View Full Version : chi sau principles
while we're on the subject
what are the principles your school uses to guide chi sau practice?
heres some of ours (off the top of my head):
stay relaxed
try to control the centerline
when you hit, make sure you can follow through - this makes sure you have good a good connection and structure
when you hit, make sure you can follow it up with at least one more hit - this makes sure you have control of your opponent/chi sau partner
yuanfen
12-10-2002, 07:23 PM
TJD: IMHO- EVERY principle of wing chun comes alive in good chi sao- I can't think of an exception. (Even though it's not actual figting- therefore the principles are worked on under control. You can pressure an opponent with control).
Rolling_Hand
12-10-2002, 08:05 PM
Yuanfen wrote:
IMHO- EVERY principle of wing chun comes alive in good chi sao- I can't think of an exception. (Even though it's not actual figting- therefore the principles are worked on under control. You can pressure an opponent with control).
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Yuanfen,
Every principle of WCK comes alive in good Chi Sau. What does it mean to you exactly?
You know your position is weak, Red5 takes you by superise. You have all the ingredients to realiize an opponent with control. But you can stop pushing the point. hahaha...
Humm....
lim lik,how you wish it so?
sui
yuanfen
12-11-2002, 06:32 AM
sui- you dont know wing chun and dont do wing chun-take your fellow troll trailing hand and the garbled non sequitirs and do your poor and boring trailing and trolling somewhere else- you will be less the fools.
CLOUD ONE
12-11-2002, 07:53 AM
To sum up in words-"loy lau hui sung lat sau jik chung"
Originally posted by yuanfen
TJD: IMHO- EVERY principle of wing chun comes alive in good chi sao- I can't think of an exception. (Even though it's not actual figting- therefore the principles are worked on under control. You can pressure an opponent with control).
this is well and good, but if you tell someone that it's not going to improve their chi sau. what are some of these principles that are good to remind people of?
yuanfen
12-11-2002, 05:07 PM
TJD replies; this is well and good, but if you tell someone that it's not going to improve their chi sau. what are some of these principles that are good to remind people of?
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TJD- One can take a single principle at a time and work on it and someone who knows that principle well can help. In any case-
1. Dont be eager to hit.
2. Never neglect single sticky hand first so you can control each hand by itself and coordinate with the structure. Make sure that the other hand in single sticky isnt a dead stiff hand...and that while seemingly silent makes little adjustments to the motions of the more active hand.
3
4
5 etc.
Sounds basic? But in every serious subject-weak foundations show up elsewhere.
Joy Chaudhuri
[Censored]
12-11-2002, 06:21 PM
when you hit, make sure you can follow through - this makes sure you have good a good connection and structure
Is this the same as "don't reach"?
when you hit, make sure you can follow it up with at least one more hit - this makes sure you have control of your opponent/chi sau partner
How do you know in advance whether or not you'll be able to hit a second time?
you know you can hit them that second time by following up your first hit with another one :)
[Censored]
12-11-2002, 07:07 PM
If you can follow every hit with another one, regardless of the situation...perhaps you should put out a video with that Rich Mooney guy? ;) Otherwise, maybe you could explain to me why landing 1 good hit is worse than landing 0 good hits.
Rolling_Hand
12-11-2002, 10:37 PM
Yuanfen wrote:
sui- you dont know wing chun and dont do wing chun-take your fellow troll trailing hand and the garbled non sequitirs and do your poor and boring trailing and trolling somewhere else- you will be less the fools.
-------------------------------------------------------
Yuanfen,
You don't like to be a bully, but you need to know where Sui stands. And now you're in a tight corner. Is this called good Chi Sau to you?
yuanfen
12-12-2002, 07:05 AM
CensoIf you can follow every hit with another one, regardless of the situation...perhaps you should put out a video with that Rich Mooney guy?
-------------------------------------------------------------Beware of looney
empty force-it can travel through boards and obstructions.
Among the threats received on the net was this strange one that my insides would be cooked !.
Seriously all kinds of things can seem to be effective if the other fella is cooperative and/or lets you get away with it or is incompetent or is considerably drunk.
