Home Training tips ?

[JaRmEz]

just wondetring if anyone had any hoem training tips for wing chun i currently do 3 two hour sessions of wing chun a week and have been going for about 5-6 weeks now i know the first section of the first form and some chi sau and i was just wondering if i could get some training tips ? like a routeen or somthing that u use yourself that i can do at home without much or any equipment ? thanks in advance guys

[cobra]

Do the first form or what you know of it really slow except for the strikes. Do a lot of chain punches concentrating on your technique. Work on your stance and stepping as this will take a while to become comfortable with.

[JaRmEz]

ok thanks alot man i know the first and second section of the first form and i have been practising them aswell as my chain punches i found the web site http://www.wingchuninteractive.com VERY usfull in joging my memory to remember it i was just wondering how long should i spend on sui lam tau in my lessons a few months weeks or wot ? i do 6 hours a week in 3 lessons also aswell as these exercises is there anyway i can improve my speed and strenth more ? well more my speed i am worried about another question i have is about kicking in there much of it in Wing chun i have learned the cresent kick is tha the only kind of kick i wil learn ? lol sorry to trouble u guys with my n00b questions :D

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by JaRmEz
just wondetring if anyone had any hoem training tips for wing chun i currently do 3 two hour sessions of wing chun a week and have been going for about 5-6 weeks now i know the first section of the first form and some chi sau and i was just wondering if i could get some training tips ? like a routeen or somthing that u use yourself that i can do at home without much or any equipment ? thanks in advance guys

Chi sau after 5-6 weeks? Thats way too soon. You should stick to dan shi (single sticking hands) for a few months at least. Otherwise you will develop very sloppy habbits. I recommend working on your balance. Try chainpunching on one leg or changing direction. Also work on footwork drills.

[UltimateFighter]

As to your question regarding kicks. There are 8 kicks in wing chun, 2 in the second form and 6 in the dummy form. They are all 'stamp' type thrusting kicks rather than snap kicks.

[JaRmEz]

hmm ok the balance thing sounds fun ill give it a try and as for the chi sau we have done some single sticky hands i found it easy but it just wore myt arms out realy fats like in bout 7 mins my arms were knacked lol is this too soon ? to be traing it ?

[JaRmEz]

would u recomend starting kick boxing to even out my style ? cuz my sifu does kickboxing on thursdays i could go to that aswell or is it a bad idea to mix wing chun with kicking ?

[Clint]

It is also good to practice shifting on your heels! You want to get in the habbit of that. Work on your stance alot, as well as working on keeping your body relaxed. Practice chain punches daily. :)

[wingchunalex]

practice all your techniques separtately standing still and with footwork,

I personally think that is more important than spending a lot of time on the form. do the form at what ever speed your sifu says to, but i wouldn't spend more than 10 minutes on it at day. maybe do it 2 or 3 times in the 10 minutes.

practice separate techniques. for example-do pak sau alternating hands standing still, then do it with step slide forward and backwards. then do the same thing with tan sau, then gaun sau, bong, and bil sau, etc. When you feel comfortable, mix the techniques up, pak, tan, bil, gaun, bong, tan, gaun, bil, ect. do it standing still and with footwork.

chain punch of corse.

practice staying on center a lot.

also do your chi sau in the air.

good luck, have fun:p

[TjD]

do lots of siu lim tau and chain punches (as said).

pay close attention to whats happening below your waist while you stand still. pay attention to your center of balance. learn how to relax your legs and the rest of your body into your stance. keep it simple, at the siu lim tau mindset (since your a beginner). focus on the little things! wing chun is simple at the beginning so you can focus on those simple (or not so simple) important things, like stance, the punch, relaxation.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by Clint
It is also good to practice shifting on your heels! You want to get in the habbit of that.

Im not really good at telling if people are kidding or not, but... you're joking... right?

[Grendel]

Hi Atleastimnotyou, :D

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
Im not really good at telling if people are kidding or not, but... you're joking... right?

I don't know if he was joking, but some of us in our lineage visualize it as turning on the heels at times. Ken and Ben tell us to turn on the whole foot in certain practice, but in certain other circumstances, in order to maintain position, we may turn on either the ball of the foot or the heel, depending.

Anyway, have you forgotten what it was like to be new and eager? :D JaRmEz is hoping for suggestions on what he can practice at home.

