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FIRE HAWK
07-28-2000, 10:33 AM
In the Shantung Black Tiger post on the other bord you said concerning the Shantung Black Tiger. I THOUGHT SHANTUNG BLACK TIGER WAS DEVELOPED BY THE DICSIPLES OF HARK FU MOON THE TEN TIGERS THEIR TEN FAVORITE MOVES ARE LTERALLY THE FIRST SET YOU LEARN SO SHANTUNG WOULD BE IN BETWEEN HARK FU MOON AND FU JOW PAI AND OF A CERTAIN LINEAGE AS WELL. Wich ten tigers are you talking about WONG FEI HUNG ten tigers or KOU YU CHUNG tentigers do the ten favorite moves make up this art in other words the the first set you learn is the entire art is that correct you said that this art was in between Hark Fu Moon and Fu Jow Pai what did you mean by that. FIRE HAWK

07-29-2000, 07:34 PM
I was refering to Hark Fu Moon's ten tiger's set. Now this was the way it was explained to me. Hark fu Fu Moon is the oldest of the black tiger systems we're talking about. Shantung Black Tiger was created next,it has northern kuan integrated into it, though I was told it is southern in origin this is part of my lineage and the one I'm the most interested in. Fu Jow Pai is the newest, developed by Wong Fai Hung, so it's less than 100 years old. If I don't have this quite right somebody will be sure to tear me to pieces, so feel free.

hasayfu
07-31-2000, 04:08 AM
Hi Tigerlilly,

Stumbled onto this thread. Interesting if we can get some info out

Your history of Fu Jow Pai does not match what's on the waising website. Does that mean you disagree with it or you are just stating what you were told?

Also, how does Hung Gar fit into your history? Wong Fei Hung (is that your Wong Fai Hung?) is in the lineage of most of the hung gar in the US today. He did not create a seperate tiger style. Of course there are other hung gar lineages and I am interested in how the other tiger styles tie into Hung Gar if they do at all.

07-31-2000, 05:35 AM
Oops no I just wrote down the wrong NAME. sorry Wai Hong. This is correct? LIKE I SAID...feel free rip rip rip. Anyway I didn't read all the way through the website. I own my own business & am not paid to play on internet like so many of y'all (I'm jealous)I actually have to work really hard during the day. I wanted to see the symbol this guy was refering to. I'll read it and tell you what I think. I am also very curious about the different tiger systems, their similarities and differences. Who incorporated what etc. That's actually why I put up with all this crap...

[This message has been edited by tigerlilly (edited 07-31-2000).]

FIRE HAWK
08-02-2000, 08:53 AM
Hi Tigerlilly do you practice SHANTUNG BLACK TIGER you said that it was southern in origin and that it was mixed with northern kuan.How many forms or hand sets are in your Shantung Black tiger you also said that it was part of your lineage so i asume that you study this style long with other black tiger styles.I am just trying to find out more history and the curriculam that this style comes from i understand that you said that it comes from the Hark Fu Moon Black tiger style so would Shantung Black tiger be considerd a northern style or southern style. FIRE HAWK

08-04-2000, 04:51 AM
Firehawk, if I was going to speculate as to how northern kuan was added to Shang Tung I would think it was when monks used to leave the monastery for their "ten years". Many of them used to hire themselves out to villages to teach self defense. I believe this is how different village styles of Hung Gar began as well. This is just speculation after reading about the origins of Shaolin Kung Fu in general. I would love to know more. Anyone?

loquito
08-05-2000, 09:16 AM
Tigerlilly,

You write,
"Fu Jow Pai is the newest, developed by Wong Fai Hung, so it's less than 100 years old. If I don't have this quite right somebody will be sure to tear me to pieces, so feel free.

And then you correct yourself and write:
"Oops no I just wrote down the wrong NAME. sorry Wai Hong. This is correct? LIKE I SAID...feel free rip rip rip."

No need to rip into you but according to Fu-Jow Pai history, before known as Hark Fu Moon or Black Tiger, the story goes like this.

Wong Bil Hung, born in 1841, learned Hung Gar from Wong Kay Yin and later from his son Wong Fay Hong.--Wong Fay Hong has nothing to do with the formation of Fu-Jow Pai.