Originally posted by [Censored]
If you can follow every hit with another one, regardless of the situation...perhaps you should put out a video with that Rich Mooney guy? ;) Otherwise, maybe you could explain to me why landing 1 good hit is worse than landing 0 good hits.
i didnt say you had to follow up your follow up hit with another hit, etc etc etc. the rule is non-recursive :D
the point of striving to be able to follow up your hits is to make sure you have control of the situation - it may not happen all the time but its a good thing to strive for! if you can keep following up your hits, your in control i'd say
t_niehoff
12-12-2002, 01:37 PM
What is all this talk of "hits" w/r/t chi sao? From my perspective, chi sao is about sticking (investigating the method "chi") not "hits": learning how to stick, how to best use sticking, what it is used for, what one can do with it, when not to do it, etc. Concern with "hits" can very easily lead one to miss the larger picture IMHO.
Terence
hi r-h that was hilarious,i don't think he understands about chi sao,for he wants to hit and follow with the next.this is not good chi sao,so i don't think he is qualified to answer?
in dan chi sao what do you learn so that you can do double?i think he missed the station,which i think is very poor for a teacher.lol
if you do not learn to stick and hit what is the reason for learning chi sao?
yes cloud to sum it up no basis of "lim lik"what so ever.you tried helping him awhile ago and still r-t,whtas wrong with this picture?
sui knows lim lik,knows chi sao but not wing chun!how small you feel!
sui
yuanfen
12-12-2002, 02:43 PM
sui- you are mixing someone else's post with mine. You have to first learn how to read properly and then write,if you want to troll on the net. Or you can ask your trailing hand friend how to send your gibberish to another list where his are reproduced. Have fun talking to each other or to yourself..
Originally posted by t_niehoff
What is all this talk of "hits" w/r/t chi sao? From my perspective, chi sao is about sticking (investigating the method "chi") not "hits": learning how to stick, how to best use sticking, what it is used for, what one can do with it, when not to do it, etc. Concern with "hits" can very easily lead one to miss the larger picture IMHO.
Terence
too much emphasis on sticking and you'll end up chasing hands. if my hands are far from the centerline, why stick to them? you should be pounding my face in
yuanfen
12-12-2002, 06:05 PM
TJD- I think that you are makinga common mistake of associating chi sao with pounding people. The question of chasing hands does not necessarily arise when you are rolling and figuring things out.
but it can when sticking is emphasized too heavily. theres a happy medium between totally sticking, and pounding. if the line is open, you should strike
Rolling_Hand
12-12-2002, 09:07 PM
Yuanfen wrote:
sui- you are mixing someone else's post with mine. You have to first learn how to read properly and then write,if you want to troll on the net. Or you can ask your trailing hand friend how to send your gibberish to another list where his are reproduced. Have fun talking to each other or to yourself..
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Yuanfen,
You're hesitant about turning a new corner. Light up. There's more to life than bickering.
Sui,
Who is the current Bak Mei Grandmaster in Hong Kong?
yuanfen
12-12-2002, 09:13 PM
tjd:sez:but it can when sticking is emphasized too heavily. theres a happy medium between totally sticking, and pounding. if the line is open, you should strike.
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What is the context? Poon sao or gor sao? Without mastering poon sao- gor sao can leave you wide open. The seemingly open line may not really be open.
r-h tobe totally honest with you,you have thrown me off balance but to answer your question its undoubty still chong li tchan as he'll never die,but living there is no-one who comes close.why do you ask?or do you ask who is the reconised grandmaster of bak mei?
"don't be eager to hit"
no i don't think i have got it mixed up,the idea is to not get hit during chi sao but as you don't know lim lik your not qualified to answer,now are you?anyone can hit without chi sao,but to not get hit with chi sao is a refinement.
it will eventually turn to lap sao to which is as closer to fighting and you must learn not to get hit.there are some ppl that learn lap sao without chi sao and they can hit because they're to busy getting hit!but it all depends on how you define chi sao,in your case not clear[misty] and confused.
sui
Wingman
12-12-2002, 11:18 PM
The seemingly open line may not really be open.
Correct. The opening presented by your opponent could be a bait to lure you into attacking/striking. You could be walking into an ambush.
Originally posted by Wingman
Correct. The opening presented by your opponent could be a bait to lure you into attacking/striking. You could be walking into an ambush.
there are many ways to take the centerline once its open. in my somewhat limited experience, there are almost always (if not always) ways to take it without falling pray to your opponents intentional ambushes - you just need an open mind. when you stick to certain techniques its easier to fall prey to ambushes of that nature.