At the stage of learning Sil Nim Tao, practice your horse, and perform the tan sao, wu sau, fook sau portion slowly in the first third of the set. Concentrate on Chung Seen, the centerline. Once you learn side punching, practice that 100 times a day. When you learn Bil Mar, the chasing horse, practice that with good form. Get corrections and pointers from your teacher on all of these points. Perfect practice makes perfect. :)

Do all this and you lay the foundation for good Wing Chun.

Good luck,

[JaRmEz]

is the side punching ware you rotate your stance to punch to the side of you but in your original stance its in font ? does that make any sense ? also some of these terms im not familiare with like "horse" is that a translation from somthing else all people keep saying bill sau is that the same as bill the thign ware you extend your arm completly state with palm down i think its a block strike right ? (for the eyes and strate punches) my sifu told us for teh first section we have to concentrate and tence our arm muscles when doing it and do it nice and slow so ur arms feel knackerd after the form ? is this commen or even important i feel like its making my arm mucles bigger is that what its for ? i tryed that chain puncheing on one leg this mornign thats pretty kool takes some getting used to would anyoen say a good number of chain punches to do ? i do like 150 but that is pretty hard its about my limit oh and THANKS for all teh help guys realy apreciate it

[UltimateFighter]

It is actually incorrect to to refer to the Wing Chun/Tsun stance as a 'horse riding stance'. It is known as either a 'Goat riding stance' or an IRAS. Goat riding in reference to the fact that it is not as wide as the 'horse' stance as seen in Karate but more like riding a small goat, and IRAS in the WT version which means Inward Rotated Adduction Stance, adduction meaning the tension of the adductor muscles on the inner thigh.


For chainpunching, concentrate on doing sets like 10 reps of 3, 10 reps of 5. Do not concentrate on doing more than 5 at a time continuoisly. In reality it is not practical to throw more than 3-5 chainpunches at a time in a fight. Concentrate on keeping relaxed to get power and on the elbow coming upwards rather than focusing on the fist going forwards. Make sure that your hand is withdrawing to about a fist distance behind the opposite elbow when chainpunching. Many people have a tendency to withdraw the fist too short in order to give the appearance of fast punches. Power is just as important.

Your arms should get tired in dan chi and chi sau. This is part of training. Your body must become used to these positions and as it adapts it will get less painful. But it will take time. Train the forms with tension in the legs and forearms. This should be tiring rather than relaxing, although SNT can also be trained as a relaxation method like Chi-Gung. However for wing chun practice it should be trained with tension in these areas but relaxation in the rest of the upper body.

[yuanfen]

Ultimate fighter sez:It is actually incorrect to to refer to the Wing Chun/Tsun stance as a 'horse riding stance'. It is known as either a 'Goat riding stance' or an IRAS. Goat riding in reference to the fact that it is not as wide as the 'horse' stance as seen in Karate but more like riding a small goat, and IRAS in the WT version which means Inward Rotated Adduction Stance, adduction meaning the tension of the adductor muscles on the inner thigh
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct incorrect depends on the pontiff. The stance, the horse,
the ma are all used widely and interchangeably in many wing chun circles. BTW I do not deliberately tense the abductor muscles on the inner thigh- and I do just fine. I do not object to others doing it differently. joy chaudhuri

[JaRmEz]

wow thanks for that


For chainpunching, concentrate on doing sets like 10 reps of 3, 10 reps of 5. Do not concentrate on doing more than 5 at a time continuoisly. In reality it is not practical to throw more than 3-5 chainpunches at a time in a fight. Concentrate on keeping relaxed to get power and on the elbow coming upwards rather than focusing on the fist going forwards. Make sure that your hand is withdrawing to about a fist distance behind the opposite elbow when chainpunching. Many people have a tendency to withdraw the fist too short in order to give the appearance of fast punches. Power is just as important.

this realy helps i completly agree with that and about the punching upward why would that be ? just wondering cuz i am 6,5 feet tall and i cant realy see a situation ware i would need to punch up unelss its just for the excersie or somthing

[UltimateFighter]

Read my post again carefully. I said focus on the ELBOW coming upwards rather than the fist going forwards. In other words, power in wing chun comes from the elbow. Rather than concentrating on the fist itself, concentrate on the elbow popping up as the arm locks out. This automatically propels the fist forwards. The punches themselves should be aimed directly towards the centreline, so you are punching in a straight line not upwards.

[Clint]

Atleastimnotyou said - Im not really good at telling if people are kidding or not, but... you're joking... right?



No, I am not joking! In my school we always practice shifting. And yes, we do shift on our heels. Do you shift on the balls of your feet? We also do chain punching drills, and shift on every 5th punch, ON OUR HEELS!

