What the?!

[red5angel]

What in gods name is going on?!?!? It's like the whole world is starting to get antsy and the US seems caught in the middle!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/12/12/nkorea.us.reax/index.html

[STUDD WILSON]

Hey, if they want nukes so bad lets send em a couple!

[MonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by STUDD WILSON
Hey, if they want nukes so bad lets send em a couple!

The problem is that they want them as a present for Japan.

They seem to feel that the effect has been "all but used up" from that last pair we sent over to Hirohito.

[red5angel]

I'm thinking, everyone in the world who wants nukes wants them to use on someone right? So we hand out a few to those who want them, and obviously we keep the lions share. Then they use them on the people they want to, and eventually there will be no more people who want to use nukes on other people and the world can settle down into a utopia, after a few hundred years.

[Souljah]

yes but you do realise that most of the people who want the nukes intend on using them on the US

perhaps not related to this article, or is it?

hmm

[norther practitioner]

I'm more scared of those dirty bombs, however.....

We really don't know what would happen if one of these big freakin' bombs were to go off. It is actually one of the things that truely scares me when I think about it.

[Mr Punch]

LOL at Studd!

:mad: at Monkey B: you didn't send em to Hirohito, you sent em to a couple of million civilians. Not so ****ing funny.



LOL at the clarification: [quote]some nonce in the Oval OfficeThe U.S. official said the United States would make clear "we wish this is a step they do not take" Sounds like it has been translated back from the translation into Korean...! Or is this standard American nowadays?! :eek:

[Kristoffer]

make noodles not war

[ZIM]

It is regrettable that N. Korea is getting involved in all of this. That spells trouble brewing behind the scenes, mainly cuz they never were predictable to begin with. Part of the whole 'axis of evil' that shrub talks about.

FYI: Currently the atomic clock is set at seven minutes. (http://www.thebulletin.org/media/current.html) This will probly be updated soon enough to take current events into account. For comparison, check the history at that site.

[Stranger]

Mat,

I understand your horror at the result of the two atomic bombings, and I too regret the great loss of life, BUT it is a fact that even more Japanese would have had to die than the casualty figures at Hiroshima and Nagasaki in order to end the war. Additional American lives would have been lost as well, which you may or may not care about. Figure in the higher casualties in all occupied territories if the war had gone on and the even greater encroachment of the Soviets into northeast Asia (leading to more Koreans, Chinese, Manchurians, and Japanese being killed or oppressed), and the logic behind the use of the a-bombs can begin to be justified.

[Mr Punch]

Thanks Stranger, for your considered answer.

I can fully appreciate that the nukes saved lives. And of course I care that it saved American and Japanese and other Asian lives (not to mention English and many others - we still had units in the Pacific War, my great-uncle was killed in one).

I think war has its place, I have no illusions on that front. But I didn't agree with Pearl Harbour, and I didn't agree with the American firebombing of Tokyo (which was considerably more horrific than the nukes in terms of loss of life, and protraction of suffering in terms of emotional damage, anticipation, and ways of dying)... any more than agreed with the firebombing of Dresden, or the Blitz on London, Coventry or Liverpool.

I also know that what I agree or disagree with makes for jack **** on this fat hill of beans, I have no illusions on that front either.

The problem was, and maybe I'm being a little oversensitive cos I live here, I just thought Monkey Boy's gag was about as funny and tasteful as his whole family dying of cancer.

No biggy. The first half was funny.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by ZIM
It is regrettable that N. Korea is getting involved in all of this. That spells trouble brewing behind the scenes, mainly cuz they never were predictable to begin with. Part of the whole 'axis of evil' that shrub talks about.


It is also regrettable that shrub is not doing anything to turn the axis of evil into an axis of all that is nice and fluffy. If his administration would recognize the efforts of South Korea in attempting discourse, he wouldn't put their backs up any more either.

It seems he is trying to push the Koreans into doing something stupid. Maybe similar to the way that he pushed al Qaeda: and no, I'm not saying that they weren't a bunch of fanatics anyway, but the Bush administration playing the middle eastern and Islamic fundamentalist game of brinksmanship can only perpetuate the cycle.

Whose regime is unpredictable again?! :D

You know, I almost wish we were back in the Cold War. It suddenly seems so much more friendly than all these ****ing hot ones! :D

[Liokault]

You cant say that nuking japan was right or wrong as it really was total war with no real civilians.

The main problem with USA nuking japan is that it set a precident the the use of nuclear arms is ok, is effective and can be done pre-emptively.

So now every one wants a nuke and they are all looking to the example set during the second world war.

And who are we to say that N Korea should not have nukes? should N Korea be able to say that America should not have nuclear weapons?

[Sho]

I knew it! They're working on their Icarus project.

[MonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by Mat
LOL at Studd!

:mad: at Monkey B: you didn't send em to Hirohito, you sent em to a couple of million civilians. Not so ****ing funny.

I have only one thing to say about that, we nuked the *******s who bore, bred and suported those who perpertrated the Rape of Nanking, Invasion of Manchuria and the Long March of Bataan.

They got off easy, so shut your mouth and save some of those calories for your starving sense of morality.

[Laughing Cow]

Monkeyboy.

The fire bombing of Tokyo and other Cities are still the biggest War crimes ever commited by the USA.

Tokyo alone had an estimated 100.000 CIVILIAN deaths.

When you got NO **** on your stick than you can talk big.

Just my 0.2 cents worth.

[Stacey]

lost family in hiroshima and personally was on the recieving end of hate that came from the cancer of those nukes......and yet it was the right thing to do.

No one would be speaking Japanese if we hadn't

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Liokault
You cant say that nuking japan was right or wrong as it really was total war with no real civilians.

No. I can say that it was wrong. Believe me, having met many Japanese people of that age, there were many many very real civilians. Please explain your statement.



Monkeyboy has spoken
I have only one thing to say about that, we nuked the *******s who bore, bred and suported those who perpertrated the Rape of Nanking, Invasion of Manchuria and the Long March of Bataan.
Oh, OK. My mistake. We should have killed them all. Maybe I should start today...:rolleyes:

Not racist much?! Care to tell us your blameless ancestry and justify your existance?

Funny, I'm also friends with three families of three generations of Nanking Chinese living here, who would be just as horrified at your statement.





MonkeyBoy
They got off easy, so shut your mouth and save some of those calories for your starving sense of morality.
HumanMan 1
Mat,
I understand your horror at the result of the two atomic bombings, and I too regret the great loss of life, ...
HumanMan 2
Thanks Stranger, for your considered answer...:rolleyes:

[Stranger]

Mat,

I think Liokault did not mean that "no citizens died". "Total War" and the quest for autarky were very popular political ideologies following WW I. The world wondered, "How can a nation that was performing well on the battlefield (Germany) lose so decisively and completely?" The answer was that they were not self sufficient. The Allies did not just shoot Central Power soldiers; they attacked supply lines, lowered the quality of life back in Germany, and destroyed Germany's ability to maintain its effective fighting force. Many nations took to learn from Germany's costly lesson.

Japan believed in the concept as well (if you want to get a feel for the theory and how it applies to the situation read Japan Prepares for Total War: The Search for Economic Security, 1919-1941 by Micahael A. Barnhart).
The theory, when applied to Liokault's statement, would argue that although the bombing victims in Japan were civilians, they were supporting the war effort directly or indirectly and linked to morale and thus viable military targets. Japan held this as their policy and so too did the US. This is part of the roots of the Allies demand for "unconditional surrender".

My earlier comment about you "possibly not caring about American casualties" was not to characterize you as an insensitive person, but simply acknowledging that it would be understandable if you had lost family or friends in the bombings you might not want or be able to emotionally detach from the event to 'appreciate' the the rationale of using the bomb. It wasn't a dis. I was respecting your grief.

************************************************

To the statement that the US firebombing of Tokyo was one of the greatest war crimes in US history, I just want to point out that the US did the same thing in Germany (just so this discussion doesn't get racial, as it often does). I'm not flaming Laughing Cow, as his post did not suggest this.

************************************************** *
LioKault,

North Korea's possession of nukes is scary because they a) threaten their neighbors (S. Korea and Japan) without any external provocation and b) they sell their technology to nations that have used weapons of mass destruction as a terror weapon (ie. Iraq against its own people, Pakistan as a sabre to rattle at India, etc.)

**************************************************
Sho,

North Korea's govt. has filed a complaint against the Bond producers for their portrayal of North Koreans as dangerous wildcards.
I think it is ironic since their worst PR comes right out of their own mouths.

[MonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Monkeyboy.

The fire bombing of Tokyo and other Cities are still the biggest War crimes ever commited by the USA.

Tokyo alone had an estimated 100.000 CIVILIAN deaths.

When you got NO **** on your stick than you can talk big.

Just my 0.2 cents worth.

The Japanese killed more Chinese in a day by hand then we did with our Atomics.

Neither the US nor the Chinese started that war, it was unprovoked. The Japanese wanted to use our oil and steel to kill and conquer Asia, we refused and they murdered both military and civilians at Pearl in retaliation.

We managed to defeat them without the same dishonor that they brought on themselves with a sneal attack. We did it without forcing entire civilizations into slavery, prostitution and genocide.

Since our response to their aggression left less Japanese dead than they had killed themselves, YES Americans have less "crap on our stick than they do."

[MonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by Mat
Not racist much?! Care to tell us your blameless ancestry and justify your existance?

Funny, I'm also friends with three families of three generations of Nanking Chinese living here, who would be just as horrified at your statement.
:rolleyes:

1. Since I said nothing nor implyed anything racist, go take a leap.

2. You do not speak for the dead of China, so shut up.

If you go back and read, I assume you can read, you'll see this is about Koreans hating the Japanese. They want nukes because nothing was ever done to make reparations to them for what they suffered at the hands of Japan in the 30's and 40's.

Japan was an aggressor in that war and since they can't go back in time and change that, they will forever pay for it. We all as individuals and countries and races make mistakes and the only way to get better is not to forget, whitewash or lie about the past.

In America selling white people into slavery led to selling black people into slavery, which led to a power struggle, which led to war, which showed us our error and after 100 years of peace and acceptance we were able to come up with Civil Rights Laws and a handful of progress. We didn't go back to slavery. Japan lies about the past to itself and others, still maintains it's arrorgance and the koreans feel that they will go back to their old ways. It's been 60 years and they haven't moved toward reparations, they moved towards denial.

You can't correct a mistake if you don't admit it happened nor accept reponsibilty for it.

Japan lies in it's history textbooks about the war and the Koreans are justified in their anger, even today some are weak enough to believe that there might have been another way to end the war. Sorry there wasn't, not without killing them all and by the way, we didn't. We had a dozen destroyers loaded with nerve gas shells off their shores in case the bombs were duds. Trust me, they got off easy.

It is cold and hard fact that Japan intended to conquer out nation and use it for slave labor. Germany also planned to do the same to the Soviet block.

You may like who you live with and where you are, that's fine. If you do not like history because you now reside there, that's no excuse to run from reality. Your hosts may be the nicest people in the world, I hope they are but history can't be changed. If it could, we'd all spend it re-living our mistakes but since it can't, that's no excuse to make excuses or create revisionist history.

Japan made war in the name of racial superiority, so please stop your useless rant about racism. If your family ever is murdered in the name of racial superiority, I sincerely hope after time you can forget about it and tolerate people who think whoever did it are just as grand and blameless as the Japanese you reside with now.

P.S. As for my "blameless ancestors", my family came from Catholic Ireland, maternal and paternal family lines have both lived in America since the colonies. My Mother's family had two brothers exiled to Botany Bay Colony but the transports Captain sold them here as labor in Georgia in the early 1700's. My father's family got here 60 years later, he was a professional soldier serving with the Hessians as a Grenadier in the American Revolution.

[ZIM]

Monkeyboy is correct. We shouldn't forget what beasts the Japanese were/can be when too involved with nationalism. Further, it was war. They certainly would be reminding us of that [and rubbing our noses in it] if they'd won. They're whiners, and I say 'nuts to them'.

And he has the good taste to be descended from a colonial mick, too! :) ['course german and irish....yeaarrrgggh! Whiskey and schnapps don't mix!];)

[Mr Punch]

Monkeyboy, you are missing my point.

I never claimed to speak for the Chinese dead.

I'm certainly no apologist for Japanese history, nor their shameful revisionism of it and I challenge this more often, more directly and probably more sensitively than you ever have.

I also encounter racism from my kindly hosts every day, so don't lecture me on what you suppose I feel towards them. It isn't for the forum.

My basic complaint with you is that I didn't like your 'joke'.

I accept that you feel it perfectly justified. I still don't like it. C'est la vie. If you can't respond without telling me to shut up, or being similarly ill-mannered, there is clearly nothing to be gained from either of us continuing this 'discussion'.



Stranger: thank you, I was missing Liokault's point about Total War as a philosophical standpoint. While I agree it's necessary to hit the infrastructure, I still don't agree with indiscriminate mass attacks on the general population, then or now.

[Laughing Cow]

Mat.

Forget MonkeyBoy, ZIM and MightyB they are jingoists.

No matter what you say they still think that they are right and that everybody besides the USA is the pits and wrong.

For them everybody else is wrong and only they are right.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[MonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Mat.

Forget MonkeyBoy, ZIM and MightyB they are jingoists.

No matter what you say they still think that they are right and that everybody besides the USA is the pits and wrong.

For them everybody else is wrong and only they are right.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

Your well thought out and intellectual reply was appreciated. I enjoyed the way you introduced facts and numbers to bolster and support your argument. The way you addressed everything as civily as I did was astounding, what a gentleman.

By not calling anyone names, losing your head or making assumptions not supported by the facts or the information supplied here, you showed you are a true man of letters.

Not.

Also Jingoists, as a name of a proper group, should have been capitalized.

[MonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by Mat
Monkeyboy, you are missing my point.

I never claimed to speak for the Chinese dead.