In a dispute w/another master at the Hoy Hung Temple, an elder monk threw the combatants away from eachother. In awe of the monk's kung-fu ability, Wong Bil Hung studied the monks style, Hark Fu Moon. Upon the monk's death, who was separated from Shaolin Temple, Wong Bil Hung renamed Hark Fu Moon, in honor of the monk, as Fu-Jow Pai of the Hoy Hung Temple.

Wong Bil Hung taught his nephew, Wong Moon Toy, who as sole heir to the sytem, comes to NYC and teaches to a few selected students. One of those students is the current Grandmaster, Wai Hong. Wai Hong did not invent Fu-Jow Pai.

Fu-Jow Pai/Hark Fu Moon has been well preserved since the Shaolin monk passed it on to Wong Bil Hung. As to exact years, I do not know how many, but I can say that the been around considerably longer than a 100 years as you posted.

Regards,
loquito

FIRE HAWK
08-05-2000, 01:15 PM
Loquito on the Fu-Jow Pai post posted 7-15-2000 at 03:28PM You wrote NOW WONG MOON TOY LEARED HUNG GAR AND MI CHUNG I FIRST WONG BILL HONG ALSO BEGAN WITH HUNG GAR.AS A RESULT THERE ARE MANY ELEMENTS OF HUNG GAR IN FU-JOW AS WELL AS SOME MI CHUNG I FORMS SUCH AS FU-HAWK KUEN,GUNG GI FU-FUKIEN,AND IRON THREAD ARE COMMON STAPLES IN THE FU-JOW FORM ARSENAL. If Fu Jow Pai has elements of Hung Gar and Mi Chung I mixed in with Fu Jow Pai how can Fu Jow Pai be the same exact art that the monk at the Hoy Hong Temple was a master of called Hark Fu Moon Black Tiger style the monk at the Hoy Hong Temple would probably not recognize some of the things that are in Fu Jow Pai today since it has elements of Mi Chung I and Hung Gar mixed in with it.If it does have Mi Chung I and Hung Gar in it who put it there Wong Moon Toy or Wong Bill Hong maybe this is why Tigerlilly said that it is only a 100 years old i think what we have is a style called Fu JOW Pai with most of its roots in the Hark Fu Moon Black Tiger style in 1 way it is true Hark Fu Moon but because it has these other arts mixed in it it could also be called an electic style i have herd other masters say that this art was mixed with Hung gar Shantung Black Tiger is a art that has its roots in Hark Fu Moon but it is mixed with northern Kuan styles so it is electic Tigerlilly in one of the post above mentions the HARK FU MOON TEN TIGER SETS could there be ten original sets or forms that made up HARK FU MOON. FIRE HAWK

08-06-2000, 08:23 PM
You know... you set up this thread it seems to disagree with me yet it seems to me I had it right in the first place, Hark Fu Moon IS the oldest, Shang Tung is next and then Fu Jow Pai. I'm just less wordy. I'm terrible at remembering names, but I do know my history. When I said less than 100 years old, the Fu Jow Pai Federation wasn't created until the 30's, I guess I was going on that date. I appreciate the history lesson. Oh and I will ask sifu about how many sets for you. Haysafu, no I can't say I agree with everything on this website, I prefer to get my info through either ALMA or HORUS than (not just this one, but any) commercial website Thanks tigerlilly

loquito
08-07-2000, 02:18 AM
Firehawk,

Is Hark Fu Moon/Fu-Jow Pai the exact same art that the Shaolin Monk taught Wong Bil Hong a 150 yrs ago?

It's not a simple yes or no answer.

When the Fu-Jow Pai Federation was officially formed and chartered in NYC in 1968, and the doors were open to the public, Hung Gar and Mi Chung I sets were taught to beginning students. This was and continues to be a way to check and see their dedication and sincerity in learning Kung Fu. As a student advances, and shows their loyalty to the system, the essence of the style is unrevealed.

So, is the Fu-Jow Pai/Hark Fu Moon the same as it was taught a 100+ years ago to Wong Bil Hong by the Shaolin Monk? No,it is not taught in the same manner for a beginning student. The style has adapted for modernity and the changing times. But for the student that has been around and has trained to obtain a proficient level of Kung-Fu, I would say yes, absolutely, the Black Tiger Style remains in tact.