[yuanfen]

AIMNY: same old, same old.... why would Clint be necessarily joking. There are lots of good folks who turn on their heels... and no they are not necessarily easy to uproot.

Individual mileage can vary-no matter where you turn.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by Clint

Do you shift on the balls of your feet?

No. we shift on our whole foot, feet flat.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
It is actually incorrect to to refer to the Wing Chun/Tsun stance as a 'horse riding stance'.

You only say this out of ignorance. No one cited "horse riding stance." Horse means ma, or stance. Since I was addressing a beginner, I tried to keep it simple, but obviously, I wasn't simple enough for you. The horse that I meant for beginner (and advanced) practice is the yee gee kim yeung ma (or mar). The chasing horse is called bil ma (mar).


It is known as either a 'Goat riding stance' or an IRAS.

No again. Kim yeung ma translates into "goat clamping stance."


For chainpunching, concentrate on doing sets like 10 reps of 3, 10 reps of 5.

Nah. Do a hundred at a time to finish the Sil Nim Tao when you are practicing at home.


Power is just as important.

Power is not important. That's a complete misconception. Probably a Britishism, since it certainly doesn't originate in Hong Kong Wing Chun.


Your arms should get tired in dan chi and chi sau. This is part of training.

No again. Your arms should never tire before your horse does. You should be engaging your horse, not using upper body strength. I'm surprised that you don't know all this.


Train the forms with tension in the legs and forearms.

Are you deliberately trying to misinform? No, of course there should be no tension in the legs and forearms.


This should be tiring rather than relaxing, although SNT can also be trained as a relaxation method like Chi-Gung. However for wing chun practice it should be trained with tension in these areas but relaxation in the rest of the upper body.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Thanks for sharing the Wing Chun knowledge that you pulled out of your ass. :rolleyes:

Regards,

[S.Teebas]

Grendel is correct.

[JaRmEz]

well i cant be sure if im right im just going on what my sifu said and that was
to do the formc orrectly you must completly tense your forarm and upper arm and move slowly tense them so hard that at first your arm starts to shake he also said if it dont knakcer your arms out then your doing it wrong and that it shoudl always do that cuz i should always be pushing myself

[JaRmEz]

i sorry i 4got to say that its not the whole form he says to do it just the first sectiion the second section we do realy fast with power and i have not done any REAL work on the third but i think its skil trainging or soming

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by Grendel

You only say this out of ignorance. No one cited "horse riding stance." Horse means ma, or stance. Practice is the yee gee kim yeung ma (or mar). The chasing horse is called bil ma (mar).

'Ma' is in reference to horse riding stance or horse. Yes, that is what 'horse' means. And that is what separates it from karate.

[quote]
Kim yeung ma translates into "goat clamping stance."

Goat clamping? Goat riding? You really are into petty euphanisms. And in WT the stance is IRAS. Do not talk of what it should be called if you have no idea.



Power is not important. That's a complete misconception. Probably a Britishism, since it certainly doesn't originate in Hong Kong Wing Chun.

WTF?!!!!!! What kind of martial art are you attempting to learn? Power comes from relaxation. It is VITALLY important, and anyone who practices wing chun is aiming to exert maximum power with minimum effort. Jeez, you really should think about what your doing before trying to do it.



Your arms should never tire before your horse does. You should be engaging your horse, not using upper body strength.

It is not a case of using upper body strength. The forearms should be tensed and the rest of the upperbody should be relaxed when practicing the form. In chi sau the aim is to be soft but not weak. There must be a constant slight pressure exerted in the forarm. This is how wing chun works.



Of course there should be no tension in the legs and forearms.
No tension in the legs either? Now you seem to have contradicted even yourself LOL.

Hmmmm, a complete beginner such as yourself should really not be trying to inform anyone of anything.

[JaRmEz]

now now i just wanted peoples thoughts and help there is no need to argue abviously its been tought differently who is to say which way is right well maybe some1 but i dunno who there is no need to argue about this even if som1 is wrong they were just rtying to help :D

[kj]

Hello Ultimate.


Originally posted by UltimateFighter


Goat clamping? Goat riding? You really are into petty euphanisms.


I believe Grendel is referring to the translation from Chinese. Do you know it?



And in WT the stance is IRAS. Do not talk of what it should be called if you have no idea.


Oops. Your point could have been stated without getting personal or unfriendly.



WTF?!!!!!! What kind of martial art are you attempting to learn?


