Wild Bill does the martial arts...

[red5angel]

OK, so I was watching tha 1995 version of Wild Bill with Jeff Bridges. There is a scene where he is talking about if you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the gut. He says he will probably die from it later but most important, it will shock his brain and make him lock up for a few seconds.

Is there an equivalent martial arts concept?

[apoweyn]

hmm... a shotokan instructor once told me to kick just below the navel, so my opponent would wet himself.

i'm not certain that's the same thing, mind you.


stuart b.

[yenhoi]

Lots of similar things in the martial arts!

Try an elbow to the inside of your opponents (bicep) arm, or have someone do it to you and then see how fast that arm works.

Jam a finger into your hip/leg joint, observe the reaction.

They are all over the place.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i dunno ... im not saying i wouldnt take a gut shot if it were available and feesible at the time, but i can think of a lot of other areas i'd rather hit.

the shotokan dude was most likely talking about striking someone in the bladder . ... this can work but i wouldnt count on it unless you set aside a lot of time for practicing this specific strike.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

yenohi ... while i agree that these strikes can work, and an opportune (sp?) moment should never be ignored, im with the mma's in thinking they are not the most practical for fighting. i'd be more apt to rely on strikes to specific targets that dont take that level of accuracy .... like the throat and such.

[Serpent]

A front kick point strike with the ball of the foot, just inside the hip, kinda where the line of the abs leads down to the groin. Give it a press and you'll see what I mean.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"just inside the hip, kinda where the line of the abs leads down to the groin."

sounds like the same exact place i kick to jam muithai kicks and the like. i know it hurts to get kicked there, from experience, but if i could kick to that area (when someone's not trying to mow me down with a mt roundhouse) why not just kick to the groin? i would think the results are more reliable though not 100%.

[yenhoi]

gda:

I disagree. Part of my regular training is to nail these spots. "De-fanging the snake" so-to-speak by destroying his weapons (arms and legs etc,) These spots arent small, they arent pressure points, they dont need to be hit at a certain time, from a certain angle, during a certain months, they are huge targets that are out there begging for knuckles and elbows to smash into them.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by yenhoi
gda:

I disagree. Part of my regular training is to nail these spots. "De-fanging the snake" so-to-speak by destroying his weapons (arms and legs etc,) These spots arent small, they arent pressure points, they dont need to be hit at a certain time, from a certain angle, during a certain months, they are huge targets that are out there begging for knuckles and elbows to smash into them.

That's right. And, being a guy, taking out someone's nads is always a cringe-worthy idea for me, but collapsing someone with a point strike to the area I described will do no permanent damage but will surely take the fight out of anyone.

Also, a solid kick to the balls will not necessarily drop someone instantly. Contrary to popular belief, a lot of people on adrenalin dump can carry on for a few seconds after having the jewels squished before they go down. This won't happen with the point I mentioned.

And it's only one of many. It's just the first one that came to mind.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"a lot of people on adrenalin dump can carry on for a few seconds after having the jewels squished before they go down"

i agree, thats why i said kicking them in the nuts isn't 100 percent. but do are they more likely to survive the adrealine rush of getting hit in a pressure point vs. being kicked in the homies?

im so drunk i cant believe i can even type. been a while... it feels nice.

[Mr Punch]

As Yenhoi and Serp said, it isn't a pressure point, it's a swathe of weak points. You don't need that much accuracy, you could drive a bus through it... it fact, that'd be a more effective way of 'stunning' your opponent! :eek: :D

In karate (a derivative of shotokan and some other stuff) I was taught to go for the top of the bladder area, which amounts to the same thing.

If you move round to just above and to the front of the hip, there's a pretty effective take-down point which I was shown in action by my first wing chun instructor. He wasn't fond of 'high' kicks (above the knee!), but he showed it to us in case you had misjudged the distance when you've pulled their arm to one side/down, and didn't want to waste the kick. It's a nice and easy combo. If you follow it through towards the bladder with a really strong step, it tends to crumple the opponent. If you just kick it it seems to stop even big psychos sometimes!:D

Compare this with trying to get an effective nad kick in... for a start, they're smaller, the opp's usually doing his darnedest to keep them well out the way, plus, apparently, if you hit them straight up, you can miss the crushing effect you want, and the same if you hit them too straight on... there are just too many degrees of freedom! That's another reason why I don't wear tight pants! :D

This is turning into an essay, when all I really wanted to do is ask Red5: why do you want to do this??!! If you want to take someone out, go for the head (same with a gun I would think!), and if you want to control someone there must be better ways... Are you just asking about strikes to set-up other strikes or what?

