Recommend a Nietzsche book

[IronFist]

If I wanted to read a book by Nietzsche, which one would be the best? I see he has a few books.

IronFist

[Serpent]

This is eulerfan's area of expertise.

Gwen?

[eulerfan]

Ecce H0m0 is a great starter for freddy.

It's not his best but it'll ease you into his style and personality.

[desertwingchun2]

Penguin Classics
"A Nietzsche Reader" By R.J. Hollingdale

This is sort of a short collection of his philosophical works. The ISBN # is 0-14-044-329-0

Later,
David

[OneStrike]

IMO you're better off with The Genealogy of Morals. If you can get it in an anthology with The Birth of Tragedy, as a couple of publishers have done, so much the better.

[Prairie]

I've only read one of his works: Thus Spake Zarathustra

It's been a year or two and didn't appreciate the philosophy at the time. Still, I'd recommend giving it a read.

[IronFist]

What is Zarathustra? I've seen that word a bit.

IronFist

[OneStrike]

"Zarathustra" is the German version of the name "Zoroaster". Zoroastrianism is an old Persian religion believed to be one of the first if not the first forms of monotheism. It's also speculated that a concept of good/evil like the one we get from Christianity first arose in Zoroastrianism. There are still quite a few Zoroastrians around, but you have to look carefully to find them.

Nietzsche wrote a book called "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" ("Also Sprach Zarathustra" in German) which illustrates in allegorical form some of his philosophical (if you can call them that) positions. It's definitely *not* a good introduction to Nietzsche's thought. It's obscure and elliptical, and doesn't accurately reflect Nietzsche's best qualities since he spends the whole book lampooning Biblical language. It's mediocre at best as far as his works go, and very poor in terms of an introduction to Nietzsche's thought.

[OneStrike]

Also, if that reader Desertwingchun2 suggested is the one I'm thinking of, it's organised according to topic and gives you a good sense of what Nietzsche thought on a variety of subjects - ironically, though, the way the book is layed out is the antithesis of the way Nietzsche intended his work to be experienced.

If you're after the "authentic Nietzsche experience", get the Genealogy of Morals (Or one of the other complete books mentioned in this thread apart from "Thus Spoke Zarathustra") - if you want to get a good idea of what Nietzsche thought on a variety of topics, get a reader like the Hollingdale one.

[OdderMensch]

Zarathustra, however, looked at the people and wondered. Then he spoke thus:

Man is a rope stretched between the animal and the Ubermensch- a rope over an abyss. A dangerous crossing, a dangerous wayfaring, a dangerous looking-back, a dangerous trembling and halting. What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal: what is lovable in man is that he is an over-going and a down-going.

[Ray Pina]

Thus Spoke is good.

Also look into Beyond Good and Evil.

Check out C.S.Lewis's Heaven and Hell as a side reading. A very good book that could be read in a single sitting.

[Former castleva]

Kind of different philosophy,nihilism (as to refuse to believe in a thing) I do not know much about Nietzhe but I´ve heard he had some kind of a connection to nazis or something like that,and other strange stuff.
He committed suicide as far as I remember...
Great quote of his-"Which does not kill,makes one stronger" will stick to my mind though.

[Ford Prefect]

Beyond Good and Evil is the only Nietche I've read. It was interesting, but it definately didn't make me go out and buy another of his works.

[OneStrike]

The Nazis wished he had a connection to them. Nietzsche's sister was a rabid anti-Semite, if I remember rightly, and she forged a number of letters which suggested he would have supported them.

Nietzsche had nothing but contempt for anti-Semites and anti-Semitism. He saw it as a symptom of societal decay. He wasn't a big fan of nihilists either.

Again, steer clear of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" - it's not indicative of Nietzsche's work.

Also, Ford Prefect is correct.

[eulerfan]

double post

[eulerfan]

When I want to tackle a difficult author, I go with his easiest work first.

When I decided to read The Brothers Karamazov, I picked up Crime and Punishment and read that first.

When I decided to read Gravity's Rainbow, first thing I did was buy The Crying of Lot 49. Then I got V.

I don't even want to go into how many books I read to prepare myself for Ulysses.