Apparently, same type I am trying to learn.



Power comes from relaxation. It is VITALLY important, and anyone who practices wing chun is aiming to exert maximum power with minimum effort.


Yes. The paradox is that the more we "try" for power, the more elusive dramatic power becomes. You might inquire further with Grendel to see what he means.



Jeez, you really should think about what your doing before trying to do it.


Oops again. You may be assuming too much, or missing something underlying Grendel's comments.



It is not a case of using upper body strength. The forearms should be tensed and the rest of the upperbody should be relaxed when practicing the form. In chi sau the aim is to be soft but not weak. There must be a constant slight pressure exerted in the forarm. This is how wing chun works.


This is the piece that interests me. From many videos I've seen, and prior discussions by some other WT folks, your comment about applying forearm tension doesn't surprise me. Yet from what I've heard about Leung Ting, and from some of long term WT students, it is hard for me to imagine that Leung Ting himself practices or teaches dynamic tension. I am still not sure how to resolve this seeming inconsistency, or what I am missing in order to make sense of it.

If you don't mind my asking, what is the specific purpose of such tension in your practice? Do you also apply this dynamic tension in application? I am curious, as we rather enjoy when the opponent has forearm tension, inasmuch as it provides more to read and work with. On the same account, we try to avoid such tension in ourselves.



No tension in the legs either? Now you seem to have contradicted even yourself LOL.


You might inquire with Grendel further to try and understand what he means and what he's getting at. ;)



Hmmmm, a complete beginner such as yourself should really not be trying to inform anyone of anything.

Oops! :eek:

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yenhoi]

Tension in the arms! Hah.

It MUST be christmas.

Anyways, Im sure there is much benefit to utilize dynamic tension, but: first, its not needed - but people probably like bigger forearms, second, all the disadvantages KJ mention should be enough to phase you from this path, but third - basically if your sifu says so, then do it.

I dunno, maybe in the advanced SLT you dont tense anything?

Its funny, I have a WT video from like 30 years ago or something like that, the first few minutes are on WT history, then it goes into this great section, where they have a guy wearing a shirt that says right, and another that says wrong, then the narrator explains: some branches do their sets with the legs to wide.... some branches use tension in their forearms, some branches lean backwards.......etc and the whole time they show the guy with right on, knocking over the wrong dude. This is the only WT video I have, and it led me to believe that they do not train to have tension in the forearms. Dunno.


For the poster: Id say do what your sifu says, but keep this thread in mind when it comes time to touch hands with other people.

[UltimateFighter]

It seems there is quite a lot of confusion in this area. On the topic of 'tension'- The form can be trained differently than how you do the shape in Chi-sau. You are supposed to tense the forearm in SNT to develop the muscle in this region. Forearm, not the whole arm.

You are confusing 'relaxed' with 'limp'. The forarm is not fully relaxed in chi sau as that is physically impossible. There must be some 'tension to hold up the ams for a start. But the arms must be very soft and relaxed with a 'slight' forward pressure/tension. This is necessary to 'read' the opponents movements and to immediately strike forwards if any gaps are found or if he withdraws. Ask some other WT folks if you need clarification of this.

I fear that Grendel and Yenhoi have misunderstood this idea in training.

To quote Yip man (from Wing Chun Kuen by Yip Chun):


"If in chi-sau practice the man is very tense in the arms he is only a beginner. But if he feels soft and light but when you push him you feel pressure back, then be careful because this one will be very advanced."

I think you will find this is in line with what we train, at least to the best of my understanding, the Leung Ting approach deriving from Yip man.

[JaRmEz]

people saying WT and WC are they the same ? i thought one was wing tsun or somthing and other other was wing chun ? should be taking any notice about WT ? or is it all teh same ?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by JaRmEz
now now i just wanted peoples thoughts and help there is no need to argue abviously its been tought differently who is to say which way is right well maybe some1 but i dunno who there is no need to argue about this even if som1 is wrong they were just rtying to help :D

Hi JaRmEz,

No need to argue. Do what your sifu tells you, but keep an open mind and always look around. Hope my tips were helpful. :D

Apparently WT and Wing Chun are different arts. Let the buyer beware.

Regards,

[JaRmEz]

yeah it was all helpfull thnaks alot :D

[yenhoi]

UF: yes, muscles work by becoming tense, so your right, you cannot hold up your arms, or move them, or even breath or have a heart rate without some degree of functional muscle tension. You win.

