Stance Training [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Oso

12-10-2002, 11:48 AM

yep, sucks to get old.

I can attribute my hip to a specific run I did where I got a wild
hair and ran 7.5 miles in very hilly terrain ( western NC )
there was a downhill section of about 1.5 miles and that night
the bursa was visibly swollen and it hasn't been the same since.

that exercise helps and I only do my cardio on a stair climber
now...no impact and I get to run uphill all the time :)

ok, so I presented this to my students last night at class...

we use a sash system (please no debate on this), 10 steps to
black and you have to test for the white sash after 4-6 months
of the basics.

White> yellow> orange> purple> blue> green> brown1
brown2> brown3> black

Here's what I decided for the stance training.

White sash Test

Horse --- 30 seconds, near horizontal thigh

Hill climbing --- 15 seconds, each side near horizontal thigh

Cross --- 15 seconds , each side, low knee 1'' off ground

Crane --- 15 seconds each leg, standing leg as low as possible

Cat --- 15 seconds, each leg, both legs as low as possible

No breaks, transitoin from one stance to the other

At each new level, through Brown1, there is an increse of
10 seconds for Horse and 5 seconds for each other stance.
Between Brown1 and Black the step increases to 30 seconds
for the horse and 15 seconds for the others.

So, for the black sash test they must be in the horse for 4 minutes
and 1 1/2 minutes for each other for a total of 16 minutes in all.

So...Not Enough? Too Much? ( I don't think so myself )

It would be nice for every student who walked through the door
to be a hardcore student. They aren't. For most it starts as a
curiosity and at most will be a hobby they might continue for a
little while. I don't see the point in scaring away someone who
is genuinely curious but may not have the immediate skills.

For the student who wants more...there is more.

now, of to continue the quest of teaching commercially without
sacrificing quality.......................

:D

matt

Oso

12-10-2002, 12:12 PM

RTB,

seeing as how you are a wt practitioner I have a question about
mobility in the WT style.

I've only touched hands once with a WT guy and watched about
an hour's practice of some guys in Richmond VA when I was up
helping a friend check out schools for his son.

The guy I touched with in the GL Tourny a couple of years back
could not seem to deal with flanking. I tried to play with him
on the centerline just to see what was up and he popped the
crap out of me :D

so, I said the heck with that and flanked him and hit him rather
easily. And since this worked once I did it again, several
times, but I'm not trying to hype that. Just the observation
that after the same entering technique was used on him a
couple of times in a row he stll didn't adjust to it. He
attempted to bridge the gap between us with the same
exact movement.

The class I saw in Richmond seemed to illustrate this aspect as
well. I did not see the instructor move at all just the students.

So, I guess my question is whether there are principles to deal
with flanking in WT.

hmm, I guess this is the wrong forum for this but since we're here.

oh, the school in Richmond was a VT school and the instructor
made a big point about that.

thanks,

Matt

Hau Tien

12-10-2002, 12:32 PM

Oso:

My Sifu also incorporates stance training into our tests. He demands a little more, however.

We do use a belt system, but there are only 3. Yellow, Green, Black. There are two levels in between yellow and green, and two between green and black. We represent those with stars on the sash.

Anyway, after learning the basics, you must test for your yellow sash. You are required to hold 3 stances (ding - AKA cat stance, horse stance, and bow and arrow stance) for 3 minutes each, for a total of nine minutes of stance work.

The next test requires all three stances for five minutes each, for a total of 15 minutes. The next one goes to seven minutes, for a total of 21 minutes of stances. If you do well enough on your next test, he may allow you to simply hold a ten minute horse stance, increasing the time as you proceed further to black. The test for black is a 5 hour ordeal, with 30 minutes of that reserved for horse stance alone.

Right now I'm nearing the time when I'll be going for the ten minute horse. That should actually be a little easier than 21 minutes including the other two stances. I'm looking forward to this next test a little more than my last :)

Oso

12-10-2002, 12:49 PM

HT

Thanks, that's a good comparison. Kinda what I was looking for
when I posed the question.

I may change the ratio at the upper end later on. I think the
depth of stance is part of the question as well as the rest time
between each set. I see the juice heads at my gym stack a
bunch of weight on the bars but rest 5 minutes between. I'm
not sure if that is the way it should be done.

How deep are you guys? How long do you rest between the
different stances?

I saw a test once where a big deal was made about
the 10 minutes spent in all eight stances but they were not held
at any sort of demanding level. I stopped watching the test.

thanks for your input,

Matt

fa_jing

12-10-2002, 12:57 PM

All wingchun systems emphasize flanking, both for attack and defense. Your sparring partner probably just wasn't with the program.

Oso

12-10-2002, 01:06 PM

fa_jing

didn't seem like it.

and it certainly doesn't seem like a martial art could be
viable without paying attention to flanking...I just was curious
and figured I just hadn't seen it in the people I've watched.

thanks,

Matt

rubthebuddha

12-10-2002, 02:33 PM

oso,

fa_jing's right. wing chun -- all families -- work with flanking. anyone who doesn't isn't listening to their sifu.

honestly, unless i have a need to follow the nose (say, if someone's throwing a big right hook, i'll step to my forward right and stay nose-to-nose with them, because stepping to the left will get me hit and i may be too late to just step forward), and someone's attacking me, i love to flank. i do it more if someone is of larger size and comes at me strongly, i'll just turn, let them go by me a little and attack them from the side. them bull, me matador.

a problem with flanking can arise when wc folks (of any fam) don't keep their torso square to their opponent. a great deal of the advantages of wc are lost when not square and it's pretty easy to pick apart someone who doesn't stay square unless they know a lot more than me :D

i haven't learned all the wt forms or seen anywhere near all the applications, but from what i have seen, attacked or defending someone while not being square requires a reason -- that is, anytime i'm not attacking or defending and i'm not square, i do it intentionally to gain something.

Oso

12-10-2002, 02:52 PM

RTB,

cool, thanks. As I said, just curious having minimal contact with
the art.

Matt

18elders

12-10-2002, 03:57 PM

i understand the importance of stance training but here is a true story for some thought.

Mantis practitioners should know who Lee Kwan Shan was(not the wah lum guy). His disciple Li hung jie is my grandmasters teacher.
He told him a story of a tai chi guy he would always see in the park holding his stances all day long. Master Li is a plum flower mantis practitioner, curious about his ability he challenged the man to a contest to see who could uproot the other from their stance.
After a long period of time neither man could uproot the other, master li said he understood why the man spent so much time on his stances but said he also needed to develop his hand techniques. With that master li hit the man 5 times and knocked him down.

Oso

12-10-2002, 04:20 PM

Last night we did three star conditioning drill while in each stance.

Matt

rubthebuddha

12-10-2002, 05:34 PM

oso,

welcome. flanking's a good skill for every art to have. certain arts like tkd are limited in how much they can take advantage of flanking, but you'll find that in the more combat-oriented and less sport-oriented arts, flanking will be a substantial part of how you work. even bjj has it ...

"hm, i got your side, why don't i just take your back as well and have my way with you?"*

*this can mean any number of things, as most bjj folks i know really can have their way with people if they can take the back.

Oso

12-10-2002, 07:13 PM

sorry, had to go there :D ;)

I just live too dang far away from everyone to play often enough.

RTB, are you Washington state or DC?

Matt

TkdWarrior

12-10-2002, 07:43 PM

Enlighten me ...
Wat's flanking?
-TkdWarrior-

Oso

12-10-2002, 07:57 PM

something not done often enough by most people
even if we say we practice flanking as a tactic.

:)

matt

Royal Dragon

12-10-2002, 08:52 PM

I'm not sure what's appropreate for a Back sash rank as I have a varied history, and most of the small groups I have been with over the years don't have ranks, BUT I used to perform a Shaolin set called Wu Bu Chuan. It consists of 22 stances, two of which are the open and closeing of the set and are not held leaving 20 postures to hold. Since it is really 11 X both sides, it's not as bad as it sounds. Several are repeated twice.

Basically, I used to hold each stance for 3 minutes and seamlessly transitioned into the next. All stances were held deep and the progression was continued until I could hold it comfortably

. Horse was the thighs level "Iron Chair" with the punch held to the side like draw the bow in the 8 section Brocaed set.

The set has one posture that is done slighlty sunk on one leg wile holding the other in a front snap kick (Hands in Draw the Bow), and there are sevral other one legged standing stances. the rest are very low, and difficult to do.

Basically I think that individually, you should be able to hold them for 10 minutes each, and 3 minutes each if done consecutively in the form. I used to do this 2-3 times a week without fail up until the year before my health problems started.

I figure if I "Had" to assign myself a rank, I would make this my Black sash standard as it is well above the performance of most Black sash's in my area (With few notable exceptions). The schools that generally hold these types of standards really don't have ranking systems that I can see, so who knows. I guess it's up to each individual school owner.

If you require a 10 minute Horse stance, I doubt you will ever see more than a small few that make it to the Black sash level though.

For me, I was not comfortable teaching unless I could maintain that standard, even though I was just teaching kids at the time.

omarthefish

12-10-2002, 10:32 PM

Funny counting all those different stances. 6-8 basic ones? In Hung-gar, I only count 4, and then there's the pigeon toed stance which I don't call basic because it's not intoduced untill you start sup yin.

1. horse
2. bow/mnt. climbing
3. cat
4. twist

I'm not a huge fan of pure stance training. I've taken it up again lately but mainly just when I'm to lazy to get my arse out to the gym and figure it's better than just sitting on the sofa watching t.v.

My reccomendation is holding each of the basic four for a set number of breath cycles. Ten, works pretty well. Then chang your stance without standing up. As you get better, your breathing will slow down and the time will increase. Cycle through all four stances twice (one time on each side ) and then stand up and shake your legs out. Rinse, repeat.

Pure stance training is mostly for when you don't know a lot of forms. If you have learned a few forms, your better off either performing them real slow or better yet, perform one movement and then hold it for 'x' number of breath cycles like the exercise above. You can stretch a 3 minute form out into 10 or 15 minutes this way.

The other thing is that every time I get to a new time record, I usually find I can adjust the stance in some way that takes me back to square one. The small adjustments go on for ever. Knees bent so toes are just barely out of sight (my take on this one). Tail bone tucked in. Knees pressed out. knees pressing back. lumbars pressing back-stetching down. Head lifted. Chin tucked. chest hollowed. I haven't even gotten started on the pelvic girdle yet . . .

Instead of going for time records, I like to go for more and more subtle refinements of the form. If it's done properly, 3 minutes can be murder, although I still dream that some day I'll hold a low horse for 40 minutes, it seem like a pipe dream today.

Oso

12-11-2002, 06:58 AM

Hiya RD,

10 minutes at each stance for black sash level is a good ideal.

Not necessarily for a test where you would have, in addition to
the stance work, 20 forms done 3 times each, 30 or so kicks
20 or more times each, demonstration of at least 5 techniques
from each form done multiple times culminating in a couple at
near full speed and contact and all the other stuff there should
be in a test. Not to mention, in my school at least, an hour or
so of sparring at the very end. Our black sash tests are around
6 hours. Mine was 7 1/2.

So, that is the framework that I'm trying to fit some sort of
requirement for stance training. If I had them do 10 minutes
each then there would be 90 minutes of just stance work.

Now, you could do the stance test the day before and then
do everything else the next day. That's an idea !!!!

But, hell, I've got 7 students and I don't want to run any of them
off before they even really get started good.

Is it better to help create good martial artists out of the top
percentage of people who are physically fit or is it better to try
and help the average person achieve something they never
thought they would be able to do :confused:

omarthefish

I've actually just got 5 listed. Your four plus crane.
I think I've seen 8 out there on some NPM websites.

I like the breath cycles idea. I was taught to use breath cycles
for holding chi kung postures and there is no reason not to do
it w/ stance training.

Good detail on refining the stance work. I think it goes without
saying that a beginners horse or twist stance would look entirely
different from and advanced students due to the continuous
refinement of posture.

thanks,

Matt

Royal Dragon

12-11-2002, 07:04 PM

"Is it better to help create good martial artists out of the top
percentage of people who are physically fit or is it better to try
and help the average person achieve something they never
thought they would be able to do "

Reply]
Hmmmmm, I would try to do both. have a secial program for the gifted, but cater your main program for the common man. That is where your bread and butter is. Without them, your gifted students won't have a place to train anyway, unless they are willing to train in parks, garages and basements like I have.

rubthebuddha

12-11-2002, 11:03 PM

oso,

washington state, about 25 miles from the canadian border and right on puget sound.

i was out your way recently. my brother lived in greenville, nc, and he got married in beaufort (also the nc version, not sc) back in september. he and his wife now live in maryland.

Hau Tien

12-11-2002, 11:33 PM

Oso,

Sorry for not replying sooner... been in the middle of finals week at college.

Anyway, we are made to hold our stances fairly deep for those time periods I gave in my last post. Sifu stands and watches us. We generally go over the theory of the style (7* PM) while I'm doing my stances. It's a welcome distraction. Although, every once in a while Sifu demands a deeper stance. And the last minute or two he insists you sit down even deeper. I just about fell over on my first test.

He gives you enough time to walk the cramp out of your leg (After sitting in a cat stance for 7 minutes, your back leg is on fire), and then you do the next stance.

Now it's not too bad for me, but I've been training my legs with both stances and weights (well... not in this last week... stupid tests). The extra workout has helped a whole lot.

I think that if you've got some students who are good, and have potential, you should give them the requirements you want to have in place. If they've really got potential, they'll work towards it.

Of course, if it is your full time occupation (and source of income), you may want to make concessions when you're first getting started, then change into a more regimented routine after you have a stable student base.

Most of all, be honest with your students. Tell them about what you had to go through in your training. If that's what you're having them do, I can't see them complaining (other than about their aching legs ;) )

Just my opinion :)

Royal Dragon

12-12-2002, 05:52 AM

"Tell them about what you had to go through in your training. If that's what you're having them do, I can't see them complaining (other than about their aching legs )"

Reply]
See, the problem with that, is 80-90% of your student base are not truly dedicated, and if you make it too hard for them they will quit. The key is finding a balance that challenges them, but keeps them from feeling "Punished" through the really hard stuff we like because ther is ovbiously something wrong with us ;)

That is why I sugjested offering a seperate course for the really dedicated. Make them come to every class, and make them really work the system. It will act as a positive example to the rest of the students who may aspire to be like them in time and just need to work up to it emotionally.

