Phoenix Eye Punch [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Former castleva

12-09-2002, 12:03 PM

Because it simulates the legendary phoenix.
Don´t ask how,I´m not a mythologist. ;)

And OH YES you are.

Creators (nuns/sisters) felt it to be highly effective and built an art around it.
There is a note on how it should be a good weapon for a woman.

Kristoffer

12-09-2002, 12:58 PM

I don't use phoenix punch much. I mostly use it to the ribcage, **** effective

Kristoffer

12-09-2002, 12:59 PM

****ing peice of **** censur that ****ing censures the ****ing word: D@amn :mad: :mad:

Souljah

12-09-2002, 02:04 PM

***** Kristoffer, so do you get into alot of fights then??? **** lol

The pheonix punch is not exactly something you use during sparring, is it.....

Former castleva, im guessing it simulates a beak
(closed beak pecking?)

Kinjit

12-09-2002, 02:15 PM

Good strike for women? Um, doesn't it require some serious conditioning for it to be effective? Speaking as a guy with small hands...

monkeywoman

12-09-2002, 02:27 PM

Have any of you guys actually hit anything with this? Something over say 100 pounds? And if the knuckle simulates a beak why don't they call it Beak of the Phoenix? They use this punch in all styles from Northern Shaolin to Southern Mantis. From Hsing-I to Bagua. Why would this be considered a punch for a woman? Does anyone have anything besides myths to back this up?

dezhen2001

12-09-2002, 02:31 PM

in my limited experience the phoenix eye is used to attack softer targets like the throat, under the ribs, bicep etc. so im not too sure of the conditioning, but i know it can be very effective (even playing with it can hurt a lot)... maybe someone on the southern forum can answer in more detail? :)

dawood

Former castleva

12-09-2002, 02:47 PM

I cannot see how you could peck with phoenix eye,but that´s just me.
Could it be that you´re confusing it with crane beak which uses this method in a literal manner?

Kinjit

12-09-2002, 03:06 PM

I might be completely talking out of my ass here, but I would imagine that part of the conditioning for such a specialised weapon is training the body to form such a fist in a high-stress enviroment - it's not very intuitive...

Hau Tien

12-09-2002, 03:55 PM

From my understanding of the technique (which is used in the Liu He Ba fa long form), the fist is not formed simply by extending the index knuckle. You must try to press the back of your index finger to the back of your thumb. It's not an easy thing to do at all, and certainly not instinctive. It's also very hard to explain how to do it, but when it is done, the phoenix "eye" is formed on the side of the hand.

Wish I had a webcam, so I could take a shot and show it...

monkeywoman

12-09-2002, 04:09 PM

That's what I think too Hua Tien. I see the eye where the index finger wraps under the thumb on the side of the hand. In my experience sparring, hitting small delicate points is hard enough without trying to hit them with a finger. Why not just blast away with the whole hand? I think the striking point should not intentionally be the protruding knuckle. I think the focus might be there to generate power but the actual contact should be the bigger knuckle on the hand. Anyone else have experience with this punch?

joedoe

12-09-2002, 04:21 PM

Take a look at some Chinese pictures of phoenixes and you will see why it is called a phoenix eye fist.

It is an extremely effective technique especially (as others have already mentioned) when used on soft targets. It is very good for hitting pressure points etc. Because it focuses the force into a very small area, it also causes a lot of pain.

fiercest_tiger is a big fan of the phoenix eye. Maybe he can shed more light on the subject.

GunnedDownAtrocity

12-09-2002, 04:55 PM

"The pheonix punch is not exactly something you use during sparring"

not if you have no control, but otherwise it's fine.

actually im not a big fan of this punch and would only use it in sparring. yes it causes a lot of pain, but does a lot of pain take out the guy trying to rip your head off? perhaps it does ... i'm not very good with this punch at all and also admit that my own sifu is quite fond of it. i can see great oporunities for it if you are locked up or grappeling with someone, but otherwise i personally would rather just use a fist. i understand you are striking with a smaller area with the phoenix, but is it really going to provide results that are that much better than simply smashing someone in the temple or throat with your knuckles? this is also coming from a guy who's middle knuckle on both hands are big enough to practically simulate a phoenix eye. my walls used to talk back to me a lot.

