Praying Mantis Sets

[Shen Zhou]

Greetings

I have a question in two parts. My first question is how many WHF mantis stylest pratice both sets Dzuui Daa Dzern Moon Sun (Drunken Beating of the Guarding Door Diety) and the Dzuui Law Hon (Drunken Arhat) sets?

And secondly to everyone not in the WHF Clan but mainly Tainan Mantis what version of Ba Zhao (Eight Elbows/ Talons) do you train and with what typs of energy is used. Does the the Mui Faa version have more big Plum Flower motions VS. Qi Xing with the sharp quick motions?

Thank you all for your input.
Shen Zhou

[Young Mantis]

Shen Zhou,

I am a WHF lineage Mantis practitioner and in regards to the drunken sets:

At my school, several students have learned the “Juey Law Hawn” form. Since it is not a basic level form, it has been taught to intermediate level students and above and based on Sifu’s judgement of their abilities.

As for the “Juey Da Jeung Muun Sun” form, Sifu knows the form and has extracted techniques from the form that utilize the ground-fighting techniques for us to practice. He has not taught the form in its entirety to anyone yet. According to Sifu, this form is a ground fighting form more so than a drunken form. There is a section during which the practitioner punches and strikes while he walks/runs in circular patterns in a “drunken” state but otherwise, the form mostly consists of ground fighting techniques. Also, the form seems to be structured into specific routes, like the Tahm Tui form or LGY’s Basic 14 Roads. Each road or section starts with an opening or ready posture.

YM

[Shen Zhou]

Thanks for your reply YM you answered my question. As far as I understand it, only one person that I know who knows this form ( Juey Da Jeung Muun Sun) (Do you know who taught him this form) is your Sifu. When your school trains the "Drunken Arhat" do you also use this form as a ground fighting form? In my school my sifu teaches this set also at the advance to mid level for it ground fighting, throws, and excapes from skilled locks and holds. These techniques are for when you get into trouble and have to get out fast. Also YM where in your schools system does Ba Zhou begin to be taught. Middle or Advance? Again Thank you for your relpy. Great reply

Shen Zhou

[BearBear]

slightly off topic..

there is a little book in 1980 called praying mantis locking hand book by jose p chua ..
the form is called "the locking hand" form ..

can anyone tell me the chinese name for this form, other english names? is it a Bung Bu mform?

thanks

[Young Mantis]

Shen Zhou,

We also train the "Juey Law Hawn" form for its ground-fighting techniques and escapes from bad situations. The scissor-legs techniques are good for taking down a standing opponent from the ground and for keeping opponents away while on the ground.

As for the "Juey Da Jeung Muun Sun", I do not know exactly who taught Sifu this form. He is a closed-door disciple of late Grandmaster Brendan Lai. Sigung Lai also sent Sifu to train with his fellow classmates in HK including Master So Siu Ming and Master Yuen Man Kai, etc. Sifu also had training with late Master Peter Kwong when he came to visit NY. Sifu also spent time with late Master Lo Man Bil in Boston, MA and would often go to Boston to help him teach. So somewhere during his training, and I have not even included his time in China, he picked up this form.

I don't know how it is regarded at your school or other schools, but in ours, "Baht Dzau" is reserved for advanced and instructor-in-training level students. Even then, it is based on Sifu's discretion as to who he teaches this form. Although this form is not very difficult to learn, not every advanced level and above student is taught this form.

YM

[Young Mantis]

BearBear,

I know exactly which book you are referring to, it is in our school's library. Sifu liked collecting any book on the Northern Mantis style.

I went over the book today and I believe the form he is doing is supposed to be "Sup Baht Sau" (Eighteen Ancestors) although some sequences are different in his version from ours and every other version I have seen. It opens and ends very similarly although some of the techniques are different, it is easy to identify as "Sup Baht Sau". However, in the middle of the form, the sequence changes erratically from ours although almost all of the individual techniques are accounted for, just in a different sequence. You can check our website: www.northernmantis.com for our version to compare. In the Forms section we have now included pics of Sifu doing both "Bung Bo" and "Sup Baht Sau". For many of the techniques, Mr. Chua's usage also differs from ours.

If this is a different form from "Sup Baht Sau", then I don't know it nor do I know of a Northern Mantis form that translates as "The Locking Hand". However, there are many locking and trapping techniques in "Sup Baht Sau".