[red5angel]

"That's right. And, being a guy, taking out someone's nads is always a cringe-worthy idea for me, but collapsing someone with a point strike to the area I described will do no permanent damage but will surely take the fight out of anyone."

Permanent damage isnt an issue with me. My policy is to get out of fighting first but if you pursue it with me you probably want to do some serious damage to me so at that point anything goes in my opinion.

Mat, I was watching the movie and he said that and it just got me thinking about it.
The way I see it, most good martial artist will be sparring right? So taking a shot or two isn't a big deal in general. After so much training, even if you take a good shot, it might be so ingrained that your body keeps working even if your mind isn't.
My instinct would be to go for the head, that usually produces a good "shock" effect if done properly but even that isnt a guarentee. S mostly I just wanted to see what others had to say.

Yenhoi, "de-fanging" the serpent sound sliek a good idea but do you think those sorts of shots are difficult ot make?

[Former castleva]

"OK, so I was watching tha 1995 version of Wild Bill with Jeff Bridges. There is a scene where he is talking about if you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the gut. He says he will probably die from it later but most important, it will shock his brain and make him lock up for a few seconds.

Is there an equivalent martial arts concept?"

What a thread!
I think that is a strange and broad description.
If you were to hit the liver as an example,results would be considerable I´d believe.
Shooting is all a thing on it´s own,but it is known that to fell a truly determined assailant with a gunshot,it is needed to shoot a vital tissue (even crushed bones and such non-fatal damage may not count) Even with a badly damaged heart,in some cases,a person may be able to carry on for many seconds.

"hmm... a shotokan instructor once told me to kick just below the navel, so my opponent would wet himself."
A small analysis on targets of lower abdomen:-
Under navel (vital point)-internal bleeding etc.
Bladder (a few inches above groin) broken bladder,likely to cause an infection if struck while full...
Possible unconciousnes,death (sometimes linked to bladder injury,I´m yet to hear exact medical explanation on this)
Pubic bone-If broken,restricts use of legs due to great pain.
Lower elixir field-If damaged,death may occur.

What a number of reasons.

"just inside the hip, kinda where the line of the abs leads down to the groin."
Pressure point I suppose.

"Try an elbow to the inside of your opponents (bicep) arm, or have someone do it to you and then see how fast that arm works."
Or a knifehand to bicep.
Causes a cramp and temporary dysfunction.

"i agree, thats why i said kicking them in the nuts isn't 100 percent. but do are they more likely to survive the adrealine rush of getting hit in a pressure point vs. being kicked in the homies?"
Easiest possible area to hurt and injure but...
basically talking about this in detail,what makes this attack work is a number of unprotected nerve centers (and arteries)
Similar to pressure points...
I easily understand your point though.

[yenhoi]

Red5: not hard to hit at all. The more practice the better of course, and once you start doing them, you will find that once you can pull off one or a couple on an arm, that arm becomes 10x's easier to manipulate, for traping, locking, or painful takedowns and throws.

Once you get going full contact, the adrelaline take care of any initial pain these strikes will cause to your opponent, but thats not what your going for, your just slowing that arms function long enough to hit it again somewhere, lock it, manipulate the arm, or pass inside his guard for other painful elbow fun.

Same kind of goals when it comes to disarming stuff, like sticks and knives from people. You dont just yell out your battl cry and slip some kewl technique on your opponent and wallah! - you have his weapon. Among other things, you must first get contact or control of the weapon hand, and then you need to hit your opponent, usually multiple times, before the disarm will work - those are the same type targets, the bellys of big muslces, like triceps, biceps, pecs. Shots to the floating ribs and throat.

[red5angel]

Makes sense to me. Like when you get a charlie horse in the bicep and you get that spasm feeling briefly, ties up the limb long enough for you to make your move.

[yenhoi]

Exactly, works on legs too. :eek: