Harm reduction...

[Merryprankster]

How does your style handle harm reduction if in a disadvantaged position on the ground? Avoiding shots entirely is almost impossible because once you are on the ground in this way, you are quite a bit more of a vulnerable target as your mobility is reduced. Not every shot is knockout, of course, but I can testify that getting punched in the face while your head is on the ground is a bit more shocking than when upright.

I'm thinking less in terms of a disengaged opponent and more in terms of somebody who wants to ground and pound you and is "in your face." Somebody far enough for a good kick is also giving you space to create the opportunity to get back up. (situationally dependant of course, but it's much harder to get up with 200 lbs of person trying to crush and hit you)

[SevenStar]

Good topic. When I was in longfist, this was really never addressed. it was always assumed that you were disengaged. When we did grapple, we only grappled and didn't work GnP.
The other day in bjj, we were discussing how pulling guard, while not the ideal position, can possibly be used against multiple attackers, until you can find a way to get up.

[FatherDog]

Wrist control. The minute he reared up to create space for strikes (whether from the mount or guard) I'd have my hands up in guard position, elbows in, protecting my face. After the first strike (which I would hopefully deflect with the forearms) I'd be trying to capture the wrist he struck with, while extending the other arm into his shoulder to take the force out of the coming strike with his other hand. If he's far enough back on me, I'd also try to sit up into him and clinch with an over/underhook.

[OdderMensch]

ok not really, if the person is on top of me (ie straddleing my chest) we are taught to bring the hands up, fists closed and elbows in to gaurd the face/neck. We then try to use our elbows to attck the inner thighs while scooting ourselve under them getting them off our chest and onto our hips, so that a bump is possible, then we try to catch the arms, or escape or whatnot.

[yenhoi]

Do whatever you can to be mobile, moving around, jerking, trying to disrupt his base and avoid blows, maybe make some space to get leverage or change positions, engage the attacks - try to get an attack of your own.

[Merryprankster]

I see by the plethora of responses that people on this forum obviously train hard for figuring out how to get back up. :rolleyes: You'd think that a group of people so intent on staying upright would address the need to recover that position--and the steps you need to take to do so-- if it's lost.

If you don't avoid getting blasted down there you won't have the opportunity to get back up.

[HongKongPhooey]

If some-one who weighs 200lbs is on top of me I'm f.ucked (I make 10st just) My stragey when some-one is trying to take me down is to move, sidestep or counter it. My preference when some-one is charging full on is the rice bail throw, so I end up on top or to the side which let me "groud and pound" or roll away. If I'm being grounded and pounded. Protect the head, try to slip or block the punches and break what ever I can get my hands on. Basically cause enough pain/distration that I can either roll them or bounce them off (throwing my hips up so the come off) And then roll away

[yenhoi]

Well I did say change position, which you should probably always have a mind to do, on the ground/standing, dominant/inferior you should always be on the go.

[SevenStar]

MP, with striking styles, I think the reason it's not addressed is because they tend to have the standpoint of "Don't end up on the ground", consequently, stuff like that isn't addressed in training. It's never been addressed in any of the stand up I've done either. All that was really addressed from a ground perspective was as if you lost your balance or were swept and your opponent is standing over you.

the rice bag throw can work beautifully, but I think it's mainly effective against a sloppy shoot, where the back isn't straight and the head may be down.

[Merryprankster]

Well, I keep seeing how popular this topic is.

So much for the I do a complete style nonsense. 1 billion responses to sidekick ?'s and 8 for how to keep concious so you can get up and actually use your style.

[HongKongPhooey]

Funny isnt it as kicking is a very good way to open your self up to be taken down. Standing on one leg any-one?

[rogue]

Why should I care MP, I just won't go to the ground.:D ;)

[yenhoi]

crybaby.

:eek:

[red5angel]

I am with rogue here, I am just going to punch or knee the guy in the head.
As a matter of fact I am going to punch him right in the iris, because as I have learned it in my MA, hitting someone in the iris is a sure way to beat the ground game....

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, MP, I'm not sure what you want. Should everyone who's pretty clueless on this subject (like me) come in and post:

"I don't really know what I'd do, besides cover up and try to wriggle away. Guess I better start crosstraining."

Because while that's my honest answer, 100 repetitions of it are gonna be pretty boring.

[Water Dragon]

I roll backward. Believe it or not it works. It's quick, and it creates about 10 feet of space. It's my one carry over from the 5th grade Ninja days.

If he's on top of me already? UPA. Screw the guard in a fight, I can't even sweep a white belt. I've Upa'd blues in rolling before though. It's my only strength on the ground.

[SevenStar]

pulling guard in a fight can help against multiple attackers. you have a guy on top of you, covering the front of your body, and by pulling him in you have him guarding your face too. While it's not the ideal position to be in, it does provide some means of protection. when he moves to create space and hit you, upa and try to get to your feet quickly. In a multiperson altercation, guard is one of the safer positions you can have on the ground, as it's the one where you are least exposed.

[Brad Souders]

If the guy is mounted on me:

In this situation with strikes i lik eto first grab his head and pull it to me. Overhook at least on arm and control at the bicep of the other. The side i have overhooked is the side i keep my head on. This helps some what with eye gouges. Then i work bucks and bridges when they try to strike. More than likely eventually i'll work a knee in and get guard or a heel hook.

If the guy is in my guard:

If he stays down playing guard with strikes i'll go almost same postion as before. This time i'll use alot of strikes here cause they for some reson forget they have an arm overhooked and get triangles alot.

If they are standing i control the biceps with either my legs or my hands. I try to get them to miss alot with alot of hip movement. Then when i get the chance i kick them in the face :)

Later, Brad

[Water Dragon]

Ahhh, but Sev, I couldn't pull it off. You have to train a lot in the guard to use the guard. I can make the Upa work, so I'll let someone get mount on me before I pull guard on them. Well, at least I'm aware of it :D

[SevenStar]

can't argue with that! :D

[Merryprankster]

CSN,

I just figured all these complete stylists would have some way of not getting KTFO on the ground. Thanks for the honest answer.

WD--Good answer. I think rolling backwards immediately isn't such a bad idea either. Seven's got a good point, as usual. I'm actually something of a guard player in an irony, considering my wrestling background

[rogue]

Merry, ever here of Mark Hatmaker?

BTW, What's your advice if the guys knees are in your armpits and he's trying to break his hands on your face? Shrimping just doesn't seem optimum at that point, and you can't sit up and pull him down.

BTW/BTW I had an instructor who also said he's used a variation the guard in a multiple fight situation.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by rogue
BTW, What's your advice if the guys knees are in your armpits and he's trying to break his hands on your face?

Bridge repeatedly, while working your arms under his legs. If he's that high up on you, he'll have to stop hitting you if you bridge quickly enough; he'll either have to post with his hands to avoid going face first into the ground over your head, or rear his weight back so far to stay on you that he won't be able to reach your face. Once you get your hands under his legs, keep bridging and shove him up and over your head. Once he's off you, turn over and get up as fast as you can.

If you can capture one of his wrists/arms while he's hitting you, you can bridge diagonally and roll him over in that direction, coming up in his guard, which will be easier on the back of your head than bridging on asphalt. I wouldn't necessarily count on capturing an arm if the guy's that high up and really going to town on your face, though, and bridging straight back on concrete is still a lot less painful than getting your head pounded into it.

[OdderMensch]

that he's better at breaking his hands then hitting my face. if he's practiced hard, he should be able to break his hand on the first shot!

or i'd try to bring my elbows up over my face, and try to elbow down into his thighs. scoot forward and try to get some distance/leverage to bump.

[The Willow Sword]

Why dont you tell us ALL how YOU would escape or reduce the harm done to you if some 200lb body was sitting on you pummeling your face.

oh will you give some unrealistic theory as everyone else is giving? probably so. :rolleyes:


here is what i would do if put or allowed myself be put in that situation,,,,pray i live through it,,,,once you are unconcious,,you dont really feel a thing. :)


TWS

[Merryprankster]

TWS missed the part where BJJ was a groundfighting style. I've also helped train fighters for MMA matches, so I've taken my share of nasty positions and shots on the ground. I've also gotten out of my share. Me, my training partners, our gyms fighters and anybody who has done an MMA fight have also. Nicely documented stuff witnessed recently by, in some cases, several thousand people. So much for "theory."

First, if I've got 200 lbs of person sitting on me, they're doing it wrong. Knees pinched in, crotch off the body is a better option. That way, you aren't relying on the other person for your balance points.

But on to my answer....

Assume the person is mounted, but not with their knees directly under my armpits. My hands are going to form a peekaboo type guard, elbows in tight, fingers curled and palms on my forehead. Then I'm going to bump up hard to throw their balance forward. I hope they have to post to keep from falling on their face, but it's not necessary.

If they post, I have two basic options:

1. Neck Bridge and roll (upa). Just like a wrestler would, basically. Trap one of the posted arms (How is pretty immaterial. I've used my head and shoulder), and go over that shoulder. You can trap the same side leg with your ankle if you like. Simple. Obviously, you need to grab that arm quickly and go. You can't just sit there or he'll recover and pound you. Sometimes hard to pull off against a good top position guy (wrestlers). He can't hit you very well as he's turning, and when he posts his arms are busy anyway.

2. Elbow escape. There are about 5 different variations I will use depending on which one is more appropriate. Off the bump, I immediately turn to my left side, and wedge my left elbow as far as I can into my opponent's right leg, keeping my right leg on the ground and moving my guard slightly so that it covers my face and now exposed right side of my head. As I turn, I use my right leg to push my butt out against my opponents left thigh, while using my elbow wedge to push out and up against his right thigh/knee, as I bring my left knee up to meet my elbow. This spreads out the opponent, removing his base, and keeping him from controlling my hips and body. My left knee and elbow will meet either inside or underneath his right knee. You can also do a variation where you place your right leg over top their right ankle as you turn. This is the version I prefer, but I don't search for it, and go with what I get.

Anyway, your left leg is free now, as long as your knee is in front of his. If you trap his right leg between yours, you have half-guard. This is great for some people. If you hug tight to his hips/thigh, you can avoid punishment, because he has to arch very far back to expose your face to blows. This puts him off balance and sweeping the guy becomes easier. I'm not a genius from half guard, so I usually execute a similar elbow escape type movement to put the opponent in a full guard. I'm an open guard guy, and I've got a LOT of options from guard.

However, lets assume I screwed up and the guy has good posture and is trying to throw punches at me. For the sake of argument, lets say he throws a right hand at my face. My hands are still up. As he throws his punch, he is opening up his right side. My left hand/forearm is going to go inside his arm and stiff arm him somewhere at his shoulder or upper arm--anywhere above the elbow is fine. My motion looks kinda like a karate type in to out block. As I'm doing this, I'm going to post up on my right shoulder slightly, and turn a bit onto my right side. This will make it easy to bring my left knee to my left elbow, and place my left foot on his right hip. What I now have is a "wall" created by my forearm and knee that his arm is outside of. I place my left hand on the outside of his right tricep, thumb tucked in to the side of my palm, and all four fingers above, but directly behind his elbow. This way, my hand directly counters any attempts he makes to pull backwards. My hand now tracks down his arm to his wrist, which I secure. I apply outward pressure with my left shin in the crook of his right elbow while pulling with my left hand (you should actually be doing this more or less from the start, once your hand is on his arm) to limit his arm movement and leverage so he cannot break my wrist grip easily.

As I posted up onto my right shoulder and turned slightly to my right, my right hand went out in almost exactly the same way to prevent a left hand shot from my opponent. I bring my right shin up in exactly the same way, with my right foot on his left hip. I am still on my right side, but this doesn't really change anything except the angle. Obviously, you can't be TOO far on your right :D. You might not get the block as high up on his arm, but you can adjust that later.

As I apply pressure on his right arm with my left shin, I use that pressure to "right myself," and come back to my back. Both shins are pressing out and the wrists are being tightly controlled during this time period. There are a ton of submission setups from this position and you can also just mule kick him backwards and get the heck up, if you're so inclined. If you know how to do it right, you can also kick him in the face. He can't punch you or stand upright (he can stand, but his posture will suck), if you can keep your shins out on his elbows and his wrist controlled. If he breaks free, it might open something up for you, or, back to square one and do it again.

Now, me, I prefer to keep my left foot in his hip, swivel my hips out to my right slightly, and put my right foot in his bicep while pulling down with my right hand so his elbow is bent over my right foot, extending my right leg hard, and straightening my left leg somewhat while maintaining wrist control. I like the sweep and submission options his extended, off-balance posture affords.