For me Fu Jow Pai and Hark Fu Moon are one and the same. Maybe their is another lineage of Hark Fu Moon/Southern Black Tiger, that did not come down from Wong Bil Hong, Wong Mon Toy, Wai-Hong, whomever, but I have never heard of nor have seen it.

Regards,
loquito

08-08-2000, 10:57 AM
Si-Lum is a different lineage of black tiger. It's a different temple I believe. Kung Lek knows quite a bit about this lineage. Check out his schools website, it has a lineage chart for Si-Lum. You know Ioquito, I'm getting totally reemed in another thread for saying I (and my sifu) consider Hark Fu Moon & Fu Jow Pai pretty much the same. All the black tiger systems carry the same elements. True, there have been some modern elements added, but it most certainly isn't the first time this has happened to kung fu. I assume each teacher brings a certain amount of change in very small ways as well. But black tiger is black tiger. We recently had a student join us who is from another lineage of hung gar (yee) whose way of doing kuan is very different,almost hard style, full force, yet the kuan is exactly the same. My kwoon's style is slower and more flowing, nearly like tai chi in comparison. You can see the influence of Mok Kwai Lan in our school. this is just an example that came to mind. I'm getting off the subject...

[This message has been edited by tigerlilly (edited 08-09-2000).]

SwiftKill
08-10-2000, 10:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tigerlilly:
Si-Lum is a different lineage of black tiger. It's a different temple I believe. Kung Lek knows quite a bit about this lineage. Check out his schools website, it has a lineage chart for Si-Lum.
[/quote]

Tigerlilly, do you know the web address to Kung Lek website. I have had no luck with the search engines so can you please write the web address for me. Thank you.

badbluebro
08-11-2000, 02:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tigerlilly:
[We recently had a student join us who is from another lineage of hung gar (yee) whose way of doing kuan is very different,almost hard style, full force, yet the kuan is exactly the same.
Tigerlilly, I am a Hung Ga student in the Yee lineage. As I see this statement and was wondering, what is your opinion or from any knowledge you may have gained, where the tiger techniques of Hung Ga passed from Wong Fei Hung come from. Would you say they may be from Hark fu moon? Thanks.
[This message has been edited by tigerlilly (edited 08-09-2000).][/B][/quote]

08-13-2000, 07:54 PM
I am actually trying to research and prove that the Black tiger systems are of the same origin. This is my belief. But boy this opinion seems to stir up trouble! Oh and swiftkill if you really don't know how to look up someone's website in their profile, then you really are a troll. I shouldn't help you since you were so rude either, but I just did. Say thank you.

loquito
08-15-2000, 06:56 AM
Tigerlilly,

I am interested in finding out more about the Fu-Jow Pai, formerly known as Hark Fu Moon lineage as well.

Sorry that you are getting reemed, seems like that is the nature of these threads.

But anyway, I find your comment interesting about the differences in Kuan between your style and the Hung Gar style. Hung Gar forms are taught in Fu-Jow Pai and though they are the same movements, the emphasis is much different.

Both styles claim to have elements of soft & hard, but my feeling is Fu-Jow Pai emphasis much more the soft, while Hung Gar emphasis is more on the hard. What matters is what works for you and I have seen very effective students in the both systems.

You use the example of Mok Kwai Lon, I am not familiar with this form. Could you elaborate about this form. And what Hung Gar forms are you learning?

Respect,
loquito


Si-Lum is a different lineage of black tiger. It's a different temple I believe. Kung Lek knows quite a bit about this lineage. Check out his schools website, it has a lineage chart for Si-Lum. You know Ioquito, I'm getting totally reemed in another thread for saying I (and my sifu) consider Hark Fu Moon & Fu Jow Pai pretty much the same. All the black tiger systems carry the same elements. True, there have been some modern elements added, but it most certainly isn't the first time this has happened to kung fu. I assume each teacher brings a certain amount of change in very small ways as well. But black tiger is black tiger. We recently had a student join us who is from another lineage of hung gar (yee) whose way of doing kuan is very different,almost hard style, full force, yet the kuan is exactly the same. My kwoon's style is slower and more flowing, nearly like tai chi in comparison. You can see the influence of Mok Kwai Lan in our school. this is just an example that came to mind. I'm getting off the subject...