So, if you want to go my way, I think Ecce H0m0 is the one to choose. I just think it's his easiest read and he's pretty funny in it. But my sense of humor is pretty twisted. I think Henry Miller is hilarious.

This made me think of my favorite quote of his. I think I'll change my sig.

P.S. The name is probably familiar to you because of a song. You know that song they played whenever you saw the monolith in 2001 a space Odessy? dum dum BA DAAAA!! bum bum bum bum bum bum. dum dum BA DAAAA!!!

It's called Also Sprach Zarathustra.

[OneStrike]

That's a fair point, eulerfan. I was pulling for Genealogy of Morals for two main reasons. Firstly it's from the latter half of his career, as is Ecce ****, and I think Nietzsche is one of those philosophers/authors who actually did progress in improving both his style and the perspicuity of his thinking over the course of his academic career.

Secondly, I think it deals with an issue that not only has a fascination that's a fresh today as it was when written, but which lends itself to Nietzsche's strengths. He's at his best, IMO, when he's on the attack and ripping through what he sees as the conceits of past and present ideologues.

Ecce **** is a great book, and it's important for anyone who wants to get a good understanding of Nietzsche and his work, but it's so intensely personal in a lot of ways that I think a more typical work written in a less introspective manner provides a better general overview of his thought and style.

[OneStrike]

Oh, and I don't know if you've read Genealogy of Morals, but IMO it's as easy-going if not more so than Ecce ****.

[Ray Pina]

I think the important question you have to ask yourself Ironfist is what are you looking to get out of Nietzsche?

I was a Philo major in college and got big into him at one point, as well as Hume, Decarte, ect. But all I found were word arguments and cliches, such things like one could never put their foot into the same river twice. No duh!

I can't get into books anymore where a man is trying to pass on his view and model of the world and man's place in it -- unless they are extremely excpetional.

I have always been partial to eastern philo -- especially Taoism -- which sticks to a singular mentality: your place right here and now.

But all roads I guess.

Things change. Hopefully you are changing, growing, day by day. Western philosophy in some sense is less open then science, which seeks new answers. With philo it still comes down to HOW DO YOU perceive the world. That's your world.

Enjoy though, it beats the hell out of American Idle and Survivor VI: the quest for oxygen on the moon.

[KC Elbows]

Fred Nietzsche did a great book on the history of canned meat. It was called "Thus Spoke the Extruda". Great book.

Someone shoot me. I'm trolling philosophy threads.

[eulerfan]

AHHH, I have read it.

However, to be fair, I started with Ecce ****, myself. I may have attributed the ease of Genealogy to my familiarity with his writing style when it was, in fact, an easier read than Ecce.

I talked to a bunch of people about where to start and most suggested Ecce but I think that was because my intention was to read his oeuvre. It was a while ago but I think the intention was to read a more personal work, to understand the psyche before getting into the philosophy.

So, Genealogy it is, then. Good show. ;)

[Chang Style Novice]

Philosophy is for losers. Fine Arts is where it's at! to understand existence, what you must do is stare unblinkingly at this (http://amor.rz.hu-berlin.de/~h2863i74/Pics/bocc.jpg) until it all becomes clear. Of course, it will take longer than if you could view it from every angle in person, but it'll still be a better use of your time than silly ol' reading Nietzche.

This (http://amor.rz.hu-berlin.de/~h2863i74/Pics/balla.jpg) may help, too.

edit -

Omigod, she's read Pynchon! Girl, you are too tempting for words...

[quiet man]

Ecce **** (censored)? H0m0?
So, basically, when Pontius Pilate said those words to Jesus Christ, he was actually saying: "Behold the ****sexual"?
I think this auto-censor is playing some silly games on us...

I knew Latin was dirty!

[quiet man]

Omigod, she's read Pynchon! Girl, you are too tempting for words...

CSN, I agree with you 100%. Any woman who reads Thomas Pynchon deserves a giant plus in my book :D ...

Delivered by W.A.S.T.E.(tm)

[fa_jing]

I praise, I do not reproach, [nihilism's] arrival. I believe it is one of the greatest crises, a moment of the deepest self-reflection of humanity. Whether man recovers from it, whether he becomes master of this crisis, is a question of his strength. It is possible. . . . (Complete Works Vol. 13)

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice

Omigod, she's read Pynchon! Girl, you are too tempting for words...