David Jamieson

12-09-2002, 06:38 PM

side on, the fist resembles a bird head.

If your hand is conditioned properly (not all calloused necessarily) and you know the energy to use it to "pierce", it is really effective.

It's not a power blaster cram it kind of strike. The fists and palms are for that kind of hitting.

It uses so called short power to deliver a lot of force to a small area and causing it to shatter, rip or tear.

peace

GunnedDownAtrocity

12-09-2002, 07:27 PM

ok could someone clear up short power for me. i'm pretty sure i have at least some understanding of it, but my sifu has differant names for things so maybe not.

this is probably the worst time to try and describe this, as im really fu cking stoned, but ill try.

some of the movements i have learned have power generation that is based on setteling, (sometimes) leaning, and exploding from your daichen (sp?) with all the power surging from the ground. this type of power can be deployed over a very short distance so i was wondering if this was the same thing as "short power" or at least similar. im not sure if i was actually doing a one inch punch, as my experience with jkd was brief, but i was able to mimick the results well with less than 6 months of fu ckin with it.

another question: i wasn't adept enough at the above to really worry about it yet, but i started trying to work hip rotation in with it. you sink or raise along with rotating your weight around your center. it would be sort of like a rooted, earth generated, upper cut. would this be spiriling power?

fiercest tiger

12-09-2002, 08:11 PM

Joedoe, was on the money! All i can say is it can be deadly in the wrong hands, i sparred another phoenix eye art school here doing chi sau and hit him under the nipple pressure point , i wont say what point but it cracked his rib and he went back to his sifu for internal medicine. with one strike!! shock power will come when you attack this is the training and mindest that is used and the whole body is behind this little protruding knuckle. like being stabbed then hit by a hammer, both hurt one penetrates internallly compared to one that the energy is spread over a larger area.

As for holding my fist its natural form to hold the P/EYE then a normal fist.:)

hope this helps?

FT:)

Serpent

12-09-2002, 08:26 PM

FT, that makes you something of an arsehole! What the hell are you doing using that kind of power and pressure point attacks in sparring?

joedoe

12-09-2002, 09:04 PM

You are right - FT is an arsehole :D

Seriously, I think FT was trying to illustrate the point that it is very poweful and penetrating and doesn't require as much effort as you might think.

TaoBoy

12-09-2002, 10:57 PM

FT has some pheonix eye fist vids up on his sight at the moment. Check them out.

Another related question: how do you actually form the fist shape? Do you place the thumb on top of the index finger and hold it down? Or do you place the thumb beside the index finger (on top of the middle finger) kinda wedging the thumb in place?

I have been taught both methods. I find that the first functions well and causes less pain in the thumb. Any thoughts, recommendations, assistance appreciated.

Adam.

PHILBERT

12-09-2002, 10:57 PM

Personally I am not a fan of the Phoenix Eye punch. Not saying it sucks (Ive felt it and it hurts) I just am not comfortable with it.

I do however have one question, the middle finger (No this is NOT a joke) pushed outward like the pointer finger is in the Phoenix Eye punch, what is that called and how effective is that?

Lowlynobody

12-10-2002, 01:05 AM

Serpent - I don't think FT hit him that hard if I recall. And I think there is a bit more to the story. Considering he has hit me in the same spot (on both sides) with a P/E I should know. But then again we all know that pressure point attacks are hard to do against a resisting opponent and don't work anyway, right? ;)

TaoBoy - I place the thumb behind the index finger and not resting on any other finger. One way to form this is to make a fist with your bottom 3 fingers and have your index finger pointing out and your thumb pointing up then curl both inwards.

If you want a strong P/E do exercises such as claw bag to strengthen the hand/fingers and do push-ups on the P/E tips.

