OT. Is the USA turning towards Jingoism?

[Laughing Cow]

Hi All.

Ever since 9/11 I get the feeling that a lot of Americans have become "Jingoist".

Which in my eyes is a very dangerous development.

How do you guys feel about it?

Are you a Patriot or a Jingoist?

[Stacey]

jingo? I'm a patriot. I know where i come from so im naturally tolerant.

[dezhen2001]

whats a jingoist? im not familiar with that term? :confused:

dawood

[Laughing Cow]

jingoism
noun [U]
DISAPPROVING
the extreme belief that your own country is always best, which is often shown in enthusiastic support for a war against another country
Patriotism can turn into jingoism and intolerance very quickly.

jingoist
noun [C]
DISAPPROVING
He was a confirmed jingoist and would frequently speak about the dangers of Britain forming closer ties with the rest of Europe.

jingoistic
adjective
DISAPPROVING
In wartime, newspapers tend to become jingoistic.
There were great celebrations and plenty of jingoistic flag-waving when the first troops returned from the war.

[Laughing Cow]

One entry found for patriot.
Main Entry: pa·tri·ot
Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&t, -"ät, chiefly British 'pa-trE-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French patriote compatriot, from Late Latin patriota, from Greek patriOtEs, from patria lineage, from patr-, patEr father
Date: 1605
: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests

[Stacey]

Jingoism demonstrates how well Terrorism is working.

[red5angel]

Laughing Cow, are you an american?

I think a good majority of people in all countries could be accused of jingoism. The paranoia that is spreading through the bleeding heart crowd that we are about to go on a Nazi-esque crusade against muslims or anyone else who doesnt agree with our policies is just that, paranoia.
In my neck of the woods things havent really changed much other then economically. People might be a little more leery about taking a plane but I dont hear any anti-muslim mudslinging, not any more then before 9/11, and while a war with Iraq seems inevitable, the American government has been smartin over the bad decision to not puruse it in the early 90's so in my mind, it was inevitable as long as Sadam was still in power.

I thnk I am going to go punch some midgets now......

[Stacey]

Paranoia? Tell me why even though so many other countries are strongly opposed to our menace of a president, they can't do anything about it?

Bleeding heart? I don't care for yin or yang, I just want clarity.

I think we should take out Sadaam, but we will also die for it. If not emediatly, Terrorism will grow dramatically and there will be no way to defend against it. No matter how much we try and pave the rest of the world, plants will still grow through.


Ironically there is an old Assyrian story that tells the same drama we are about to enact. Ironic because there still are Assyrians, living as oppressed Iraqi minorities. In the story the conquering king wakes up in the body of the defeated and suffers a humiliating execution. He then wakes up to realize that he was harming himself. He sees that he was equally vulnerable even from his position as the most powerfull man in civilization.

If your not willing to die to kill Sadaam, then don't vote for those who are. Do you beleive in this violence enough to cut off even one your fingers? the result of any "conflics" will be the loss of many more fingers and limbs. Those who see it will be strapping bombs to their chests and sitting next to you in Church or blowing up the mall of America when your Christmass shopping.

[Ford Prefect]

Definately not. If we were then there would have been huge public support for a war with Iraq, which there wasn't.

[red5angel]

Stacy, not trying to start a flame war or anything but you mention so many other countries opposed to our presdient, what countries would those be and where are you getting your facts?
There are alot of people in this country opposed to our president, it happens everytime we elect a new president, although some are more liked then others.

I dont think the war is necessary, for whatever that means when it comes to war. Containment seemed to work just fine, a small covert war may be more of what we should be looking at. If Saddam wants to fund terrorist, so be it, let us organize and fight him on that level, but I am not talking about blowing up civilians and crashing airplanes into buildings. Start sniping all of his close friends and supporters, generals, etc... blow up his mansions, and his government buildings.

The largest problems we face at the moment are that the current generations of muslim peoples in certain countries hold a hatred for america that they cannot get over and arent allowed to forget. Over time I think things can change for the better but you wont see any dramatic changes. They key is long term gals, that may recquire we take Saddam out of power, and we may pay for it with our own sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, but that is sometimes the way we human beings choose to deal with things.
Either way its going to take a long time to pave the road to peace and some of that is going to be cemented with blood.