Oh yeah, I love the weirdness.

You like Pynchon? You should try an author named William T. Vollman. "You Bright and Risen Angels"
It's a pretty cool book but not one I would recommend to many.

[Chang Style Novice]

it's on the list, then. Right now I'm just doing a little light reading and trying to finish LotR before the next movie comes out.

I'm super impressed that you've read Joyce. That's outta my league so far. The toughest sob I've made it through a novel by is Faulkner, and I wasn't able to finish Absalom! Absalom! even though I was enjoying it.

[guohuen]

Beware the Nietzche! Makes young people (not jung) smoke skinny cigarettes, dress in black and express fatalistic views.

[fa_jing]

Guohen - actually, it was Sartre and the Left-bank crowd in Paris that popularized that look. Nietzsche neither drank nor smoked.

[eulerfan]

I don't really like Faulkner. Flannery O'Connor, on the other hand....

Actually, if you'd prefer something easier at the moment, I have another suggestion.

This is sort of hard to explain. You know how people who are hard core about music LOVE King Crimson. People who aren't pretty serious about music don't really like them that much.

But there are bands that are much more mainstream, more palatable, easier to appreciate who were heavily influenced by them. Like Primus.

There is a sci-fi author named Neal Stephenson who is the Primus to Pynchon's King Crimson.

His web site is pretty funny:
http://www.well.com/user/neal/

Put Don Delillo on your list, too.

And.......

Somebody shut me up.

[Chang Style Novice]

I don't much care for Stephenson. Admittedly, I've only read "Snow Crash" but I thought that the first chapter was a hilarious short story that got expanded into a terrible book. It was enough to send me away up to the present.

DeLilo's okay, but he doesn't really excite me much. Ever read anything by Richard Powers? I haven't kept up with him lately, but I like everything before Galatea 2.0 a whole lot.

[Braden]

EvolutionFist - Have you tried getting into some of the existentialists, German idealists, and/or western philosophers with strong Platonic (rather than Aristotlean) influence? You might find them more to your liking (or even quite interesting).

[eulerfan]

I've only read The Cryptonomicon of Stephenson's. I don't like sci-fi and only read it if somebody insists one book is amazing. I think Cryptonomicon was sold to me on its mathematics. I loved it. It's not really sci-fi but it's highly tech minded.

That other guy is sci-fi?

[guohuen]

Your right, duh. I'd never survive on the left bank. I'm too into Will Rogers and Mark Twain.:p

[Chang Style Novice]

Richard Powers? Not really. He's into the relationships between numbers and music and logic problems and stuff, and Galatea 2.0 (the least interesting book I've read from him) is about a stab at creating an artificial intelligence, but there's certainly none of the usual sf/cyberpunk trappings. The best books I've read by him are The Gold Bug Variations and The Prisoner's Dilemma

There's also Tim Powers, though, who does historical fiction with a fantasy twist and I like him a lot, too. For example, his best book The Stress of Her Regard posits that the great romantic poets were victims of a strange kind of half siliconbased rock creature/half psychic vampire that was the true inspiration for stuff like Frankenstien and the Lama and so on. I think we might have talked about him before.

[fa_jing]

I used to think philosophy was a waste of time, as most authors tend to contradict each other over major points. However, I have found it to be more enriching as of late.

I have begun to look at philosophy like the horse stance. The earth is the foundation of your horse stance, and the stance (conceptually) is a framework for your interaction with the earth. Philosophy is a framework that we place on our phenomelogical interaction with the outside world, the "world-in-itself, " which is kind of like the earth to your horse stance, in that it cannot be directly appreciated, rather it must be there based on your interaction with it.

Groovy?

[AndrewS]

Just to add a late 2 cents,

avoid the Hollingdale (sp?) translations. I found them hopelessly dry. I prefer Kaufmann's work for conveying the richness of Nietzsche's expression.

For Vollman- Try 'Rainbow Stories' if you want to get another flavor of his work.

Andrew

[Xebsball]

Hey i have no idea what you peeps talking about, i think reading (and working too) is bad for the soul.

Philosofers i think should spend more time writting new cool stuff and less time sucking the other famous philosofers ****s.