I'm certainly no apologist for Japanese history, nor their shameful revisionism of it and I challenge this more often, more directly and probably more sensitively than you ever have.

I also encounter racism from my kindly hosts every day, so don't lecture me on what you suppose I feel towards them. It isn't for the forum.

My basic complaint with you is that I didn't like your 'joke'.

I accept that you feel it perfectly justified. I still don't like it. C'est la vie. If you can't respond without telling me to shut up, or being similarly ill-mannered, there is clearly nothing to be gained from either of us continuing this 'discussion'.

First, this is a reply from someone who made a joke about the idea of my entire family dying from cancer.

This is a reply from someone who attacked my posts in this forum, not the other way around. I am somewhat amazed that as a an aggressor he now takes such exception to my active defense. One would think he did not re-read his posts before he returned to this thread to make more trouble.

My offense, I answered a query as to why Koreans felt the historical need to protect themselves and their interests from their Japanese neighbors and their drive to aquire the only weapons which have ever discouraged such Imperialism.

Fact is, they are as racist as everyone else, the problem is how they acted upon those ideas.

Everyone has preferences and prejudgments yet, not everyone acts on them.

Many feel superior, some seek to make that exclusive, some try to lower the bar, some to raise it and some even to raise others to it.

The Japanese are now paying for an exclusion policy they rendered over half a century ago, the Koreans are merely repaying that debt of pain with some fear. We should all hope/pray they don't add interest to that debt table.

[Laughing Cow]

Mnkeyboy.

Do you know the difference between South and North Korea?

South Korea is VERY pro-Japan and the south-koreans love many things japanese.

At the moment neither north nor south korea is too enthusiastic about the US goverment.

Have fun.

[Cipher]

The scaries part about Japan being attacked is that the population is so condensed that one good bomb could wipe out a huge number of civilians.

[Laughing Cow]

Cipher agreed.

Japan has a few important centres around which the whole country revolves.

Tokyo, Shizuoka, Osaka & Nagoya.

More than a 1/4 of the population lives/works in those.

Cheers.

[David Jamieson]

ok, so, what are some viable solutions?

as opposed to pointing out the angles of a problem?

cheers

[ewallace]

Pardon me, but as I understand it, N. Korea had a secret nuke program running in violation of the 1994 treaty. And now N. Korea is stating that it is the fault of the U.S. that it can no longer comply with the treaty? Am I missing something here? I'm really in no mood to heavily research everything that has gone on here so can someone 'splain this thing in a nutshell?

I was reading this article too. And no I don't only read news @ CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/east/01/03/nkorea.us/index.html

[Laughing Cow]

ewallace.

Here is the short and dirty.

In 1994 N. Korea decided to moth-ball their nuclear reactors as according to the treaty the US and other countries would ship it oil to generate electricity instead of using nuclear power.

In November the US, Japan and other countries stopped those oil-shipments due to some difficulty and the US said that the N Koreans somehow didn't conform to the treaty.
i.e. punishment technique. Bad Boy = no oil to keep your people warm.

In reply to that N Korea stated that the need that oil for electricity and it was "guaranteed" to them under the treaty.

Therefor they considered that the US broke the treaty and thus are entitled to restart their reactors to generate electricity.

Tell me who is right and who is wrong?

Hope this helps.

[ewallace]

Well LC, first I know from your other posts that you have some extreme dislike for the US, and it seems your statements are based on opinions rather than facts. From what I gathered, the "some difficulty" that you referred to was that N. Korea had a secret nuclear weapons program, which violated that treaty. So if that is the case, which is what I am trying to figure out here, then N. Korea is definitely wrong.

[Laughing Cow]

ewallace.

Not a hate, but a very strong dislike and doubting a lot of things I hear from the US-camp until proof has been shown.
Till the facts are shown and known, many things have to be based on opinion.

I also don't think that the US Goverment is open and honest when it comes to their intentions/dealings regarding the rest of the world.

Recently it seems that anything, anybody is wrong and breaking some sort of agreement. Heck, even BOEING and Hughes are now being slammed by their OWN goverment for doing what they do best (sell technology).

Not sure what to think about the N. Korea/US issue, the IAEA was monitoring them.
The alarm and accusations again came NOT from the monitoring party but the US that again has convincing proof.

IF the US was really that woried about the N Korean nuclear capabilities why did they not ask for the 8.000 spend rods to be destroyed??

I see a strong pattern developing and to me and many others it doesn't not smell sweet and healthy.

Just my opinion naturally.

[ewallace]

This is exactly what I hoped to avoid. I am trying to form an opinion based on facts. Thanks anyway.

[Laughing Cow]

ewallace.

I honestly doubt that anybody here has the actual facts.

Most of the Guys here go according to News Media or goverment issued publications.

Seeya.