I also sugjest giving those types a break on tuition as the hard core students are our future and should be supported, especially considering they are not all that common. The regular students are our present, and support the club right here and now so the hard core types have a place to train.

Water Dragon

12-12-2002, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
See, the problem with that, is 80-90% of your student base are not truly dedicated, and if you make it too hard for them they will quit.

This type of thinking is the scourge of CMA

Oso

12-12-2002, 08:30 AM

RTB

too bad. I don't live near anyone :( This stupid town of
76,000 people has 26 schools listed in the yellow pages and they
are mostly Mcdojo type places and everyone is so concerned with
promoting image that they don't like to play. The only guy of
any comparable ability (and, actually he's better) has gone all
internal on me and doesn't want to spar anymore.

hmm, that sounded a bit arrogent. How about "The only guy
of comparable ability who will touch hands..."

I look at it this way, 'sifu' doesn't actually mean that you are
the best fighter. I'll touch hands with anyone and if a 5 year
practitioner can pop me then good for them.

I think there should be a 'sifu' level sparring division but I don't
think many would go for it. Funny that, you see the "master"
and "GrandMaster" forms divisions but no sparring. Maybe
there is something there I don't know yet.

Sounds like you live in a very beautiful place though.

HT

Thanks for the input. I feel pretty good about what I have
chosen as the requirements. They may not be all that long
in and of themselves but within in the context of the type of test
I usually give they will certainly remember each test.

Right now the school is just part time...no money to kick into it for
start up. I'd like to be able to try it full time in 2-3 years and will
hopefully have at least a couple of the folks with me now as
senior students to help with instructing kids and the newbies.

I think it is nearly impossible not to regale your students with
war stories of the incredible training you put in as a student.

:cool: :D

RD

I don't think I want to 'promote' a separate class or program
for anyone. I tend to offer a lot of free, outside of class training
and barter type stuff (one guy is sewing all the sashes, I have a
woman who will be doing all the graphic design, a transfer from
my sifu's school who get's time for helping to teach) and I look
for the one's who jump at the chance to train. Eventually these
folks will be offered a little more if they really want it.

thanks,

Matt

Oso

12-12-2002, 08:47 AM

Water Dragon

I don't know exactly what RD meant by his statement but
I think that there are different levels of dedication and
acknowledging that not everyone is in it as a lifestyle is
important.

You have people that run a couple miles a couple days a week
and will do that the rest of there life.

Then you have the terminally insane folks that run a marathon
or two a week and then there are the ultra-marathoners that
are just plain sick.

The person that runs 2 miles, 3 days a week is a lot better off
then the person who isn't running at all.

as a teacher I try to lead each student towards something more
then they maybe thought they wanted. But recognizing when
they are comfortable and committed to a particular level of
training and not pushing them to the point that they quit
altogether is important.

respectfully,

Matt

[Censored]

12-12-2002, 03:42 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Royal Dragon
See, the problem with that, is 80-90% of your student base are not truly dedicated, and if you make it too hard for them they will quit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This type of thinking is the scourge of CMA

Bad teachers are the scourge of CMA. You know, the ones who can't attract or retain dedicated students, and who can't build the dedication of the lazy ones. And then deny responsibility for the situation.

Royal Dragon

12-12-2002, 05:55 PM

"This type of thinking is the scourge of CMA"

Reply]
Not really. One , it's true. Most students are not in it to become seriously skilled (Although the want to "Think" they are). Some teachers are not good at teaching those tyhat are not fully dedicated. Both MJ and Monkey Slap have mentioned they felt it would be difficult for them to teach the main stream due to the fact that they are too hard core and would literlly "Scare" the main stream guys away. They need guys like us as students.

"I" on the otherhand am really good at teaching the main stream, and infact I have quite a bit of experiance in it. When you are running a school, you will have 80-90% of your students that are just there recreationally, and are only partially serious. You have to know "How" to teach those types, or you will loose them. It is actually much harder to teach the Main stream because you always have to be carful of thier emotional limits so you don't exceed them. Student retention is a Bi.tch.

The hard core student is easy to teach, you can drill them on thier basics till they die, give them one littel thing at a time, ignor them for hours wile they drill on thier own in the corner and they will keep rising from the grave begging for more.

You don't have to play emotional "Mind" games with them to keep them interested.

You don't have to stop the class when you think they are reaching the limit and "Chit Chat" with them.

You don't have to constantly think of ways to make the class more "Fun".

You don't have to constantly try to think up new and different ways to teach the same things.

You don't have to constantly offer them new stuff so they don't get board.

You don't constantly have to worry about making sure they "Think" you are paying attention to them at all times.

You don't have to worry about trying to make them "Think" they are your favorite special student.

The Hard core student you can just train them hard strait up with no BS. If they train untill they have heat exaughstion from drilling footwork drills for three hours in a park's parking lot, they get up, go home and rest up and come back for more. Un fortunetly, in a comercial setting your going to have at BEST one or two of those out of 10, maybe less than that.

I think OSO has the right idea. He's thought this well out.

Water Dragon

12-12-2002, 06:18 PM

Well, I may be Old School in my thinking, but I disagree. BJJ does it, Muay Thai does it, Boxing does it, Judo does it, Kyukoshin, K1, Sambo, Shidokan etc all do it and do it well.

I'm not saying that everyone compete or become a "master" of their representative style. But in any martial art that can be considered "martial", there standards that must be adhered to. There is a certain level of cardio that must be maintained, there is a certain level of strength that musy be maintained. Stances must be held correctly, drills and sparring cannot be neglected. There are power building exercises and equipment training that exist in all CMA. This should be how classes are run. If the student can't tolerate or enjoy the training, they should leave. Let some other art have them.

As it stands now, I think CMA are a joke even though that's what I train. Fore every good CMA school I know of, there are at least 50 terrible ones. What a wonderful tradition we have inherited! Besides, you water the training down and the only benefit is in recreation. Yes, perhaps you only run 2 miles, 3 days a week. But you don't take a walk to the mailbox everyday and call yourself a runner. You don't claim to be a swimmer when all you do is sit out back in the kiddy pool kicking back a Corona (Well, I do. But that's a different thread). But in the CMA, you can waive your arms in the air and be a Sifu as long as you're wearing silk.

I can't understand where I'm the only one who sees this as a problem.

Water Dragon

12-12-2002, 06:23 PM

ps, it's just a hobby for me as well. I'm lucky if I can get in an hour a day, 4 days a week. But the hour is spent so that my legs are shaking, my lungs are burning, and my body is dripping sweat. This is as it should be. Hobbyists are welcome, dabblers are meat for the beast.

Royal Dragon

12-12-2002, 08:43 PM

"Well, I may be Old School in my thinking, but I disagree. BJJ does it, Muay Thai does it, Boxing does it, Judo does it, Kyukoshin, K1, Sambo, Shidokan etc all do it and do it well."

Reply]
Yes, but those styles attract the highly competitve to begin with. Also, many of them are run in small groups or clubs that make just enough to cover the mat fee's.

You saw where my club is going to be right?? If I can't maintain 150-200 students, you think they are going to just let me use all that space for my freinds??

However, if I can run a good main stream program that has all the soccer mom's and thier kids going 3 X a week for main stream classes and feel good Tai Chi lessons for health, I have LOADS of space that I and my friends can use for nothing more than the years club membership.

The people who would be interested in a main stream program would not last two seconds doing what "I" do, even WITH my health problems, let alone what your doing healthy. BUT, they are exposed to good Kung Fu, and a number of them will eventually end up doing it.

The key, is to give everyone what suites their needs. That is why I had a discussion with Brian about useing my program to farm for talent for him. I'll send the really dedicated students to him, and he'll send all the one's seeking "enlightenment" to me.

I think your wrong in your attitude because you don't realise that 90% of the types of peopel those "Mc Dojo's" serve will NEVER do full time, hard core training. they will quit and go to the local Tae Kwon Do school.

Wait until you have been teaching professionally for a wile, and you can't keep enough students to pay the rent without watering down, and you will see what I mean.

I have been on both sides of the fence, 3-4 hours DAILY training, holding postures for 10 minutes at a time thosand of kicks 3 times a week, sparring, fighting Iron plam, and h9urs of borring drills, to trying to keep the flighty general populace in class so I can have a place for the dedicated to practice. I "Blew it" trying to stay true to the cause, and lost it for the hard core students that I had. I learned a valuable lesson. You NEED the flighty general public to support the dedicated.

guohuen

12-12-2002, 09:31 PM

Soccer Moms!!!!
I bow thrice to your omnipotence Royal Dragon.:p

Water Dragon

12-12-2002, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

Wait until you have been teaching professionally for a wile, and you can't keep enough students to pay the rent without watering down, and you will see what I mean.

Yeah, the gym is nice, it's real nice. But if I have to, we'll train in the backyard or the park out in the snow. Ask Fa-Jing. He's been out by my place. He knows what it feels like to hit grass hard.

SevenStar

12-12-2002, 11:05 PM

dubD is right - catering to the maistream is a large part of the current state of CMA. You lower training standards, make things easier...sure, you retain students, but what about the quality of those students? I would rather work a full time job and teach 4 good students out of my house than to teach watered down martial arts to alot of people full time. Take a look a sport fighting. It's thriving now and doesn't cater to the mainstream. They have to train you hard if you will have any chance at all in competition, and that continually raises the standards of training.

The idea is not to lower standards to cater to the mainstream, but to make the mainstream step up to a higher standard. If you have to, use contracts. In bjj, we have contracts. of you sign up for 6 months and quit after two weeks because training for 3 hours 4 days (and sometimes 5) per week is too hard, then it's your loss because you still have to pay. If they don't want to train hard and become better at what they are doing, then forget them. Those that stay will reap the benefits of hard training.

yenhoi

12-12-2002, 11:05 PM

I train in my basement, converted to Dojo. It has room for 6 students and a teacher to train confortably. But I understand completly what RD is saying.

rubthebuddha

12-12-2002, 11:37 PM

i think each person here is making a good point. water has his dedicated folks, and royal has his rec folks and his enthusiasts. BOTH are good. think of it this way:

the hard core school is REALLY REALLY making good artists/fighters out of its students. this school makes good by having a few people kick lots of ass.

the general school may have its die hards, but it also has large numbers of folks who are just there for a couple reasons (shrink the gut, more confidence, etc.). this, too, is good. both are producing those couple solid students, and one of them is even improving the lives of a few extra folks on the side.

to me, both are good because i define good as benefiting people. the hard core students are giving TONS of effort, and water be darned if they aren't getting a ton out of what they do. royal has similar students and folks who put in minimal or slightly more effort, and they get a little bit out of it. but both schools are benefiting those people who come in their door. if a successful martial arts school is based solely on the average quality of their students, the hard-core school would win. but if a successful school is based on the number of people who gain from it even in smaller amounts, then that school would win.

i'd rather say both sides are important. my school is more like royal's -- we have our die-hard folks who are there constantly, and we have our recreationists who are there for a little improvement in our lives. we even have a very successful kids program (muay thai, rather than WT -- try to teach an 8-year-old WT :( ), and i think that, if you can pull off a kids program, great, because you're getting that many more people positively exposed to the martial arts instead of at some boner mcdojo.

however, there have been times when i wish we had fewer weeknight warriors and kept the space for us balls-out folks. this is rare, but it does cross my mind.

there's also the benefit of the what a larger school offers:

1. greater chance that those die-hards will cross your doorway and get hooked.
2. greater income -- so you can afford a nice place to practice your stuff. a garage isn't a must, and anyone who's practiced in a nice, open kwoon knows how it may be.
3. greater general good done -- i believe it's our duty as martial artists to better the world around us, and the more folks who partake of martial arts, the more folks living happy, healthy lives.
4. greater opinion of martial arts -- there are enough hosebags and halfwits running pathetic kwoons and dojos in this world. it'd be nice to have good schools well known to have that side of the arts balanced out.

anyhoo, i'm not taking any sides in this. i think both types of schools are grand, and each has its place and purpose.

rubthebuddha

12-12-2002, 11:41 PM

oso,

yeah, it's beautiful up here. our town is about as large as yours, plus we have the third-biggest university in the state here (my alma mater and employer) and all sorts of other good things. we're rated as one of the best places for outdoorsy folk to come play (hills and mountains and lakes and the bay) and one of the nicest cities in the states for people to retire to (a pretty darn clean city on top of all those good outdoorsy things).

only problem? the girl of my dreams, with whom i've been with for almost a year (one year on the 18th :)) lives in austin, texas. :(

SevenStar

12-13-2002, 12:31 AM

so let the weekend warriors train 3 hours a day once or twice a week. We have students like that. You don't have to water down the curriculum for that. I understand RD's point, just don't agree with it. watering down of training is not a necessary evil, IMO.

Oso

12-13-2002, 06:10 AM

I think RTB summed it up well.

I don't think anyone is talking about watering down the art.

I think it sounds a little elitest to say that only the truly hardcore
should be training.

That doesn't allow the person who must maintain a full time job
(or more these days) to feed his family but really has a true
desire to learn something.

It seems like the ideal is for a lot of in the gym/school training.
Water Dragon or Sevenstar said something about 4-5 3 hour
days. What about out of class training?

I am only able to offer
two 1 1/2 hour classes a week at the moment. Hopefully, after
the first of the year and a change of venue, I will be able to
offer a 3rd class. Down the road if I go full time I'll have class
4 nights a week and open on saturday's for general training.

I have always set a minimum amount of time for out of class
training. Given the 10 step structure I have in place, I tell
students that they must train at least once outside of class
for 30 minutes per rank. So a beginner must train for
30 minutes, a mid level for 2-3 hours and an upper level for 4-5
hours.

I can tell if they don't and I call them on it. You do get drops
and always will. I got one now that I would really like to see
stop coming. All the other students hate training with her.
She'll probably stop after the first test or two.

Anyway, my question now was: How much class time vs.
personal time counts for you hard core folks?

How many sifu's out there, over the age of say...35, still train at
the level of their top students?

I surely don't throw as many kicks as I used to and don't spend
as much time stretching anymore. I try and get one day a week
where I run through all my forms at least 3 times each and need
to get back to a kicking workout again. But, there comes that
full time job again plus the time spent teaching plus the new
girlfriend plus...well that's my point.

Each student must simply try harder each day. If I see that they
are spending time and energy on their training and continuously
making progress then that's enough for me.