[FatherDog]

I read a bit of Pynchon's stuff, but not a lot; I haven't had time to sit down with it. I read Snow Crash and enjoyed it quite a bit; I have the Cryptonomicon sitting around, but haven't started it yet. I read a bit of Nietzche in college for the purpose of a comparitive paper on him and Kant; always meant to read more, but haven't gotten around to it. Hrm.... I believe a trip to the library is in order. I've been meaning to borrow Down and Out in London and Paris anyway...

Tim Powers is excellent. Stress of Her Regard was cool, and I love his modern trilogy (Expiration Date, Last Call, and Earthquake Weather).

[Chang Style Novice]

I thought Tim Powers' modern trilogy would have made a great two books, but Earthquake Weather just fell flat for me. He's back on track with Declare, though.

You know who I need to read more of? No, not Nietzche. Orwell.

edit

Oh, fine. I probably need to read more (any) Nietzche, too.

[IronFist]

Well, the reason I want to read Nietzsche is because I keep hearing his name pop up, so I want to see what everybody is talking about :)

eulerfan, I totally know what you're saying about the King Crimson music comparison. I am totally down with bands like that (except more recent ones)... Nightwish, Stratovarius, Children of Bodom, Dream Theater, etc., and most of my friends are like "your music is weird, I like _insert popular radio band here_."

Yes.

IronFist

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Just to add a late 2 cents,

avoid the Hollingdale (sp?) translations. I found them hopelessly dry....

Andrew

Dang Andrew - First you crowd my wing chun lineage and now dismiss my selection of Nietzsche for a beginner - get off me man !!!! ;)

Are you still planning to head to 'Frisco??
Hope your friends are as well as can be expected given the circumstances.
-David

[OneStrike]

"Philosofers i think should spend more time writting new cool stuff and less time sucking the other famous philosofers ****s."

This is very correct.

Unfortunately people like Evolution Fist can't absorb the groundwork necessary to become productive philosophers themselves, get stuck half way, give up and then badmouth philosophy to others when they know nothing about it.

"I was a Philo major in college and got big into him at one point, as well as Hume, Decarte, ect. But all I found were word arguments and cliches, such things like one could never put their foot into the same river twice. No duh!"

This is a dual problem, I think. A comprehension problem on your part since you clearly can't appreciate a sustained argument and get stuck on the aphorisms you encounter (which is probably why you liked Nietzsche without understanding him) and possibly a teaching problem if your lecturers taught you pop philosophy. Also, I don't know how you managed to find the quote "One can never step in the same river twice" when you were reading Descartes, Hume and Nietzsche.

"I can't get into books anymore where a man is trying to pass on his view and model of the world and man's place in it -- unless they are extremely excpetional."

The funny thing is that pretty much everything written falls into that category. It's one person representing their experience to another, just like you're doing in your post.

"I have always been partial to eastern philo -- especially Taoism -- which sticks to a singular mentality: your place right here and now."

And obviously this is a concept peculiar to Eastern thought since you didn't encounter it in your tentative foray into Western philosophy.

"Western philosophy in some sense is less open then science, which seeks new answers. With philo it still comes down to HOW DO YOU perceive the world. That's your world."

Again, this shows a lack of understanding about what philosophy is. You really can't do a semester or two of Nietzsche, Descartes, Hume, etc. and then think you have any concept of what philosophy is. If you did a low level undergraduate course in science, how much new research would you have to do inn the course of your degree? Or would you just be replicating the already confirmed results of other people's experiments?

Evolution Fist, you really ought to stick to what you know about. You were clearly unable to do philosophy yourself, but there's no reason to denigrate it because of your own failings.

[Xebsball]

"If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

Ironfist, thats awesome :D
I used to listen to Manowar!!! :D
Brothers of metal!!! Death to the false metal!!!

[chingei]

Did anyone mention The Gay Science yet? (no, no. nothing like what some of you are thinking....)

Good example of his theology/morality - type stuff

[Serpent]

OK, here's a request.

Eulerfan, CSN, any others that want to have a go, compile a list for me of books you think I should read. Not based on what you know about me necessarily (otherwise it would be Jane & John and Run ,Spot, Run!) Basically, books that have deeply affected you, changed your perceptions, expanded your mind, etc. Include literary fiction, pulp fiction, philosophy, anything you like. Just a good, solid list of stuff.

