Unorthodox

[red5angel]

I have been thinking about something lately. I have heard from quite a few people in different arts that it is hard to deal with people who are unorthodox or uncontrolled and that bothers me a little bit. Shouldnt these arts be capable of handling someone out of control? If you can fight someone who knows what they are doing, why is it so hard to fight someone who doesnt?

[apoweyn]

because as a trained fighter within an organized system, you simply have more exposure to the controlled, trained guys than you do to the uncontrolled guys.

we get into patterns based on experience. breaks in that pattern confound us.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Very true Ap, I wonder how many are out there trying to stay away from those patterns?
I know wingchun in general gets you stuck into those patterns through chi sau. If your not careful its too easy to get used to "fighting" this way, and it appears it is happening in other arts as well.

[Cipher]

I agree. If you can fight a skilled person then why not an unskilled person. You fight like you train too.

[apoweyn]

sure. it happens in virtually any style, i'd think. not to every practitioner, necessarily. but it's only natural. you get used to what you see every day. and when you see something different, you get the 'what the?!' reaction.

that's not just martial arts. that's life. hell, i come to work every day in jeans and a t-shirt. it's not very businesslike. but people here are used to it. so on the odd occassion that i show up wearing a tie, i get asked constantly where i'm interviewing. it startles people. they wonder. they worry. and they overreact.

sparring with unorthodox people is a bit like that. except when you get the 'what the?!' effect, you end up getting punched in the head for your trouble.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Cipher
I agree. If you can fight a skilled person then why not an unskilled person. You fight like you train too.


untrained and unskilled aren't the same thing. most of us could beat a genuinely unskilled person. but if a guy goes apesh*t and wails me with a couple of sloppy haymakers, is he really that unskilled?

or is he simply not trained and not behaving in a way i'd recognize coming?

as my idiot ex-boss used to say, 'the truth is in the pudding.' we can talk all we want about whether untrained people should be able to beat us. but it happens regardless.



stuart b.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by apoweyn



untrained and unskilled aren't the same thing. most of us could beat a genuinely unskilled person. but if a guy goes apesh*t and wails me with a couple of sloppy haymakers, is he really that unskilled?

or is he simply not trained and not behaving in a way i'd recognize coming?

as my idiot ex-boss used to say, 'the truth is in the pudding.' we can talk all we want about whether untrained people should be able to beat us. but it happens regardless.



stuart b.

That's true, a unorthodox fighter definatly does not mean unskilled. Unskilled would be more like some one that just plain can't fight well not just not look pretty when they fight. A few of the best fighters I know are unorthodox and untrained but they are skilled fighters.

I do think though that it is very important though to spice up your training with different types of sparring and not just limited to what you train in. Mixing in other methods etc. etc.

[apoweyn]

cipher,

yeah, absolutely! i agree with you.

one of the best things that happened to me was going away to a small college. too small to have a taekwondo club, and a shotokan club, and a kickboxing club. we had a martial arts club. and if you were in it, you sparred with people from different disciplines. it was before the first UFC. and while i'd done a lot of reading about JKD by then, that experience was the first time that dealing with other styles was a reality for me. i'd gone from taekwondo to eskrima, so i'd dealt with fighters from those two before college. but in college, i sparred with boxers, point fighters, kung fu guys, traditional japanese stylists, more taekwondoka, etc. and untrained people. it was a real eye opener. sometimes very humbling, at that.


A few of the best fighters I know are unorthodox and untrained but they are skilled fighters.

conversely, some of the most technically skilled martial artists i know are absolutely awful fighters. they can perform picture-perfect techniques in a vaccumn. but they lack the intent, flow, or [insert attribute here] to land them properly in matches.

never as simple as it first appears, eh.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

I guess to me, the underlying issue is that if you are training to fight, especialy if you have a self defense bent ot your intent, shouldnt you be able to handle just about anything, ideally of course?
I mean, what are the chances you are going to be attacked by someone who uses the same style, AND trains similar to you AND just so happens to basically use the techniques your used to going up against......

[apoweyn]

well, right. and that's one of the strongest arguments for a conceptual approach to training. i don't really need a different defense for a haymaker than i have for a stick swing (broad stroke example, but bear with me). the concept is the same. it's an arcing attack coming at the same angle on the same side. therefore, things like footwork, zoning, and certain principles of blocking should be applicable regardless of the specifics.

obviously, there's only so far that logic will stretch. but you get the idea.

a person isn't going to catch an experienced martial artist off guard because they use a vertical fist (gung fu) rather than a horizontal fist (boxing). likewise, they're probably not going to surprise them all that much by doing a straight blast rather than a jab-cross.

but if you're expecting tight, controlled punching and you get an aggressive windmill, that might come as a surprise. unless you incorporate something approximating your concern into your regimen. that's all this stuff will ever be. an approximation.


stuart b.