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

Shenzhou,
I learned 8 Elbows from Mantis108 and Ilya Profatilov.
They both have their own PM forums where you can direct your questions.

Their versions can both be traced to Liang Hsuehsiang, but the diffeences are substantial. But they are definetly the same form.

As far as 8 Talons, I have seen the manuscript. WHF's writing style is very clear and all the techniques I have seen or learned in other forms.
With this knowledge I tentatively deduce that this form is completely unrelated to 8 Elbows.

WHF only gives a partial explanation of 8 elbows and lists some elbow techniques.

Other schools, including mine, list 8 elbows as short parts of the body that includes the elbow.

Old Shaolin manuscript from Ming calls it 8 Sharp points, very similar.

[Young Mantis]

Tainan,

You have seen a manuscript for 8 Talons written by WHF? Was it a published book for this form like his others, or was this something written in his hand? As I have stated in other posts, I do not know of a 8 Talons form in the WHF or even LGY curriculum. I asked my Sifu last night and he too, in his 30 plus years in the Praying Mantis Style and Chinese martial arts does not know of this form and I can not think of anyone else more qualified to speak about the WHF curriculum than him.

That said, if I may ask, who is your source for WHF information? I know through past discussions with you that you own or have read many of his books but as I understand it, you did not formally study this lineage yet you comment on it frequently. I am trying to understand why you seem to disregard whatever comments I make regarding the WHF lineage and continue with your perceptions about it. Perhaps you have found a more reliable source for your information about my lineage?

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

Young Mantis,
Thank you for taking the time to reply.

First, to answer your questions.
-There is an 8 Elbows manuscript publshed in a HK book. It is written in the unique WHF style.
Mantis108 can provide more details on this book itself.

-Lee Kamwing teaches 8 Talons.
-A list of forms from Brendan Lai lists 8 Talons.
-At the beginning of this thread Shen Zhou mentioned 8 Talons.

Shen Zhou,
Where did you hear that name mentioned?

I have found nothing else to indicate this form was taught in HK.
I am very curious to know how it entered HK 7* and who brought it in.

The beginning of the form matches the HK 7* Jai Yao forms very closely, so right off the bat it seems unrelated to 8 Elbows.

As for quoting WHF...
-He did a tremendous job of standardizing the curriculum which makes it easier to understand. Especially names of techniques.

- WHF quotes Sheng Hsiao Dao Ren.
There are other versions of Sheng Hsiao's manuscript, but the quotes from WHF are best known.

-I did semi formally study this lineage as WHF's student came to Taiwan to exchange kung fu with my Shrfu, Shr Zhengzhong, as well as my Shrfu travelling many times to HK to study with masters of TJPM as well as 7*.

The 7* 2 man sets and drills in Taiwan have similarities and differences to HK 7*.

This is information is included in our curriculum.

I keep mentioning 8 Talons in the hope of finding out where this form came from.

Anybody...?

[BearBear]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
BearBear,

I know exactly which book you are referring to, it is in our school's library. Sifu liked collecting any book on the Northern Mantis style.

I went over the book today and I believe the form he is doing is supposed to be "Sup Baht Sau" (Eighteen Ancestors) although some sequences are different in his version from ours and every other version I have seen. It opens and ends very similarly although some of the techniques are different, it is easy to identify as "Sup Baht Sau". However, in the middle of the form, the sequence changes erratically from ours although almost all of the individual techniques are accounted for, just in a different sequence. You can check our website: www.northernmantis.com for our version to compare. In the Forms section we have now included pics of Sifu doing both "Bung Bo" and "Sup Baht Sau". For many of the techniques, Mr. Chua's usage also differs from ours.

If this is a different form from "Sup Baht Sau", then I don't know it nor do I know of a Northern Mantis form that translates as "The Locking Hand". However, there are many locking and trapping techniques in "Sup Baht Sau".

YM

THANKS HEAPS!!

Great Website. Very Interesting to compare the forms on ur website.

18 years later .. i finally know WHAT this form is :P sup bart sau

sup bart sau means 18 ancester or hands? what are the 18 ancester / hands? any information on it? the 2 man set is not completely shown.. any idea where i can find it.

I was given this book as gift by a friend since i studied "Praying Mantis" ... which i indeed did .. except SOUTHERN Praying Mantis hehehe ..

thanks for ur help.

BearBear

ps. i just saw the characters on ur web page.. so "Ancesters"

any info on this form appreciated.

thanks

[NPM]

Tainan Mantis,


Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
-Lee Kamwing teaches 8 Talons.
-A list of forms from Brendan Lai lists 8 Talons.