If I am forced to close guard, I am going to keep him close, preferably with overhooks so he can't hit me, or if I must, underhooks. I'll just keep my face buried in his stomach/chest as much as possible to reduce his leverage and punching power, and work to the shin in elbow position as quickly as possible (I don't NEED him to throw a punch...), submit him, or sweep him. You might have to try and slip and catch punches with your overhooks/underhooks ala sapp vs minotoro as you pull your knees in to break his balance...I'm not a closed guard wizard, although it's not too bad. I just prefer open guard and shin in elbows as a starting point.

If a guy is high-mounted under my armpits, then I usually try to roll up onto my shoulders and get my own feet hooked under his armpits, across his face, body, etc. to push him backwards and off of me. Under the armpits with your heels in front of his deltoids is about ideal. If you can't move him backwards, you use those hooks to pull yourself out the backdoor. Also, you can knee him HARD in the back along with a him bump to throw his balance forward and commence an elbow escape. You can also go out the back door if, instead of working him down your body, you wind up working him towards your head.

It's all about manipulating his balance and creating and shutting down space at the appropriate times. Of course, none of this works 100% of the time, but it beats flailing around on the ground while enraged hockey dad beats you dead.

Anyhoo, that's how I'd go about minimizing the damage.

TWS--Hope you enjoyed this long ass unrealistic theory I've never used, seen anyone else do, or given any real thought about. I haven't really fleshed out the details yet, but I'll let you know when they surface.

As for multiple opponents, I'd be doing the same type of stuff with my endpoint being a sweep as soon as I safely could so I can run, in the manner Seven pointed out. I might be toast, but it's no better or worse than being backed into a corner or surrounded either, IMO.

[Xebsball]

hey dudes, i had a dream today and "THE DEBIL" showed up before me
he told me the next person that makes a bjj post on a kung fu forum will have a horrible slow painful death, but not as painful as the next person that says "Bruce Lee" on the forum

[Merryprankster]

I wonder what Bruce Lee would have thought of BJJ.

Secondly Xebs, I loves ya, but my original post wasn't BJJ related. I asked how their styles addressed harm reduction on the ground. I was then challenged to provide my answer. Seeing as my background is wrestling and BJJ, I answered the question from that framework. I would have answered from a Hsing-I framework... except that I don't do Hsing I.

Don't like it? Take it up with the admin.

[Chang Style Novice]

Hmmm©©©I was once told on this forum that kneeing a mounted opponent in the back or pulling him off with your feet couldn't be done, because it required an inhuman level of flexibility© Now, unless I'm reading it wrong, that's part of what MP has recommended as his strategy©

[Merryprankster]

Context. I remember the conversation in question--it was about a knee for damage as I recall, and the head was listed as a possible target.

Kneeing an opponent in the head or back for any sort of damage isn't really feasible. You're kneeing him to get him off-balance combined with a bump. Really, the bump is more important than the knee. If you have trouble bumping combined with the knee then you should just bump and turn hard. It's not super easy to get out of a good, established high mount. You're just going to **** him off if you try to knee him to hurt him.

Secondly, the legs thing is HIGHLY variable. It depends on how long you are relative to how long the other guy is, among other postural issues. I'm six feet tall and have trouble doing this to anybody my height and people shorter than me rarely ever get this on me. However, getting your legs up in the air and trying to get him off balance so you can come out the backdoor is a viable strategy regardless of height. It's not what I call high percentage stuff. If you're highmounted, it's a bad day. All the times I have used this, I have come out the backdoor. I've never taken any one straight to their backs, and I am very flexible, although not freakishly so.

[Chang Style Novice]

You remember the conversation better than I do© Thanks for the clarification©

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
Why dont you tell us ALL how YOU would escape or reduce the harm done to you if some 200lb body was sitting on you pummeling your face.

I believe I did, as soon as the question was asked.



oh will you give some unrealistic theory as everyone else is giving? probably so. :rolleyes:


Mmm. I've done exactly what I said to guys who outweigh me by 20 lbs. I've seen my coach, who tops the scales at 160, wet, in boots, after a real heavy meal, do it to guys who top 300lbs. But we're actually mutants, so obviously my advice is unrealistic theory for you normal folk. :rolleyes:

Merry's advice is a lot more comprehensive than mine (probably because he's been grappling for years, and I've been grappling for months) but both of our suggestions work, and I know because I've seen both of our suggestions work.



here is what i would do if put or allowed myself be put in that situation,,,,pray i live through it,,,,

This, on the other hand, I've never seen work for anyone.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
I wonder what Bruce Lee would have thought of BJJ.