Can you do that for me?

Cheers! ;)

[Chang Style Novice]

It'd probably be most appropriate to make a 'book club' thread in the 'media' zone, but wtf...

a few random favorites. I'm a big comics nerd, so there's some of that on here.

Norton Juster, The Phantom Tollbooth
Jon Muth and John Kuramoto, The Stonecutter
Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow
Chris Ware, Jimmy Corrigan - the Smartest Boy in the World
T. Coreghessan Boyle, Water Music
Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell, From Hell
Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
Chuan Tzu
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Ikkyu, Wild Ways
The Book of the Subgenius
Philip K ****, Valis

okay, that should keep you busy for a week or so.

edit -

Oh, for FU(K's SAKE! D!(K is the man's FU(KING NAME!

Philip K Di(k, Valis.

CAN WE PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS RETARDED CENSOR SOFTWARE!??!?

[eulerfan]

In addition to what has been mentioned, astrisks denote personal favorites:

1. The Beach***
2. Fight Club
3. One Hundred Years of Solitude
4. The House of Leaves
5. A Clockwork Orange***
6. All the Pretty Horses
7. Winesburg, Ohio
8. In the Garden of the North American Martyrs
9. *any short stories by Raymond Carver, Flannery O'Connor or John Barth
10. The Foundation Trilogy
11. American Psycho***
12. A Passage to India
13. Johnny Got His Gun***
14. Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas***
15. A Confederacy of Dunces***
16. Cat's Cradle
17. Demian***
18. Catch-22***
19. A Brave New World
20. Call it Sleep
21. The Stranger
22. The Essays of Michel de Montaigne***

[Braden]

Representative books. In no particular order. May be different if I answered tomorrow.

Lacan
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393050580/qid=1038975953/sr=5-1/ref=cm_lm_asin/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance

Klein
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0029214815/qid=1038976137/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=books

Kierkegaard
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0874869811/qid=1038976422/sr=5-4/ref=cm_lm_asin/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance

Heidegger
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0863161723/qid=1038976521/sr=5-1/ref=cm_lm_asin/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance

Bohm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415119669/qid=1038976683/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=books

Plotinus
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0943914558/qid=1038976738/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-5585245-3652651

Jaynes
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618057072/qid=1038976854/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=books

Gazzaniga
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0390352780/qid=1038977225/sr=1-15/ref=sr_1_15/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=books

Eccles
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415058988/qid=1038977451/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=books

[Chang Style Novice]

Cat's Cradle?!!?

Why, that's nothing but foma!

[eulerfan]

Naw, there are some granfaloons in there, as well.

[Serpent]

I hear ya on the censor CSN! ****es me off too. I hate having to work around the *******! I'm also a great fan of Philip K Dick and Alan Moore.

Great lists, people; I've copied them out already for shopping trips. Feel free to keep them coming!

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Xebsball
"If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

Ironfist, thats awesome :D
I used to listen to Manowar!!! :D
Brothers of metal!!! Death to the false metal!!!

Hell yeah. I don't really listen to them that much anymore, either. But some of their stuff is still awesome. I listen to it every once in a while. I do like that quote, however :)

Did you ever notice how they re-use lyrics sometimes? Like in one song they say "if you like metal you're my friend" and in another song they say "if you're not into metal, you are not my friend." Haha. The first one is better.

Rock on Xebsball!

IronFist

[Braden]

After you've fried your brain on serious stuff, you can bathe it in a laudanum bath of giddy fun stuff:

Vonnagut
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385333498/qid=1038979527/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_9/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=books

Gaiman and Pratchett
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0441003257/qid=1038979571/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=books

Rice (only this one, fear the others)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345384466/qid=1038979693/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=books

Beckett
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802130348/qid=1038979523/sr=5-2/ref=cm_lm_asin/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance

Stoppard
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0802132758/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=books

Lovecraft
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345350804/qid=1038980004/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-5585245-3652651

Barker (again, fear some of his stuff, but this is excellent)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060937262/qid=1038980224/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-5585245-3652651