[Souljah]

I think 9/11 just increased the 'jingoist' american attitude, it was always there, its very apparent from over here in europe and im sure most other countries notice it, but then many of these other countries have a large hatred against americans (because of this perhaps)

[red5angel]

Souljah, the subject of your post has come up in several other threads since I have been on these forums for a long time. while pointing fingers might make you feel better, it tends to feed ones own "jingoist" attitude. If you have been around a while you have probably seen this happen a few times, usually between europeans and americans on this forum in particular.
I believe that it is always wrong to do this. I know plenty of englishmen who could be accused of jingoism or elitist attitudes. I have met frenchmen who were just as obnoxious as they clame americans are. I dated a swedish woman who claimed americans were out of shape and complained alot, always while complaining.

The point is that while some of us may represent common generalities of our nations, those generalities are generally just percieved. You dont have to be from america to be obnoxious, from france to be a cultural snob, or from england to have bad teeth.

[guohuen]

Jingoism= those that espouse jingoistic rhetoric without any thought or action. Ie. all the dipsticks that had support our troops bumperstickers that never wrote anyone a letter, sent a carepackage, looked in on their families, ect.

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Ever since 9/11 I get the feeling that a lot of Americans have become "Jingoist".
Become more jingoistic since 11 Sept?
LOL!
In the places I live in, the jingoism has always been there.
What's fun is the number of times I've been told "If you don't
like it, move to Canada" when I've critiqued how I thought our
country was acting on certain issues.

[ewallace]

For those of you who don't live in the states, I'll let you in on a little secret. Americans don't skip to work with bright shiny faces repeatedly saying "America is so great, we are so much better than everyone". In fact, the vast majority of the American population is no different from the working class in ANY civilized country. They get up in the morning, put in an honest day's work, come home, eat dinner with their family, spend time with their family or indulging their hobby, then go to sleep and repeat the next day.

It's funny to me that most of the folks I see or hear bashing us for our ignorance relating to the rest of the world are guilty of the same ignorance for developing their opinion of the U.S. based on what they see or hear in the news or magazines.

It's very similar to when I moved to Texas from Illinois. It was right after the Chicago Bulls won their first 3 NBA championships. Many down here hated the Bulls and Michael Jordan. Had they ever done anything to them? No. But their joy of winning and their confidence was constantly being displayed on the news and in the papers. Many people who aren't happy just hate it when they see others who are happy. Misery loves company.

[red5angel]

Marshdrifter is right on, while some lean towards jingoism, others lean away from it, and still others are "sensibly patriotic" What I mean by that is that most americans realize that while america is a wonderful country to live in, we have our problems and we are not perfect.
I personally am patriotic, I love this country and feel fortunate to have been born and raised here, not because I think any other place would have been worse mind you. I also fought for my country, however after all that is said and done, I know we have our issues like anyone elses and I could never be accused of saying our country is the best, because that is all a subjective matter. It's been great for me!

On the whole 9/11 thing, I dont have any anger for muslims, I served next to muslims, and now work next to muslims, jews, and other various people of different beliefs. I myself hold no religious beliefs. My only frustration is towards those who are too fanatical to see the difference between policy and people.

[Ford Prefect]

Ahh yes. At least it's not too arrogant to pass judgement on a population of people an ocean away.

[ewallace]

Agreed Red5. We do not have a perfect government. In fact, we probably don't even have a good government. But I for one cherish the right to even state what I just stated above without having to fear for my life.

[GLW]

Not sure I would say Jingoist...

Definitely unthinking and unreasoning.

Analytical thought in all forms is more and more discouraged. If you ask WHY IS SOMEONE TELLING ME THIS, or WHO STANDS TO GAIN FROM THIS, or any number of probing questions, you are now labeled anit-American...even though the foundation of the US relies on the concept of an informed population.

Reading - what is that....the reading comprehension and writing ability of most Americans has dropped sharply in the past few years.

Put it all together and you end up with the most militarily powerful nation in the world being made up of people who find discussion and thought disagreeable....