Secondly Xebs, I loves ya, but my original post wasn't BJJ related. I asked how their styles addressed harm reduction on the ground. I was then challenged to provide my answer. Seeing as my background is wrestling and BJJ, I answered the question from that framework. I would have answered from a Hsing-I framework... except that I don't do Hsing I.

Don't like it? Take it up with the admin.

LOL :D i cant believe you still take me seriously
and the admins are eeeevil :cool:

[Volcano Admim]

you who call i?

[Chang Style Novice]

After reading MPs post several times, it occurs to me this is a very refined and specific form of "cover up and try to wriggle away©"

smileys not working, so insert tongue stuck out smiley here©

[rubthebuddha]

from reading MPs stuff again too, and comparing it to what i do know about anything standup or on the ground, one thought hit me as to what they have in common -- you gotta practice the hell out of it to make it work in real time. a punch is a punch, a scoot is a scoot, but to make it work, you gotta own it.

sorry for pointing out the obvious, but lately that part has been lacking in my own training, and since i'm kicking myself for it, i thought i'd kick you guys too.

[rogue]

MP, sounds like the old standby that I was taught oh so long ago. I do remeber learning the hard way to not go for my partners open centerline.

What are the common counters to what you described? Odds are that a street thug won't know them but it'd be interesting to know what someone with even just an OK ground game would do.

[Merryprankster]

Father, good point about getting both hands underneath. Gotta watch out for that though--if you get one in before the other, a mounted triangle is imminent. Also, a good guy might pin your arms to your side for a little bit while he's pounding on you. We all make mistakes, and that one's a bit painful :D


CSN, yeah--this is a highly refined version of cover and wriggle. When I wrestled, we had a nickname for new guys--"fish." That's exactly what a guy with little grappling experience looks like on a mat. They're all force and knees and elbows and headbutts and they're bucking around like a crazy man. You almost have to go hard on them to keep from getting a black eye! They gas quick too. Even the in shape ones. It's exhausting to move without knowing what to do because you have no idea where to push (or not). The real problem with grappling for almost everybody is that what you would instictively do is wrong, 99% of the time, until you learn. Punching/kicking doesn't have that problem nearly so badly. Sure, an untrained guy looks awkward and silly by comparison to a boxer, but there is nothing principly "wrong," with putting your hands in front of your face and turning slightly while trying to evade the shots coming at your head, and whacking them back--you just have to learn to do it in a well-balanced way that doesn't leave you open for attack. With grappling, the instinct to reach back, or turn stomach down to get up, or stiff arm somebody up to get them off you etc, is just flat out wrongly principled.

Rogue, IMO there are three primary ways to deal with it, which, oddly, correspond to the three "primary," MMA types:

1. A sprawl and brawler is interested in getting back to his feet. He'll attempt to free his wrists, disengage, and stomp on you, ala Silva vs sakuraba, or sakuraba's strategy against Renzo and Royce (keep whacking their legs while they are on your back.)

2. A ground and pounder is going to hang out in your guard and pound on you at every opportunity. If they get by your legs, fine. If not, that's fine too. They'll work to free their wrists, base up hard, maybe stack you, and start pounding on your head. A little submission defence, well practiced, and a great base, has allowed most of the American wrestlers to fare well with this strategy. Igor Vovchanchin has also used this well, and Bob Sapp was doing it nicely to Minotauro before he got tired and got subbed. A lot of the wrestlers like to work for a pin position and pound you with knees and fists from there.

3. A submission guy is going to be hunting to submit you and/or get by your legs. He's unlikely to let you up easily because he'll have to take you down again. That's BJJ fight strategy 101--pass guard, achieve dominant position, maul opposition. However there are a host of leg locks that also work just fine, and many people are reasonably well versed in them if they are submission types. He's gotta free his wrists too.

Basically, freeing the wrist is your first step.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Father, good point about getting both hands underneath. Gotta watch out for that though--if you get one in before the other, a mounted triangle is imminent. Also, a good guy might pin your arms to your side for a little bit while he's pounding on you. We all make mistakes, and that one's a bit painful :D

MP, agreed - It's important to work the hands in together, to avoid the choke. And if the guy pins your hands, just keep bridging to keep him off balance, until you can get them free and push. Of course, if the guy's really good, he may keep them pinned longer than you can keep bridging... in which case, you were probably screwed anyway, but at least you tried :D

I prefer to upa into the guard and go for a leglock, myself, but in the situation rogue described (knees in the armpits) that's pretty tough to do.