[This message has been edited by tigerlilly (edited 08-09-2000).][/QUOTE]

SwiftKill
08-15-2000, 08:33 AM
Hi Loquito,

From your profile, I see that your interest is Fu-Jow Pai. Are you taking any classes now in Fu-Jow Pai and if yes, where?

molum_jr
08-15-2000, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SwiftKill:
Hi Loquito,

From your profile, I see that your interest is Fu-Jow Pai. Are you taking any classes now in Fu-Jow Pai and if yes, where?[/quote]

Deja vu...

What is your lineage. What logo is on the certificate and is it official. Heaven forbid if your patch is official but your teacher is not... Who is your teacher? Sorry but I cannot tell you who my friend's teacher is. Now bend over and be prepared to get...

Is it time for this thread to end or are loquito and tigerlilly just being toooo nice?

08-16-2000, 07:20 PM
Gee I wonder why I feel so....sensitive. Molum_jr swiftkill,what are you doing in a thread addressed to me anyway? I actually appreciate a pleasant, polite exchange of ideas. Which was just starting to get interesting( Thanksloquito firehawk&badblubro) Anyway Mok Kwai Lan Kuan was introduced to the Hung Gar system by a woman of that name. She was Wong Fai Hung's wife in his later years. There's some info on her in a thread about Mok Gar from beancurd. This is my lineage of Hung gar, by the way. I actually think that the other black tiger kuan is harder in style than hers. This kuan is based on crane,and the iris flower, as opposed to tiger and the plumflower. I was also comparing in my head the different formal salutes for Hung gar, Fu Jow Pai and Hark Fu Moon, which all contain the same tiger and crane elements but look just a little different. I am currently learning the beginning Gum Gong, but that's Hark Fu Moon. As far as Hung Gar goes these are the ones I currently know: arrow hand, plumflower,lohan,lau gar,mok kwai lan,power form,shaolin stance. I also know shaolin long fist (3 short kuan)& northern dragon (I)I also know 2 southern style broadsword forms 1 is hung gar & the other is older shaolin do I think.

[This message has been edited by tigerlilly (edited 08-18-2000).]

loquito
08-17-2000, 11:59 AM
Swiftkill,

No I am not taking Fu-Jow Pai lessons. Living on the West Coast/Southern Cal area makes it impossible to do so, since there are no Fu-Jow Kwoons here.

I would love to be proven wrong or wouldn't mind training with Fu-Jow Pai practitioners in the area.

Let me know if you have any info.

Regards,
Loquito

SwiftKill
08-18-2000, 06:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by loquito:
Swiftkill,

No I am not taking Fu-Jow Pai lessons. Living on the West Coast/Southern Cal area makes it impossible to do so, since there are no Fu-Jow Kwoons here.
I would love to be proven wrong or wouldn't mind training with Fu-Jow Pai practitioners in the area.
Let me know if you have any info.

Regards,
Loquito[/quote]

Sorry Loquito,

You are right about there being no Fu-Jow Kwoons in that area. However, which I am sure that you know, Paul Eng a disciple of Wong Mon Toy, and knows Fu-Jow but I don't think he is teaching Fu-Jow, only Praying Mantis.

SwiftKill
09-10-2000, 01:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by molum_jr:
Deja vu...

What is your lineage. What logo is on the certificate and is it official. Heaven forbid if your patch is official but your teacher is not... Who is your teacher? Sorry but I cannot tell you who my friend's teacher is. Now bend over and be prepared to get...

Is it time for this thread to end or are loquito and tigerlilly just being toooo nice? [/quote]

You need to grow up little boy/girl.

SwiftKill
09-10-2000, 01:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tigerlilly:
I am actually trying to research and prove that the Black tiger systems are of the same origin. This is my belief. But boy this opinion seems to stir up trouble.
Kung Lek knows quite a bit about this lineage. Check out his schools website, it has a lineage chart for Si-Lum. [/quote]

How is the research going to prove that the Black Tiger System are of the same origin? I saw no input on your research so far so I guess you have learned and saw the truth that there is no connection. Also, you need to study Kung Lek Lineage a bit more to see that there is no connection between Si-Lum and Black Tiger; the proof is in your face and you somehow still want to believe. Strange? However, I figured that since you have found out the truth, you probably felt embarrased and didn't response cause of that. Is this true? If I am wrong, please prove me wrong.

