The worse performance of ITF TKD Forms ever.

[rogue]

This is ugly (http://whitecollarboxing.com/flash/kataforms.htm)

I've never seen these perfomed with less grace, less balance, less power and less technique than shown in these videos.

Enjoy

[joedoe]

As I suspected - TKD sux :D

Seriously though, is TKD supposed to be that stiff?

[rogue]

Joe, the patterns aren't supposed to be done anything like they demo'd. In my school they are done smooth with power, snap and intent. Officially according to the ITF they should be done with a sine wave motion, which I don't like. But nothing should ever be done looking like those vids.

[rubthebuddha]

i always thought there was a linear spectrum that ran between fluid and snappy. now i'm struggling to find a spot on that line to put "crap."

rogue, it's now up to you to find us some good links, because, even though i did tkd for years, those videos left a bad taste in my mouth. i know there's better tkd out there. can you help?

[SevenStar]

Rogue, does the order the forms are done differ from school to school? And are there dialectual differences in different parts of Korea? When I learned those, they were chon-ji, dan gun and do san, not chungee tangoon and toesan. Chon-ji was a white belt form and dan gun and do san were yellow belt.

[SevenStar]

most of those spellings are different - we called them hwa rang, Won Hyo and tae gae, if I remember right

[Stranger]

Officially according to the ITF they should be done with a sine wave motion, which I don't like

Can you explain this a little more?

[Sho]

But I'm sure they are all pronounced the same way. I mean "chun-ji" is the same as "chon gee" as it is also some times spellt as "chang ji". It's just the matter of an individual's way of spelling - similar to what it is with southern kungfu terminology (biu ji, biu jee, biu gee or Choy Lay Fut, Choy Lei Fat, Choy Lee Fut, etc).

[dezhen2001]

its interesting how similar the kata they have is to the shotokan i used to study... Basai is a prime example, but VERY differently done! :p

romanization from any language:- chinese, korean, japanese, even arabic is VERY difficult to do and open to a little interpretation lol...

sho: u missed out 'biu tze' and 'choi li fat' :D

dawood

[rogue]

rubthebuddha, why not just task me with something just a little harder?:D

David, original recipe TKD is a knockoff of Shotokan with possibly some other arts tossed in. So the Chonji set mirrors the same techniques as the Heian kata and several others. My school does Enpi, Basai and the three tekki kata and are performed the same way as they are in Shotokan.

Stranger, carbonecho has vids on what the sine wave looks like but they're down for renovations. Here are a couple of articles on what it looks like. The sine wave motions was introduced sometime in the 70's or 80's as a replacement for generating power from the hips. It has never really caught on across ITF schools and I personally really don't see how it'd work. My school uses mostly the hips to generate power.

http://www.taekwondo.freeserve.co.uk/technical_explanations/explanation_of_sine_wave.htm
http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Poll1.html
http://www.beckmartialarts.com/ctkdfaq.html

[PHILBERT]

1.) I swear some of those look like dance tryout for the next Britney Spears or 'N Sync video.

2.) That school is in my area...

[rubthebuddha]

well, philbert, looks like you're the one nominated to torch it.

[TkdWarrior]

it's different than ITF .
in white belt we hav two small forms
sajjojurigee(4 direction punch)
sajjomakgi(4 direction block)
in Yellow stripe
there is Chon Ji
yellow: dan gun
green stripe :do-san
green:won hyo...
it goes like this...
ITF forms look much beautiful n powerfull all the time...
TKD is mis mash of Shotakan, taek kyon n kyon bup(most of kickin style hav influence from these two, Late general learned it when he was young n i guess before shotakan)
Rogue<My school uses mostly the hips to generate power. >
yup it's for mostly beginners n beginner intermediates but as we advanced we learnt to use whole body to generate power?
i don't think sine wave is replacement for generating power(thru hip) it's actually adds up with hip power

from wat i understand sine wave is like this ~ going up n down. while generating power the motion is going down for good rooting which helps in increasing power. it can be done even in parallel stance so u can guess it's not necessary with motion, while moving whole body moves as a whole(ie legs n hands moving in tandom)...it's something like taiji concept of using whole body.
holy sh!Te i just watched chon ji n almost puked it...it was the worst demo of TKD Forms...wonder how they'll generate power from those motions...
-TkdWarrior-

[dezhen2001]

rogue: would be interesting to compare kata applications from your style with shotokan. maybe ur skill holds the traditional shotokan kata bunkai which is lost generally nowadays? :)

dawood

[rogue]

Dawood, that's one of the things I do. I've used shotokan books by Nakayama, Schmeisser and even Dillman(blah). The problem is many of the Chon Ji kata are reorganized Shotokan kata of which many were changed Okinawan kata, not to mention the variations of each arts kata which further muddy the waters. So some of the applications may have been dropped or hidden to make the kata look a certain way in Shotokan and then totally lost with the TKD changes. So while it's a good starting place I still have to refer to other sources, improvise some, and change some details. And I always keep in mind that some moves don't have a direct combat application that they serve to develope balance or some other attribute. Anyways I've yet to see many good bunkai for shotokan or TKD kata. Most are just plain funny.

