Throwing Darts

[barryc108]

I understand that from the hell cool(!!) Yuen Kay San Wing Chun book the above mentioned person used throwing darts.
I was wondering whether anyone elses WCK retained this?
I am interested to know how you would use wing chun techniches/body mechanics to throw them. Im assuming short force must be part of it.
How would you hold them as you throw them? Would they have been long and wooden, like that Bruce Lee movie set in France LOL!!!

Any facts or theories?

Cheers
Barry

[yuanfen]

Do you know about Lo Man Kam(aelward's sifu) throwing chopsticks?

Interesting about the darts too.

[Geezer]

Throwing darts and chopsticks, was this something learnt on the side away from WCK or is this something that has died over the years:confused:

[barryc108]

I have heard that it was something imported in, using the WC principles but dropped to make the system more economical. I'm not the gun totting type however I think darts would be a great thing to have up my sleeve, ummm so to speak. :)

I did not know that about chopsticks. Interesting stuff.

[reneritchie]

Yuen Kay-San used fei-biu, or throwing darts, which were small, leaf shaped blades (I don't know if they were tasseled or not, but typically such darts were). Cheung Bo used kam-chin biu, or gold coin darts, which were sharpened coins. Neither used chopsticks, though I've heard Fung Siu-Ching may have on occasion. Fok Bo-Chuen was said to use the same darts as Yuen. I don't know if they were a separate skill, but Fok only knew WCK, so its possible it was part of the WCK curriculum at some point, like the pole was/is.

While the method was/is known, its takes *a lot* of training to achieve useable skill (Yuen achieved accuracy and power enough to kill birds and imbed them in trees at a good distance), and after guns became more prolific, he felt succeeding generations would be better off devoting their time to the core boxing skills (Yuen and his peers were sons of wealthy merchants and could train all day, every day, latter generations weren't always so fortunate).

RR

[barryc108]

Thanks Rene, do you know much about the technique YKS employed to throw the darts? Underhanded, flicking or pub darts style :) ?
Sharped coins .....ouch, embeding in trees dear lord!!!!!

Im sure there is a possible middle ground of having enough skill to be moderatly accurate and powerful enough to be useful. Perhaps not bird killing useful but effective non the less.

[aelward]

I think you see chopstick throwing in a lot of the wu xia style novels and movies. Whatever is in hand, use it.

My sifu DOES do throwing chopsticks. Apparently he collects hollow wooden doors, because there are several on his rooftop school. On occasion, he will demonstrate by propelling plastic chopsticks that will go throug the first layer of the door and stick out through the second layer. I think this is just a hobby though, and not part of the WC he learned :P

[churn-ging]

How many of you have seen the movie "God of Gamblers" where their throwing cards around and killing people with them?

Seems impossible to do, but would sure be a d@mn good skill to learn!!! Especially since all chinese people carry a deck of cards with them every where they go!!!:D

[tparkerkfo]

Hi All,

I have seen the chop stick throwing, but not the dart throwing. I would probably say that the dart throwing was an external skill not neccesarrily tied to wing chun. Darts were fairly common and a few people probably learned them and passed them on along with the wing chun. jsut becuase I learned how to shoot a gun, learned wing chun, and taught these skills togehter wouldn't mean it is really wing chun related. Though it could have been around and just dropped from most lineages.

The chop stick throwing was pretty cool, but in no way, shape, or form did it look like or use wing chun principles. It looked more akin to a baseball picther. A large overhead throw towards a piece of plywood. Since the chopsticks are fairly light, the throwing distance is pretty small, about 15 feet or so. Not too effective as a seperate skill. Might as well have a knife and stab the guy. The motion is not too conspicious either. LOL. But it looks cool in demonstraitions. I think the real purposr is to show control and refined power by embedding the chopsticks, as opposed to assasinating people. LOL. But the darts could be a different story.