But then again, American culture has ALWAYS had a distrust for educated and reasoning people. Back to the Witch hunt days - question the logic of the hunts and you too were labeled a witch...

So it goes...the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[red5angel]

GLW good points. I would say that analytical thought isnt necessarily discouraged but that the way our society has been built around the media, some people are made to believe it isnt necessary. Now instead of trying to figure out why Israel is practically under siege I can go to CNN.com and read an article or two on it.

and dont get me started on reading comprehension just allow me to present one piece of popular american literature, Harry Potter.......

[Souljah]

in reply to red5angel



I have no jingoist beliefs, I learned not to have faith in my country a long time ago, although I'm still young.
I think being bi-racial moved me toward this.
It is a common belief among many europeans that the US are a generally jingoist nation, sorry to offend anyone, and I can tell alot of people will judge me for this but I'm just stating a fact,it makes no difference to me.

No I dont think I saw any euro- US threads.
Of course there are englishmen, frenchmen, dutch who could be accused of jingoism, but this is the nature of countries, and I didnt say it wasnt possible, did i?

Yes Its wrong to generalise a nation based on 50 or so people, but then I cannot comment on why many nations do not like the US (this would be generalising, would it not?), It could be jealousy, It could be arrogance.
To be honest I dont even care.

And if you think does it really matter?
What I was saying is just a fact, not a USA bash, although u may wish to turn it into a row.....

anyway im off to training


soul

[Stone Monkey]

Having spent a fair bit of time overseas (incl. recently the Persian Gulf), I have heard all sorts of conversations about America, jingoism, Nationalism, Bush, etc. (often assuming that because I'm Canadian, I must hate the USA...not true.)

One thing I noticed was that most people around the world have no trouble separating 'Americans' from 'America'... that is to say that while many hold the Government of the US in contempt, they realize it's not the American people per se that are behind US foreign policy.

The resentment comes partly, I think, from the fact that Americans appear to be willfully ignorant of the effects that their country has on the rest of the world, or just don't care. Too much MTV and J-Lo to think about. Common perception of US foreign policy amounts to exploitation and bullying - as US military denies 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' to other sovereign nations while providing such 'rights' to US citizens. (One example is the massive softwood lumber tariff against Canadians by the US government - this was found to be illegal by a trade council [on the very day George W. was making a glowing speech about 'free trade'...]. It was also found to be detrimental to the American lumber/housing market by US consumer groups, but the tariff survived, due in most part to American special interest lobby-groups. Thousands of Canadian jobs were lost. The US response to Canada was essentially "Well what are you gonna do about it...?" -- nothing, of course, except gripe. When other countries see America using such tactics against 'friends', they wonder what hope there is for the US to strike any meaningful deals with it's enemies.)

All in all, however, I think that although many fear and distrust the US military, government, and foreign policy, they still respect the American people and culture. They do make a clear distinction between 'America' and 'Americans' - but get somewhat frustrated that American media blurs such distinctions when reporting on America's 'enemies' (ie: all Iraqis/Muslims/Saudis are terrorists, etc.).

ps: My family is from the UK - some of us live in Canada now and some of us in the USA.

pps: Harry Potter is British:D

[Ford Prefect]

Good post, Stone Monkey. You've hit upon a crucial point: special interest groups. That is where the power (and money) lie. Most Americans really are blissfully ignorant of how the government works, and believe that after seeing that 30 second clip on the local news that they have the whole story.

There was a "clean elections" question on the balet this November. It had to deal with giving public campaign funds to politicians and trying to down play the role of special interests in elections. Did you here a single peep about this question on the news or by advertisement? Not really. There was one ad by special interests group talking about how the public shouldn't throw money away on politicians... Obviously it didn't get passed. Most people I asked had no clue what it was about either. It's kind of sad.

[red5angel]

Stone Monkey, good post, LOL@ the Harry Potter thing, good point! Is it number one on the book charts there as well?!