Here's a short article that changed me from looking for the applications in kata, to using kata to find applications (http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/kata/12_applications.html)

[PHILBERT]

Ok here is my opinion...

The first few clips of the women resembles dance tryouts to 'N Sync or Britney Spears. The others of the men are poorly executed because 2 men will do the move then a second later the third. In one of the clips the camera shifts off the man who is doing all the moves 1-2 seconds behind the others to hide how crappy he is.

[PHILBERT]

http://whitecollarboxing.com/Video/Kata/ChulgislowWeb.mpg
In this one, I expect Britney Spears or Justin Timberlake to appear and start "singing".

http://whitecollarboxing.com/Video/Kata/BasaiWeb.MPG
Same here, except whats wrong with the sound?

[babooon87]

reminds me of the time I was doing TKD, but 5 times worst!!!:D

[Royal Dragon]

You know, I hate to say it but those vids look pretty much like all the Tae Kwon Do I have ever seen my whole life. In fact that is why I do Kung Fu.

I don't know, but maybe Tae Kwon Do in Chicago is really bad or something, or maybe I have only been to "low" level tournaments, but those vids really represent what I have seen so far.

Except for one guy I used to know. He was the manager of the Youth outreach program I once taught for. He was really good. BUT (I repeat BUT) he also did Judo, and Sheeto(sp?) Kan Karate as well, so I always thought his power came from that.

If there is something better, someone post a clip so I can see it.

[guohuen]

There is good TKD. That wasn't it. That looked like a cattlecall for a Janet vid.

[rogue]

The others of the men are poorly executed because 2 men will do the move then a second later the third. Sorry Phil but even alone those guys are just sloppy.

C'mon Royal you really didn't hate to say that!:p

I have videos of my schools master and his senior student. Now if I could just figure out how to get the tape onto my hard drive.

[TkdWarrior]

video? rogue u can get it in CD n copy n paste it from there in any free web space..
ok i'll give u a much better link for TKD forms
http://users.ev1.net/~D.McHenry/Forms/
i hav downloaded Chonji Tul from this site n noticed that black belt is intentionally trying to get the sine wave(i do that too) but the way my teacher moves it doenst look like that...
-TkdWarrior-

[TkdWarrior]

shoot he's 4th dan
my teacher is 4th dan too but his forms looks amazingly beautiful n powerful

-TkdWarrior-

[rogue]

Thanks for the sine wave vids TKDW. I'm an anti-sine wave person, if I don't move that way in a fight I won't move that way during kata. I wonder if any of the CMA have that motion?

BTW do you or anybody else here know what the middle part of toi gye (the stamping) is supposed to do?

[TkdWarrior]

i was MTist before coming into TKD my mind wants to generate power by sine wave but body refuses..it's hard to change
BTW i don't know Toi goe
-TkdWarrior-

[joedoe]

Gotta say I don't lkike the bounciness in the sine-wave movements. Seems wrong to me.

[Kristoffer]

they look weird. we can't bash styles coz Gene said so .... soooooo yeah cool

[rubthebuddha]

we can't bash styles, but we can bash concepts :p

i don't like that bounciness either, and i don't see any benefit to it. when i did tkd, i was taught to take advantage of momentum, particularly when it was generated by turns and rotations. this is even more pronounced in muay thai, especially in roundkicks, when you swing your whole leg around. but the bouncing up and down between moves and turns seemed like a way to dissipate/lose momentum and, thus, lose power. it also seems to make the transition from spot to spot less stable.

i dunno. i don't understand the sine wave stuff at all, but from concept perspective, it seems more negative than anything.

my 2¢.

besides, rogue is the end-all, be-all of tkd, so if he doesn't like it, then it's wrong.

[Kristoffer]

What you just wrote... all I see is: "it sucks"
Gene will kill you :D

[TkdWarrior]

<What you just wrote... all I see is: "it sucks">
lol it's quite true
well i come to know that the person doing TKD tul is not Master Mac but one of his student...but still he is like black belt(there's no excuse for him)..i hav seen better performance than that
huh..
tho i looked like i m doing it :D...
-TkdWarrior-