A question for Baji practitioners...

[xingyi-boy]

Does Baji Quan employ concepts like ground path and constant peng in it's training? I'm not trying to classify Baji as Internal or External, I was just wondering how a Baji practitioner generates power, and how is it trained?

[RAF]

Xingyi-boy:

I am not trying to be a smartassk or anything but there is so much confusion over terminology that you'll have to define ground path and constant peng.

I don't understand how what you mean by employing constant peng in your training.

If you want to elaborate, I will try to see what bridges can be built.

In the meantime, maybe you can find some answer in these:

http://www.wutangcenter.com/bajipigua.htm

There is a particular way of relating xiao baji training to pigua training that, forgive me physiologist and anatomy enthusiasts, that cause the tendons to "pop up" and is useful in fajing expression and power generation.

I'll check in tomorrow and see what you come up with. I read some of Mike Sigman's ideas and other baji friends say his thinking is very compatible with what we do.

[xingyi-boy]

RAF,
Thanks for the fast reply! Unfortunately, I myself don't know how to define peng and ground path, but I can say that I am reffering to Mike Sigman's ideas, if that helps clear things up. How are these concepts compatible with Baji training? Are any of these ideas directly applied/used in Baji training? Sorry the question is so horrible....I won't feel bad if you don't answer. :D

BTW, I've been really interested in Baji Quan, and I just found out that a student of Adam Hsu, Richard Miller, is nearby where I live, so I'm going to check him out some time to see what I think.

[omarthefish]

I don't know about constant peng and 'groundpath' ( a term I'm only familiar with from online forums ) but I'm getting familiar with Baji.

My question has more to do with the nature of 'bao zha li'. More to the point, how to manufacture it. Translating it as explosive power isn't clear because boxers have 'bao FA li' but it's more like shooting a cannon where Baji is supposed to be like exploding a grenade - all directions at once. I'm sure the mechanics of peng are in there somewhere but I don't know where.

Just how do you explode out in all directions at once? I think structurally it may be very similar to peng. Like a very sudden sharp peng. It seems to be the primary goal of the first few years of training. Sifu says if I can get just this energy leaned, I'l be ahead of 90% of the Baji practitioners out there worldwide, so I figure it's pretty core to the nature of Bajiquan.

[Daredevil]

Well, in my opinion, it isn't Baji if you don't have this power (or aren't training specifically to get it). I also see the firm focus on developing this power in foundational training as one of the system's advantages.

As for the question on peng/groundpath, we venture deep into the realm of opinion here, but I don't think there is applying concepts from other arts to Bajiquan like this. The feeling of constant peng achieved in Taijiquan is a somewhat different thing from Baji, but there is a rootedness and stability in Baji anyway and that peculiar Expanding Power (expanding in all directions).

I think I'll ask my teacher about that for a more educated opinion, since I have actually been wondering about that myself (ever since making some minor breakthroughs in the peng department in Taijiquan).

[Muppet]

Do any of you baji guys have a strong background in hsing i as well?

If so, is it true that baji is VERY similar to Hsing I?

My Hsing I instructor's background is very solid but to put it politely, my ability to learn is hampered because I can't speak mandarin.

So it'd be great to supplement my training with a similar system--if not for anything else, so that I can understand just what the instructor is trying to describe without having to go through a less than knowledgable translator.

Thanks.

[RAF]

Its just a personal opinion but out of everything I have seen, I think that baji (as is played in our line of lineage) and xing yi must have a very common root both in training and power. However, our line of baji also utilizes and later combines training, applications, and techniques from pi gua.

In my own personal opinon baji has a combined flavor of xing yi and Chen's pao chuei.

I would take just about training in any system as long as it is a complete training system which includes breathing (neigong and qi gong), single moving, stances, big spear, and weapons along with two man training.

Keep your eyes open, soon in 6-9 months we will put out a very professionallly done tape on the system of baji including the basic foundational training that you'll need. I hope we have a baji camp sometime in the future but only time will tell.

Although I do not know Richard Miller personally, I suspect, based on his writing in the 1980s, that he knows baji quite well. He may be worth checking out.

[Water Dragon]

Sign me up for a copy of the tape. Will you be taking John Wang's lead on Emptyflower and put some of the "good stuff" out there for us?

Slobbering with anticipation,

[omarthefish]

Baji is much harder than Hsing-Yi. (not more difficult, I mean as opposed to soft). My Sifu seems to be familiar with Hsing-Yi as well as Baji. (familiar, it's not his mainstay) Occasionally he will perform a Hsing-Yi punch and sometimes he will throw a Baji punch for me to see. Not sparring, just excercising.

As there is a lot of Baji I'm not familiar with, I used to often mistake certain Baji moves for Hsing-Yi as well. Now, I can tell the difference based on the kind of energy used. They are qualitatively quite different. The only way I can think of to describe it is to say I think the Hsing-Yi seems to slide out more smoothly and BANG into place at the end of the movement. Baji seems sharper more explosive. No smooth sliding out into place. Mostly just bang, bang bang! . . . ah, I give up. It's too hard to describe. They are similar in certain ways.

[xingyi-boy]

Thanks for all the replies everyone!

Daredevil- I'm very interested in what your teacher has to say on the subject.

RAF- 6-9 months is just in time for my birthday! :D I'm also looking forward to those baji videos.

[RAF]

Regarding hardness, I don't know if that will hold at higher levels of training.

Take a look at Guo Laoshi description of him trying to punch Liu Yun Qiao (the whole thing descriptively reminds me of taiji tales).

http://www.bajimen.com/

"Grandmaster Liu rarely demonstrated when he was teaching most people, and it was even rarer to see him sparring with students. Once he was demonstrating an application to me, and I felt his arms were extremely slippery and hard to detect. When he said he was going to use his right hand to strike, it was always his right hand to hit me at the end... and my reactions to his movements were seemingly under his control. The bodyguards at the Presidential Palace used to call Grandmaster Liu "Liu the Old Daoist" precisely because of his seemingly magical skills -- like an old daoist performing an illusion."