S.Teebas
12-13-2002, 12:52 AM
but it can when sticking is emphasized too heavily. theres a happy medium between totally sticking, and pounding. if the line is open, you should strike
You shouldn't have to THINK to strike. If you are sticking to the CORRECT target then your body should do the rest.
there are many ways to take the centerline once its open.
If there is an opening you go through, if there is not an opening
you dont go through.
when you stick to certain techniques its easier to fall prey to ambushes of that nature.
If relying on techniques you chances of geting led into that ambush are greater. Chi-sau isnt about techniques.
i agree with all 3 points :)
CLOUD ONE
12-13-2002, 01:36 AM
Sui has got a point where what is after chi sau?
For refinement leads to lapsau.
But in some cases chi sau is not to be stuck to forever!!!
Although with anything in Kung Fu you have to go back to go forwards.
As a training aid it certainly is beneficial but you shouldn't be attached to this training, it should lead to somewhere.
S teebas I agree that what ever comes out in chi sau should be through inspiration and not 'perfect tech'
i.e mind set.
although when you said there is an opening you should go through I believe it is your partner that has opened up without being aware he has done so. Then your principles will lead to your hands to spring out a little so you have a choice to either strike,touch,tickle or even do nothing. This is not combat so is it necessary to srike? But if you want to let your partner know his hands need more sensitivity then you should touch him.
yuanfen
12-13-2002, 07:59 AM
Cloud One- No sui does not have much of a point. Knowing in depth several different arts is not easy. He has his hands full in
arguments on the southern list. Lop sao is an integral part of the chi sao paradigm. Short of actual fighting there are all kinds of
variations and spinoffs in the world of chi sao. One has to reach a a certain level of competence in wing chun to understand that.
I dont play sui's games- i am talking wing chun.
i know i don't have a point it is only the way,i would not stick to it.in my experience there is no completion in any art.so why do you feel that you have reached any level at all?lop sao and lap sao is not the same so you are wrong to assume once again,and please there is no game here least of all mine,it shows you are threatened,but why times change and ppl grow.
cloud i agree,and no under no circumstances should you strike not even touch imo.because its out of the eqasion and will prove what is intended of that training.if you strike it breeds a certain emotion to win at all costs,to be the best.no-one learns eh yuan?
sui
Originally posted by Sui
i know i don't have a point it is only the way,i would not stick to it.in my experience there is no completion in any art.so why do you feel that you have reached any level at all?lop sao and lap sao is not the same so you are wrong to assume once again,and please there is no game here least of all mine,it shows you are threatened,but why times change and ppl grow.
cloud i agree,and no under no circumstances should you strike not even touch imo.because its out of the eqasion and will prove what is intended of that training.if you strike it breeds a certain emotion to win at all costs,to be the best.no-one learns eh yuan?
sui
sounds like tree-hugging-hippie-patty-cake to me then
tjd thats why you too having big problems with chi sao princeples.
mine seem to work just fine, thank you
S.Teebas
12-14-2002, 01:59 AM
although when you said there is an opening you should go through I believe it is your partner that has opened up without being aware he has done so.
Agreed.
Then your principles will lead to your hands to spring out a little...
What about your body?
This is not combat so is it necessary to srike?
I don't hurt my training partners, becasue its training...not fighting. There are other things that i work on eg: controling the opponents balance. If some ones balance is gone when you stkie them it amplifys the power beacause they can't ground it.
But if you want to let your partner know his hands need more sensitivity then you should touch him.
Work on whatever you think is important i guess. :)
Gandolf269
12-14-2002, 02:33 AM
Yuanfen:
You said in an earlier reply that, when doing Dan Chi Sau, you should not let the "other" hand become dead. Could you explain this more please?
My confusion lies in the fact that I was taught to keep the hand not participating in the withdrawn position, on the side of the chest (not sure of, or if there is, a name for this position). With the arm next to your chest, it is in a stationary position, isn't it? So I'm not sure how to make the adjustments your talking about. Or, what type of adjustments you mean. :confused:
CLOUD ONE
12-14-2002, 08:12 AM
You asked what about the body- The body follows the hands i.e don't reach so to keep your structure rooted!!!
Your first touch will determine who has a better structure and who is not balanced!!!
So what you said about amplifying the power, is due to your partners unrootedness, I agree.
I believe that we are both TST line so the things we will work on may be similar.
So it seems you chi sau for yourself?
Where do you think the skill lies in Chi sau?
yuanfen
12-14-2002, 08:51 AM
Gandolph sez:With the arm next to your chest, it is in a stationary position, isn't it? So I'm not sure how to make the adjustments your talking about. Or, what type of adjustments you mean.