The Lowly Guy.

fiercest tiger

12-10-2002, 01:34 AM

man of steel,

hey with your white body i can play dot to dot....lol:p

yes, there is alot more to the story to the guy being hit but you guys dont need to know!:eek:

Tao,

You need to hit wall bags, focus mitts, push ups, with different types of phoenix eye strikes. You know what i mean?? Different ging in the strikes so they must be worked on and then target practise is used with each strike, thats why the different clips. Look at the different phoenix eye strikes!:) You being southern mantis you will understand what i mean.:)

I have edited the clips alot there was one time doing the 2nd technique when kyle reaches to grab me and i flick his arms, well it shocked him and he just frooze due to certain points will do this to you when u have been struck, i saw this and stopped and we bursted out laughing as he knew it would have finished him. Im not saying im the sh!t just it is a shock to the body when it is pulled off right.:) Points can drain you and confuse you, when the shock has occured!!

anyway cya
FT

monkeywoman

12-10-2002, 06:34 AM

Thanks for all the honest replies and great info. It's nice to see a thread that doesn't insult your relegion, politics, style or your momma. :D I have one more question. Does anyone know the mandrin name for this fist and does it translate literally to Phoenix Eye?

Philbert

I do however have one question, the middle finger (No this is NOT a joke) pushed outward like the pointer finger is in the Phoenix Eye punch, what is that called and how effective is that?
We have that fist in a crippled style form based on the Sun Pin style. We call it "elephant nose". Look at it head on or sideways and you can see the trunk curling under. Don't raise it up in public or it could get you in trouble.;)

Former castleva

12-10-2002, 08:12 AM

Mandarin name-"yun fen" (as far as memory serves,this is a romanization then...)

"That's what I think too Hua Tien. I see the eye where the index finger wraps under the thumb on the side of the hand. In my experience sparring, hitting small delicate points is hard enough without trying to hit them with a finger. Why not just blast away with the whole hand? I think the striking point should not intentionally be the protruding knuckle. I think the focus might be there to generate power but the actual contact should be the bigger knuckle on the hand. Anyone else have experience with this punch?"

It was previously said but I cannot resist repeating that results will vary greatly as the power is generated from a big area and because of this,spreads to a bigger area.
In phoenix eye,you hit a small point with great drilling fashion,right weapon for right target.

"sparred another phoenix eye art school here doing chi sau and hit him under the nipple pressure point "
I cannot recall the point either,but fortunately he still breathes I assume.
That could have caused a considerable lung dysfunction.

In traditional phoenix eye training,poles and boards (with pads) are used (highly recommended)
Heavy bags are used these days but I know I would snap a joint if I´d try that.

Diamond Talons

12-10-2002, 09:14 AM

Monkeywoman it is sometimes said to be good for woman for same reason it is said to be good for smaller man. Take no more power than you have now and put it through surface area of ngan fung, understand? Forging yes & it must be done right & done right will not be known to those looking at your hands. This is after a while forging & at first it is obvious then with right jow & a couple other things it can't be seen. Done right it is good for all parts of body & destroys parts of brain when strike to head. It is a good kung to learn & have.

fiercest tiger

12-10-2002, 02:46 PM

Well said, sometimes your hands hardly move and its cause damgae on your opponment.

FT:)

TAO YIN

12-10-2002, 03:09 PM

Cool thread!

A strong Fung Ahn Choys striking a pressure point is hard to beat. Feeling shock power is like totally being shocked. When Sifu used the double flick to deflect my grab, my arms were helpless for a moment. It's just a sudden burst of "**** what just happened." Then your dead! hahahaha

The crazy thing about full on shock power is that when hit by it you don't move much. It is not a dull thud type of strike, its like a gun, or a nail gun. Just bam, no broken bones just shattered organs, and you're just standing there getting ready to fall. hahahaha.

To understand it you have to see and feel it. Just using wrist power alone to flick the phoenix eyes will hurt, so full body usage behind a phoenix is of course, well, not good for the opponent!
:D

thanks

Tao Yin

David

12-10-2002, 03:15 PM

I just installed a webcam last week so I've made a couple of pics to show the fist...