Souljah, "Well please allow me to retort..." I am not trying to offend, I am just pointing out that your comments are generlising and based on what fact? So what if you have met a few people that think Americans are loud mouthed and patriotic to the point of jingoism (I am also trying to win the "He said Jingo more times then anyone in a sentence" award), the point is it is a generalization and ignorant. You being Bi-racial (and I feel for you here I am too) should know that.
Should I assume that all black people are gangsta thugs because all the suburbanites in my neighborhood say they are? Maybe I should assume that all french people refuse to speak anything but french and are smelly and hairy because some of the frenchmen I met in the gulf were?

You said - "It is a common belief among many europeans that the US are a generally jingoist nation, sorry to offend anyone, and I can tell alot of people will judge me for this but I'm just stating a fact"

Really, has this been scientifically proven? have you done an official study on what countries and in what percentages hate america?

You also said - "but this is the nature of countries, and I didnt say it wasnt possible, did i?"

No you didnt, your example and point was America is this way, but beyond that you didnt present it necesarily as your opinion but as fact and your second post backs this up, as a matter of fact you use the word fact a few times - "I'm just stating a fact" and "I was saying is just a fact".

You also, also said - "Yes Its wrong to generalise a nation based on 50 or so people, but then I cannot comment on why many nations do not like the US (this would be generalising, would it not?), It could be jealousy, It could be arrogance.
To be honest I dont even care."

Yes it would be generalising, but saying many nations do not like th US is generalizing in the first place so why stop there?

My ultimate point is this Souljah, I dont care if you like the US or not, it's really not important, I like the US, I also really enjoyed Mexico, England, Italy, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia. I heard all kinds of things from all sorts of people about all of these places, some good some bad, however, I had enogh commone sense, open mindedness and foresight to understand that while I may hear things and may even experience some things, they dont always hold up as the end all to be all of examples understand? what bothered me about your statement is not that you may have been bashing the US, but that you made a statement I believe to be ignorant of the facts, and yet presented as such. I see it all the time on this forum, I am sure some of the old timers remember a thread or two where there was some beating of chest and your country sucks type comments, etc... never really got involved, but it bugs me when I see ignorance like this because thats why we have things like Nazi Death Camps, and Wars in the middle-east or planes slamming into buildings. Because all of those guys on those plnaes already had formed opinions on what america was about and had so closed thier minds to the idea that America is a land of individuals just as is their own country and that not all of us are reesponsible fo rthe things that go on around us, or the people you meet in your own country.

[Kristoffer]

GOT JIZZ ? :cool:

[Kristoffer]

oh god Im tired... :(

[red5angel]

You all right Kristoffer?

[Souljah]

scientifically proven? lol, ok

There are many tv-net polls held over here that ask these type of questions. About bush and his 'regime' (sorry, i know this sounds extreme) and nationalism.....
There have been a string lately. In which 50,000 or so people took part.
I know this is not solid evidence, but then Im not saying everyone, just some, or many..

sorry , gonna go read the second half of your post jus thought i'd reply to the first part

[red5angel]

Souljah, fair enough, they have them here too, and he isnt exaclty gaining popularity in the US, but those are polls on Bush's popularity or the govenrments popularity, not Americans in general.

Before this goes on Souljah, understand I am not trying to start a flame war or **** you off. You made a statement I think is unfair, I come from a mixed blood family and have delat with too much of that sort of thing and I dont lik eit when I see it. I may not change your mind, but I definitely feel better about getting off my chest.

[Souljah]

I cannot give any solid proof, but this does not make me wrong.....nor does it make you right.....its inconclusive

there was actually a question "are americans snobs" or something along those lines, but I dont think you can count the results of that one as it was probably people being unnecessarily harsh.....

I dont think I made an unfair comment, I made that comment based on what I read and see, over here, in srilanka (where my dads from) and in the middle east (where I go sometimes....its a long story)
and though there is a much higher hatred over there towards the US than over here, I still notice it here...not exactly hatred but not kind words.

But when you think about how they take surveys.....they cant get a survey done like a census, they have to generalise.
50,000 people would have to represent the other 50 million.
Just the probability of it, again not saying im right or wrong, just my belief..
Im sorry if you think I'm still being unfair, but I've tried to justify myself enough, and if you still think It's a ignorant and egotistical view then im sorry I cant argue it any further as its past my bedtime, jks...
You have your view and I have mine m8
after all, what would the world be like if people didnt disagree.....