There should even be a natural forward pressure and an undeniable forward tension when you have a proper and solid structure. Forward pressure is not tension, forward pressure is not you pressing forward with your arms or legs.

During the first section of the SLT, the different structures will be charged differently. I fail to see how you can tense your forearm muscles and remain soft and pliable, and maintain proper arm structure. During a form I can understand the application of tension in the forearms (not all the time as that would breed bad habits) but against another person, wether in sparring or in chi sau, you cant be serious, thats like handing your opponent two handles to do what he wants with you.

C'mon, you have sparred people, been hit, knocked down, etc - what usually happens when a newbie starts getting hit etc? His arms, along with the rest of him tense up, and thats like chirstmas morning for any WCK player worth his salt. Bamboo in the wind man.

[Clint]

Apparently they vary somewhat, but originated from the same place. I am sure they both have great things to offer.

Hey, all you guys, I think you are simply misunderstanding each other. No need to argue! :D

[S.Teebas]

What would the advantages of having a tensed forearm be if you feel force coming towards you, as opposed to a relaxed one?

[Clint]

Hmmm, I can't see the advantage of that. I was taught to remain relaxed to help sense your opponents intended actions. By this I mean, relaxed, as opposed to being stiff and rigid, which will hender your speed and power. I do not mean relaxed like a limp noodle with no kind of composure.

[Clint]

Just trying to be clear on that last post. It's not directed in a negative way towards anyone.:)

[TjD]

the underpart of tan sau can be tensed, which helps aid in the wedging effect that a good tan sau will generate - this helps propel a strike after that tan sau. much like bouncing off a diving board. just like the tensing on the impact of a strike.

but the forearms definately should not be tense all the time

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by yenhoi
UF: yes, muscles work by becoming tense, so your right, you cannot hold up your arms, or move them, or even breath or have a heart rate without some degree of functional muscle tension. You win.

There should even be a natural forward pressure and an undeniable forward tension when you have a proper and solid structure. Forward pressure is not tension, forward pressure is not you pressing forward with your arms or legs.

During the first section of the SLT, the different structures will be charged differently. I fail to see how you can tense your forearm muscles and remain soft and pliable, and maintain proper arm structure. During a form I can understand the application of tension in the forearms (not all the time as that would breed bad habits) but against another person, wether in sparring or in chi sau, you cant be serious, thats like handing your opponent two handles to do what he wants with you.



The forms can be trained with tension in the forearm to build the muscle there. In Chi -sau you are correct there must be a slight forward pressure. This is what I am referring to when I say slight pressure or tension (perhaps tension is a misleading term. The point is, the arm is not limp, it is flexible and light, but there is some slight resistance and pressure applied there otherwise you are just holding out your arms as they say.

A complete novice can quickly learn to hold pout his arms so they are soft and relaxed feeling, but he will not have learned how to respond to incoming force or launch outward like 'bamboo'. This is what chi-sau is all about and what takes time amd practice to learn.

This article should help clarify what I mean:

http://www.wtdefence.com/wt/articles/force/force.htm

[yenhoi]

I figured as much. Personally I would suggest an entirely seperate full body dynamic tension set as opposed to using the SLT for such needs.

Do you guys stop tensing the muscles in the forearms while doing your form(s?) at some point? Do you tense the muscles in the forearms while doing your other forms?

[[Censored]]

That article says "Don't fight the force...give into it...go with it...use it".

The forms can be trained with tension in the forearm to build the muscle there.

Why do you want that kind and quality of muscle? For what purpose specifically?

A complete novice can quickly learn to hold pout his arms so they are soft and relaxed feeling, but he will not have learned how to respond to incoming force or launch outward like 'bamboo'.

So, with this forearm tension, you hope to develop your arm so that it can't be deflected when it launches forward?

[TjD]

imho training siu lim tau with dynamic tension is only reinforcing bad habits. but mabye its good for karate-wing-chun

[Grendel]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
The forms can be trained with tension in the forearm to build the muscle there. In Chi -sau you are correct there must be a slight forward pressure. This is what I am referring to when I say slight pressure or tension (perhaps tension is a misleading term. The point is, the arm is not limp, it is flexible and light, but there is some slight resistance and pressure applied there otherwise you are just holding out your arms as they say.

A complete novice can quickly learn to hold pout his arms so they are soft and relaxed feeling, but he will not have learned how to respond to incoming force or launch outward like 'bamboo'. This is what chi-sau is all about and what takes time amd practice to learn.

