question for Yuan Fen

[Vegita]

I'm just curious in the thread about successors, you posted:

"Kung fu systems dont always have the same succession system.
But the common aspects of structure are well known: seniority among REGULAR students depends on when one starts with a sifu. Seniority deserves respect but seniority, knowledge and ability are quite different things."

This popped out at me, because of things happening in my classes, I actually posted a question, wondering how sifus promote/recognize excellence in their students. (there weren't many satisfactory responses)

I was wondering do you promote/recognize excellence in your students? If so, how do u determine it? that is, is it based only on Skill? or Time with you? or other criterias?

The reason I'm wondering is because I do not feel my teacher has been "fair" in his promotion of students, so if I get an understanding of why sifus do what they do, maybe I it will not bother me anymore.

[yuanfen]

I'm just curious in the thread about successors, you posted:

"Kung fu systems dont always have the same succession system.
But the common aspects of structure are well known: seniority among REGULAR students depends on when one starts with a sifu. Seniority deserves respect but seniority, knowledge and ability are quite different things."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------There are various kinds of recognitions depending on "who, what,
when, where":
1. there is the common recognition of seniority based on start date assuming some regularity on attendance.. My sifu when asked
certifies the same in writing (that is I started in 1976). I do the same.
2. Some kung fu traditions have a disciple ceremony. One in wc kung fu has given family names. My sifu's organization does not and I do not.
3. My sifu sometimes has given sashes to indicate level of achievement in form. But some colors have changed...though the
black for his tucson instructors has remained fairly stable. Red is a beginners sash. I still wear red by my choice. I give no sashes.
6. My sifu in annual ceremonies gives out different certificates
for a) certified instructors who have been teaching assistants
at the main school. b) recognized instructors who come regularly
for continuing education c) for completion of instructor training courses. Some certificates are annually renewed.
Most folks who are regulars pretty well know the levels of skill of other regular folks. Of course like all schools there are people who are irregular and come and go and learn little.
7. In annual events I recognize one or two assistant instructors based on combined skill and seniority. Again regular people in the group pretty well know the level of skill of others. A casual observer's judgement can be unreliable depending on their own
their level of knowledge and ego.
8. Sifu Fong is very accessible and I try to be.
Of course there can be ego problems when a student thinks that they are not sufficiently recognized. Given the long years of teaching- the number of such problems have been relatively few.

I trust that I have been clear enough. Sorry for any key skipping.

[reneritchie]

Hey Vegita,

Interesting thread! Traditionally, there was no promotion in the Western sense of ranks or belts. Those who started earlier, regardless of ability, were sihingjay (elder brother/sister teachers) and those that started later were sidaimui (younger brother/sister teachers) (with a few exceptions, such as extreme chronological age differences, where, out of respect, you may call someone 'elder' even if they started after you).

This showed that time in didn't always relate to skill achieved, and moreso, that both seniors and juniors were still "teachers' and each could learn from the other.

In the same tradition, regardless of time spent (who was hingjay or daimui), a sifu could pick a few (those that most impressed, or were simply liked better) for more specific training, becoming 'official' students (sometimes through a 'bai si' or 'bow to teacher' ceremony) and sometimes beyond that, into almost members of the family through 'yup sut dai jee' or 'inner room student'. This was completely up to the sifu, at his/her discretion, and as biased as they chose to make it.

In the modern world, there are belt systems in other arts, which some have adapted into the sashes and the like for Chinese systems, including WCK. Requirements and standards vary to the extreme. There seem to be several factors that motivate 'sash ranking' promotions:

1) Skill. This is like BJJ where if you can 'hang' with purple belts, you'll probably be promoted to purple belts, or like Judo where if you can toss around brown belts, you'll probably be promoted to brown belt. This can blur into competition success in bjj, judo, tkd, etc.

2) Knowledge. This is like some Karate or Kenpo schools where you need to memorize certain forms (often unrelated to how the school spars or fights), self defense techniques, sometimes other-language names (judo fits this too), etc. When you can show knowledge of the material, sometimes combined with physical endurance tests (which also seldom have anything to do with the actual art being practiced), you get promoted (usually in a 'test')

3) Money & Politics. This is like some McDojos where you can pay for a belt rank, or where the teacher thinks you're marketable and will offer you a franchise with rank attached to make you seem legit. 'Guaranteed black belt in 2 year' programs fit into this as well.

4) Loyalty/Honorary. This is where someone may not be skillful or knoweldgeable, but because they put the time in, year after year, they are promoted because of their dedication. Sometimes some people who are very skilled/knowledgeable but have no formal rank are also given honorary belts (Marco Ruas in BJJ for example) due to their accomplishments.

I'm sure there's more, and much of this could be off, but its what came to mind.

RR

[Vegita]

Thank both of you for the interesting replies, I have much to think about.

[rubthebuddha]

aye. good replies. i have heard it before, but it's nice to be reminded of where i should be.

[S.Teebas]

Satisifaction should come from within.

What of your techer tells you your doing well and you honestly know you arn't?

[reneritchie]

There are differences in teaching style. Some teachers praise you on a relative scale. Maybe you aren't doing as well as another student, but are doing better than you were the day before. Some also see praise as a motivator, and believe if they praise a student, the student's moral will rise, they will try harder, and will thereafter achieve.

IMHO, no one method suits every student. As each person is different, each student will respond best to different teaching approaches. Some need constant re-enforcement, some do better with a butt kicking. Some work best on their own, some need the motivation of the group. Some learn by watching, others by hearing, others by doing, and yet others by a combination and the time to digest it all.

That's why, again IMHO, teaching requires its own distinct set of qualifications, beyond just knowing the art, and is a bigger responsibility than many seem to take it for.

RR

[yuanfen]

Vegita had also stated:
The reason I'm wondering is because I do not feel my teacher has been "fair" in his promotion of students, so if I get an understanding of why sifus do what they do, maybe I it will not bother me anymore.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have discussed "promotion" already. But a caring teacher
should note and praise individual improvement. I try to...not just in wing chun. A persevering student can still learn without positive reinforcement- but the latter is sucha good idea.
Vegita- sometimes lack of encouragemnt can be used as a spur by a determined student. Sometimes favored students fall by the wayside.