Well, I am a disciple of late Grandmaster Brendan Lai who was himself a disciple of late Great Grandmaster Wong, Hon Funn (WHF). Ever since I began studying this style in the early 70’s I have done research and analysis of the style and traveled throughout the U.S., Hong Kong, and China to learn more about it. In my travels, I have met many Sibaks under WHF and also some Sisooks and Sibaks under late Grandmaster Chiu, Chi Man and also Sisook and Sibak under Master Chan, Chun Yi in HK. I also met Sisook and Sibak under Master Kwok, Chi Sek in China who were also disciples under Law, Gwong Yook (LGY). In addition while in China, I had the chance to view the hand-copied versions of LGY’s manuscripts for many of the forms, theories, and concepts that were written in the old literary Chinese style (different from WHF’s style of naming techniques). In addition to the list of forms and kuen po themselves, many of the theories and concepts were written in the style of old Chinese poems through which the method, usage, and application of the style was taught.

Of course, I do not know everything and I would not say that I have heard or seen all there is to know about my style. But in the thirty years that I have been studying the Northern Praying Mantis Style, I am sure that we do not have this form in the system under Law, Gwong Yook. I am not sure and I don’t care if some of my “gung fu cousins” have forms that I do not have or never heard of, but I am sure that this form “8 Talons” is not a form passed down by LGY.

The word “zhao” meaning elbow has the same pronunciation as the word “zhao” meaning talon/claw. Another example of mistranslation of characters happens often with the form “Sup Baht Sao” in which many people mistake the word “sao” meaning ancestor for the word “sao” meaning hand. In both cases, the words have the same pronunciation and therefore are often mistaken if transmitted orally.

NPM

[Tainan Mantis]

NPM,
Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed answer.
This is exactly what I was looking for.
But I can't help wondering where this modern 8 talons form comes from.

About "sao" being ancestor or hand.
You say ancestor is incorrect and it should be hand?
If WHF had access to old manuscripts from Luo Guangyu wouldn't he have seen the hand character?

[NPM]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
NPM,
Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed answer.
This is exactly what I was looking for.
But I can't help wondering where this modern 8 talons form comes from.

About "sao" being ancestor or hand.
You say ancestor is incorrect and it should be hand?
If WHF had access to old manuscripts from Luo Guangyu wouldn't he have seen the hand character?

Tainan Mantis,

You seem to have misunderstood my post. I did not say the form "Sup Baht Sao" should be translated as "18 Hands". I was stating that the word "sao" is often mistaken for hand instead of ancestor. I was trying to provide another example of mistaking words because of same pronunciation. You can check my website at www.northernmantis.com if you wish to see the Chinese characters I use for the form.

As for your curiosity about the "8 Talons" form, I am sorry I could not give you an answer about this form. Perhaps there are other members of this forum who know this form and can help you. But let me remind you and the forum that in the past generations, there were some great masters who did not know how to read and write.

NPM

[Tainan Mantis]

NPM,
I got it. Ancestors... not hands.
I have visited your website many times. It is one of the best made MA websites.
Is that you on the home page doing the postures?
Looks very crisp.

[NPM]

To BearBear and Tainan Mantis,

I am honored and humbly say "thank you for your compliments".

NPM

[Young Mantis]

BearBear,

According to the history passed down to us, the Northern Praying Mantis style was created by synthesizing the essence of 18 different styles of fighting, each attributed to a famous martial artist in Chinese history. Therefore, the form "Sup Baht Sao" is so named to commemorate the 18 styles that makeup our praying mantis style. There have been many threads in this forum on this topic and instead of listing them all again, I would defer you to doing a search on 18 style poem. I believe Mantis108 has the most extensive list of versions of this part of the history and you can address him for more in-depth information.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

I Have since had a chance to see the 8 Talons form.
It is a good form connected with the type of logic seen in all the HK 7* forms as well as same type of movement.

It is not the ba zhou form, that is for sure.

How about 18 elders.
Does anyone see a sample of each of the 18 family methods in this form?