[Brad]

Good post, Stone Monkey. You've hit upon a crucial point: special interest groups. That is where the power (and money) lie. Most Americans really are blissfully ignorant of how the government works, and believe that after seeing that 30 second clip on the local news that they have the whole story.
Yup, that's the one biggest problem with America. Everything's about special interest groups with money. It's like here in Ohio, there's legeslation going around that would allow people to carry concealed weapons(handguns specifically) in public. They haven't even bothered to poll the public about what we think of the idea. Or at least I haven't seen or heard anything about poll results in the media. It's basically the NRA's idea all the way. Honestly, I'm really sick of the way our American political system works, and I know there's a lot more people here that feel the same way. Unfortunately, a lot of our voices will never be heard because we're just poor and middle class people.


As for scientifically proven about people who hate America, there was a poll just published in the newspaper on the international comunities opinion of America. It was pretty interesting and complex. A couple issues I remember were in 19 of 27 countires populations the overall opinion of America had decreased in the last 2 years. They also polled populations of mostly Islamic countries on whether they thought suicide bombings were a justified tactic and it veried very drastically depending on the country. For example in Turkey only 13% of Muslims approved, while in Syria 75% approved. I think they did find the majority of people were overall disaproving of American foriegn policy with the exception being Britain where it was basically 50-50.

Personally I think there's a lot of oversimplification on American opinions about war with Iraq and other issues(and LOTS of unfair stereotyping). For example I don't like Sadam. I would be very happy if he was removed from power and replaced with a democratic freedom loving government. But I'm not nescesarily sure now is the right time to be going after him, or if we're the right people to do it. Now depending on how that question was ask and who did the asking that question could apear as a "yes" for a war against Iraq if they only paid attention to the first part. It all kind of reminds me of this SNL sketch where an interviewer kept trying to get John McCain to say he was going to challenge Bush for the presedency ;-)

Also if, lets say, a European says to an American,"Pres. Bush is an evil terrorist as bad as Osama Bin Laden! He deserves to die!!!" your going to get a vastly different response than if he said,"This is what I dislike about American foreign policy" and gives actual reasons. :D Really, I don't like a lot of Pres. Bush does but when I hear people calling my Pres. an evil terrorist something inside just clicks, and I find myself turrning into "arogant close minded overly patriotic" man :D

Hope you guys can sort through my ramblings because I'm sure I made at least one or two good point in there somewhere :P

P.S. I love the Harry Potter books ;-)

[ZIM]

So, what if they just said Shrub is an evil businessman terrorist? If you want to talk about special interest groups being a problem, then consider that Cheney (the real boss "we" voted for) basically RAN United Oil of California [UNOCAL] with the express job of building Gov't contracts AND building a pipe line through Afganistan and Pakistan...the oil coming in this case from [love this!] slant drilling into Iran [you remember Kuwait, right?]. Kah-razy!

But nonetheless true. The Taliban were blocking the deal. When we invaded [erm...invaded al qaeda] the deal for the pipe was the first thing to go through.

So, knowing also that poindexter, the bushes, cheney, rumsfeld, etc. are all into oil, this isn't much other than an opportunity to increase the American Empire of $$$, but just not to call it that, becuz thats not too PC. The reason the ppl's of the world hate us so is not becuz they can't see our POV, but becuz of our off-hand "do it becuz we say so" attitude.

Ah whatever. I don't want to be coming off as if saying "thats the whole story". it's not, very clearly. There's 9/11, and the very real threat of weapons being developed, etc. It's a world problem, not just a US problem- we are not certain where the missles might point when built, after all. I just am not comfortable seeing a presidential cabinet lining their pockets from the lives of our armed services.

[Brad]

Oh well, I give up :rolleyes: Instead of talking to me like I'm an idiot, can some of you tell me where the heck you guy get all your information? Any reliable independent news sources for us Americans to look at since our own media lies to us constantly? I'm a normal guy in Ohio who has to rely on the national news, and newspapers for most of my info, and ocasional bits I find online. And no I'm not being sarcastic. I'm tired of being uneduacted! I had no clue about that whole Afganistan pipeline thing. I know Bush, Cheney and all their buddies are oil dudes but I never made the connection with Afganistan because... well... it's not exactly oil rich like Iraq or Kuat. I heard a number of people saying the Afganistan invasion is all about oil, but no one ever explains themselves.