This one shows the position of the thumb behind the index finger
http://www.hakkatonglong.info/images/phoenix-eye.jpg

This one shows it from the angle which gives it its name.
http://www.hakkatonglong.info/images/phoenix-eye2.jpg

The thumb and forefinger are squeezed hard together and there should be no gap for light to get through (it should hold water). It's an awkward position to begin with but you get used to it.

-David

TaoBoy

12-10-2002, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Lowlynobody
TaoBoy - I place the thumb behind the index finger and not resting on any other finger. One way to form this is to make a fist with your bottom 3 fingers and have your index finger pointing out and your thumb pointing up then curl both inwards.

The Lowly Guy.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here.

You make a normal fist with the bottom three fingers. Cool.
You protrude you index finger knuckle. Got it.
Then you put your thumb behind you index finger? I think this is the same as my second explanation "...you place the thumb beside the index finger (on top of the middle finger) kinda wedging the thumb in place". If so, excellent. I am pretty sure there's only these two methods.

Cheers!

TaoBoy

12-10-2002, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
Tao,

You need to hit wall bags, focus mitts, push ups, with different types of phoenix eye strikes. You know what i mean?? Different ging in the strikes so they must be worked on and then target practise is used with each strike, thats why the different clips. Look at the different phoenix eye strikes!:) You being southern mantis you will understand what i mean.:)

Yeah. All true FT. I haven't really started to train the intracacies of the pheonix eye fist yet. It is a more advanced technique at my school. I like what I've seen. My instructor hit me on the cheek bone once when we were sparring. Just a light, flicky strike. Fark! It hurt for days afterwards and he really didn't have much behind it.

Aaahh the joys of kung fu.

Peace.

fiercest tiger

12-10-2002, 04:37 PM

Yes, the difference in the power of the different p/eye strikes are all in the forms and the 2 man drills i would say same as mantis etc. I aslo split a students eyelid open when he tried to attack me being sneaky and again i reacted to his attack and shock power came out. He was out on the ground and i didnt feel it!!:)

serpent yes again im an a$$hole!:)

FT

David Jamieson

12-10-2002, 05:06 PM

a good way to determine if you are generating the strike correctly is to use it on corrugated cardboard.

if you crumple the cardboard, you aren't generating properly.

if you pierce the cardboard only a hole from your knuckle, you are generating properly.

if you are a bit stronger, try drywall :D

stronger still? try board and so on.

there are many points to strike with the phoenix eye.

eyeball will suffer tremendous damage, throat can easily be crushed (laranyx), armpit can deaden opponents arm, GB21 (side between armpit and pectoral will deaden arm and with enough force knock the wind from your opponent.

Use it where muscles wrap to seperate and strike nerve fiber.

Unless you have tremendous ability, don't bother with head strikes like forehead, or hard bone area. you will collapse the fist and render it ineffective.

kidneys or anywhere on the belt of no protection is a viable target for the phoenix eye. (belt of no potection being your waist area where there is no bone. between ribs and hips, there is no protection save conditioned muscle. A very vulnerable area, esecially for a well placed phoenix eye.

the middle finger extended is the dragons head punch btw (in case you were wondering and it is used more or less with the same effectiveness as phoenix eye.

It's not such a mystery, but it takes time to learn to use it effectively.

peace

TaoBoy

12-10-2002, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
Yes, the difference in the power of the different p/eye strikes are all in the forms and the 2 man drills i would say same as mantis etc. I aslo split a students eyelid open when he tried to attack me being sneaky and again i reacted to his attack and shock power came out. He was out on the ground and i didnt feel it!!:)

FT

Yep, sounds a lot like YKM and SPM training techniques are almost identical (to a point).

It will be good to finally get to Sydney to play around with you and some of your guys. Your school open in early January?

O/T - Do you guys do any groundwork?

Cheers.

