What to look for in a good school

[Yung Apprentice]

I've visited a couple schools. But I can't tell if they are a good school or not. What kind of things should I look for while watching a class, to see if it's a good school. What kind of things should I look for if it's a bad school? (please be serious)

[neptunesfall]

first and foremost, watch the instructors.
spend a few minutes watching his/her feet during drills. see if their stepping seems weak, hesitant or their constantly adjusting their feet.
then watch his/her hand work. see if their hand movements seem weak or hesitant. watch to see if they have to look down at their body to adjust their posture etc.
aside from that, pay attention to the behavior of the class and how the instructor treats them.

[infinet]

I followed this advice i got from http://www.shaolin.com

and it helped alot :D

Prepare a written list of questions you will ask of each school during your phone interviews. Among the important questions will be:

What style or styles will be taught ("Shaolin" is a school, not a style; it would be like calling Harvard to find out about psychology courses and being told they taught "college"). We have called dozens of schools that advertised "kung fu" only to be told, "no, we just do Tae Kwan Do-it's all the same"! It is NOT all the same, so don't fall for a con. Styles should be specific-Shantung Black Tiger, Shaolin Southern Tiger, Hung-Gar Tiger-Crane are examples of "Tiger" that are quite different from each other AND are all bona fide Shaolin styles. If someone tells you simply "tiger" and refuses to provide specifics about source, original temple, or history, excuse yourself with a simple "my liver pate is burning" and hang up. Among Shaolin styles there is one notable exception: Snake style is simply snake, be it from northern or southern roots. Probably one of those good idea styles no one had the heart to change...
Who does the actual instruction? Will you be taught by Sifu Bigname, or a sixth-month student who has trouble knotting his sash? Being taught in a famous school, even occasionally seeing the BIG MAN, is not the same as learning from him. Universities are in hot water today because the famous and Nobel-laureates they advertise as professors never or rarely grace a classroom. So, too, in kung fu. If you are to be taught by another student SOME of the time, that is fine, and traditional. However, senior people are needed for most basic instruction, because their experience is the best guarantee that you will learn properly with a minimum chance of getting hurt. Remember, your time AND money are your payment for learning the art - make sure both are adequately addressed by the school.
What is the course emphasis (sparring, self-defense, forms?) and which approach(es) will you favor? Many top instructors have experimented by training students solely in sparring or forms, with the results in sparring after six months almost completely favoring the forms people. Forms teach precision, and, sadly, you cannot learn Shaolin without forms (yes, Jeet Kune Do is a formless kung fu, but one aimed at people with some experience of basic martial arts; it is also not a Shaolin art, which is the subject of this report). If you spent the first year doing horse stances, one form, and learned a few rolls and breakfalls, you would be doing very well indeed. It is an old Shaolin adage that a master is one who, after studying a thousand techniques, finds three he can use at any time, and to perfection. Forms are the encyclopedia of styles from which these techniques are discovered.
What can you reasonably expect to be able to do after three months at the school? If someone says you'll learn three stances, have terribly sore thighs, and will be able to throw a fist without breaking your own fingers, you have a good prospect. If they tell you that you'll be ready for your first tournament and start helping with the teaching load, tell them your malpractice insurance isn't paid up and call another school!
Is competition sparring a requirement for advancement? Competitiveness is not a part of traditional Shaolin-your only competition is yourself. While you may be required to spar with fellow classmates (virtually universal), competitive sparring is something most Shaolin masters find counterproductive.

Other questions you should ask (if you get past the first five) are the same you would ask a potential employer or university:

What is the attrition rate
By what criteria will you be evaluated for promotion
What happens if you must miss a session (not to be a habit-but genuine sick days or emergencies happen. Must you pay for lost time, is there make-up time??)
If more than one style is offered, what must you do to be allowed to transfer (e.g., from Shantung tiger to Southern Dragon)?

Things that you should NOT accept from any martial arts school: physical or psychological abuse (does class sound like it's being run by a Marine Corps drill instructor? Are students physically punished or humiliated for minor "infractions"?). Shaolin practitioners come from a priestly background that avoided an Inquisition phase, so do not expect or accept any physical harm or public humiliation. Do not accept a long- term contract (three months is acceptable; one year isn't), because you do not know if your interest will survive, or if the school will survive. Besides, you can use the bank interest as much as the school can! Do not sign a contract with a rank-related deadline (implied or specified)-you will earn a rank in the time it takes, and you cannot pay a reputable instructor to race you up the ranks. Hopefully, you would not want such a worthless rank...

Do not sell the farm or liver pate concession to pack up, move to Honan and study in China. The fact is that most of the top Shaolin practitioners left China by 1930, heading to the U.S., Canada, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Malaysia, where they have taught students and a new generation of masters. If you talk to a school representative who satisfactorily answers your questions, make an appointment to visit the school and possibly see a beginning and advanced class. The beginner's because that is where you will spend the next few months if you join; the advanced so you can see if that is how you want to look after a few years. Students are the only real advertising for teachers. Great coaches are rarely excellent former players, so judge the teachers by their products: the students they turn out.

Ask questions and use your judgment. If you don't like an instructor, you won't be able to learn much from him no matter his rank.

[Ray Pina]

Without a background, truth be told, its hard to tell.

When I met my master, I didn't ask him a single question about style or lineage or technique. I just wanted to know when I could start. I was fortunate that I knew someone that trained with him and gave a GREAT referral and I also crossed hands with a one-time student of his. After he soundly beat me, I had to ask: what is that? Where did you learn it?

I was lucky.

Going in blind is tough. I suggest checking out at least 5 schools. And if you have to drive a bit to get to one of them so be it. Maybe you won't train there and will only have to make the trek once, but this is research. When you found the one you like out of those five -- go check 5 more to cross reference then decide.

What I look for in a teacher: someone who is a warrior, not a discussor. If they aren't into training, finding what works and testing it, I'm not interested.

Beware the form collector. They'll give you a million reasons why doing forms is a must to get KUNG FU. They never mention how it eats up lots of time while you pay them month after month and they don't really show you a thing.

One thing that may surprise you, I never judge a teacher by his students. I've studied long enough to learn that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink -- it's not the lake's fault.

If there's a class of 20 and there are two or three guys who show the ability to issue power, solid technique and principles, then you know its there.

Good luck, it's not easy.

[BSH]

Infinet:

Great post. It is amazing how few schools are even willing to answer questions these days. There are a few things that were mentioned that I don't think are very important or disagree with.

1) Contract Length: I don't think a 1 year contract is too long. In a reputable school that actually teaches authentic Kung Fu, the first sixth months of training a new student are much more time consuming and expensive. I would prefer to sign a 1 year contract with the knowledge that my training will be better. If I was teaching and had a three month contract on a student, I would be careful not to teach them anything they could abuse, misuse, or sell to other schools. People guard authentic styles any way they can. Many styles have lost some of their reputation because people quit after three months but then claim to teach it and they truly knew little or nothing about the style. They just tarnished that styles reputation. There is good reason to try to make students sign a 1 year contract. Just make sure the contract protects the students as well as the school. My contract protects me from mistreatment from instructors as well as other students and holds me and everyone who signed a contract to high standards of behavior.

2) Watching/sample classes: This is a tough one. The only thing you can get from watching a class is a sense that something is wrong. As you mentioned, any of the mistreatments of students or poor abilities of the instructors are immediate red flags. But, as a student, my classes were always worse when a potential student was participating. I kept thinking that I was paying a lot of money for this stuff and this guy was getting it for free. I also found that the instructors spent more time on the non-student than the students. Based on complaints by myself and other students, my school stopped offering sample classes or letting people watch classes. They care more about their students training than getting potential students through the door. I really value that.

Ask for private training time with an instructor instead.

The other thing about sample classes is that you won't learn anything about what sets a school apart from others. You will learn the very basics which all appear similar across styles from school to school.


My advice is ask lots and lots of questions. You need to find as much about the style as possible. If they won't answer your questions, walk.

One other piece of advice. Have a friend go in at a different time and see if they give you the exact same sales pitch. Most places these days try to run you through their sales pitch and avoid your questions because they don't have the answers. See what happens with your friend.

Finally, don't ever pay for a sample class. You won't learn anything that will help you find out about the school and you will be wasting your money.

[Yung Apprentice]

I was very interested in Hsing-Yi, so I checked this school out. I saw some things I liked, and some I didn't. This school has a sash ranking system, and they were testing when I stopped by to watch a class. The lady was testing for a brown sash, which is one step away from a black sash. Now I can care less about sashes, but she was awarded this sash, and her forms looked really sloppy, with absoultelty no power behind anything, and she passed.

The beginners were seperated from the intermediate class, but in both areas the head sifu never took over the class. He mostly watched, and everynow and then would correct a students posture, or give a demo, or walk off periodically to some back room. The class went like this, they stretched and then did the same two man set the whole class.

I've heard how Hsing-Yi is tough, and looks very hard and strong. This wasn't. I'm going to check out another kung fu school to compare. Based on what I have told you, what would be you initial feeling about this school. Mine was that I wasn't really feeling it.

[BSH]

I'd say go with your gut. Maybe you will change your mind when you have seen other schools.

I find it strange that a promotion/test was open to the public. That's just my opinion.

[Suntzu]

if what they are doing is not what u wanna do… it aint the place for u… over-simplified… yes… but it will save u a lot of $$$ and time…

[David Jamieson]

you want:

a: system

b: method

c: results


you need:

a teacher who can help you understand the first, a teacher who delivers the second and a teacher who ensures the third.

peace

[BSH]

Anyone else have an opinion on what to look for in a school. I believe you need to find out who can get you where you want to be. The only thing that will tell you if a school is right for you is your instinct when you talk to a representative of the school.

The best advice I can think of is to ask to talk to a student of your choosing. Grab someone at random who is a low to medium rank and ask their opinion. They have likely been there long enough to find out about the school, but not long enough to be brainwashed into thinking their school must be the best because they have committed to it.

[Laughing Cow]

Here is my advise.

First do some research into what the art/style is all about. This should also give you pointers to look out for.

Second call them up and verify that Information and see if you can come down for a trial class.

Third go and take the trial class, it should be run like any other class with no special demoes or other funny stuff like that.

Here is how I found my current kwoon.
1.) Asked on the net if anybody knew of a good teacher for style Z.
One guy came back and said that I should contact Sifu X via Web-Site Y.
2.) Checked the Site and found a location close to me tht suited me also pricewise.
3.) Contacted the contact person and arranged to come down and try the lesson.
4.) Went there, welcome was friendly and informal. I was asked what my previous experience was and told how the classes were run. Sifu(Lineage holder) comes twice a month, rest of the time we are taught by 2 Assistant Instructor, etc.
5.) Did the lesson and when I asked when to pay and sign-up was told next week when I start.
6.) We pay fees at beginning of month in cash (sum is small enough).

Our classes are fairly small (20 people) split into different skill levels, clothing anything goes. Very informal, but all the students are sincere and work hard.

Standard forms corrections we get by senior Instructors with Sifu checking and giving us theory and similar lessons. Nothing happens without approval of Sifu.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[Chang Style Novice]

20 in a class is fairly small?!!?

I feel so spoiled - 20 people would never, ever be able to all work out at once at the school I attend.

[Laughing Cow]

CSN.

Those are all the people that train at that location, we only meet once a week.
Rest of the week is solo practice.

But the place is rather spacious as it is a primary school gym hall.
No creature comforts like mats or air-con.

Sifu teaches at multiple locations in the area and doesn't have a fixed kwoon.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[TkdWarrior]

i thougth 10 was crowd?
we do in park...phew
-TkdWarrior

[Laughing Cow]

Of those 20 we are split into smaller groups that work on a specific part of the from or train something specific.

My current group consists of 3 students.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.