sites and are very skeptical. These are not the only "scholars" working on the situation. I think the key piece is there own admission that they have found NO EVIDENCE. I think that is pretty clear.

Surely, if you're going to be so vocal about it, shouldn't you check it out for first before saying that "someone else has already done it out for you".:confused:

Tom wrote>

We should be able to discuss this without arguing and trolling each other. Rolling Hand and Sheldon are a little sensitive to opposition

I'm not a little sensitive to opposition, I just believe that there's Good and Evil;) , I don't mind opposition at all, but I can't stand the "well someone else told me that and that's the truth" type of mentality.
Now I'm ready for the comeback's and quotes on this but I did do my own little bit of research into it and I'm a firm believer.

Tom Wrote>

What you posted is not proof of any kind, but is wishful thinking.

Huh, so I could say the same of what you're saying/typeing then:confused:

Tom Worte>

Our wing chun is still our wing chun.

And their WC is still theirs;)

Sheldon:D

[Geezer]

Why do I feel like I'm on the WCML:confused:

There seems to be one person missing though;)

Sheldon:p

[reneritchie]

Savi,

Call me Rene. You're a smart guy, so I think you understand just fine. If not, please see my final response to your 'Point' post, that's what I mean.

RR

[reneritchie]

Sheldon - I'm confused. I agree with much of what you stated, yet we seem to find ourselves arguing about all sorts of nonsense. How can that be?

[Geezer]

You're giving me a big head;)


And just incase I'm Married:Dthat wasn't directed at you Rene.

[t_niehoff]

Someone calling themselves "Rolling Hand" wrote:

several people have decided to jump all over VTM and HFYWCK family because they feel it is all about slamming instead of learning.

-------------------

I don't know if this refers to me or not, but I'm not jumping over "VTM and HFYWCK" -- I didn't think the article Jeremy mentioned was related to either organization.

Furthermore, I don't find "history" articles published in a Kung Fu magazines particularly reliable or trustworthy. If their research is credible, they'll publish it in a scholarly journal and open it to peer review (by other experts in the area). FWIW, there are lots of articles, books and television shows on bigfoot - just as there are southern Shaolin - but that doesn't mean its existence is accepted by the scientific community or, in the southern Shaolin's case, the academic historical community.

Terence

[tparkerkfo]

Sheldon,

I wish you can stay on topic rather than draggin this into a post about questioning the post. I said flat out I did not have time to read you link. You posted a HUGE chunk with some pretty bold statements in it. I read that and repsonded. I quote:

?This find has not found any direct evidence of the Southern Shaolin Temple..."

This is there own words and I think it is telling.



I'm not a little sensitive to opposition, I just believe that there's Good and Evil;) , I don't mind opposition at all, but I can't stand the "well someone else told me that and that's the truth"


Is this not what your doing? Look, some people believe the southern temple exists and others dont. That is fine. It may very well be true. But typically you say something exists if you have some evidence. Faith matters, but it is not universal. Much of the southern shaolin's existence revolves around Faith. There is SOME minor evidence that MIGHT support the temple. And No, I admit I have not read the artical so there may be more that I have not accounted for. That is fine. As I said, I hope they find it. I would love for you to submit this artical to a real scholar and get there opinion on it though. I doubt they would put much credence into it.

What research have you done? You looked at a couple websites? Doesn't sound any more "offical" than what I have done. I have NOT been to China. I have NOT conducted research on my own. What I have done is read from a vast majority of sources various views ranging from pure opinion and speculation to legitamate research. The research has NOT yeilded any evidence of a Southern Shaolin Temple where they practiced martial arts and was the home of the southern styles like HUng Gar and wing chun. They have found some temples. They may even be budhist. They could have had SOME martial arts training even. But that is a long shot from a southern Shaolin Temple and being the birthplace for the southern arts. Why not focus on Jook Lum? They were budhists and they had martial arts? Why not the temple where Bak Mei came from? There are lots of temples.

I'll review the other sites latter today.
Tom
________
WATCH XXX MOVIES (http://www.****tube.com/)

[Geezer]

http://members.lycos.nl/saolim/zuid_shaolin.html

If you haven't got a copy of KF Mag yet you can check out this website for allot of the info.