Either way, I'm still glad the taliban is out of power in that country. Just not happy about the idea of someone using troops for those kind of monetary reasons like you said. :mad:

[Brad]

BTW ZIM that's the first intelligent argument I've heard towards Bush or his administration being considered terrorists yet.

[Brad]

Wow, I did a google search and found a UK news organization and an article I found seems to be a good example of telling some things I'll probably never hear on our American news:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=358926
What do y'all think? Anyone know anyhting about this site? Also this line:
The American officer also had a low opinion of the Western journalists he met at Bagram. "They just hung around our base all day. Whenever we had some special operation, we'd offer the journalists some facility to go on patrol with our special forces and off they'd go – you know, 'we're on patrol with the special forces' – and they wouldn't realise we were stringing them along to get them out of the way."

Kind of makes me think less that our journalists are lying to us, and more that they're just flat out incompetent, lol.

[Serpent]

Well done, Brad, you're on the path to a more informed view already. I always check numerous sources for news items before I form an opinion. You know, apart from the pipeline, Afghanistan also has enormous untapped natural gas reserves. Food for thought.

The Independent is a good news source on the whole.

[red5angel]

Brad, excellent post at the top there, however, unless you are roughly 13-15 years of age, I will have to beat you to the level of a13-15 year old for the Harry Potter thing... :D

Serpent is right however, everyone should take a look at many sources before forming a solid opinion on anything, and that was sort of my point with Souljah. This thread and the letter from Osama thread is full of post with assumptions, and I mostly blame the media for that. americans are too quick to take their 5 minute bytes and hold them as golden, but I imagine this happens in other parts of the worl d as well, right Souljah ;)

however, as for that article I just have one word to say.....DUH!!!!! Even in the US media anyone paying attention would realize that while we managed to unseat the taliban from power in Afghanistan, we didnt catch anyone important, and we havent done any real damage other then financially to Al Quaeda. But like the Gulf War, people are willing to listen to BS as long as it is good BS. If we did such a good job with our Air War in the Gulf, why are we looking at going to war again with Saddam?

[Budokan]

It's easy for any politician to mislead the population when said population is mostly sheeple.

[red5angel]

Budokan, most populations are "mostly" sheep. Psychologically human beings tend to want to belong, and they also tend to take the easy road. Its easier to believe everything is good, and that your leaders are doing whats in your best interest.
It's the same reason you get oppressive regimes that can't be overthrown, very few people actually have what it takes to take action.

[FatherDog]

Brad:

http://www.prwatch.org/spin/

http://www.fair.org

http://wire.ap.org/APnews/

Good places to start.

[ZIM]

Certainly didn't want to come across as patronizing. I'll echo what was said: Good work! I prefer it when ppl disbelieve me and look things up for themselves, which is what you did. (I think I got a couple details off, but hey WTF?) The Caspian sea is what I totally forgot about- Khazahkstan reneged on their deals too. See, its partly about getting a friendly oil port for the US.

Different area that cheney was embarassed in was myanmar [sp?] AKA Burma. I'm wondering if anything will happen there, maybe next term. ;) I'm telling you, he's the one thats running things from some cave in Wash. DC- a case for deniability in conflict in interest for Bush.

For the US attitudes nowdays and recentlylook here (http://www.konscious.com/films/special_feature/911/index.html) for a few movies.

[Souljah]

Serpent is right however, everyone should take a look at many sources before forming a solid opinion on anything, and that was sort of my point with Souljah. This thread and the letter from Osama thread is full of post with assumptions, and I mostly blame the media for that. americans are too quick to take their 5 minute bytes and hold them as golden, but I imagine this happens in other parts of the worl d as well, right Souljah

lol, i dont get it, I present my arguements as best I can with as much info as is possible, and still you try to patronize me?
If anything red its you who is making assumptions, you are assuming that I made an unfair assuption without any research....when you did not fully know to what extent I could back up the CLAIMS, not assumptions.
Why would I make a statement I didnt believe I could back up?
Well I've given you the evidence you asked for, brad had some for this in his post too, unfair? I dont think so..... you are the one that ruled me out.
You complain about people making rash statements on this forum, well yes while that is true, I have justified the statement I made clearly, you can continue to try and pick at my words and reform them if you wish.....but I have made my point plain and simple

soul

[Stone Monkey]

Call me crazy but it seems to me that you guys are arguing different points:

Souljah seems to be saying that right or wrong, the international perception of 'America as jingoistic' is widespread, while Red5angel seems to be claiming that the perception itself may be unfounded...