Matt

RUBTHEBUDDHA

Asheville gets similar ratings. I like it well enought but we do
collect a lot of the smog from the entire east coast for some
reason.

Austin is pretty durn cool though very hot in the summer.
6th street rocks if you like bars...and has the world's largest
condom shop.
:D

I just got lucky as hell with my girlfriend of 3 months. She trained
in what seems to have been a pretty good TKD/Hapkido system
and was pretty hardcore into breaking so she appreciates what
i'm doing and doesn't mind the time I spend on it. I think I'll
keep this one. :)

shameless plug

www.curious3d.com

her website, check it out and pass it on.

gotta get to work,

Matt

Water Dragon

12-13-2002, 09:20 AM

Matt, I've already said I'm a part timer as well. I don't care if you can only come to class once a week or 5 times a week. That's not important.

What's important is this: During that one class you WILL run around the gym. You WILL train stances until your legs shake. You WILL walk lines until you're sweating. You WILL bang arms and crack belts. You WILL put on the jacket and try to throw the other guy.

You don't have to spar, but you WILL taste a Thai roundhouse and a solid punch.

I don't even care if you train or not outside of class. If you can keep up, that's great. If not, leave before you get hurt.

SevenStar

12-13-2002, 10:19 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oso
I don't think anyone is talking about watering down the art.

RD was talking about it when he was mentioning catering to the mainstream

I think it sounds a little elitest to say that only the truly hardcore should be training.

that's not what I said. The hobbyists can train, but when they train, they WILL train hard. if they don't train out of class, that's cool. if they do, that's cool too. the hardcore ones will, which is why I wouldn't worry about watering down what I teach to keep students. What this will do is bring up the level of my average hobbyist, and hopefully, encourage them to train more.

That doesn't allow the person who must maintain a full time job
(or more these days) to feed his family but really has a true
desire to learn something.

I have a full time job, occasionally free lance in my spare time, have a wife and child, and still train 4 - 6 days a week for at least two hours AND go to the gym. there is time if you make it. My son happens to love martial arts, and he has a little mat area he can kick around on, so I usually take him to class with me. my wife usually gets home from work about an hour before I get home from class, so I'm not missing out on time with her by being in class. and on some of the days where she works the morning shift (she's a retail store manager) I will skip class so we can spend the evening together.

I am able to go to the gym on my lunch hour, where I will either lift or drill. on wed and fri, I uaually train on my own outside of class, however, a group of the dedicated guys will meet up and train a few wednesdays out of the month. on those instances, I train on my own on sunday. Time is there; you just have to manage it.

It seems like the ideal is for a lot of in the gym/school training.
Water Dragon or Sevenstar said something about 4-5 3 hour
days. What about out of class training?

if you are only in class 4 days, you still have three to train on your own, or you can even train on your own on class days, either before or after class.

I am only able to offer
two 1 1/2 hour classes a week at the moment. Hopefully, after
the first of the year and a change of venue, I will be able to
offer a 3rd class. Down the road if I go full time I'll have class
4 nights a week and open on saturday's for general training.

two days is fine - just make them count. train them hard; make them work.

I have always set a minimum amount of time for out of class
training. Given the 10 step structure I have in place, I tell
students that they must train at least once outside of class
for 30 minutes per rank. So a beginner must train for
30 minutes, a mid level for 2-3 hours and an upper level for 4-5
hours.

sounds good. Out of curiousity, how are you checking that? Do you make them keep journals or something?

I can tell if they don't and I call them on it. You do get drops
and always will. I got one now that I would really like to see
stop coming. All the other students hate training with her.
She'll probably stop after the first test or two.

I dunno...if I am supposed to train 4-5 hours and only train 2, I'm not sure how apparent it will be.

Anyway, my question now was: How much class time vs.
personal time counts for you hard core folks?

How many sifu's out there, over the age of say...35, still train at the level of their top students?

that's part of the beauty of grappling - you can do it (the ground work anyway) into VERY old age. my judo coach is 72 and I can't keep up with him. he still trains hard, plus he has the experience to pair with it. he doesn't just make us drill - he's right there doing it with us. my longfist instructor was pushing 35 - he was 32, but could move like the wind.

I surely don't throw as many kicks as I used to and don't spend
as much time stretching anymore. I try and get one day a week
where I run through all my forms at least 3 times each and need
to get back to a kicking workout again. But, there comes that
full time job again plus the time spent teaching plus the new
girlfriend plus...well that's my point.

time management.

fa_jing

12-13-2002, 01:44 PM

Training in WD's backyard is just fun. Grass is better than a regular mat over a hard floor. More natural, too. Plus the pre-training shot puts you in the mood for rough work. :)

Anyway, I think it is possible to be too hard core. When the teacher spends too much time yelling and psychologically berating the students that they're not working/training hard enough, that's when it's too hard core. When the whole class is doing punitive pushups because some people are chatting or not bowing all the time, it's too hardcore. When your injuries are ignored or belittled, it's too hardcore. When you have to take sh!t from an 18-year old headed for the Marines just because he's a higher belt than you, it's too hardcore. All of these are reasons why I left NPM after 6 months, even though the person running the school is one of the top Kung Fu experts in the area.

In contrast, I loved my wing chun/JKD training sessions, especially when we got to the "I can't go any f.arther" point, yet there was another round of hitting the bags or sparring that we had left to do, and somehow found a way to do it. "Find out where the power comes from" my teacher used to say, which is why he pushed us so hard. But ASIDE from the actual training, it was very easy-going, no uniforms, no belts, no nonsense.

SevenStar

12-13-2002, 02:49 PM

yeah, no doubt. you don't have to run a cobra kai type school to be hardcore. that is dangerous. you don't have to strip all the hardness out wither though, which is what wd is gettng at.

Oso

12-13-2002, 04:24 PM

<<What's important is this: During that one class you WILL run around the gym. You WILL train stances until your legs shake. You WILL walk lines until you're sweating. You WILL bang arms and crack belts. You WILL put on the jacket and try to throw the other guy.>>

Water Dragon

What I'm trying to say, maybe not so succesfully, is that
sort of training be a goal and not an immediate thing for
beginners. I started this thread asking about what other people
did to get students to a proper level of stance training. You can't
tell someone who walks in the school to immediately drop into
a horse for 5 minutes. I was working on figuring out a graduated
scale to get that first time student headed in the right direction.
Where the first time student's legs start shaking and a 3 year
veteran's legs shake will be different and that should be
acknowledged and provided for in the curriculum. What I posted
as my decision may be too little in the later training. If so then
I will change it.

<<You don't have to spar, but you WILL taste a Thai roundhouse and a solid punch.>>

I don't agree. You DO have to spar. I also have a very thought
out progression for sparring. Basically, pre-set 2 man drills for
about 6 months, non-preset 2 man drills for about 6 months and
then free sparring begining with slow speed light contact and
progressing toward higher speeds and contact levels as you
progress. I love sparring and am very frustrated by my too long
a hiatus from it. So, I train people to fight.

<<I don't even care if you train or not outside of class. If you can keep up, that's great.>>

agreed.

<<If not, leave before you get hurt.>>

hmmm, Injuries are commonplace enough.

thanks,

Matt

Oso

12-13-2002, 05:09 PM

<<[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oso
I don't think anyone is talking about watering down the art.>>

**RD was talking about it when he was mentioning catering to the mainstream**

SevenStar

ok, this is going to get complicated with all the quotes.
oh, and I may not get to finish before I go out to eat.
Poor time management I guess. Smile, I'm joking.

Ok, I don't know exactly what RD meant. It could be construed
as watering down but that's for him to say. As I said in the above
post to WD. What I'm trying to talk about is a progressioin
towards what we all feel is a true practice of CMA. I agree with
you about what it should be but feel strongly about how to get
the average person to that point. I think CMA probably loses
many people to the Mcdojo syndrome because they are
immediately presented with a very difficult level of training.

I have a breaking point about halfway to black sash. My attitude
towards a students progress changes then and they have to
make a serious commitment to the training and the art at this
point. I won't promote a person past this point if I wouldn't have
them at my back in a fight.

<<I think it sounds a little elitest to say that only the truly hardcore should be training.>>

**that's not what I said. The hobbyists can train, but when they train, they WILL train hard. if they don't train out of class, that's cool. if they do, that's cool too. the hardcore ones will, which is why I wouldn't worry about watering down what I teach to keep students. What this will do is bring up the level of my average hobbyist, and hopefully, encourage them to train more.**

I haven't disagreed with the concept of training hard. But it just
seems that you might be making 'cuts' in your student population
before you really give them a chance to get a feel for what it's
really like. I'm just advocating a steady progression towards
that goal vs. what sounds to me like a do or die scenario.

<<That doesn't allow the person who must maintain a full time job
(or more these days) to feed his family but really has a true
desire to learn something.>>

**I have a full time job, occasionally free lance in my spare time, have a wife and child, and still train 4 - 6 days a week for at least two hours AND go to the gym. there is time if you make it. My son happens to love martial arts, and he has a little mat area he can kick around on, so I usually take him to class with me. my wife usually gets home from work about an hour before I get home from class, so I'm not missing out on time with her by being in class. and on some of the days where she works the morning shift (she's a retail store manager) I will skip class so we can spend the evening together.

I am able to go to the gym on my lunch hour, where I will either lift or drill. on wed and fri, I uaually train on my own outside of class, however, a group of the dedicated guys will meet up and train a few wednesdays out of the month. on those instances, I train on my own on sunday. Time is there; you just have to manage it.**

Well, everyone's life is different. If you have the time to practice
as much as you do then I envy you. I don't think anyone can
make a judgement call about someone else's life. I also think
one goes through stages of training in that you might get a great
regimine going for a year or two but then something changes.

I just came out of a 8 year stretch of really constant training that
followed 4 years of fairly constant training that followed 3 years
of negligable training that followed 5 years of heavy training.
I hope to be moving into a new phase here after christmas that
will be one of heavy training and developement for me.
I moved a year and a half ago to be able to teach out from under
the shadow of my sifu and have had a pretty dull year and a half.

<<It seems like the ideal is for a lot of in the gym/school training.
Water Dragon or Sevenstar said something about 4-5 3 hour
days. What about out of class training?>>

**if you are only in class 4 days, you still have three to train on your own, or you can even train on your own on class days, either before or after class.**

well, sure, you can train anytime you have the time or make the
time. To debate that point anymore would delve too much into
mine and your's personal life. I'm sure the fine readers here at
KFO would be bored. I will certainly be inspired by your level
of training and seek to commit more time myself.

<<I am only able to offer
two 1 1/2 hour classes a week at the moment. Hopefully, after
the first of the year and a change of venue, I will be able to
offer a 3rd class. Down the road if I go full time I'll have class
4 nights a week and open on saturday's for general training.>>

**two days is fine - just make them count. train them hard; make them work.**

I don't think any of my students leaves class with a sense of loss
over wasted time. I think the debate has turned into the value
of hard core students vs. hobbyists. Funny you used that word.
I use it as well but in a different way by encouraging my students
to spend 'some' time everyday thinking or doing something
relavent to the training. "I learned something today" (Kyle voice)

I took a ballroom dance class last fall and really agreed with what
the guy had to say about practicing. 'You can do it anywhere,
anytime.' He went on to say that you didn't have to break out
the music or anything else. You could practice the dance steps
while brushing your teeth or at the grocery store. The important
part is to do it at all. I pass this lesson on to my students by
telling them to take 5 minutes here or 20 minutes there to do
SOMETHING related to the training. This changes as they
progress but again, my emphasis in this discussion is what you
do with the newbies to get them to stay for the hard stuff.

<<I have always set a minimum amount of time for out of class
training. Given the 10 step structure I have in place, I tell
students that they must train at least once outside of class
for 30 minutes per rank. So a beginner must train for
30 minutes, a mid level for 2-3 hours and an upper level for 4-5
hours.>>

**sounds good. Out of curiousity, how are you checking that? Do you make them keep journals or something?**

I only use the journal concept with kids and have the parents
sign off on the time.

<<I can tell if they don't and I call them on it. You do get drops
and always will. I got one now that I would really like to see
stop coming. All the other students hate training with her.
She'll probably stop after the first test or two.>>

**I dunno...if I am supposed to train 4-5 hours and only train 2, I'm not sure how apparent it will be.**

No, I probably couldn't tell if you trained a little or a lot. Not at
your level. If a less then one year student doesn't train at least
some between classes then I can tell.

<<Anyway, my question now was: How much class time vs.
personal time counts for you hard core folks?

How many sifu's out there, over the age of say...35, still train at the level of their top students?>>

**that's part of the beauty of grappling - you can do it (the ground work anyway) into VERY old age. my judo coach is 72 and I can't keep up with him. he still trains hard, plus he has the experience to pair with it. he doesn't just make us drill - he's right there doing it with us. my longfist instructor was pushing 35 - he was 32, but could move like the wind.>>

Now, that's getting a little art specific. I agree with the grappling
point though. My wrestling coach could still hang on through his
later years. But, that can be more due to the 'trickery and deciet
winning out over youth and vigor' concept. Confidence aids
relaxation and relaxation aids endurance. All things learned in
time.

<<I surely don't throw as many kicks as I used to and don't spend
as much time stretching anymore. I try and get one day a week
where I run through all my forms at least 3 times each and need
to get back to a kicking workout again. But, there comes that
full time job again plus the time spent teaching plus the new
girlfriend plus...well that's my point.>>

**time management**

I agree but time is still finite. If you know different then I'll be
there tomorrow to find out. :D

WHEW !!!

SO...my curiosity is still more concerned with the first year or so
of training. I agree that eventually everyone who wants it should
be sweating blood at some point. But, not everyone is
immediately ready for that. I can't believe you guys toss
beginners into the mix with 3-5 year students. Maybe you do.
That's ok. I'm not criticizing the approach. "That which does not
kill me..." and all that. It's just not mine.

peace

and thanks for the dialogue

Matt

time to go eat some chinese for tomorrow I train till I puke:D

Water Dragon

12-13-2002, 06:22 PM

Oso, I see your point. I guess we havea basic philosophical difference of opinion. I hold what many consider a "narrow" view of the CMA. Martial Arts exist for one thing, fighting. If you want the health benefits, good. You get that through running, push ups, sparring, etc. If you want the character improvement, good. Just by forcing your body to get back up after being thrown for the 70th time will build character. If you don't want to be a fighter, we can still give you benefit. If you don't want to work, there is nothing we can give you. Go do Yoga or medical Qi Gong, you'll be happier.