SwiftKill

09-13-2000, 11:23 AM
I really don't have time to write articles right now 2 of my employees are gone 1 retired 1 found an easier job in a mall selling shoes I'm swamped I definitely know the truth. Black tiger is black tiger. for example, in hark fu moon, ther is a kuan called hark fu moon kuan. it is also called by this name in the shang tung black tiger system, but the pretentious ones in the fu jow pai call this very same kuan step for step ya lo (sp?) DUDE GET A CLUE IT'S THE SAME FORM....oh yeah I forgot...you don't practice martial arts at all...I don't suppose you would understand at all really. I'm not sure about this but it looks like jeleisifu is doing this kuan in his first 2 photos in the pics area.

MoQ
09-13-2000, 09:05 PM
Yeah check out Kung Lek's lineage chart, it's a HOOT!

Wong Bil Hong was BORN 150yrs ago, learned HUNG GA from Wong Fei-Hung, met a mysterious, nameless monk, who of course spilled the beans about a heretofor unknown "Black Tiger" style and although it had been "preciously held by monks", Bil Hong CHANGED the name to Fu Jow Pai.

Because of lineage disputes and politics, some have returned to the "Hark Fu Moon" title, supposedly the root system, but it's all from the same place...

SwiftKill
09-17-2000, 04:03 AM
Tigerlilly,
Nobody is asking you to write an article; I really don't need to read about your sifu's past history and whatever useless stuff you always seem to write that never pertains to the questions I ask you. Plus we really don't want or care to hear any of your sad stories; this is a martial arts forum, not a sad story forum. I do not practice any martial arts so I guess I should listen to someone who has only been training for 2 years in (so you were convienced to believe) Hark Fu Moon; 2 years, wow! you must be a master and know what you are talking about in Hark Fu Moon <being sarcastic>. In your profile, you say that you are "jack of all trades, master at none", I think you should have put "A student of all, but a master at none". What is it? is everybody trying to be like Bruce Lee and think that they can learn a little bit of everything and then create and name their own style so that they can market it. Here is another incorrect, bullsh_t lineage that I thought you might be interested in. hWing Chun (http://www.afn.org/~afn59160/lin.html)]

MoQ
09-17-2000, 08:13 PM
And what the what is THIS?
"The forms taught are traditional Sil Lum Black Tiger Hung Gar"... LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

09-18-2000, 12:55 AM
Ahh NOW I truly do know the truth...Swiftlykilled is antagonistic, rude and really doesn't know anything at all. And didn't comment on my example because he doesn't do kuan.I answered your question. Hey you can insult me and my lineage all you want, but like I've already said many times.... before you judge me or my sifu or the other people you are now insulting with your all encompassing rude comments,maybe you should try studying martial arts.Oh are you talking about why the dumb guy who isn't a sifu thinks my sifu shouldn't teach. My sifu found a fellow martial artist in bed with his wife and nearly beat him to death.He was stupid enough to try to come back a few days later with some friends who were also beaten very badly. 2 had hospital stays. When he was given a hearing, all the other sifus admitted they weren't sure they wouldn't have done the same as him. He was never stripped of his rank, though he was on a sort of probation that lasted 5 years. That was 10 years ago. He was also aquitted of all charges...Here in arizona, 7 people attacking you is considered self defence. And the guy he found in bed with his wife could have been killed legally. It's called justifyable homicide. So really all I did was talk about a bunch of stupid gossip just now for your benefit Swiftlykilled. Maybe you should back off now, possibly apologize for all those rude remarks. don't you think a guy who can take on 7 at once can at the very least teach fighting? OH I forgot about mentioning that he signed a contract 2 months ago to fight Royce Gracie at the Cow Palace on Dec 15th. Yeah he must be a real nobody with no credentials....give me a break! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Oh... since you intimately know all these Fu Jow Pai people why don't you ask them about my sifu? Be sure to ask what kind of fighter he is...By the way, I never said I was an expert, but I've been studying CMA off and on since I was 12,that's about how old you're acting right now in my eyes. I warned you that any attempts to dis my sifu would end in silence on my end.I think it's pretty funny that you didn't know how to use the profiles, now you're such an expert, you forgot to say thank you! You at the very least make me laugh Swiftlykilled

Cease to do evil & learn to do right,persue justice & champion the oppressed.....IS 1:17 /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by tigerlilly on 09-18-00 at .]