Adams
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345391802/qid=1038980369/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-5585245-3652651

Eco
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0151446474/qid=1038981426/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=books

Bonus: Extraordinary history books

A World Lit Only By Fire
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0316545562/qid=1038981511/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=books

Guns, Germs, and Steel
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393317552/qid=1038981546/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=books

Bonus: Things to bother and exite your eyes

Grey
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0892818514/qid=1038981591/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-5585245-3652651

Giger
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0962344710/qid=1038981685/sr=1-17/ref=sr_1_17/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=books

Bonus: Cartoons only dead people don't obsess over

Aeon Flux
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1573309796/qid=1038981741/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=video

Nightmare Before Christmas
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6305949972/qid=1038981866/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5585245-3652651?v=glance&s=video

[eulerfan]

That Stoppard play is one of my favorite plays next to Equus.

The Real Thing played at a theater here and, all excited, I went. It was horrible. Like the plague, avoid it.

[Braden]

Did you like the movie?

[eulerfan]

Loved it. I'd like to see Oldman and Roth do another movie together.

[Braden]

Me too! Yeah... that play is really extraordinary. The movie is one of my favorites, and made me a great fan of Tim Roth, although I'm finding myself having to repress more and more of his recent movies to keep that impression. Their dynamic onscreen always reminds me of Waiting for Godot, which I'd read first, though more clever and in a more accessible way.

[quiet man]

Hey CSN, great to hear from another comic lover! Please tell me what you think 'bout my "essential" COMICS (GRAPHIC NOVELS, LIKE :-)) list

- A. Spiegelman: "Maus" - Pulitzer prize winner; if you think comics are junk and not art, you should read this baby
- F. Miller: "Sin City"
- B. Watterson: "Calvin & Hobbes"
- J. Smith: "Bone"
- A. Moore: "Watchmen"
- N. Gaiman: "Sandman"

As for books... some other time, when you've finished eulerfan's and CSN's list :D

[Mr Punch]

Did nobody else like Twilight of the Idols...or how Fred took on and defeated a then lesser known family of Brazilian jujutsu practitioners! :rolleyes: /The Antichrist?

Othe stuff I enjoyed in absolutely no order:

The Screwtape Letters - CS Lewis.
The Perelandra series - CS Lewis.
Tao te Ching
Chuang Tzu
Book of Five Rings
A Prayer for Owen Meany - John Irving
Bluebeard - Kurt Vonnegut
Galapagos - Kurt Vonnegut
More Than Human - Theodore Sturgeon
Slapstick - Kurt Vonnegut
The Dice Man (sorry but I liked it) - Luke Reinhart
One Flew Over A Cuckoo's Nest - Ken Kesey
Electric Kool Aid Acid Test - Tom Wolfe
Autobiography of a Supertramp - forget... WH Auden rings a bell
The Black Death - Philip Zeigler
Faces of Battle - John Keegan
anything by Edward Gorey
Horton Hears a Who - Dr Seuss
The Art of War
Clockwork Orange - Anthony Burgess
many of the Icelandic Sagas esp Niall's, Egil's and Grettir's (for philosophy and entertainment)
Narrow Road to the Deep North - Matsuo Basho
Frankenstein - Mary Shelley
Lord of the Rings (I still love it for the language, the imagery, and cos JRRT was from my home!)
Ah Sweet Mystery of Life - Roald Dahl
most stuff by Spike Milligan... not actually that good but worth reading for the escape...
Crow - Ted Hughes

Love R & G Are Dead, play and movie. Anyone for tennis?!? :D

[Chang Style Novice]

How do you play tennis?

[KC Elbows]

Didn't Oldman just die?

BTW, I'm feeling seriously undereducated.

Here's some fun books and short stories, at least I thought so. Some comics as well. Most of these probably everyone has read, but I liked them nonetheless.

The Other by Thomas Tryon(please don't watch the movie first-I've yet to watch it, frankly. I like my mental picture of the story)

Watchmen(scary view of what a real superman would be like among other things-I love the serial villain speech at the end)

Quiet Lies the Locust Tells, Harlan Ellison

The three most important things in life, Harlan Ellison

A perfect day for bananafish, Salinger

A Wagner Matinee, Willa Cather

The Professor's House, Willa Cather

Hills like white elephants, Hemingway(just recently read it, previously hated Hemingway)

Naked Lunch, Burroughs(the man who taught his ******* to speak monologue is priceless)

An Occurence at Owlcreek Bridge(I know standard schoolbook story, but I think it's great, so there.:D )

BTW, I haven't read American Psycho, only saw the movie. Is there anything in the book to justify the scene where he blows up the cop car? That scene annoyed me. Disturbing as that story is, all of it was really well done except, IMO, that one section.

[Mr Punch]

Do you have the time?

[Chang Style Novice]

How long will it take?

[Mr Punch]

When do you want to start?

[Chang Style Novice]

According to my clock or yours?

[Mr Punch]

Well where are you?

[Chang Style Novice]

Can't you read my profile?

[Mr Punch]

Will you say I've lost if I change the subject a little?

[Chang Style Novice]

Isn't that in the rules?

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
Didn't Oldman just die?



But isn't KC playing?

[Chang Style Novice]

If he is, why are you asking me?

[Mr Punch]

Can we continue this some other time?!

[Chang Style Novice]

When did you have in mind?

[Xebsball]

will you two just stop before i flip out and kill the entire town

[KC Elbows]

Is that tennis?

[eulerfan]

Don't you know what tennis is?

[KC Elbows]

Is it fun?

[eulerfan]

Well, what kinds of things do you generally consider fun?

[KC Elbows]

Is that a rhetorical question?

[eulerfan]

Aren't rhetorical questions considered fouls?

[KC Elbows]

What if I gave a rhetorical answer?

[eulerfan]

Is there such a thing as a rhetorical answer?

[KC Elbows]

Did you really call me 'Mr. Elbows'?:p :D

[eulerfan]

Did that bother you?;)

[KC Elbows]

Why aren't you answering my questions?

[eulerfan]

Why would you expect to find answers anywhere but in your own heart?

[eulerfan]

uh-oh

*looks around sheepishly*

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by eulerfan
uh-oh

*looks around sheepishly*

Sheepishly, get out of the way.

[eulerfan]

15-love to you, KC.

My last one was pure rhetoric.

[KC Elbows]

I'm not sure 'rhetorical answers' wasn't cheating on my part.

[Rockwood]

You guys should take a look at Henry Bayman's "Station of No Station" he rips Nietzsche a new one, pretty much blaming him for western society's total moral and ethical collapse throughout the twentieth century. He's got some pretty good arguments in there, as well as a great article ripping the Taliban twice as hard, but that's another story.

-Jess

[Serpent]

What happened to the tennis?


(R & G Are Dead is quite simply awesome!)

[JAZA]

I read Nietzche Zaratustra before reading Hermann Hesse Siddharta, similar objective, different paths.
The Uebermench is a kind of iluminated, but more terrenal.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by Serpent
What happened to the tennis?


Did you expect us to keep that game going forever?

[Serpent]

Didn't you?

[eulerfan]

Were we talking about me?

[Serpent]

Why shouldn't we talk about you?

[eulerfan]

Because I'm a secret. Sorry. This is too much thinking for me at the moment.

[Serpent]

Aw, let me know when you're up for a game. ;)

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by Rockwood
You guys should take a look at Henry Bayman's "Station of No Station" he rips Nietzsche a new one, pretty much blaming him for western society's total moral and ethical collapse throughout the twentieth century. He's got some pretty good arguments in there, as well as a great article ripping the Taliban twice as hard, but that's another story.

-Jess

deja vu, strange.

[IronFist]

What the hell are you guys talking about? What's with all the questions?

IronFist

[Xebsball]

they is all crazy i tell you

[Serpent]

Originally posted by IronFist
What the hell are you guys talking about? What's with all the questions?

IronFist

Go rent the movie "Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead" and all will be revealed. Besides, it's an awesome movie that everyone should see. Tom Roth and Gary Oldman together. Brilliant.

[Xebsball]

you still crazy

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Xebsball
you still crazy

And that's why you love us.

[Xebsball]

yep :D

[Mr Punch]

thought-provoking...?


or wank?

[apoweyn]

my personal pick: friedrich nietzsche and the sorceror's stone

...

i got nothing.


stuart b.