I hope this doesn't sound elitist, as it's not. But I am very proud of the fact that the name of Shuai Chiao carries respect wherever it goes. I have never met a CMA guy who didn't respect it. I have never met a BJJ guy, wrestler, or Judo who didn't respect it after being thrown. That is a testament to how I was trained and a testament to how my teachers were trained for literally a thousand years. To demand anything less should I ever teach is not only a mis-service to my students, it is a disgrace to those who have trained me and a *******ization of my art. I will watch my art die before I watch that tradition be born.

SevenStar

12-13-2002, 07:14 PM

I don't think I've ever seen a thread with consistent posts as long as these!

I think we have the same general view, just a different way of getting there. I actually agree with what you are saying though - it was RD's catering to the mainstream for student retention that I disagree with. I do believe in a natural progression also; you don't have to make a two week student hold hore for 20 minutes to be considered hardcore, but some of the stuff that's out there is really ridiculously weak. That's what comes to my head when picturing catering to the mainstream.

you're right about the lifestyle thing also. People do have different time schedules, different numbers of kids, etc. My only point there is that a person can find at least SOME time if they look for it, even if it's only an extra hour per day.

"Confidence aids
relaxation and relaxation aids endurance. All things learned in
time."

Nice!

In grappling, yeah we toss beginners in with 3 - 5 year students. In longfist we did also. you had to be at least yellow sash to spar though, so you knew enough to be able to start trying to hold your own in sparring.

grappling is a little different. you begin rolling with advanced students from the very beginning, which I think is very necessary. It helps immensely. There's a definite progression there - to paraphrase a Roy Harris article, in the beginning, you are like an antelope with a pack of tigers - you have to use what you have - speed, strength, flexibility, etc. to survive, because you don't know any techniques. as time goes on, you get comfortable with a few techniques and use your natural attributes to help you get them.

Royal Dragon

12-13-2002, 07:22 PM

"yeah, no doubt. you don't have to run a cobra kai type school to be hardcore. that is dangerous. you don't have to strip all the hardness out wither though, which is what wd is gettng at."

Reply]
Heeeey, I trained at Cobra kai on the mid 90's!!! It was a blast. we worked hard, and fought hard. I honestly never had as much fun in such a hard core envroment as Cobar Kai. In fact, I'm going to their Christmas party this Sunday!!!

WD,
I hear where you are comming from, but in my case, I have several life choices. With family responsibilities that inlcude supporting them, AS WELL AS being there with them, I have come to the conclusion that if I want "MY" Kung fu to be any good, or to even be in the type of physical shape I used to be in, I need to train a good 4-5 hours a day (like I used to), preferably 3 three hour sessions. The ONLY way I can accomlish my goals is if Ican teach 100 people a month for no les than $100 per month tuition (I get 40%) of that. A "Watered down main stream system is the only way i can do that securely and reliably.

With the location I will be moving into, I have the oppertunity to easily beat that teaching 3-4 one hour classes a day, leaving me mornings and after noons free to spend time with Terri, pick my daughter up from school, and tweak at least one 3 hour training session in a day, every day. Often, I may even get two in in a day depending on things. My daughter traines gymnastics at that very gym, so I will always be close to her by teaching there myself.

Also, during the summer, I can be with my daughter any time I want as there will be no need for a baby sitter since I will be home till my first class in the after noon. I could get up an train 2-3 hours in the moring, and have the rest of th day to just be "Dad".

You see, what I am doing IS watering the art down for comercial purposes, BUT, in the grander sceme of things, I am gettng TOP notch Kung Fu for me as I will have the time to actually persue it consistantly, I get to enjoy my family, AND I am raising the interest and promoting Kung Fu to the general public that would otherwise be lost to the Mc Dojo's. AND, I am farming for talent for the hard core "Golden Mountian" Kung fu school near by (made arrangments to send them the guys who want more than I can give).

AND I will also be providing a place for Monkey Slap to hold much bigger seminars ($80 X 50 attendies is a HUGE Chunk of change for him)

Not to mention, YOU will get to come in and throw down whenever you want to scedual the drive up to Westmont, Summer, Winter, Fall, Spring, Rain Shine or snow. Bring freinds.

So, who cares if the "Soccer mom's" are getting a watered down version of my Shaolin system. They wouldn't train in a hard core mannor anyway. Why not give them what suites them so I can support a greater good??

Royal Dragon

12-13-2002, 07:52 PM

If I use a progresive system like OSO is doing, I can TURN Main stream "Soccer Mom" types INTO Hard core kung fu junkies (A percentage of them anyway).

If I was NOT there, they would become Mcdojo/Karate guys, and never get exposed to Kung Fu at all.

I actually like OSO's thinking, he and I have alot of the same ideas.

What I want to do, is keep it challenging enough to develop them, but not make it so hard as to make them quit. it is NOT always the right thing to train hard core all the time. It's not a matter of "If you there, you'd better train till your legs shake". In a main stream program, training like THAT will drive them away in droves. Yes, when they start getting up in rank you can slowly begin pushing them harder, and I think only hard core players should be considered for a Black sash, but there is nothing wrong with going light on them even to as much as 2/3 of the way to Black Sash (How I do it)

Keeping an retaining students is a dance. You have to water it down enough to not scare them away, but challenge them enough so they don't quit out of boardom and offer enough varety to hold thier intrest (Lots of forms in a curiculem is good).

Oso mentioned something like 20 forms at Black sash, right? In my Northern and Southern Long Fist systems combined, INCLUDING the internal there are not that many sets. A hard core player will relish in this. A main stream student will bore quickly as they always need some thing "New" to keep their interest. They like to collect form rather than master them. If I give them what they want, I can get what "I" want too.

If I could, I would make them train only in the Six Southern sets, and when those are thourally mastered they can get a Black sash. I would have about 1 or 2 in a hunderd that would stay for that. They would have unbelievale Kung Fu though. However, my Kung Fu would still suck because all my time would be spent working and teaching. I would loose my family from never being around to see them, but I would have a student or two that are really good. Assuming of course they didn't leave due to the fact that my Kung Fu sucks and they went to better teachers.

I guess in the end, everyone's Kung fu would suck that way. Clearly the Mcdojo plan is the way to go as in the long run, many more people end up with good Kung Fu, especially me, even if it means a bunch of people (who will never be good no matter what, anyway) end up with mediocer skills at best.

SevenStar

12-13-2002, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

WD,
I hear where you are comming from, but in my case, I have several life choices. With family responsibilities that inlcude supporting them, AS WELL AS being there with them, I have come to the conclusion that if I want "MY" Kung fu to be any good, or to even be in the type of physical shape I used to be in, I need to train a good 4-5 hours a day (like I used to), preferably 3 three hour sessions. The ONLY way I can accomlish my goals is if Ican teach 100 people a month for no les than $100 per month tuition (I get 40%) of that. A "Watered down main stream system is the only way i can do that securely and reliably.

You see, what I am doing IS watering the art down for comercial purposes, BUT, in the grander sceme of things, I am gettng TOP notch Kung Fu for me as I will have the time to actually persue it consistantly, I get to enjoy my family, AND I am raising the interest and promoting Kung Fu to the general public that would otherwise be lost to the Mc Dojo's. AND, I am farming for talent for the hard core "Golden Mountian" Kung fu school near by (made arrangments to send them the guys who want more than I can give).

that's fine, but you are mcdojo-izing your school for the sake of furthering your training. How do they get any REAL benefit from that? $100 a month? wtf? Is that the avg. for chi? here it's usually between 50 and 80.

[b]So, who cares if the "Soccer mom's" are getting a watered down version of my Shaolin system. They wouldn't train in a hard core mannor anyway. Why not give them what suites them so I can support a greater good??

I'm sure the soccer moms that are trying to learn real martial arts and who may actually have to defend themsellves one day would care

SevenStar

12-13-2002, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

I guess in the end, everyone's Kung fu would suck that way. Clearly the Mcdojo plan is the way to go as in the long run, many more people end up with good Kung Fu, especially me, even if it means a bunch of people (who will never be good no matter what, anyway) end up with mediocer skills at best.

:(

yenhoi

12-13-2002, 10:56 PM

Quote WD:

That is a testament to how I was trained and a testament to how my teachers were trained for literally a thousand years. To demand anything less should I ever teach is not only a mis-service to my students, it is a disgrace to those who have trained me and a *******ization of my art. I will watch my art die before I watch that tradition be born.

--

That just brings a tear to my eye, stoutly put, right on brother man.

RD seems on the up and up, but I dont go for all that promoting the martial arts and helping people, or donating money to the green party - a teacher should be judged solely on the quality of his students. Personally, If my kung-fu was good enough to teach it to people, I would be slap ass happy if during my entire teaching career I turned out 1 high level person. But I dont teach, I dont have a school, I dont have a family to feed, all I have is myself, kung-fu, and a ferret named jack.

yenhoi

12-13-2002, 11:03 PM

Note on sparring the older folks:

We sparr nearly every class session. If theres a new guy there, then we sparr, and so does he. I dont think I sparred someone of the same skill level or lower then myself during my first six months with my current teacher. We litterally get thrown to the dogs.

My first test had no stance, no forms, no applications, no conditioning, no running, just a series of harder and harder scenarios and progressive sparring. Afterwards all I got was a pat on the back and a big "welcome to the club" smile from the rest of the group. Since then, I have seen over 30 new people come to class, only 2 of them have stayed.

Royal Dragon

12-14-2002, 03:32 PM

"I'm sure the soccer moms that are trying to learn real martial arts and who may actually have to defend themsellves one day would care"

Reply]
See, here's the problem with that. These types WILL NOT DO what it takes to fight well no matter what you do. If you even try to teach them the full art, they will just quit and go to "Joe Karate" down the street. No matter what "I" do, they will be in the same situation if they are mugged. The difference between me and "Joe Karate", is I will be at least teaching functional skills based on positioning, balance, gross body motion and escapes, especially to the lower levels. That, and if I actually get one who wants the real thing, and can handle the training, I have a home she can really work on her skills at. If I can't accomadate her needs, than I will pass her on to Golden Mountian (The only quality club for miles around me)

Becaue I do this, they will actually be better of if mugged having trained under me, then if they leave and study at "Joe's Mc dojo" down the street who's main emphasis will be point fighting stupidity that will get you killed on the street or in a Mugging/Rape senario.

See, I think I can teach real Kung Fu to the main stream, but I also recognise it must be simplifed, and varied enough to keep the intrest or they will quit. That does not mean I have to teach them stupid stuff, just make the good stuff easy enough to keep from loosing them.

Remeber, I'm not going to be dealing with those that are truly dedicated, I'm dealing with normal people who view this as a recreational activity, or those who want to learn simple self defence. They are looking to ease thier fears, not become fearless fighters. If I want to succeed, I have to cater to my clientel. If not, the project is doomed to failure, and I will not only loose an unlimited opertunity to develop myself, but I will cost my freinds a nearly free home to train and cultivate thier skills at the same time.

I'm going to be dealling with people who fear blood and bruises. I'm going to be dealling with people who buy their kids bicycle helmets instead of teaching their kids to fall right. I'm going to be dealing with people who have the attention span of evening television, as in 3 minutes of Comercials every five minutes of movie.

Don't you think it's better to give them a little something for that rape or mugging situation than have them face it with nothing at all? It sounds to me that you advocate only top notch martial arts trainig, and the main stream Joe who can't handle it should just have nothing at all.

Who's better prepared for that Mugging anyway?? The guy who drops out of your Muy Tai class because he can't deal with the bruisings, sweat or hard core workouts? or the guy who stays in my class and actually learns enough basic skills to defend and get away??

At least the guy in my school learns something useful, maybe it's just the thin line between escape and becomming a victem.

Your way drives that person out completetly, and they are guarenteed to be victems if it ever goes down. Think about it Seven, and you may yet see the light .

Water Dragon

12-14-2002, 04:28 PM

**shakes head as he realizes how futile it would be to type a reply**

:(

SevenStar

12-14-2002, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

Reply]
See, here's the problem with that. These types WILL NOT DO what it takes to fight well no matter what you do. If you even try to teach them the full art, they will just quit and go to "Joe Karate" down the street. No matter what "I" do, they will be in the same situation if they are mugged. The difference between me and "Joe Karate", is I will be at least teaching functional skills based on positioning, balance, gross body motion and escapes, especially to the lower levels. That, and if I actually get one who wants the real thing, and can handle the training, I have a home she can really work on her skills at. If I can't accomadate her needs, than I will pass her on to Golden Mountian (The only quality club for miles around me)

Here's the problem with that... you don't know what will happen to the soccer mom after she begins training. She may love it. she may excel at it and want harder training which means

1. you train her the way you should have been doing in the first place
2. you give her to Brian, and lose her business.

Joe karate teaches funcitonal skills. It's the way they train them that can make it ineffective - the same thing that may happen with you teaching in a watered down manner.

See, I think I can teach real Kung Fu to the main stream, but I also recognise it must be simplifed, and varied enough to keep the intrest or they will quit. That does not mean I have to teach them stupid stuff, just make the good stuff easy enough to keep from loosing them.

There's nothing wrong with simplification - I advocate that, especially for those who learn faster by breaking things down. My qualm is with the whole watering down thing... watering down implies thing like making the training easier, not showing applications, etc. IMO

Remeber, I'm not going to be dealing with those that are truly dedicated, I'm dealing with normal people who view this as a recreational activity, or those who want to learn simple self defence. They are looking to ease thier fears, not become fearless fighters. If I want to succeed, I have to cater to my clientel. If not, the project is doomed to failure, and I will not only loose an unlimited opertunity to develop myself, but I will cost my freinds a nearly free home to train and cultivate thier skills at the same time.

I can respect that, but by admittedly teaching something watered down to your students, you will be easing there fears and replacing it with what could be a false sense of confidence.

I'm going to be dealling with people who fear blood and bruises. I'm going to be dealling with people who buy their kids bicycle helmets instead of teaching their kids to fall right. I'm going to be dealing with people who have the attention span of evening television, as in 3 minutes of Comercials every five minutes of movie.

Many people fear bruises in the beginning. that's natural. For the short attention span, work with it. Let them work in short intervals, then break. over time, increase the work intervals.