[Young Mantis]

Tainan Mantis,

I know you will insist on saying that HK7* does not have the 8 Elbows form, only the 8 Talons just as I will continue to insist that HK7* (at least the LGY-WHF lineage) does indeed have the 8 Elbows form. As I have said before, in addition to the HK7* version, I was also taught a version of 8 Elbows from a TJMHTL sifu and they are similar enough for me to say that they are the same form although stylisticly different and plus or minus a few movements.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

YM,
No, no I won't insist at all.
If you say you have the 8 Elbows form I believe you.
I didn't realize you said that.

The 8 Talons form I mentioned has about the same first 10 moves of your zhai yao forms.
that is not the 8 elbows form you mean then?


Since you have seen the 2 versions of 8 elbows then that settles it.

But I had the understanding that Fan Xu Dong didn't have any other tudi with 8 elbows.
So there are still some unanswered questions.

[German Bai Lung]

So here are once more my cents:

8 talons: which chinese charactersdo you mean?

There is no form, Sifu Lee Kam Wing teaches, that can translated so!

He teaches:

Yat Lou Ba Jau - yi lu ba zhou one way to rule with the ellbow
and
Yi Lou Ba Jau - er lu ba zhou second way to rule with the ellbow

Sifu Lee himself wrote the Characters down for me!

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
YM,
No, no I won't insist at all.
If you say you have the 8 Elbows form I believe you.
I didn't realize you said that.

The 8 Talons form I mentioned has about the same first 10 moves of your zhai yao forms.
that is not the 8 elbows form you mean then?


Since you have seen the 2 versions of 8 elbows then that settles it.

But I had the understanding that Fan Xu Dong didn't have any other tudi with 8 elbows.
So there are still some unanswered questions.

TM,
The three Zhai Yao forms do indeed share the same 9 moves opening. None of my other WHF lineage forms starts that way including Baht Zhao (8 Elbows) so I am sure it is not the 8 Talons form you have seen.

I have also since found other books that mimic WHF's technical writing style so I would not be surprised if you saw a manuscript for this form in that style of writing. I would hesitate though to assume that it was penned by WHF since I have still yet to have anyone confirm from my WHF lineage that this form existed in his curriculum.

Definitely some questions still about the 8 Talons form. Do you know the lineage of the practitioner who you observed playing the form?

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

YM,
The Lineage was Lee Kam Wing.
LKW, when learning my shrfu's version, also told him he had such a form.

Bai Lung(White Dragon?),
This info condradicts your info and you know master Lee right?
So maybe what I tiold YM is hooey and I messed up.
Did your shrfu specifically say he doesn't have such a form?

[MantisifuFW]

Tainan,

The official Lee Kam Wing site of England does not list this set, eight talons. I checked Chu Chi Man's Kuen Po and it does not list this set either. Curious...

It may be left out of Sifu Lee's curriculum today. It apparently was never a part of Chu Chi Man's corpus nor was it with Wong Hon Fun's corpus either.

Thank you and all for their input in this, I have learned a lot.

Steve Cottrell

[GermanMantis]

Hi Tainan/Steve,

look upon LKW's list, i can't find the form too.
Here is the Hong Kong List of LKWs Forms (http://home4u.hongkong.com/health/fitness/mantis/AllForms.html)
Best regards
Chris

[GermanMantis]

But it's really funny!

... for example:

Kung Nek Kuen = is not 7-Star Mantis
Jeet Kuen = is not 7-Star Mantis
Fook Fu Huan Jo Kuan = is not 7-Star Mantis
Pa Kua Darn Do = is not 7-Star Mantis
Ng Fu Cheung = is not 7-Star Mantis


Yes, indeed these are Chin Woo forms, as you pefectly recognize.
What is the problem?

[MantisifuFW]

GermanMantis,

As you have stated in previous posts, Hong Kong mantis has the distinction of being a part of the Qingwu curriculum. As such, many instructors of Hong Kong lineage can and do teach the Qingwu sets and their Luo Guangyu Tanglang sets. Others, observing that these were not originally a part of Tanglang, have dropped those sets since those instructors left the Qingwu organization. Lee Kam Wing, as I understand it, remains a part of the Qingwu and apparently chooses to keep those sets.

The distinction is often drawn here in the Americas between instructors who teach the Qingwu sets and those who do not. The way I understand it, those HK Tanglang practitioners who do not teach Qingwu sets feel that they are more "pure" in their Tanglang. Those HK Tanglang practitioners who include the Qingwu sets feel that they are their heritage and that it gives great training in fundamentals.