Serpent

12-10-2002, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
Yes, the difference in the power of the different p/eye strikes are all in the forms and the 2 man drills i would say same as mantis etc. I aslo split a students eyelid open when he tried to attack me being sneaky and again i reacted to his attack and shock power came out. He was out on the ground and i didnt feel it!!:)

serpent yes again im an a$$hole!:)

FT

I can tell I'm gonna have to come over there and kick your arse!

;)

fiercest tiger

12-10-2002, 10:16 PM

yes and no, ground work is alittle different and needs time to learn. My guys 1st learn to stand up fight and take downs , but not laying on the ground yet.:)

early january im hoping for the school to be up and running as the guys and myself are repainting the joint.:)

serpent,

lol, ok ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:)

Serpent

12-10-2002, 10:22 PM

Where is your place, FT? I might try to swing by one day.

(Not to kick your arse, of course, I mean in a friendly way. But if you try to phoenix eye me........ ;) )

David

12-11-2002, 03:14 AM

Kung Lek, I've heard the Dragon Fist (middle-finger knuckle extended) also called Chicken Heart fist and Leopard Paw fist. Leopard Paw because of the indentation it leaves in the ground looks like a leopard's footprint. Have you heard those names?

There's also a double phoenix-eye which places the thumb behind the index and middle fingers in the same manner as the standard phoenix-eye.

-David

Crimson Phoenix

12-11-2002, 03:48 AM

David, yep, this fist is also called Demon fist by okinawan/japanese arts, and I also heard it called Sun Bin's Nose Fist or just nose fist...

The double-phoenix eye you mention bears another name: it is called gong zi shou ("gong"-word hand), because it makes the fist look like a "gong" character in chinese.

Kung Lek, very good methods you describe... I have one more: to see if you generate proper jing, suspend a sheet of regular paper to the ceiling with a light wire. Make sure the wire is solidly attached to the sheet of paper.
Then phoenix-eye the sheet at will. With good jing (and that's quite hard to do), you'll pierce the sheet of paper.

Oppps, lunch time, back soon :-)

Former castleva

12-11-2002, 05:17 AM

"Kung Lek, I've heard the Dragon Fist (middle-finger knuckle extended) also called Chicken Heart fist and Leopard Paw fist. Leopard Paw because of the indentation it leaves in the ground looks like a leopard's footprint. Have you heard those names?"
To me,it was nothing but a more stable form of phoenix-eye,nice to know that name too.

BTW,there is an "official" double phoenix eye strike in phoenix eye fist KF (chuka) You simply strike with both "eyes" in a pre-arranged manner.

Colin

12-11-2002, 07:36 AM

We too use this strike.
The very first movement of third form is a Phoenix eye strike to the inside of the opponents bicep.

As for sparring, I have used this technique, and been hit by it many times during free sparring.
I get so many little round bruises on my chest the missus can play join the dots!

As for Phoenix eye pushups......
Many say they can do it, but only a few actually can. I know of one guy at our class that can, but it isn't me!

Colin............

GunnedDownAtrocity

12-11-2002, 01:02 PM

i had a question once ... .

TaoBoy

12-11-2002, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
yes and no, ground work is alittle different and needs time to learn. My guys 1st learn to stand up fight and take downs , but not laying on the ground yet.:)

Amazingly similar to the training I do in SPM. We first learn the principles standing up then learn some takedowns, some controls then grappling. Very interesting.

early january im hoping for the school to be up and running as the guys and myself are repainting the joint.:)

Been there, done that. Enjoy

Originally posted by David
I've heard the Dragon Fist (middle-finger knuckle extended) also called Chicken Heart fist and Leopard Paw fist. Leopard Paw because of the indentation it leaves in the ground looks like a leopard's footprint. Have you heard those names?

Yeah, Leopard Fist is what I've heard it called.

Starchaser107

12-11-2002, 07:41 PM

Crimson Phoenix,
I saw that technique you mentioned with the suspended sheet of paper in an oooold kf flick. i think they called it buddha finger i dunno why.
I think Phoenix punch is a very effective weapon. I've seen the middle finger knuckle used before in clf but never came across the double phoenix punch , first i'm hearing abt. it on this thread . learn something new everyday.
bless