Don't you think it's better to give them a little something for that rape or mugging situation than have them face it with nothing at all? It sounds to me that you advocate only top notch martial arts trainig, and the main stream Joe who can't handle it should just have nothing at all.

Something is better than nothing - sometimes... However, yes, I am advocating top notch training. Of course, you should teach progressively, but that doesn't mean water it down. if they choose to leave, then that's on them. You can lead a horse to water...

Who's better prepared for that Mugging anyway?? The guy who drops out of your Muy Tai class because he can't deal with the bruisings, sweat or hard core workouts? or the guy who stays in my class and actually learns enough basic skills to defend and get away??

That would depend on a few things. When did he drop out? How was your student trained? what is the student's mentality like? How does the student deal with the stress/adrenaline of an altercation? You can't really answer that question based on the info we have.

Your way drives that person out completetly, and they are guarenteed to be victems if it ever goes down. Think about it Seven, and you may yet see the light .

The light is blocked by the notion of knowingly watering down the style. Like I said though, I could be misunderstanding what you are calling "watered down"

Royal Dragon

12-14-2002, 08:43 PM

"Here's the problem with that... you don't know what will happen to the soccer mom after she begins training. She may love it. she may excel at it and want harder training which means

1. you train her the way you should have been doing in the first place
2. you give her to Brian, and lose her business.

Joe karate teaches funcitonal skills. It's the way they train them that can make it ineffective - the same thing that may happen with you teaching in a watered down manner."

Reply]
1. "IF" she is capable of training that way, it is often only after a good deal of progression has occured and the Kung Fu bug bites her . Once that has happened, I will have to move her into a special class set up for that. The thing is, I may not have time. In which case I will have to make her a "Training partner", and bring her in to that time slot, as that is the only time I will have flexibility to vary the program for one specific individual. I would be happy to do this, as I know only a very SMALL percentage will develop to this level of desire and dedication anyway.

As for # 2. Brian only accepts about 14 people at a time anyway, I'm looking to teach 150 to close to 300 in time (He he he, I get 40% of the gross @ a MINIMUM of $100 month, do the math :eek: ).

He has a rep locally for kicking people out who are not totally, and completely hard core. He turns down lots of people who he will just send to me (Hopefully anyway), so loosing one or two good students to him is no biggie as I will be getting his "Rejects" in return. Besides, it is better for the art that way. My nitch is a more main stream level than his. There will be exchanges between or two schools for sure. Of that, I have no doubt.

Watered down in my defintiotn is this

1. Eaisier work outs. Less time drilling. Stop class to joke a bit or talk.

2. more froms. People LOVE to collect forms, so i am teaching a bunch.

3. Shorter classes. 1 Hour tops. Once they get to level 5, or 6 I will bump it up to 1-1/2 or 2 hours, or make them take double classes or something.

4. More drilling techniques and less sparring. People fear sparring, it drive them away. Drilling techniques alot is more "Comfortable".

5. Hitting body sheilds foucus pads and bag work etc. This is actually a good thing both for the training, and student retention as it is a "Fun" thing to do.

I used to train so that in 1 hour to 1-1/2 I could not stand (Literally) This was accomplished 3 times a week by holding postures fro 40 minutes, and doing polymetric jumping drills after till exaughstion.

You guys haven't seen it, but my idea of hard training is pretty intense. I know WD works pretty hard, but there have been times we were together and MJ would call for rest, and I would rest in an "Iron Chair" ile he stood and rested. My back pain was holding me back much more than my fatigue levels. My idea of watered down may very well be just under what WD does in his one hour a day 4 days a week.

The jist of what I'm doing is to start easy, and slowly increase the intenstiy, but not "Over challenge" them. I will adjust the lessons based on the student emotional considerations. In hard core Kung Fu emotions are not even an issue, it's persavering through great difficulty. THAT is the difference. All else is pretty much the same except the teaching of more forms due to low attention span issues I will be facing in dealling with the general public.

I teach a system where the first 3 froms are a complete system, the next two another, and the next two another and so on.

If one is seriously interested in being good all they will have to do is concentrit on the few forms in any section of the system with full dedication, and they will have GREAT Kung Fu.

*BY that I mean to practice the whole from, trained the way WD described his forms training above along with really diving deep into the applications of the sets, not just reciting the pattern.

I have put great thought inot putting together a very flexible curriculem and teaching system that will serve as many client's needs as possible. It is set up to progressively develop total beginners INTO the hard core. I know only a small percentrage will make it, and I am predicting the drop out rate to be pretty high after level 6-7 due to increasing demands, but I should still be able to maintain my student numbers with the lower ranks.

Your largest group is always the beginner to intermediate levels. they are the bread and butter of a school. I will be gearring to serve their needs first. The General public is very fickle, and if they last to level 6-7, it means they are ready for more serious training, and have crossed over into the relm of the dedicated.

My goal is to make sure that by level 6, they have a solid foundation, and can handle them selves if nessary. I also want to make sure thay have the knowledge to use their Kung Fu as a health maintinance system that can be done anytime, anywhere.

If that makes me a "Mc Dojo" Master, then so be it, i'll have at least cool $5000 a month that is MINE to make me feel better, AND the opertunity to have good Kung Fu for myself at least.

Oso

12-14-2002, 09:11 PM

Royal Dragon

Sorta off topic but I'm a bike rider and I just want to say that
no matter how well you can fall...wear a helmet when you ride
a bike, on road or off.

Safety Owl Signing off.

Water Dragon, SevenStar

I just deleted a response that I realized was pretty redundant.
I think we have succesfully debated this topic to a conclusion.

I think the bottom line is that different people seek the martial
arts for different reasons. Each will probably find there own.

Thanks for the discussion,

see ya around,

Matt

Oso

12-14-2002, 09:20 PM

....still looking kinda circular

Bike riders should wear helmets.

Different Schools will teach things differently.

Hopefully, all for the best.

Sadly, not always.

Bike riders should wear helmets.

peace

Matt

Royal Dragon

12-14-2002, 09:55 PM

Ok, Ok, Ok...Bike riders should wear helmets. Not that I ever did though, I just was really good at falling saftly..........well, except that one time.....................................:eek:

SevenStar

12-14-2002, 10:31 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Royal Dragon

He has a rep locally for kicking people out who are not totally, and completely hard core. He turns down lots of people who he will just send to me (Hopefully anyway), so loosing one or two good students to him is no biggie as I will be getting his "Rejects" in return. Besides, it is better for the art that way. My nitch is a more main stream level than his. There will be exchanges between or two schools for sure. Of that, I have no doubt.

You make it sound as if you only have basic stuff to teach. They train with you, then graduate to Brian?

Watered down in my defintiotn is this

1. Eaisier work outs. Less time drilling. Stop class to joke a bit or talk.

2. more froms. People LOVE to collect forms, so i am teaching a bunch.

3. Shorter classes. 1 Hour tops. Once they get to level 5, or 6 I will bump it up to 1-1/2 or 2 hours, or make them take double classes or something.

4. More drilling techniques and less sparring. People fear sparring, it drive them away. Drilling techniques alot is more "Comfortable".

5. Hitting body sheilds foucus pads and bag work etc. This is actually a good thing both for the training, and student retention as it is a "Fun" thing to do.

That's what I was afraid of. Those are the things we always complain about - less time drilling, easier workouts, little sparring, alot of time on forms... Now, let's go back to the student you mentioned in your above post - How likely is he to withstand an attacker with that?

I used to train so that in 1 hour to 1-1/2 I could not stand (Literally) This was accomplished 3 times a week by holding postures fro 40 minutes, and doing polymetric jumping drills after till exaughstion.

That's what I'm talking about - why not give your students that too? of course, they can't do that from the beginning, but work them into it.

The jist of what I'm doing is to start easy, and slowly increase the intenstiy, but not "Over challenge" them. I will adjust the lessons based on the student emotional considerations. In hard core Kung Fu emotions are not even an issue, it's persavering through great difficulty. THAT is the difference. All else is pretty much the same except the teaching of more forms due to low attention span issues I will be facing in dealling with the general public.

That sounds good, all except for the generalization of what your students will be like.

Royal Dragon

12-14-2002, 11:43 PM

"You make it sound as if you only have basic stuff to teach. They train with you, then graduate to Brian?"

Reply]
No, it's not that really, but more like he has a depth of knowledge that exceeds mine quite a bit. Once I get someone to where I'm at, there is no reason why I couldn't just keep progressing them too. BUT, he has more experiance, and better Kung Fu than I do. No sense holding someone back when there are more knowledgeable teachers close by. If I had the abiltiy to give him the dedication he wants, I'd consider training under him myself. I need more flexibility than he could provide me though.

I have more to offer than 95% of the people I will be dealling with can handle anytime soon, but it's that 5% that really need more than I can give. It's important to know your limits.

A good exmple is in Gymnastics (My daughter took 7th place on bars and beam today 6th all around BTW) Many coaches are more than capable to coach up to level 7 or 8, maybe even level 9, but if they get serious talent and dedication, they can't give that gymnast what they need. Only the Illinos Gymnastics Institue is qualified to sucsessfully coach levels 9,10 and elite into the madal stand (Around here anyway). For a regular club to "Try" toc oach a gymnast at that level, without the experiance is a detriment to that gymnast, and the owner of that gym SHOULD send them to IGI to continue training into the upper and elite levels. The job of the regular gym is to adiquately prepare a gymnast for the Elite level gym like IGI. I see myself in th position of the regular gym, and it is my responsibility to direct the Elite level hopefuls to the Elite level clubs.

In all honesty, if Wai Lun Choi was closer to me, i'd be sending those potentials to him as he is the top level Kung Fu in Chicago area with out a doubt.

Now, someday I will be able to handle those who need that level myself. There is a good chanceIi will not even see someone who needs that level of coaching skilll unitll I am more than ready to handle it myself, but till then I have to know my limits and more importantly respect them. If I get a student who needs more than I can give, I should send them to whoever can give them what they need.

I don't want to be what most consider a "Mc Dojo". I want something that only needs more dedication to be the "Real thing" so to speak.

You made a point that most Mc Dojos teach good skills, only the way they train them that makes them not functional, right? I totally disagree. The complete Mc DOjo is not only teaching skills poorly, they are teaching poor skills. AND they are convincing people those skills will be functional in real life situations. I on the otherhand know how to fight for real, I've been there and survived. I can easily cut through the BS'n and get to the point and deliver a functional defense system. I'm a VERY real person. being that, I have to acknowledge my own limits, and not hide behind the fantasy found in most schools. I have always taught this way, and I have found that people respect this, and they stay with me because of it. i don't need they typical gimicks of other schools.

"
That's what I was afraid of. Those are the things we always complain about - less time drilling, easier workouts, little sparring, alot of time on forms... Now, let's go back to the student you mentioned in your above post - How likely is he to withstand an attacker with that?"

Reply]
Fighting is about stratigy as much as hard training and strong conditioning. A base sysetm that utilise gross motor skills good positioning and escapes can effectievly be taught to the common student. You have to realise that teaching them the way I "Want" to will drive them away, and they will have no skill at all. At least with the program I have come up with they will have a better chance than with nothing, and they will have a WAY better chance than if they learned from another local school that teaches stuff that will actually get them in deeper trouble.

"That's what I'm talking about - why not give your students that too? of course, they can't do that from the beginning, but work them into it."

Reply]
Because they will quit. I have had MARINES quit becuase my lessons were too hard. I was just costing so as no to push him too hard too. He kept his kid in my program though (Go figure :rolleyes: )

The only way you can run a volume system and teach hard core is if you create a "Cult" and use brainwashing techniques and cult recruitment stratigies, and I WON'T do that.

Noone is going to spend a year on only 3 simple forms, drilling the same handfull of techniques and drills. It's too borring. When I get someone who comes to the open classes and I see they are doing that on thier own anyway, I will give them more than the rest of the class. If I don't then THEY will quit because they do not feel challenged enough.

I can make a whole class out of horse stance into Pou Chwie (sp? cannon fist?) Will I have a studio if I do that?? Nope. I won't be able to pay the rent. BUT, every once and a wile, you find someone who just THRIVES off that. I will make special arrangments for them.

Remember, I am being contracted to run their martial arts program for them. if I can't make it work they are going to get some ultra waterd down "feel good" Karate guy in there to do it for instead, and the students will be far worse off and I won't have a place to continue developing myself either.

"That sounds good, all except for the generalization of what your students will be like."

reply]
It may not "Sound" good, but it is statistically accurate. If I don't recognise and accept that, the venture will fail. There is a REASON why so many schools open, and then close agian so quickly. Most people see kung fu on TV, and think with a few lessons, they can be "Jet Li" in "The one" or something. It doesn't help when the local TKD school is popping Black Belts out in 2-1/2 years either. With my program, even watered down your looking at, at least twice that, if not 3 times that amount of time. Students don't realise how much work is involved. Once they do, they quit. That is the true nature of the common modern day student.

Most students are not there to learn to fight, they are there to buy into the fantasy. That is why schools like Shaolin Do, Temple Kung Fu and Chung moo quan do so well. They are not selling reality, they are selling the fantasy of being invincible (in between the comercials of course).

In this country, low attention span is running rampant. As teachers, if we want to be sucsessful, we need to adjust for that.

Educationg the consumer is also going to be a big part of the process.

SevenStar

12-15-2002, 10:32 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Royal Dragon
No, it's not that really, but more like he has a depth of knowledge that exceeds mine quite a bit. Once I get someone to where I'm at, there is no reason why I couldn't just keep progressing them too. BUT, he has more experiance, and better Kung Fu than I do. No sense holding someone back when there are more knowledgeable teachers close by. If I had the abiltiy to give him the dedication he wants, I'd consider training under him myself. I need more flexibility than he could provide me though.

That makes sense. They are still going to have to start from scratch though, relearning alot and then learning new things though, correct? I know there is a lot of difference in Brian's longfist and in Tsai's.

A good exmple is in Gymnastics (My daughter took 7th place on bars and beam today 6th all around BTW)

Congrats to your daughter!