---------------------------------------------------------------Gandolph- if
the elbow is properly down and the shoulder is properly down
and of you are appropriately relaxed and not tight the more obviously moving or dominant hand will have a subtle influence on the seemingly stationary hand. You dont intentionally overdo the micro motion- but it is part of the ying yang complimentarity
of motion that is there throughout wing chun development.Ergo-
Awareness of the connection aids in skill development.... a "conceptual" dimension...
joy chaudhuri
S.Teebas
12-14-2002, 06:27 PM
So it seems you chi sau for yourself?
Nope. I misinterpreted what u said by touching your partner. In some systems I’ve seen people do little patty-cake hits without any body behind it and think they've "scored" or whatever because hit gets through even though there is nothing there backing it up. All I was trying to convey was that getting the body behind each movement is more important, from developmentally view point, then hitting with noting behind it....That’s my opinion anyway. Reasons being, on the street the amount of force someone is going to give you that have to redirect is going to greater than a light flick, they are going to try and rip your head off and put every ounce of weight into it. I think its more realistic to deflect a stronger and heavier forces. I see however your thinking is similar and I stand corrected. :)
On a side note, I think you do have to spend time concentrating on yourself, or how else do you improve? I frequently help by point out errors I see in my training partners, and suggest ways to improve.
Where do you think the skill lies in Chi sau?
I think it's the ability to summarise what you learn in the forms. Each time I practice im working on different things. Recently im working on allowing as much force I can to pass through my structure before I have to move my stance, while keeping completey relaxed. Also im understanding that it's the ability to react that is crucial to keeping the body unaffected.
Im interested in your ideas, where do you see the skill lies in chi-sau?
CLOUD ONE
12-14-2002, 07:15 PM
There is always things to learn in 'chi sau'.
I am still learning so skill I can't answer but I like what you have said. I agree that keeping your 'centre' whatever your partner does is important. Keeping to the principles of loy lau hui sung lat sau jik jung is a key for me.
Have you practiced- partner chain punches and you defend with one arm? (wing arm)
Gandolf269
12-14-2002, 11:12 PM
Yuanfen,
Thanks for clearing that up. The next time I do Dan Chi Sau, I will think about the connection between the two hands and the feelings in the stationary hand that are caused by the moving hand. :)
S.Teebas
12-14-2002, 11:51 PM
I am still learning so skill I can't answer but I like what you have said. I agree that keeping your 'centre' whatever your partner does is important.
Dont be humble Cloud One! If you are talking about your centre then you obviously have some knowledge of the more important aspects of WC. Please share your thoughts on important aspects of chi-sau! :D
Keeping to the principles of loy lau hui sung lat sau jik jung is a key for me.
What does that mean?
Have you practiced- partner chain punches and you defend with one arm? (wing arm)
Not for a long time. Why do you ask?
Rolling_Hand
12-15-2002, 12:20 AM
--r-h tobe totally honest with you,you have thrown me off balance--Sui
---------------------
Sui,
hahaha..... good to see ya again!
That's the reason why I gave up Bak Mei for Wing Chun in Fatshan.
I'm a Wing Chun man, and I always take your center!
Humm....
ahhh thanks but it springs to mind william chung how close are you to him?i too studyied beneath him,but then i took it to another level which is hakka pak mei,different to cantonese and again different to fatshan pak mei.its very similar to wills w/c but not.do not forget i never stay in the same place;)
also thanks for reminding me my center-good and remind yuan to go back to dan chi sao-also have you been back lately?
p.s i'm not pak mei at all now.
sui
YungChun
12-15-2002, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by S.Teebas
I’ve seen people do little patty-cake hits without any body behind it and think they've "scored" or whatever because hit gets through even though there is nothing there backing it up.
I think this represents a 'stage', stationary Chi-Sao, and that hopefully later on these students will go on to stepping in - sometimes a small close is just enough so long as you follow.
In most cases it isn't critical to hit hard. More important most of the time is to ensure good position, distance and follow up (Fon Sao). An exception to this might be when you've got the movement down and need to work on releasing powerful energy. It's always fun to play with people working on this.
--
IMO Chi-Sao is all about training the concepts in the system and attribute development. Learning how to issue neutral energy while being sensitive to non-neutral energy and adapt is the crux of the training process.
YC
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