Just my limited experience
Tom
________
Mazda Cx-7 Picture (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Mazda_CX-7)

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
Hi All,

I have seen the chop stick throwing, but not the dart throwing. I would probably say that the dart throwing was an external skill not neccesarrily tied to wing chun.

*Just my limited experience*
Tom

One of my older kungfu sisters was training her dart throwing for a while. Looked pretty "wing chun'ish" to me.

[sing fu]

While not a WC skill, one of my teachers used to train flicking small ballbearings from between his fingers. Like the chopsticks or cards, they can be annoying as hell, and might just give you a few feet your attacker won't move in on:)

Would love to see the WC darts/choppies though!

[reneritchie]

I've seen Lo Man-Kam sifu throw the chopsticks on a French documentary about Martial Arts in Taiwan (also showed him teaching some Taiwan police) and the method he used was different in kind to what was passed down in my lineage.

The idea behind the darts was that they were almost invisible in use. You didn't see them or barely any movement from the wielder, you just saw them suddenly stuck in the target. To be able to do that required very short power and precise control, so quite a bit of effort in both WCK in general and the darts in specific to achieve.

If I had to guess, I would guess the darts and the knives were similar, either part of the system since inception or integrated into early development (before the pole), since both seem to have similar goals - easily hidden, and lethal in use.

RR

[5thBrother]

A friend of mine asked me to teach him to throw spikes... Bo Shuriken-Jutsu for u Koryu types...

Anyways it made me think about Chinese Throwing Darts, Needles, Coins and such. Which i have no knowledge of. I have heard a number of times of Chinese Martial Artists known for dart throwing skills.. i think especially some that worked in Security/BodyGuard...

My friend actually go interested in it because he watched Enter The Dragon and some of the Girls throw darts in a scene.

its a fun hobby also.
i guess a martial artists versions of Beer and Darts after work hehe


So anyways... just wondering if anyone has experiences or knowlegde or pictures of Chinese throwing darts etc...

or any other country's martial arts for interests sake...

Thanks

[5thBrother]

Throwing Darts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A friend of mine asked me to teach him to throw spikes... Bo Shuriken-Jutsu for u Koryu types...

Anyways it made me think about Chinese Throwing Darts, Needles, Coins and such. Which i have no knowledge of. I have heard a number of times of Chinese Martial Artists known for dart throwing skills.. i think especially some that worked in Security/BodyGuard...

My friend actually go interested in it because he watched Enter The Dragon and some of the Girls throw darts in a scene.

its a fun hobby also.
i guess a martial artists versions of Beer and Darts after work hehe


So anyways... just wondering if anyone has experiences or knowlegde or pictures of Chinese throwing darts etc...

or any other country's martial arts for interests sake...

Thanks

[Kristoffer]

here's some sites

http://www.secrets-of-shuriken.com.au/
http://www.quine.home.sonic.net/thrower.html

[Dale Dugas]

http://www.wle.com/products/W046.html

Wing Lam is making em now. They look way heavy and way cool.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[hskwarrior]

there are a few different ones out there. one of my favorites looks like a wish bone, and are available in SF's chinatown.

as for stories, Professor Lau Bun who was a bodyguard/assassin for the hop sing Tong back in the real old days used to carry throwing darts in his shirt pocket, and was said to be extremely accurate. according to one of his female students who witnessed this happen says that Professor Lau Bun once killed a rat in the middle of the night by throwing a dart at it.

also, throwing coins are another chosen weapon for tong assassins. it is definetly a lost art.


frank

[Mighty Scott]

My brother-in-law taught me to throw knives a long time ago (before he was my brother-in-law and was just the strange guy my sister was dating). Knife throwing is lots of fun (especially went you can finally get them to stick consistantly).

[GeneChing]

See our recent May June 2005 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=590) for an article on needle throwing.

[5thBrother]

thanks all

thanks kristoffer for pointing out thise great sites

[ReignOfTerror]

that would be sweet having those or ninja stars. Someone gets out of line and disrespects you or ****es you off you can get far away from them and throw one on them and no one will know it was you.