You made a point that most Mc Dojos teach good skills, only the way they train them that makes them not functional, right? I totally disagree. The complete Mc DOjo is not only teaching skills poorly, they are teaching poor skills. AND they are convincing people those skills will be functional in real life situations. I on the otherhand know how to fight for real, I've been there and survived. I can easily cut through the BS'n and get to the point and deliver a functional defense system. I'm a VERY real person. being that, I have to acknowledge my own limits, and not hide behind the fantasy found in most schools. I have always taught this way, and I have found that people respect this, and they stay with me because of it. i don't need they typical gimicks of other schools.[b]

That's fine and good, but real techniques with LESS drilling, LESS sparring, MORE work on forms...

[b]Fighting is about stratigy as much as hard training and strong conditioning. A base sysetm that utilise gross motor skills good positioning and escapes can effectievly be taught to the common student. You have to realise that teaching them the way I "Want" to will drive them away, and they will have no skill at all. At least with the program I have come up with they will have a better chance than with nothing, and they will have a WAY better chance than if they learned from another local school that teaches stuff that will actually get them in deeper trouble.

Yes, strategy plays a big part, but practical application does as well, if not more so, because that is where they are actually USING the strategies they have learned. Alot of things sound good, but when you try them, it's a lot different and requires training and effort to be able to do. A perfect example is the age old thing of "when someone tries a double leg, I will just move out of the way and do technique X" but as we have seen, that is easier than done.

Noone is going to spend a year on only 3 simple forms, drilling the same handfull of techniques and drills. It's too borring. When I get someone who comes to the open classes and I see they are doing that on thier own anyway, I will give them more than the rest of the class. If I don't then THEY will quit because they do not feel challenged enough.

Sure they will, if they think they are learning alot in the process. Tai Chi students do it all the time.

It may not "Sound" good, but it is statistically accurate. If I don't recognise and accept that, the venture will fail. There is a REASON why so many schools open, and then close agian so quickly. Most people see kung fu on TV, and think with a few lessons, they can be "Jet Li" in "The one" or something. It doesn't help when the local TKD school is popping Black Belts out in 2-1/2 years either. With my program, even watered down your looking at, at least twice that, if not 3 times that amount of time. Students don't realise how much work is involved. Once they do, they quit. That is the true nature of the common modern day student.

That's exactly why you should try to undertake changing that. Help to raise the standard. Then people see the difference, and they see how full of BS the McSchools actually are. And even the McSchools will begin to raise the bar, as they will have to compete with real MA.

SevenStar

12-15-2002, 12:10 PM

One more note - there's nothing wrong with buying into the fantasy - you just have to know how to differentiate, which is something you can teach them. I'm sure many of us that are into MA now started either
1. to learn to fight
2. the fantasy
3. fitness

I fall into 1 and 2. I used to watch kung fu theater every saturday. One day, I locked myself in the bathroom and tried to kick the door down. I was only about 3, and didn't know how to unlock the door. my mom had to pick it to get me out. (I could read when I was three, but couldn't unlock a door. go figure :rolleyes: ) when I was 6, there was a bully at my school who decided to pick on me. I didn't even use martial arts to beat him - my friend and I jumped him, then threw his shoes into a kerosene heater :eek: After that, I started training MA.

The fantasy has always been a type of motivation for me though. It's not uncommon for me to watch a martial arts movie or a fighting anime while I am training at home. As long as you can differentiate, it's okay.

Oso

12-15-2002, 01:50 PM

SevenStar

Interesting story about your beginnings.

There was a guy in my sifu's school that I couldn't stand.
One of the questions asked on a test was "Why did you start?"
He responded with " I wanted to learn to fight "
At that point in my training I was very heavy into the 'art'
side of it and disdained his answer.
Later, as I said in an earlier post, I decided that I thought it
was 'all about the fighting'. His response was just honest.
I still thought he was a punk. :) But, not for his training ideas.

I just thought it was cool. I was small and picked on all through
grade school and middle school. I have a fairly noticable scar
on my mouth from an accident as a child. You can guess what
that got me all through school.

I started wrestling in 9th grade and my confidence soared. I
started training kung fu in 10th. I've only been in one fight
since then, not counting 7 years of bouncing. And, I got in much
trouble for that fight with my first sifu as it happened only 6
months after I started training.

The fantasy aspect is always present, I think.

I like looking at the old flicks and picking fight sequences
that look like they came directly out of a form. I think you
can see them as they look more linked than a random
set of techniques. Not that a random set of techniques
properly applied are not.

One of my favorite inspirational videos to watch is the Riverdance
video. Not martial but a great example of people who have
definitely put a little 'kung fu' into what they are doing.

he-he...a big old fat kid stole a hat of mine in 9th grade (post
1st season of wrestling, pre-ma ) and I waited till the next day
and waited for him in the hall...jumped out and smacked him in
the forehead with the back of my hand, knocked the hat off, he
fell down, I grabbed the hat and ran like hell before he got back
on his feet. He didn't ever talk to me after that though.

Happy Sunday !

Matt

yenhoi

12-15-2002, 02:27 PM

Quote the bear:

...waited for him in the hall...jumped out and smacked him in
the forehead with the back of my hand, knocked the hat off, he
fell down, I grabbed the hat and ran like hell before he got back
on his feet. He didn't ever talk to me after that though.

--

Great kung-fu :D You only did one thing wrong, the backfist should have been an eye gouge, and when he was on the ground you should have ripped out his throat.

I just replied to admit that I watch Kung-fu movies while I train too.

Oso

12-15-2002, 02:40 PM

I think I was really just trying to knock the hat off, snatch
it and run ( I really liked that hat, it was a blue denim cowboy
hat ) and missed the hat and literally just b***h slapped the
hell out of him. Surprised the crap out of me and apparently
him as well.

Otherwise, I would have certainly ripped his throat out :D

Matt

Royal Dragon

12-15-2002, 03:49 PM

"That makes sense. They are still going to have to start from scratch though, relearning alot and then learning new things though, correct? I know there is a lot of difference in Brian's longfist and in Tsai's."

Reply]
Quite true. Now if you take into account I have been going my own way since I left Tsai's around 94, What I do now is really different than both of them. Brian only accepts about 14 people at a time anyway. I may very well send someone to him, and he will turn them down. In that case, they will end up by me again as I will be the ONLY Kung Fu for miles around.

"Congrats to your daughter!"

Reply]
THANKS!! Believe it or not, she's not happy because she didn't place in the top 3 :confused:

"Yes, strategy plays a big part, but practical application does as well, if not more so, because that is where they are actually USING the strategies they have learned. Alot of things sound good, but when you try them, it's a lot different and requires training and effort to be able to do. A perfect example is the age old thing of "when someone tries a double leg, I will just move out of the way and do technique X" but as we have seen, that is easier than done."

Reply]
Strategy IS application. This falls under the drilling techniques section of training. I can't all out fight the students right away, but some sort of light testing will have to be done. If I find a few that really like to spar hard, I'm going to let them get into it.

"Sure they will, if they think they are learning alot in the process. Tai Chi students do it all the time."

Reply]
Very few taiji students are taught real Taiji. If they were, a year doing only the 8 posture sets, and body mechanics drills would drive them away out of bordom. The long form keeps them learning new sturff all the time, and thus keeps the interest. Many of the modern TAiji students are taught push hands years before they are ready, just to keep thier intrest so they stay in class.

"It doesn't help when the local TKD school is popping Black Belts out in 2-1/2 years either. With my program, even watered down your looking at, at least twice that, if not 3 times that amount of time. Students don't realise how much work is involved. Once they do, they quit. That is the true nature of the common modern day student.

That's exactly why you should try to undertake changing that. Help to raise the standard. Then people see the difference, and they see how full of BS the McSchools actually are. And even the McSchools will begin to raise the bar, as they will have to compete with real MA."

Reply]
That is something I would like to do actually. BUT, I have to keep them in the class room first, and expose them slowly or it will never work.

SevenStar

12-15-2002, 04:58 PM

"Very few taiji students are taught real Taiji. If they were, a year doing only the 8 posture sets, and body mechanics drills would drive them away out of bordom. The long form keeps them learning new sturff all the time, and thus keeps the interest. Many of the modern TAiji students are taught push hands years before they are ready, just to keep thier intrest so they stay in class."

That's exactly why I used them as an example. they learn the long form - a singular form that keeps them busy for years - and it's the most McSchooled CMA around. You can give them the same set of drills that are based on a certain principle and keep them busy for 6 months easy studying that principle. I'm not saying go do that, but if McChi can do it, true CMA certainly can.

SevenStar

12-15-2002, 05:22 PM

yu shan just posted this in another thread - this is exactly what I was talking about when I said you can keep them busy with a form:

"Form work,

We train the original side (bung lu) as a single-side to the form. Get this down good, then we teach two-person hand drills out of the form, on to two-person kicking drills. Then we break the form up into mini-two-person exercises, get all this down, then your taught the two-person form. There is the original side (bung lu) and the other side , receiving side or (ling chuan). Alot goes into just one form. You will know your form inside and out...then on to fighting with the theory of the form."

That's beautiful.

Royal Dragon

12-15-2002, 05:24 PM

Actually, they don't Those classes are usually a revolving door. Every session they have all new people. As soon as the students memorise the set, they quit.

Also, Tai Chi is very easy. If you make the class fun, you can keep them the whole session. If you just drill it, as it's suposed to be drilled, they quit.

If you don't have the hokey Chinese music, they quit.

I had a really good reply, but my system crashed, and I lost it. :(

The jist of it was that most of those Tai Chi for health programs don't have any long term students. That is one reason why you don't find any real Tai chi out there anywhere.

SevenStar

12-15-2002, 06:02 PM

That's gonna vary school to school, region to region - there are threee schools here that teach tai chi for health - One of them ONLY teaches tai chi even though the insrtuctor also knows wing chun and muay thai - and I know at least two of those schools have several long term students.

SevenStar

12-15-2002, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Oso

I just thought it was cool. I was small and picked on all through
grade school and middle school. I have a fairly noticable scar
on my mouth from an accident as a child. You can guess what
that got me all through school.

I was the exact opposite. All through elementary, my friends would tell me when they got bullied, and I'd go handle the bully. I was like the bully bullier.

when I was in 7th grade, some bully tried to pick on me in PE, as it was my first day in the school, and I guess because I wore glasses, he figured I was a weak nerd or something. My lunch bag was in my lap and he reached his had in it to take whatever he could. I closed his hand around the bag, and one of the guys next to me said "just let him have it" I said no. I kept pressure around the guys hand, so he pulled my glasses of with his other hand. I tore into him. One of his friends was going to jump in it, but the guy who warned me a few minutes earlier saw him and stood up - turns out he trained in karate. The two boys ened up getting suspended as they were big trouble makers, and nothing happened to us, as we were only defending ourselves. From that time on, everyone called us the double dragons.

Something almost scary happened a few months later though - the guy that took my glasses got taken to juvenile for stabbing somebody - I couldn't help but think that it could've been me.

FatherDog

12-15-2002, 06:24 PM

I spent grade school and junior high as a short, thin kid with gigantic glasses.

Around 9th grade, I started carrying a brick in the bottom of my bookbag. Never had a problem with anyone more than once after that.

Ah, the joys of a misspent youth. It's weird how many fewer fights we all have once we start training martial arts.

Royal Dragon

12-15-2002, 07:04 PM

Seven Star said "and I know at least two of those schools have several long term students."

Reply]
The operative word here is "several". You can't keep a school alive with only "Several" long term students, unless you can consistantly draw in lots of new students, who generally quit as soon as they get bord. Also, as I keep pointing out, "several" students from ANY program will be bit by the dedication bug. Only those few can be trained for real. The rest you have to play retention games and entertainment games with to keep them comming for any length of time.

Generally, if you can keep them for 3 years, there is a good chance they are a canidate for traditional training. In my system, they can get about 2/3 of the way through the ranking system. Once they get past that, it's going to take traditional practice to ever see Black sash.

I guess I'm looking to run a Mcdojo that preps students for traditional training.

SevenStar

12-16-2002, 01:14 AM

no, when I said several, I meant most of the students in the class. I dont have an exact number though, so I only said several. For the two schools that teach other systems, tai chi is the smallest, but they are all dedicated. For the school that only teaches tai chi, I'm not sure what he's doing to keep them. He studied under yang jwing ming though...his school has been around for a while, so he's doing something right.

Royal Dragon

12-16-2002, 05:51 AM

Hmmmm, Ok,
Maybe because he studied under Yang Jwing Ming. He might be drawing the hard core types to begin with due to the name recognition. I know Wai Lun Choi tends to do that as well. From talking to students of his now, and in the past it seems everyone he teaches short of a couple of people, all seem to have some sort of a background in another art prior to coming to him. His students are all more dedicated than the average school to begin with. They come to him BECAUSE of that fact, looking for top notch training from the start so he is free to teach how he wishes 'cause he's Choi. I'm just some white guy no one has heard of, so I have to teach a little differently.

TkdWarrior

12-16-2002, 06:46 AM

I'm just some white guy no one has heard of, so I have to teach a little differently.
well this is one points...
i think it's not a bad deal to choose students who can take or who really wish to take hard core training n train them...
if person livlehood is totally dependent on teaching then he can't hav the choices...he hav to caters the masses...
wat he can do is give him wat he is saying...
if u r not giving wat u advertise then u r not a good teacher or MacTeacher...
I Think RD is just trying to do that...
just my 0.2 cents...
-TkdWarrior-

fa_jing

12-16-2002, 02:15 PM

I think as long as RD keeps it honest with the students, i.e. "there's other more intense schools available" it's fine. Let the buyer beware, they say. He is offering a service to soccer moms that a lot of serious KF types are unable to provide.

I'm sure Choi is tops, but to say he is "the BEST" - there are some top guys in this area. Master Kwan NPM. Ng family arts (Choy li fut) My new taiji instructor, who has written 8 books on Taiji. My old JKD/Wing Chun instructor Nikita Johnson. There's places on Western Avenue, that guy Waylun Liao, who knows who else. Choi is certainly the most famous, and may have the most sought-after lineage.

rubthebuddha

12-16-2002, 05:41 PM

i think we're missing the two most important parts of all this:

1. both the hard-core and the slightly more mainstream types of schools allow these hosers to train.
2. each of these schools makes it possible for these two hosers to keep posting here.

what more do we need? they're happy, and that's the big issue. their students are happy, too, and that's the next big issue. who are we to say said happiness is bad?

BearBear

12-18-2002, 11:22 AM

2 kung fu sayings

"It's not the number of students one has, It's how good they are"

"It's better to train 1 good student than 10 medioce ones"

The idea of 2 "types" of classes has often been used.