I think you're both right. :cool:

[red5angel]

Souljah, I thought you might take it that way. It wasn't however meant to be patronizing. the point is that when I saw your first post My point in drawing you into conversation was in part to say that you have to make sure you have enough references from different sides of the "coin" before you can make an informed decision.While I dont agree with what you said or the way you presented it, I feel no ill will towards you. If anything, one thing I have learned growing up in the US is that everyone is entitled to their opinions.
So, trust me when I say I am not picking on you, I understand your point, you explained it well, and that we agree or disagree isnt all that important when it comes around to it. You seem like an intelligent person, I am sorry you feel that way about Americans but there is nothing I can do about that.

Stone monkey I agree with you but the issue, atleast between what Souljah and I were talking about wasnt that Souljah presented it as a general 'fact' -

Souljah - "I think 9/11 just increased the 'jingoist' american attitude, it was always there, its very apparent from over here in europe and im sure most other countries notice it, but then many of these other countries have a large hatred against americans (because of this perhaps)"

- the issue personally was that he expressed it as his opinion and I dont agree with it.

[Stone Monkey]

Point taken :)

[Souljah]

yes this was my opinion, I have no probs with any disagreement, I just dont appreciate my words making me look like someone im not.
I do have an open mind when it comes to issues like this, I have no problems with the US myself personally red, I dont feel I know enough to form an opinion myself (yet). It was just an opinion I felt I wanted to add to this mix in this thread.
Though there is NO fact in any of this, I apologise for making this mistake.

BTW u gotta love felix :cool: :cool:

sincerely

uncle sam

[red5angel]

Souljah, I figured you were smarter then you were sounding (again no offense meant) thats why I pursued it. I dont usually waste my time in discussion unless I get a feeling something was said that isnt clear, on my part or anothers.
apology expected and I apologise for making it look like I was picking on you. I just didnt get the feeling you really that you were, if you excuse me for saying this, as ignorant as your post sounded. I have seen other posts of yours and was frankly a little shocked was all.
sniff sniff, can someone hand me a tissue? I need a hug :)

[@PLUGO]

I hate comming into theds this far along...:mad:

An interesting point I came accross the other day...
THE NAACP posted some stats indicating that "racial violence" has nearly trippled since 9/11/01

I've personally observed a rise of popularity in "military" toys. Sure there's always been GI Joe.... but has anyone heard of the Forward (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/war_toys021203.html) Command Post? (http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1123-01.htm)

Does that mean the average american is more "jingoistic" than they were pre-9/11? I'm not sure...

There dose seem to be a significant rise in such an attitude as reported by much of the media...

Take the regular appearances of Generals etc. on CNN & MSNBC... is it really a balanced debate when there's an equal lack of "pacifist proponents" (or whatever's a good term) allowed air-time.

[ZIM]

Take the regular appearances of Generals etc. on CNN & MSNBC... is it really a balanced debate when there's an equal lack of "pacifist proponents" (or whatever's a good term) allowed air-time.

"They" [meaning Clinton] did away with the Fairness Doctrine some time ago, during his first term. There's no longer any obligation to present 'both sides' of any argument, either in media or schools, etc. So what passes for debate is right vs. ****her right. :o

[GLW]

The idea of equla time disappeared way before Clinton.

In this area, party affiliation and who is in the white house don't matter. neither group wants free debate on much of anything and the media works very well to frame any discussion or debate within such narrow lines that the difference between the positions is more like "Do you want your groceries in paper or plastic"

An interesting watch is the documentary "The myth of the liberal media" It goes through a lot of things and points out things like a TRULY liberal media would cover labor issues. Look at the TV news, newspapers, magazines...they have a BUSINESS section, but no LABOR section.