[Rokto_Obotar]

Hey Mighty Scott I just picked up a couple of martial art i believe 200gram throwing knives. I went out back set up a targe with some logs and began throwing like it says in my cousins book he has. i believe im throwing it almost exactly like it says but the knife just bounces off I cant get the angle down ect... Did you have trouble like this? because im dinging up one of these knives pretty good. If so how long till you got your form down and any tips?


also reign of terror lets not have any southpark episodes hapening ;) when your best friend butters desides to become an evil villan and your poor friend kenny throws a star at his eye and you have to dress him up like a dog because you dont want to get into trouble :D

[Mighty Scott]

Rokto,

Yes, it takes a while to get your form down. And your throwing distance will change during your throwing session. Your knives will get dinged up and even bent. So try to throw the same way every time, pick a throwing style that's comfortable to you.
Throw from the same distance every time. I use 11 feet for the first rotation and 9 feet every rotation after that (when I say feet I mean my feet, I put one foot in front of the other to count the distance). I use the knife sheaths to make my spot on the ground so I always go back to it. Just like any shooting art consistancey is key.
Now the fun part. If your knife is hitting the target with its point down you are too far away for your throw and need to move forward a few inches. If you blade is hitting the target point up your too close and need to move back. Sometimes it helps to have another person watch your knives hit.
It will take a few months to get consistant, then you'll move back and try 2 and three rotations. I actually found the hip movements from my Wing Chun practice help out my knife throwing. So far my record is sinking a knife consistantly from with 4 rotations. Of course I was so far away I had more problems hitting the target then sticking the knives.

[Rokto_Obotar]

Awesome great information what grip should I start out with there 1sided blades, The Modified Hammer or Spline Grip, The Hammer Grip, The Vertical Blade Grip or The Horizontal Blade Grip,

[Mighty Scott]

Wow, I didn't even know the grip had names.

I would suggest just using a grip that your comfortable with.

Although you say you have a one sided blade. If the handle is straight and you hand will slide off of it easily I think you can use what you want. Although the one sided knives I have have a little bulge at the end which almost force you to grip it from the sides and not rap you fingers around like I like to do.

Oh, a couple random thoughts:

The heavier the knife the easier it is to become consistant. I've heard 1 to 1 1/2 oz per inch (30 to 40 grams).

Also I painted the handle my first throwing knife set bright orange. I've spent many an hour looking for those darn things (they can slide right under the grass)

[Rokto_Obotar]

Thats what happened to me!! I missed my target and it slid like 30 feet It took me 20minutes to find it in one of my moms fern bushes!

[neit]

meh, i'd rather just whip the english style darts really hard. as if they were a baseball. in the privacy of my own basement. not at a bar however.

[5thBrother]

I learned a form called the "27 poison daggers." I have some video footage of GM CTS and myself doing part of the form and throwing some knives. It was taught as a Choy Lay Fut form, as the techniques used in throwing the knives are all CLF. But I don't think the form might have been older than two or three generations old. It's a really cool form and it has 5 knives in a shealth (I only can find 2 of the 4 I had made) on each wrist and ankle, and a back harness which holds 7 over your shoulders. I have never taught it yet (along with a ton of other stuff as well) and I'm not sure when I'll get around to teaching it. It is reeeeeeaaallllly cool though!


lama-pai sifu wrote that in another forum

any CLF guys know this form too? the name of it in chinese etc. sounds REALLY COOL! :D

thanks!

[Lohanhero]

i would be very interested in listening to your words, youknowWho, on flying daggers.
end of last year my shifu presented me with somthing similar to the one on winglams website, except a s;ightly different shape. i was shown how to throw and have been practising ever since. it did have a tail to it (tasle or what ever its called) but while it whent through a box it came off, but now i find is still ok to throw without tail.
i have managed to beable to use throwing side ways hand(with palm facing down, and also palm upwards). i was told this is for emergency only. but is good to practise, become very hot in hands after practise.