I know some teachers that teach 1 Art to the general students and then their "real/main" art to another "hardcore/serious/dedicated" group. the first group get a good basic art etc still.

another way i seen is general/hobby tyoe students on tue and thur and the serious group on mon, wed, fri, sat. taichi and qi gong was sunday.

again u can use the money the hobbiest provide for equipment etc for the dedicated.

anyother way i saw was 6-8 hobbiest ... 8-10 continue hardcore after the 6-8pm "warm up" hehe

BB
http://tonglongforums.cjb.net
http://pub75.ezboard.com/bsouthernprayingmantiskungfu

SevenStar

12-18-2002, 06:59 PM

Hey, who you callin a hoser? ;)

rubthebuddha

12-19-2002, 12:47 AM

originally water and royal, but i'll gladly add you to the mix.

hoser. :cool:

SevenStar

12-19-2002, 12:54 AM

yo mamma. :D

Royal Dragon

12-19-2002, 07:52 PM

I Love You Too!!!!!!! :p

Grumblemumbemumbelgrumble"*******calledmeahoser"grumbemmumbemumlgruble. :eek: :D ;)

rubthebuddha

12-20-2002, 02:18 PM

:D

you guys know i meant it in the nicest way possible. to me, calling someone a hoser is like calling your best bud a motherfugger -- it's just for shats and giggles.

(apparently you hadn't noticed, but i backed you up on the school thing. and this is the thanks i get. :mad: )

;)

Water Dragon

12-20-2002, 02:48 PM

****** RTB. You should be backing me up here. The problem is, R.D. loves to go to all the forums and tell all the MMA guys that the CMA are awesome and the only problem is that they haven't seen real Gong Fu. He talks all kinds of **** about people who teach "watered down" CMA, but what is he talking about here? He's going to promote what he obviously hates :confused:

It's a classic pot meets kettle situation.

Oh yeah, you're a Hoser :D

scotty1

12-20-2002, 04:06 PM

You're all brick lickers.:)

MonkeySlap Too

12-20-2002, 04:06 PM

Fa Jing said: Choi is certainly the most famous, and may have the most sought-after lineage.

REPLY: Nah, he's just the most proven fighter with the highest level of acheivement. Choi is a BIG deal among the fighters in the know.

rubthebuddha

12-20-2002, 05:22 PM

water -- you're as blind as royal. cripes, i was backing both of you guys, saying both flavors of schools had their merits.

sheesh. try to agree with anyone and they turn on you. hosers indeed. :(

scotty -- actually, it's not the brick they're after, it's the mortar. :eek:

Royal Dragon

12-20-2002, 05:33 PM

rubthebuddha,
My last post was meant in the most affectionate and sarcastic sillyness I could possibly muster. Go back, and re read it useing the voice of Jerry Sinefield, and you will get the tone better. I changed the Smilies around, maybe it will work better that way?

Water Dragon,
Hmmm, seems like we are building some tension?? It's not that I am intentionally "Talking Sh1t" as you put it, I just get ****.ed when these MMA guys trash traditional Kung Fu, when they haven't seen it, that's all.

Assuming my plans go through (Just found out we are delayed another 6 months), I will be able to provide a training ground for Traditional Kung Fu players to really work and cultivate thier skills. Just because I'm useing the main stream "soccer mom" types to finance it is no reason to be mad at me, it's either that, or nothing. Do you honestly think they will just let me use that facility as I wish if I don't generate a large sume of cash for them?? Come on, get real will ya??

Let me ask you, what is better?? A main stream course supporting traditional practice behind the scenes, or no Kung Fu at all??

Question, Did you enjoy the seminar?? Do you even know what made that possible?? I'll tell you, it is the prospect of a large scale main stream Kung Fu program that will generate large profits not only for me, but for the gym we held it at (Especially them). It is those PROFITS that are motivating them to build me a studio, and allow me to bring in any personal freind I want, to train for free so long as they are my personal training partners and not me just giving freebies to students they market cold specifically for the program.

Think about the source of your anger here. Ask yourself this, how many places can you go and do hard core traditional Kung Fu for 6 hours strait (or longer once it's up and running) and bring your kid with and just let him run loose in a 33,000 square foot gymnastics "Play land" where you really don't have to worrie about him fpr hours on end wile you indulge yourself to your hearts content??

Did you like that?? Did you have fun?? Did Traditional hard core kung fu prosper that day?? Who made that happen anyway?? Was it you?? No, it wasn't you was it. It was me and my future "Mc Dojo" program that made that posible. If it wasn't for that, you would have been sitting at home watching UFC reruns fantisizing about the seminar that "Should have been" instead of working realworld skills.

You need to re think your position I think. There is much more to the game than you think.

SevenStar

12-20-2002, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

Water Dragon,
Hmmm, seems like we are building some tension?? It's not that I am intentionally "Talking Sh1t" as you put it, I just get ****.ed when these MMA guys trash traditional Kung Fu, when they haven't seen it, that's all.

you know what that's about - that's from you going to that forum and saying that your friend (WD) left bjj in order to train shuai chiao, etc... from what I read of WD's rant back then, you were making it sound like he left bjj because compared to CMA, it's crap.

Assuming my plans go through (Just found out we are delayed another 6 months), I will be able to provide a training ground for Traditional Kung Fu players to really work and cultivate thier skills. Just because I'm useing the main stream "soccer mom" types to finance it is no reason to be mad at me, it's either that, or nothing. Do you honestly think they will just let me use that facility as I wish if I don't generate a large sume of cash for them?? Come on, get real will ya??

Maybe.. Brian's school is operated out of a huge gym also - with only 14 students at a time, he can't be generating that much revenue for them.

Let me ask you, what is better?? A main stream course supporting traditional practice behind the scenes, or no Kung Fu at all??

Depends on who you ask...

Question, Did you enjoy the seminar?? Do you even know what made that possible?? I'll tell you, it is the prospect of a large scale main stream Kung Fu program that will generate large profits not only for me, but for the gym we held it at (Especially them). It is those PROFITS that are motivating them to build me a studio, and allow me to bring in any personal freind I want, to train for free so long as they are my personal training partners and not me just giving freebies to students they market cold specifically for the program.

which means the gym is essentially pimping you for the money you can bring them. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as you are getting to use the gym in return, but once again I refer to Brian...

Did you like that?? Did you have fun?? Did Traditional hard core kung fu prosper that day??

It was a seminar - it would've prospered anywhere, just like it did at Brian's gym the other times

Who made that happen anyway?? Was it you?? No, it wasn't you was it. It was me and my future "Mc Dojo" program that made that posible. If it wasn't for that, you would have been sitting at home watching UFC reruns fantisizing about the seminar that "Should have been" instead of working realworld skills.

I dunno... it coulda happened anywhere. Remember, Brian hosted the previous ones. He couldn't do it this time, so there was a backup plan. If your gym woulda fell through, It would've probably still happened somewhere. That said, it's not you who made it happen, but the person giving the seminar - if he didn't come, there would be no seminar. Heck, if nothing else, it coulda been in MJ's classes, like the private ones, or brian's basement like the second half of the last one.

You need to re think your position I think. There is much more to the game than you think.

From who's perspective? they can train anywhere, and seminars can be held anywhere. A big pretty gym is nice, but is it necessary? no, surely not.

Water Dragon

12-20-2002, 06:35 PM

Ya know, this one time I checked out a white collar boxing class. It was pretty nice. Everyone came in, did the work out, learned to punch, worked on the bag, shadowboxed, jumped rope, etc. They basically did the whole workout minus the sparring. I thought it was great. People got the health benefits, learned how to throw a proper punch, but didn't have to get beat up. It seemed like everyone walked away tired but happy. They had a lot of people there too.

Oh yeah, the seminar happened because of the school and the love of the art. What you did for us was nice, and it was appreciated. Everyone looks very much forward to using the facilities again. I as well. But Sev is correct. We don't NEED a nice facility. All we really need is the Groin Ripper and some bodies to throw around. Don't forget that. The majority of that weekend occured in a living room on the South Side on MJ's old gray mat. A little went on out in the backyard in the cold. I've done seminars out in the park where you've worked with us. And in basements. As long as my Peoples are there, that's all I need.

Water Dragon

12-20-2002, 06:37 PM

Sev and RD,
This doesn't really have anything at all to do with the Dino incident. It ended up being a bad judgement call. That **** has been squashed. As far as I'm concerned, this is still a debate on training methodologies. No more, no less

Royal Dragon

12-20-2002, 07:02 PM

"you know what that's about - that's from you going to that forum and saying that your friend (WD) left bjj in order to train shuai chiao, etc... from what I read of WD's rant back then, you were making it sound like he left bjj because compared to CMA, it's crap."

Reply]
Yeah, I flubbed up with that one. I was the a.ss 100% on that one. I deserve some back lash.

"Maybe.. Brian's school is operated out of a huge gym also - with only 14 students at a time, he can't be generating that much revenue for them."

Reply] Different oppertunity, different situation. what I have is a once and a lifetime oppertunity to have a studio built FOR me, and all the marketing done FOR me. All I have to do is show up in a spiffy uniform and teach my Shaolin system. I can't walk away from this one, it's too good. I have to make it happen.

Let me ask you, what is better?? A main stream course supporting traditional practice behind the scenes, or no Kung Fu at all??

Seven Star said in reply "Depends on who you ask..."

Reply]
I say good Kung Fu is better than no Kung Fu, and if I expose the main stream to it in the process, and maybe even get some of them involved, that's even better.

"which means the gym is essentially pimping you for the money you can bring them. That's not necessarily a bad thing, as you are getting to use the gym in return, but once again I refer to Brian..."

Reply]
Like I said, different people have different oppertunities, this is mine. If it fails, i'm going to start a "Kung Fu conditioning" program at the local park dist, and expand my taiji program. This provides me with a free place to train, and free training partners after class as well. Then, I don't have to worry about catering as the park dist will keep the program open so long as there is at least 3-4 students. Of course I will still have to have a job myself, and I loose the oppertunity to get 3-6 hours a day of personal training time in, but I'll have to make do.

See, I have the oppertunity to live the dream here. I can develop absolutly SPECTACULAR Kung Fu for myself as well as make a living out of it, as well as promote the Traditional end of it all at the same time AND enjoy a nomal family life, as in not sacrifiece my relationships due to always training or working. It would be stupid NOT to do it.

Nothing but good can come from this on all fronts, I don't understand why certian people are against this. It's not like the main stream students will be going to another quality school, and I'm taking them away from it by telling lies (Ala Temple Kung Fu). I'm giving them a program that they can handle, and suites thier needs. If I tried to run a school the way some here "Think" I should, I'd have 14 students like Brian, a dy job, no time for my family and the goals will not be accomplished.

Don't you think introducing the mainstream to good Kung Fu through a program they can handle is good? Or is it better to let them go do "Sport" Karate at the only 3 competing schools near by?

I just don't understand why some see this as a bad thing. I makes no sense to me.

"I dunno... it coulda happened anywhere. Remember, Brian hosted the previous ones. He couldn't do it this time, so there was a backup plan. If your gym woulda fell through, It would've probably still happened somewhere. That said, it's not you who made it happen, but the person giving the seminar - if he didn't come, there would be no seminar. Heck, if nothing else, it coulda been in MJ's classes, like the private ones, or brian's basement like the second half of the last one. "

Reply]
See, I did something good here, and noone recognises it. when I point it out, and show factually that what i'm doing has ALREADY generated some good for Kung Fu, you act like it's no big deal.

And yes, without Joe, this never would have happened. This was a team effort. If anyone player hadn't done thier part, it would have fallen through (and almost did infact, we can thank Terri for the save)

I said "You need to re think your position I think. There is much more to the game than you think. "

To which you replyed "From who's perspective? they can train anywhere, and seminars can be held anywhere. A big pretty gym is nice, but is it necessary? no, surely not."

Reply]
You know, this is just getting dumb. Have you ever pulled something like this off on a "ONE week" notice?? I don't think so. Joe needed help, and I came through for him, it was no easy task (although I made it look that way). I had to take a day off of work to have a meeting with the club director, loosing a days pay to make this happen. Even if I had set it up from the start, there would have been quite a bit of work so far as marketing and facilitating the deal.

Also, Setting up a school and making it WORK is no easy task either. Most schools fail because they think like you do, and fail to take the real world into consideration. The Kung Fu fantasy will not keep a school open, or profitable. If it could Brian would not need a job (since you keep bringing him up).

Royal Dragon

12-20-2002, 07:19 PM

Water Dragon,

Yes, you are right. Infact MOST of my Kung Fu experiances have been just a few guys in a park, or basement, nothing more. this includes solo form work in deep snow and -10 degrees.

BUT, that does not promote Kung Fu to anyone outside of the truly obsessed. To promote the art itself, you have to communicate with the masses on a level they can understand.

What we do for fun would turn a newbie, or normal person away from the arts all together because it is viewd as weird, obsessive and just plain strange.

Think about it, do normal people see a sappling and think hitting thier forearms against it would be fun??? We do.

If we *Don't* step down to thier level when we teach, they will just be turned off, and instead of promoting Kung Fu, we will be turning people away from it because they will view us as bizzar.

Teachers that can go and teach hard core right off, generally attract students who have been originally introduced to the arts by a mainstream Mc Dojo type program, often similar to the Kid's Karate programs like the one I taught for Champion Youth Outreach, or a point sparring Tae Kwon Do .

What I aim to do, is put both the Mainstream, and Traditonal hard core under one roof. I'm just not quite ready to teach the hard core aspect yet (that's where Brian will come in if I get someone who needs that level), but the oppertunity is NOW, and it will never come again so easily, so I must take it or it will pass wasted.

What is so wrong with that?

Water Dragon

12-20-2002, 07:29 PM

Man RD, you know, you're a cool guy, and I like you a lot. But **** are you full of yourself.

Royal Dragon

12-20-2002, 07:38 PM

"Man RD, you know, you're a cool guy, and I like you a lot. But **** are you full of yourself."

Reply]
Not really, I'm more of a loud mouthed, opinionated dago.

I'm also a *knowitall* when I think i'm right about something. This is one of those times.

Royal Dragon

12-20-2002, 07:46 PM

You know WD, I just re read my post, and I don't see the "full of myself" in there at all.

I'm an experianced teacher, and I am calling it like I see it from 8 to 9 years of teaching Kung fu to both adults, and kids.