PLEASE DON'T BE MISTAKEN. LIU DIDN'T BELIEVE IN MAGIC, JUST SOLID HARD BASIC TRAINING.

"When I went to Grandmaster Liu's house to bid my farewells two days before I left Taiwan, he asked me to strike his body. He was sitting in the chair smoking at the time. I asked him whether this was a test for technique or for strength. He replied "just hit me with fajing". I was rather confident with my kungfu at the time and I was afraid to hurt him, so I gave him a warning by signaling before I punch. I felt my fist made contact with his body, but it seemed to have hit nothing. At the same time he suddenly let out a big yell, and I bounced back and fell on the ground. He smiled and nodded, saying "don't lose your kungfu, practice hard, there are still higher and further goals to reach!". James Guo


The upper body in baji is song (relaxed )in order to store the energy for the delivery of the blow. Take a moving one punch, for example. The lead hand actually follows the motion of the da qiang (big spear) and the block is relaxed reflecting both ting jing sensitivity and a chan si jing. When stepping through at higher levels, there is no stomp and the forward delivery of a punch also depends upon the the pulling motion of the arm in the back. The waist literally torques the one arm forward and the one arm backward. All baji punch require a hollowing of the fist until the punch is delivered.

There is a lot more relaxation and softness in baji than meets the eye.

Again, there is variation among lineages. Take a look at the baji clip here of Liu Yun Qiao playing:

http://www.wutang.org/

I have had a little experience in training the five elements and linking form of xing yi and seen some of the da qiang training done at my school. There is a difference but I like to think of them as brothers coming from the same family.

Both are great arts!;)

[Daredevil]

Heya folks.

I talked to my teacher about Baji vs Taiji regarding peng. His answer was a humored "no" and he emphasized the traits of Baji stance training : being stable and firm below and the particular Bajiquan expanding/crossing feeling, which isn't exactly the same as peng. He also further elaborated that Taijiquan is like a ball, then motioned along the lines of a cross to indicate the Bajiquan expansion/crossing in contrast.

We also briefly discussed the Taiji concept of "empty"/"full" (those are not correct translations of the Chinese term, which is more like "almost empty"/"almost full", but they get thrown around a lot) in relation to Baji. Particularly the point that in Taiji the bottom/legs are "full" and the upper torso is "empty". While this isn't exatly the same in Baji, it is somewhat similar (I refer to text above, with the legs being stable and firm, etc).

So, there's the goodies from today's class for ya. :)

[RAF]

Lost your post, Wujidude but thanks for the support.

I'd love to have you over here for a seminar just so you could get a taste of what we do [esepcially getting a guy in his early twenties to start and carry out the training].

Also a note that my teacher often refers to the quality of baji/pigua that when you strike your fajing "blow-out". Although we train 8 structural points, the fajing is set blow out in all directions but the sinking jin(g) is very critical to baji's effectiveness.

What we modernly call qi gong or nei gong baji also adds to it specific ways of training heng Hass breathing and one exercise also conditions for reverse breathing. A lot of the pigua training is light in the upper body with quite a bit of body striking. However, the striking is driven by the waist. After training in their "nei gong" you can often think to the hands and feel warmth but also a puffiness, sort of like bread rising. That becomes more intense after training with the dog skin (I've done a bit and it also adds to the feeling of peng jing [although I am not comfortable in my understanding of peng jin(g)] or a blowing out of the body during strikes).

In some of the two man exercises, we actually strike the opponent's body (usually shoulder) and some of the kao techniques people really let loose.

A lot of good stuff here but the trouble is that so few young students go the long haul. You have to go beyond a 3-5 year period of training to really feel some of the stuff in baji. That's why we often encourage young guys to set out in mantis first, especially 8 step mantis which tends to be expansive and contains bagua/xing yi fighting techniques and applications. Thats also why we learn the 5 elements of Xing Yi plus a linking form and xiao kai men bagua. At the elementary levels of 8 step mantis you can learn to defend yourself rather quickly (however, there is many great things at the higher levels of 8 step--ba bu Zhai Yao #1, #2 etc. is pretty **** sophisticated)

In my experience, I would say that most students stay for an average of 3 years and therein lies the problem with learning baji/pigua. At 3 years your conditioning is just beginning to take hold--the foundation is partially started. If you were faithful to the stancework, your sinking jin(g) might be in place and you might have some power if you have also been faithfully punching and doing some elementary da qiang exercises. That's the sorrow of learning baji and most people don't start out immediately in baji.

Drifted a bit here so let me get back on course. Someday we can talk about the kun wu sword and the baji sword too.

Thanks Daredevil and all of you and good training!

[Lowlynobody]

RAF - That striking and feeling like you've hit nothing and then being sent back as described by James Guo sounds allot like something in Bak Mei and YKM. Something that is a by-product (I think) of ging generation. Also the ging exploding in all directions at once is another principle that can be found in southern systems. Its amazing the similarities that can be found :)

[RAF]

Lowlynobody:

I believe you. I have no experience with sourhern systems but can believe what you say. More and more I think the ends of all systems are similiar and its the means that are different. Also I think that the complete systems of various styles are held by very few and some of the differences result from this comparision of incompletedness.

Good training.

[Daredevil]

Excellent points in your last point, RAF. For what my personal view is worth, I entirely agree with your point re: completeness&incompleteness.

Enjoy the training.

[RAF]

Daredevil:

You gotta come visit us for a tournament sometime. Really!