This article should help clarify what I mean:

http://www.wtdefence.com/wt/articles/force/force.htm

Did you even read the article you cited? :confused:

[Grendel]

Originally posted by TjD
imho training siu lim tau with dynamic tension is only reinforcing bad habits. but mabye its good for karate-wing-chun

Yes on both counts---it can be good for karate-wing-chun. If beginners train with dynamic tension in the Sil Nim Tao, they will initially increase their power over the first six months of their training, but unless they unlearn it, they will never progress to correct energy coming from the horse and hand being as one, Sun Sao Hop Yat.

Regards,

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by Grendel


Yes on both counts---it can be good for karate-wing-chun. If beginners train with dynamic tension in the Sil Nim Tao, they will initially increase their power over the first six months of their training, but unless they unlearn it, they will never progress to correct energy coming from the horse and hand being as one, Sun Sao Hop Yat.



Yet again you've missed the point. Training the forearm muscle is different from the fook sau in chi sau practice!!!!! The 'tension' in the forearm is to train the muscle but in chi sau it should be relaxed with only slight forward pressure. Soft and flexible like bamboo.

How many times must I stress this before it sinks in? But anyhow, you train it how you like, the only person whos wing chun is stunted is your own.

[TjD]

do you yell kiai's in your siu lim tau as well?

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by TjD
do you yell kiai's in your siu lim tau as well?

Do you even do wing chun?

Internet warrior, I salute you.

[[Censored]]

UltimateFighter, if you're tired of countertrolling, then you can answer my question.

[TjD]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter


How many times must I stress this before it sinks in? But anyhow, you train it how you like, the only person whos wing chun is stunted is your own.

you took my joke far too seriously, if anyones being an internet warrior it is you. i have made no comments on your wing chun, however you seem to thing everyone elses is stunted :eek: that's a pretty bold statement. many people on here have more years of wing chun that you and i multiplied, i think you could learn a bit from them.

posting on a forum is like wing chun, subtle. you cannot sway people to your point of view by yelling and telling them they suck. you have to be more discreet about it. hell, even the many posters with 10, or 20+ years of wing chun under their belt cant sway many peoples opinions, even with theory and example to back them up, how is saying "your wing chun sucks" going to accomplish anything, if people like that have a hard time?

[UltimateFighter]

In response to censored's question about the forearm muscle development:

According to Leung Ting it is to develop "an additional punching muscle in the arm". Most people mainly use only a single muscle in the arm when they punch which is the tricep. But the forearm can also be developed to add additional power to the punch , or "inch power".

Also, the forearm and wrist regions are the most important areas of the arm for a wing chun fighter. These areas must be developed as they are the areas in contact. Just as it is necessary to strengthen the leg muscles in SNT stance for a stable root it is necessary to strengthen the forearm and wrist.

[yuanfen]

UFC- there are pretty good folks who do not develop muscles with dynamic tension for wing chun punches. What I am gathering is that there are folks who think that they need to do so.
I need my triceps when I am pushing a car but I need them minimally for wing chun punches.
Joy chaudhuri
Joy

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by yuanfen
UFC- there are pretty good folks who do not develop muscles with dynamic tension for wing chun punches. What I am gathering is that there are folks who think that they need to do so.
I need my triceps when I am pushing a car but I need them minimally for wing chun punches.
Joy


That is unfortunately very wrong. How do you figure you don't need triceps when doing chainpunches when this is the main muscle that is used when delivering the punch? This is simple physiology. Maybe you use Ki to power your punches but most people use the triceps as this is the muscle involved in muscle extension.

[UltimateFighter]

It meant to say the muscle involved in arm extension.

[[Censored]]

I need my triceps when I am pushing a car but I need them minimally for wing chun punches.

That is unfortunately very wrong. How do you figure you don't need triceps when doing chainpunches when this is the main muscle that is used when delivering the punch? This is simple physiology.

It's neither unfortunate nor wrong: "Minimally". It's the difference between a hit, and a fist-shaped push. Haven't you ever been punched hard by someone with no discernable tricep muscle?

Also, the forearm and wrist regions are the most important areas of the arm for a wing chun fighter. These areas must be developed as they are the areas in contact.

My question is not about whether strong forearms are useful. My question is why we want to try to develop them during SNT.

When we add dynamic tension to SNT, what do we lose and what do we gain? Why do arm-strengthening exercises during SNT, instead of doing them separately?

Just as it is necessary to strengthen the leg muscles in SNT stance for a stable root it is necessary to strengthen the forearm and wrist.