It was quite weird I got in from work, there was my sub from KF mag and it was just like "woooh", I found this website about a year ago.

Sheldon

[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

I said flat out I did not have time to read you link

You didn't have time to read the link but you had plenty of time to comment on it.

Tom Wrote>

I wish you can stay on topic rather than draggin this into a post about questioning the post.

Tom, how can I stay on topic if you're going to comment on things you haven't even read, the link was at the top of post.
You seem to be ever so curious and post on thousands of topics surely you would have checked it out before replying or are you in the habit of jumping the gun.:confused:

Sheldon;)

[tparkerkfo]

sheldon,

This is why I hate responding to you or disussing. I repied to what you wrote not to the link. If you don't like that, then why post it? I said I will read the link tonight.
Tom
________
SHEMALE TUBE (http://www.****tube.com/categories/36/shemale/videos/1)

[Grendel]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo

I understand you feel this is the mother load, and that is fine.
Tom

Hi Tom,

Is load the word you meant? It made me laugh anyway. :D

Regards,

[scuba steve]

Here is a website with the history of the Southern Shaolin Temple Master.

Given the extensive research by the VTM which has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Wing Chun comes from southern shaolin at Fujian (or Fukien), this is even more exciting!

Here is a page which shows the current unbroken lineage of the southern Shaolin temple, from it's last Grandmaster to the current head of the system.

http://www.shaolincenter.com/lineage/lineage.htm

The wonderful thing here is that there is even a photograph of the last Grandmaster of the Southern Shaolin temple.

http://www.shaolincenter.com/lineage/djin.htm

Here is the information on the current grandmaster of southern Shaolin. I hope that the VTM, and even Kung Fu/Qigong magazine can profile Grandmaster The' and ask him about the development of Wing Chun Kuen. Who would know better than the man who became the youngest Grandmaster in Shaolin history? A man who has mastered the over 900+ forms of Shaolin?

http://www.shaolincenter.com/lineage/the.htm

Shaolin-Do has a wealth of history on the secret societies which may also be of interest to the Hung Fa Yi students here:

http://www.starmgc.com/shaolin/history.html

Additionally there is even a book on Shaolin cowritten by the Grandmaster!

http://www.starmgc.com/shaolin/book.jpg

From the pose on the cover one can even SEE the influences of the Crane which would lead one to Wing Chun!

This true treasure of a book is available on Amazon.com.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0787212423/shaolindowebsiteA/103-2742188-4461426

I expect it will appear in many stockings in the Ohio and Arizona areas as a true link to Wing Chuns past. It is heartwarming indeed to see the amount of facts and real proof out there on the TRUTH about Wing Chun and Shaolin. It is a pleasant surprise to discover yet another organization which has unveiled the truth in such a complete and detailed manner, which rivals that of the scholarship of other well known martial research organizations.

I greatfully share this information with my Kung Fu brothers and will continue on my quest to find other credible sources of Wing Chun history and science.

Onward!

[Grendel]

"What we need is not the will to believe, but the wish to find out, which is the exact opposite." ---Bertrand Russell

[byond1]

lol....well guys...ive been healing for the past 2 months from having my car fire bombed, loosing my job, loosing my house, having to deal with riots where i now live, getting into a fight and fractureing my knuckle and going into severe shock from a very nasty flew bug...iove been real depressed and ....i couldnt wait to get back and talk with my wck brothers and sisters......but nothing changes...same petty arguments....same claims with no evidence...same bs

[reneritchie]

Hey Brian,

Sorry to hear about all your recent woes. Hopefully the valley merely leads to yet higher peaks. Rest up and take care!

BTW- Nothing ever changes. Not in the last 150 years, at least, as this stuff has been churning since then, and likely will continue to. You have to know that going in.

It's like this old guy in Chinatown who claimed to do Cymbal Qigong. He would get up on stage, clang about, and ask people if they felt the enormous heat generated from his Qigong. No one ever did, but the old timers all winked and nodded and let him go about it anyway.

RR