I have proven my position to myself over, and over, and over again.

Confidence based on real world experiance, especially as much as mine, is not being "Full of myself", it's knowing what I'm talking about.

SevenStar

12-20-2002, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Yeah, I flubbed up with that one. I was the a.ss 100% on that one. I deserve some back lash.

Things happen.

Reply] Different oppertunity, different situation. what I have is a once and a lifetime oppertunity to have a studio built FOR me, and all the marketing done FOR me. All I have to do is show up in a spiffy uniform and teach my Shaolin system. I can't walk away from this one, it's too good. I have to make it happen.

I'm not saying walk away. That would indeed be dumb. All I'm debating is your original post about mainstreaming.

See, I have the oppertunity to live the dream here. I can develop absolutly SPECTACULAR Kung Fu for myself as well as make a living out of it, as well as promote the Traditional end of it all at the same time AND enjoy a nomal family life, as in not sacrifiece my relationships due to always training or working. It would be stupid NOT to do it.

Like I said, I'm not saying DON'T do it...

I'd have 14 students like Brian

Remember, that's by choice

Don't you think introducing the mainstream to good Kung Fu through a program they can handle is good? Or is it better to let them go do "Sport" Karate at the only 3 competing schools near by?

I just don't understand why some see this as a bad thing. I makes no sense to me.

I actually think it's an excellent idea. I just don't see the need to compromise the training for it. look at bjj.

Reply]
See, I did something good here, and noone recognises it. when I point it out, and show factually that what i'm doing has ALREADY generated some good for Kung Fu, you act like it's no big deal.

That's not at all how I'm acting. It has been recognized, and like WD said , it was appreciated. BUT, you are making it sound like you were the sole reason it happened, which simply isn't true. Same way they happened previously, it would've happened again.

You know, this is just getting dumb. Have you ever pulled something like this off on a "ONE week" notice?? I don't think so.

Actually, yes. Never for MA, but for other functions. And in some cases, less than a week's notice.

Also, Setting up a school and making it WORK is no easy task either. Most schools fail because they think like you do, and fail to take the real world into consideration. The Kung Fu fantasy will not keep a school open, or profitable. If it could Brian would not need a job (since you keep bringing him up).

Like I said, Brian probably does that because he wants to. I know what his job is, and I'd love it too.

I agree with you, that is likely the main reason they fail. However, sport fighting tends to attract the hard training type, and that would allow a successful school AND maintain a higher training standard without losing students, which is the direction I would take. bjj, judo and shuai chiao...

Royal Dragon

12-20-2002, 08:48 PM

"That's not at all how I'm acting. It has been recognized, and like WD said , it was appreciated. BUT, you are making it sound like you were the sole reason it happened, which simply isn't true. "

Reply]
No, I gave credit where it was due. I don't mean it as a "I want all the credit" kind of thing, I'm just pointing out that it's not as easy as you guys are making it out to be, that's all.

Making a hard core school is MUCH harder than running a mainstream porgram. PLUS, what they want IS a main stream program with high volume. You just don't see MMA gyms with 200-300 students (unless yo have a UFC title or something), but you DO see main stream cubs with that many students. I am going to be expected to retain at least 100 students at an absolute minimum, probably more like 150-200. Terri's Kempo school has 185 students, and they start easy, and work thier way up to the hard core. They never get into the intense forms training like a Kung Fu school, but they do fight pretty hard by Black belt.

It's all about progression, and making sure you are teaching the student at thier own level. Most people you have to baby for a long time and give them alot of variety, especially if you want to maintain high volume, and even then only the few really become hard core students.

Someone who has the "Hard core" disposition will just rise through the ranks faster. All I have to do to give them traditional Kung Fu is just tell them to concentrait on thier basics, fundementals, and pick one or two forms from the curriculem and really master them as opposed to just collecting them (as in mastering the fighting aplications of the set, not just reciteing it really good). It's not that hard of a transition. I set the program up for the transition to be easy. If they listen to what I say, they will have it by default.

I don't see what the big deal is. I can serve both markets. If I get someone who needs an "Elite" level coach, I'll send them to Brian, or better yet, Choi. Everyone else I can handle myself.

SevenStar

12-20-2002, 08:53 PM

"Have you ever pulled something like this off on a "ONE week" notice?? I don't think so. Joe needed help, and I came through for him, it was no easy task (although I made it look that way). I had to take a day off of work to have a meeting with the club director, loosing a days pay to make this happen. Even if I had set it up from the start, there would have been quite a bit of work so far as marketing and facilitating the deal."

"See, I did something good here, and noone recognises it. when I point it out, and show factually that what i'm doing has ALREADY generated some good for Kung Fu, you act like it's no big deal."

"Who made that happen anyway?? Was it you?? No, it wasn't you was it. It was me and my future "Mc Dojo" program that made that posible. If it wasn't for that, you would have been sitting at home watching UFC reruns fantisizing about the seminar that "Should have been" instead of working realworld skills."

"You need to re think your position I think. There is much more to the game than you think. "

Those are some of the "full of yourself" instances...

Royal Dragon

12-20-2002, 09:07 PM

I was trying to make a point.

The premis is that what I'm doing is not good for Kung Fu. I'm trying to point out that it has already been good for Kung Fu, and the school is not even open yet (and probaby won't be for another 6 months).

The other premis is that hosting the seminar on such short notice was no big deal, and it wold have happend anyway reguardless of my input. And maybe so, but I think you dismissed me to quickly.

See:
"I dunno... it coulda happened anywhere. Remember, Brian hosted the previous ones. He couldn't do it this time, so there was a backup plan. If your gym woulda fell through, It would've probably still happened somewhere. That said, it's not you who made it happen, but the person giving the seminar - if he didn't come, there would be no seminar. Heck, if nothing else, it coulda been in MJ's classes, like the private ones, or brian's basement like the second half of the last one. "

If I'm full of myself, then I'm full of myself.

This is getting really stupid now. How about this, we agree to disagree, I'll work on my goals, you work on yours, and we all just move on...................................

SevenStar

12-20-2002, 09:19 PM

It's been stupid for several pages now. obviously, we've already agreed to disagree, but I've got KPS(TM) (KFO posting syndrome) - If you post it and I disagree, I will reply.

I agree though, let's move on.

P.S. RTB was right - you're a hoser :)

Royal Dragon

12-21-2002, 07:46 AM

LOL!! at the KFO posting syndrom!!! I get bad cases of that quite often myself :D

Oso

12-21-2002, 10:12 AM

R.I.P

:)

SevenStar

12-21-2002, 11:18 AM

That'll teach you not to make threads about traditional training on the training forum! :)

Oso

12-21-2002, 04:04 PM

yes...but, all things considered it was certainly one of the most
civil disagreements KFO has seen.

except for the 'hoser' bit...

...hoser

:D

rubthebuddha

12-22-2002, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by SevenStar
P.S. RTB was right - you're a hoser :)

sevenstar, why was there any question?

silly hoser. ;)

SevenStar

12-22-2002, 07:29 PM

Hey, that's right - It was a civil disagreement!! Not bad for a bunch of hosers, eh?

Daredevil

12-22-2002, 08:22 PM

I'm one of the guys that thinks watering down is the bane of martial arts these days. If there is a reason for the sad state of martial arts, this is it. People are lax enough by themselves, so teachers should absolutely not promote that kinda behaviour.

If you've proven yourself, teach how you were taught (not saying you can't develop the art, but that's entirely different from doing a McDojo). If you haven't proven yourself, you really shouldn't be teaching.

Also, why promote the art to a wider audience if in doing so you pervert the whole art into something else? Promoting and widening the appeal of the art shouldn't be a goal in itself, but producing capable practicioners of the art should. This is how modern wushu has deterioted. People should draw the line here -- in their own training -- and train hardcore (no, you can't go from beginner to hardcore in one class, but you can continually work towards it).

I'm also a bit leery on the whole making more money aspect. Sure, you should get by with what you do, but I trust that if you're good enough and true enough to what you do, you will get by. I deeply respect my teacher for his attitude : he has a true love of the arts and doesn't do martial arts out of a hope to gain monetary wealth. He aims to keep it small and real. That whole making money thing is just so American. ;)

Maybe I shouldn't have stirred this, but I wanted to pipe in since this has been a discussion with only a few main participants so far. Just voicing opinions.

Keep up the training!

Oso

12-22-2002, 08:52 PM

dear god, no.............

rubthebuddha

12-23-2002, 12:57 AM

worried about something? :confused:

Oso

12-23-2002, 05:57 AM

just a rehash...

Sorry, Daredevil. I guess if you were just casting your vote
then I apologize. But, you didn't really present a new argument.

Matt

SevenStar

12-23-2002, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
worried about something? :confused:

LOL! He thought the argument was gonna start again. I think DD is just voicing his oppinion - Good oppinion, might I add ;)

Oso

12-23-2002, 03:13 PM

It was a good opinion. Didn't counter the opinion at all.
Just that it was a little done, that's all.
I was just seriously glad to see two opinions argued to a point
of truce w/o all the crap that can go on here at KFO.

Royal Dragon

12-23-2002, 09:50 PM

The gym that "Was" going to build my studio just imploded from the inside.

Last year they moved from Addison to Westmont. About 6 months after, they fired one of thier best coaches, and replaced her with two "so so" "Young", inexperianced coaches for half the original coache's salary. She went and got a loan, and opened up her own gym in the same location that the old gym just moved out of, in Addison.

More and more and more BS of this nature continued (The seminar incedent was nothing compared to what was going on in the gymnastics program) until today, when the two TOP coaches just up and quit with no notice. They are now working for more $$ at the new gym opened at the old location by the coach that was fired 6 months ago.

Well, the issue is those two coaches are literally some of the BEST gymnastics coaches in the nation. All of the gymnasts at that gym are either olympic bound, or national team bound, and WILL NOT TRAIN under beginners. My daughter included.

It appears at least 2/3's of the gym will follow the two coaches that just quit today, including my daughter. No one is going to pay top dollar for beginner coaches that are still wet behind the ears. Especially since the top gymnastic coaches in the Midwest if not the Nation are close by, and cheaper AND in the location of the old gym they all are used to training at anyway.

If the Westmont gym can survive the student loss, it will ONLY be because they move to a smaller location. Which means my studio will not be built due to lack of space as well a finances.

Having just moved from Adisson and having just opened that new huge location, they are struggling to pay the rent as it is. Loosing 2/3's of the student body is going to sink them for sure.

I already signed my daughter up at the new gym yesterday because I was "in the know", and I knew the two coaches were going to quit a few days ahead of time.

I already discussed doing Shui Chiao seminars at the new gym, and was offered a key for the next event. The owner heard about the "incedent" we had, and was outraged tht they did that to me.

It's back to running my Kid's Kung Fu and Tai Chi for health programs in park dists, elementary schools, and health clubs again. So much for making a living teaching the mainstream.

Oh well, I guess it was too easy to be true from the begining. :(

Oso

12-24-2002, 05:32 AM

RD,
Sorry to hear that, man. At least you were able to keep your
daughters training good.

talk to you soon,

Matt

Royal Dragon

12-24-2002, 10:04 AM

I supose there is always a "Small" chance it may workout, but my daughter is there right now for early morning training and the team christmas party, and she's telling everyone where the coaches are working. I can't tell her to keep her mouth shut or anything becaus these girls are like sisters to her, shes been training with them every free moment since she was 3. Besides, that would be wrong. There is too much at stake for all of them. If they don't follow her they will all drop down to mediocer due to poor coaching in less than a year.

The two coaches that quit are responsible for that gym CONSISTANTLY putting gymnasts on the medal stand every competeion.

My daughter has never failed to place in the top ten on at least on event, and usually in the top 6-7 in at least two for as long as she has been competing. Her entire team is like that, and it was not uncommon to see every team memeber come home from meets with top 10 placements in one or more events. All the other gyms hate us.

I was in the stands one time when some girls from another team sitting near me were literally in a state of distress at the prospect of having to comete against us. I actually felt bad becaue they KNEW they had no chance for a medal as long as we were competing at that meet. My daughter took 2 Golds a Silver and a Bronz that day and I think she wsa second in the all around, and her teammate took most of the other spots. I changed seats because I didn't want my daughter celebrating right next to them after seeing that.

We have literallly BOXES of medals. Trophys and ribbons from her competitions going all the way back to when she wa 3 years old. She has never known a loss, literally. She goes in expecting to win a gold, and if she takes a Bronze or only places in the top ten she feels like she failed or something. I have no choice but ot follow the coach that got her that level of skill. She has too much talent to be trained by a beginner newbie in-experianced coach.

This whole situation is WHY I set it up to pass special talent off to Brian in the first place. Some people need more experiancd teachers, and all I have ever taught is the main stream. I'm really good at serving thier needs, but I need some more time teaching before I could handle a martial artists with skill and talent akin to my daughter's gymnastics abilities.

The other issue, is if I stay, I will be paying the big bucks ($240 a month) for Experianced, proven, winning coaches, and just getting newbies. At the new gym, the prices are lower to draw anybody in because the new gym does not have an established rep yet, so my daughter is going to be getting to of the nations best gymnastic coaches for the price of a regular club coach (Till they build the rep anyway) I have no chioce in the matter now. My school can't even be a thought in a situation like this.

The fact that all these girls are literall "Family" to one another plays an important par too. Non one wants to brak them up, it would be like seperating two blood sisters because of a divorce or something. The parents are all like anuts uncles and grandparents to thses kids as well. The life of an olympic bound gymnast is definately not "normal", it's more like Jackie Chan and the way he grew up in the Bejing opera than a normal American child hood. My daughter does not even have normal freinds, ALL her freinds, especially her close ones are gymnasts from her team. The same pretty much goes for the rest of the girls on that team. The chances of any of them staying when thier Coach has left would be like the chances two parents moving out of their apartment for a brand new house and the kids staying behind to be raised by the land lord. It just ain't going to happen.

If the old gym survives, it will be a miracle, and then only if they go down to a really small location. I just heard rummur that the owner has a back up plan to bring his Elite team (The only ones who would probably not follow the two that quit) to another gym if something like this happenes, so he's see this comming for quite a wile as I heard this rummur 6 months ago.

On a positive note though, I was looking at a small health and fitness center to work out at myself, and they may be interested in me teaching a Taiji for health class for them, so there is a possiblity to build up slowly that way.