I assume you don't move your legs in your SNT. Do you try to keep "dynamic tension" in the legs while you are standing still? I doubt it. That would be absurd. And when you step in Chum Kiu, do you intentionally keep tension in your legs? I doubt that too. It would be irrational. Your analogy argues with your point.

[TjD]

the shoulder is used in chain punching (in the SLT stance) way more than the tricep; overuse of the tricep causes hyper extension. i'd say i use the bicep, shoulder and wrist more than the tricep.

turning punches i'd say the waist and the legs are used the most.


when you chain punch, are your punches tense like the dynamic tension in your SLT?

[Clint]

I have to say, I am not positive which exact muscles are being used the most in chain punching, but I do know that after about 400 punches, my shoulders and bicepts are really tired!

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Clint
I have to say, I am not positive which exact muscles are being used the most in chain punching, but I do know that after about 400 punches, my shoulders and bicepts are really tired!

Then, either you're very out of shape or you're doing them wrong.

Regards,

[AndrewS]

Grendel,

nicely put.

As to the rest of this thread, I don't even know where to begin, and will try to leave it be.

Later,

Andrew

[Clint]

I don't think Im doing them wrong, it is the way I learned them. However, I definitely should practice more! Maybe Im tensing too much, as opposed to relaxing, or it could be this 3 year old always hitting my leg while im doing them!:D

[Clint]

Oh, I should clarify one thing. I stated 400 punches earlier, it is not literally 400 single punches, its actually 400 sets of 5. I count each set of 5 as one. This is the way I usually practice chain punches while shifting on every 5th punch, simply because this is the way we practice at my school. However, I still should practice more often than I do. My sifu told me while training punches on the wallbag, I should get up to 3-5000 reps per arm, with time. I am definitely not there yet.:D

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Clint
Oh, I should clarify one thing. I stated 400 punches earlier, it is not literally 400 single punches, its actually 400 sets of 5. I count each set of 5 as one. This is the way I usually practice chain punches while shifting on every 5th punch, simply because this is the way we practice at my school. However, I still should practice more often than I do. My sifu told me while training punches on the wallbag, I should get up to 3-5000 reps per arm, with time. I am definitely not there yet.:D

Probably you are not remaining relaxed enough, especially in your biceps---they probably just need more training. There should be no tension in your arms or shoulders. From Chi Sao practice, your shoulders should easily be able to sustain a few thousand chain punches, but I don't do more than 1000 per day. Time better spent on other Wing Chun practice, such as punching the wall bag and doing the sets, and the other recommendations for home, presumbably solo practice, already discussed.

Good practice to you though! :D

Regards,

[TjD]

the reason the bicep gets tired is because at the end of a punch, you give it some power, the bicep has to work to keep the arm from hyperextending. if you stay relaxed throughout the whole punch, without the little snap at the end you can hurt your arm, IMHO.

after 1000+ punches its not the shoulder that lifts my arm, nor my tricep thats tired, rather the back of my shoulder and the bicep that has to stop my punches - in chi sau they dont get worked as hard im guessing

[Clint]

Thanx, I will try to remain more relaxed when practising.

[zultan]

i do wt and tensing any muscles is a mortal sin.especially where leung ting is concerned.energetic,forward energy.hitting with your whole body.not just hitting with a specific muscle group

[kj]

Originally posted by zultan
i do wt and tensing any muscles is a mortal sin.especially where leung ting is concerned.energetic,forward energy.hitting with your whole body.not just hitting with a specific muscle group

Thanks for the verification. This is how I understood it from some other WT people who seem to follow Leung Ting closely. Your description is also consistent with our approach.

I still have some difficulty resolving much of the WT promotional material I have seen, save the possibility that it reflects Kernspecht's approach more than Leung Ting's as UF suggested.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by TjD
the shoulder is used in chain punching (in the SLT stance) way more than the tricep; overuse of the tricep causes hyper extension. i'd say i use the bicep, shoulder and wrist more than the tricep.

turning punches i'd say the waist and the legs are used the most.


when you chain punch, are your punches tense like the dynamic tension in your SLT?

Nope, the shoulder is used on the final impact of a full ectension but the tricep causes extension. On a short punch the power is all in the wrist and forearm.

Chainpunches are done totally relaxed, as is almost everything in WT. Again, the SNT can be trained with tension in the forearm to develop the muscle, but it is also trained without tension as for application. Understand? Two different ways of training the same thing! (Shock horror).