During the Viet Nam war, we had reporters in the field with film of the war. Even so, the real stuff behind the war was not shown...and is only now coming out. Desert Storm - the reporters were spoon fed the story the military wanted them to get. There was no digging into the who's and why's. They learned well that to fight a war, first you have to stop information that can cause questions. They have learned it well. The questions about who pays for things, who stnads to profit, and what will the US get out of a war are not being asked...

One item...the US has wanted a permanent military base in the Middle East ever since the Shah of Iran fell. The Saudis wouldn't let us get one...so we can go after Iraq....Nah..that couldn't have anything to do with it all could it.

[eulerfan]

Brad,

I have a suggestion for you. Other countries have journalism with agendas, too. The most objective, impartial news you will find will be in financial newspapers. People don't read them to form political opinion or make voting decisions or even to find dinner conversation. They read them to make investment decisions. So those papers tend to be 'just the facts, ma'am.'

[tnwingtsun]

jingoism (jĭng'gôĭzəm) , advocacy of a policy of aggressive nationalism. The term was first used in connection with certain British politicians who sought to bring England into the Russo-Turkish War (1877–78) on the side of the Turks. It apparently derived from a popular song of the period: “We don't want to fight, but, by jingo, if we do ... .”

[joedoe]

It is funny because I have a bit of a schizo view of the US.

I think the people can be fantastic. Very friendly and an amazing spirit. However I also agree that Americans can be very ignorant (as can many nationalities).

I have an issue with the way US foreign policy is conducted, however I can also see why it is done that way. I can also accept the huge contribution the US has made and continues to make to upholding what it feels is right (it's just that the rest of the world does not always agree on what is right :)).

Anyway, on the whole I like Americans.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe
Anyway, on the whole I like Americans.

Freak!

[eulerfan]

Serpent,

Play your little denial game all you want but the rest of us actually remember Yahoo Seriously.:D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by eulerfan
Serpent,

Play your little denial game all you want but the rest of us actually remember Yahoo Seriously.:D

What is it with American's and Yahoo Serious!? He was a real one hit wonder, wasn't he?

Anyway, we've got Steve Irwin now. If you want to mock anything Australian, you need no more ammo than that!

[eulerfan]

Dum de dum dum dum.........Kyle Minogue?

[dezhen2001]

paul hogan from crocodile dundee :D:D:D

dawood

[Laughing Cow]

Seve Irwin = The Crocodile Hunter.
;) :p ;)

[dezhen2001]

no comparison! :eek:

dawood

[eulerfan]

If Serpent starts naming American tards in the entertainment industry, we'll be here all night.

[joedoe]

Make fun of Steve Irwin all you want, but the man has a huge pair on him.

[dezhen2001]

im sure its nothing compared to ur sword! :eek:
------> cxxx[]:::::::::::>

dawood

[joedoe]

I agree, my sword is impressive. :D However Steve Irwin has a pair of cojones that could cause an total solar eclipse.

[dezhen2001]

cant think of a comeback to that :(

dawood

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Serpent


Freak!

Don't think any less of me for that Serp, I have to say it. My GF is a Yank. :( :D.

Seriously though, Yanks are no different to anyone else (except for the annoying accent :D) - there are good ones and bad ones.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by eulerfan
If Serpent starts naming American tards in the entertainment industry, we'll be here all night.

Why just the entertainment industry?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe


Don't think any less of me for that Serp, I have to say it. My GF is a Yank. :( :D.


It's ok, Joe. I couldn't possibly think any less of you than I already do.

[dezhen2001]

lol u crack me up!

dawood

[Serpent]

WATP.

;)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Serpent


It's ok, Joe. I couldn't possibly think any less of you than I already do.

That hurts. You told me you loved me :(

I'm going away to cry now. :(

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe


That hurts. You told me you loved me :(

I'm going away to cry now. :(

Don't cry. It's like I told Xebsball, sometimes you gotta use a little tough love.

Go on over to the got qi thread and, when eulerfan's found her lolly, I'll make you feel better.