However, when I was on the mainland I found that instructors drew a further distinction, between those sets which were created by Luo Guangyu or brought into Seven Star by him and those sets which were a part of Tanglang as it existed in Yantai or Qingdao. There, it is considered more pure not to have the sets associated with Luo Guangyu's development and to remain with those associated with Yang Weixin or Lin Jingshan.

Ultimately, to me, which traditional series of sets one uses is of secondary importance to the principles, tactics and techniques that make up one's Tanglang. It is how one uses the art that is of primary importance. (Of course, I say this as I carefully research the history, techniques, variations and applications of the WHF Northern Praying Mantis sets I use!)

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[GermanMantis]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
The distinction is often drawn here in the Americas between instructors who teach the Qingwu sets and those who do not. The way I understand it, those HK Tanglang practitioners who do not teach Qingwu sets feel that they are more "pure" in their Tanglang.


How does this fit with Sifu Pel's post? He insists on teaching the
original 10 Chin Woo forms and at the same being a traditional mantis teacher.


Originally posted by Kai Uwe Pel
However on the other hand I also feel there are a lot of unproductive topics and discussions taking place that appear to be taking people further from the real meaning of praying mantis and traditional kung fu overall.

I would like to encourage everyone, who trains in traditional mantisboxing to do so with focus and dedication.



And taken from www.chinwoomen.com/faq.html
Originally - The 10 Chin Woo Basic Forms - Huo Yuen Jia's Mi Zong Yi - Ying Zhao Fanzi Men (Eagle Claw) - Er Lang Men (traditional North Shaolin) - Qi Xing Tang Lang Quan (Northern Mantis) - Wu Shi Tai Chi. Our Shanghai World Chin Woo Men can teach All of these.
I'm very curious on his next post, as he foreshadowed in this thread. Also i like to mention that this post is not be meant as an insult but as a curious question. :(

[GermanMantis]

Hi ShanghaiKid,

yes logic is alway a proble, 'caus everybody has his one logic.
Maybe you still can help me out, because some point are still not clear.


Originally posted by shanghai_kid
To include some of them in a list of 'seven star mantis forms' is misleading. In the case of the list you provided, this comes from a 'jing wu' school also.

You say the list comes from a jing wu school, where seven star mantis is taught and additional the jing wu forms.
The same can be found on your page 'chinwoomen' were the 10 chin woo forms are the basics and then i can decide which way i want to go. So the difference is just the numer of chin woo forms and the style to choose.

I don't realy care, if these forms are chin woo forms and not 'traditional mantis forms' (what realy is tradition? something that is passed on, nothing more)
It's an easy way to point out that a published curriculum does contain foreign forms, but it's a sign of strenght and pride to exopse it. BTW why can't i find a list on your page. (Ahh Yes it's still in progress. ;) )

But nevertheless Sifu Pel wants to clear up, whats about with the chin woo forms. We are all very curious.

[GermanMantis]

Originally posted by shanghai_kid
"You say the list comes from a jing wu school, where seven star mantis is taught and additional the jing wu forms.
The same can be found on your page 'chinwoomen' were the 10 chin woo forms are the basics and then I can decide which way I want to go. So the difference is just the number of chin woo forms and the style to choose."

There is no list of forms on our site. So you cant find the same on our site.
What we are talking about eggs 'n apples, or the chin woo forms?


The FAQ clearly states that you do not have to learn the 10 basic forms first. Only that you must know them to graduate as a teacher. It's Question 14 out of 20.

There is no point in replying to you any more unless you read what you're talking about first. Properly. Just give me a private message. It's less embarrasing.
Methinks, that's not my silence that is embarrasing. :rolleyes:

[MantisCool]

In Malaysia, we have around 10 Chin Woo Schools. In these schools, they teaches forms from the "Tham Tui" Style. And the 10 basic Chin Woo forms are from this Tham Tui Style.

All students must learn this 10 forms before they can join the other styles. Unfortunately, the only styles available are Tham Tui, Eagle Claws and Tai Chi. And the sifus of Tham Tui usually teaches the other styles as well!

Then came the Preying mantis. The Preying Mantis was found in Penang, Kuala Lumpur and Singapore CW. Now, it is only taught in Penang Chin Woo. In Penang, we only learn the Preying Mantis, we dont have to learn the 10 Tham Tui forms because we are a force to reckon with! And also due to the facts that my sifu doesnt practise other styles whereas the other sifu "Li Bo Yan" also teaches other styles.

So, the 10 so called Chin Woo forms are in fact from Tham Tui Style.