[Chang Style Novice]

Waitasec...you call newcomers 'fish'?

Is this BJJ or prison we're talking about?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Is this BJJ or prison we're talking about?

Royce would choke Vernon Schillinger!



:D

[rogue]

Merry, so did you ever hear of Mark Hatmaker? He's got a book out and some videos. Then again who doesn't.:)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
CSN,

I just figured all these complete stylists would have some way of not getting KTFO on the ground.

I think "complete" may not be indicative of fighting in all ranges - at least not now. with the ice in the north and marsh in the south, nobody wanted to be on the ground, like now. But, then it probably wasn't an issue like it is now, either. I wonder how many people actually fought on the ground back then, and what they did when they were there.

When I hear most MA talk about a complete martial art, they are saying that it offers self defense, health benefits and has philosophical and spiritual benefits - all you need to be a "complete" being

[Merryprankster]

Seven,

You have a good point! I think you are probably right, in a certain light. But there are way too many times I've heard--you don't need to learn that--you just need to get better at what you do.

Unfortunately, as you well know, that's not necessarily the case.

Personally, I believe a complete style is one that has a complete fight strategy capable of dealing with foreseeable situations. That doesn't mean, of course, that you have to have a different answer for every attack, or that your answer will look exactly the same as the next guys--if I pass guard and kick your ass, or stand up and kick your ass, it's kind of immaterial. I do think, however, that getting back up should be one of those foreseeable types of situations. That's more all I was getting at.

Rogue, who's mark hatmaker?

[yenhoi]

Maybe "someone" should start a thread catagorizing the various two-person ground "positions" and how to move from "position" to "position."

Or Ill just post a link to bjj.org.

:D

Also mention while Im at it, the fighers notebook, which is a book written about the thread I just mused, with step-by-step pictures and instructions. :rolleyes:

[rogue]

Rogue, who's mark hatmaker? That's what I'm asking you!:p

I came across a book on ground fighting of his at barnes and noble. It looked pretty good to my untrained eye.
Hatmaker (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1884654177/qid=1040523291/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-7082744-3368851?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

[No_Know]

Not all on the ground is, get's you mounted. I think waiting and watching and defending as need be is how to go if I'm downed (tripped, fell, pushed, knocked) I think I would strike strikes.(from the sides or top or under). No advance. Get-up when seems O.K. when other seems going to hold off while I get up. Or stay down and fight from there.

For your situations of guy on top...fingers at top of neck (diagonally down); elbow level with top of forehead; bottom of forearm over ear. Other hand--top of forearm on face against otherside of nse and back of fingers diagonally on otherside breast; (forearm covers opposite side eye). Tricep to the ground.

I end-up on the side mostly. But this seperates my legs. I curl like withering toward my hip, along the ground. Twisting my torso groundwise forward. My torso arches and my tricep-to-the-ground-arm supports.

The torso should be conditioned front and back because this side arching has that area vulnerable but guards the neck and head.

It seems person is now on your hip. This is an area for offsetting balance, rolling them back over your hip, dropping them through your crotch (quick well timed turn, snatch the shin from the outside, press the knee (this seems as though it rotates the thigh in the hip un-nicely). Also, while arched, the leg towards which you were turned might get off ground (you might could get under itstraightn it and go down on (fall on) to the knee, straightening the leg; you should have the opportunity to hyperextend or leg lock).

[SevenStar]

you lost me on that one, man.

[No_Know]

There's a stand-up exercise where you lock your fingers behind your head/neck. You then twist. Your shoulders/elbows kind of alternate trying to swing around to pointing front.

In what I had said, there was a way to cover the head that I thought was different than just doing it. It's designed to have no hole when turning to one side. But reducing harm to the head is only helpful. There must be more. There is reading the attacks and block/deflect as they come. It's iffy and without endurance you tire before them . Even if person tires first or at the same time as you. There is their weight on you.

Using the cover for the head I mentioned, one of your arms can be used to make your body arch, from hips to elbow. This arch after a twist like the stand-up exercise makes a bow that repositions the person on you.

From the side arch you can wrench a leg in the hip, lock a leg at the knee, or you can more easily off balance the persone while nearly eliminating harm to the face.