[AndrewS]

Kathy,

please don't mistake UF's misconstruction of certain statements for what WT actually does. While individual expressions of the art differ, Leung Ting, KK, and Sifu Emin are all doing remarkably similar things. There's no vast separation, just some confused students who see a portion of the art and miss the whole. Or for that matter, totally miss what's supposed to be going on.

Later,

Andrew

[kj]

Thanks, Andrew. I have always valued your insights.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[[Censored]]

Nope, the shoulder is used on the final impact of a full ectension but the tricep causes extension. On a short punch the power is all in the wrist and forearm.

Have you ever been punched hard by someone with scrawny arms? Yes or no? Anyone who has been, knows you aren't telling the whole story. The only thing stopping you from using your FULL BODY in a short punch, is your own lack of coordination.

Chainpunches are done totally relaxed, as is almost everything in WT. Again, the SNT can be trained with tension in the forearm to develop the muscle, but it is also trained without tension as for application. Understand? Two different ways of training the same thing! (Shock horror).

SNT with tension is the same thing as SNT without tension? LOL, shock horror indeed! :) Choose your words carefully if you presume to give advice over the Internet.

[Gandolf269]

Ultimatefighter says:
"Again, the SNT can be trained with tension in the forearm to develop the muscle, but it is also trained without tension as for application."

This is true, I also do WT, and we have been shown 2 ways of doing SNT. One relaxed and one with tension. But the tension is only during the 3 Fook Sau movements, and it is a natural tension that is caused by the position of the hand and the thumb. It is NOT a forced tension. If during Fook Sau, you allow your fingers to point toward the ground (at about 7 o'clock) and place your thumb on the side of your first knuckle you can feel the tension in your forarm. It was shown to my class as a way to develop the muscles inside the forearm. When I use this method I try to relax my forarm, although, because this is a natural tension, it is virtually impossible. I also train the SNT in the normal way, ie. without tension.

My Si-fu does not advocate tensing the muscles in any other part of SNT or in application. And if you do when doing chi sau, he is quick to show you "the errors of your way". 8>)

I hope I have explained this properly.

[cha kuen]

I also see tensing as a kung fu sin. Even though Hung Gar does some tension, their stuff is internal work.

**kung fu books** (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by Gandolf269
Ultimatefighter says:
"Again, the SNT can be trained with tension in the forearm to develop the muscle, but it is also trained without tension as for application."

This is true, I also do WT, and we have been shown 2 ways of doing SNT. One relaxed and one with tension. But the tension is only during the 3 Fook Sau movements, and it is a natural tension that is caused by the position of the hand and the thumb. It is NOT a forced tension. If during Fook Sau, you allow your fingers to point toward the ground (at about 7 o'clock) and place your thumb on the side of your first knuckle you can feel the tension in your forarm. It was shown to my class as a way to develop the muscles inside the forearm. When I use this method I try to relax my forarm, although, because this is a natural tension, it is virtually impossible. I also train the SNT in the normal way, ie. without tension.

My Si-fu does not advocate tensing the muscles in any other part of SNT or in application. And if you do when doing chi sau, he is quick to show you "the errors of your way". 8>)

I hope I have explained this properly.

Yes that was well explained. I should have made clear that the 'tension' is only trained with the 3 fook sau movements and is not 'forced'. The rest of the form is with relaxation in the forearm. Chi sau obviously is done relaxed but with slight forward pressure. This is the hard part to master. If you are tense in chi sau you will be easy to hit and to manouver around. On the other hand, if you are totally relaxed with no forward energy, you will be limp like a wet noodle and will also be easy to hit and control. It is a balance as with everything in Chinese martial arts 'Yin-Yang'.

"Wing Tsun is Taoism in motion."

[hunt1]

Its nice to see Leung Ting has adopted Yip Chings method for enegy development using the thumb as a focus. I wonder has he given credit where credit is due. He wasnt teaching this a few years ago.

[AndrewS]

Hunt,

what has been described for performing fook sao in the third set in WT by Gandalf has been the party line for teaching in WT for the last 8-9 years at least.

'Tension' is a misnomer as you are not maximally contracting the muscles involved, but rather simply activating them. The wrist is flexed such that the line from the first knuckle to the wrist is parallel to the coronal and transverse planes of the body, the line from the crease of the hand to the medial epicondyle is parallel to the line formed by the intersection of the transverse and sagital planes, and the fingers remain relaxed.

This positioning, used in chi sao, seems to improve tactile sense at the wrist, I think, by pulling the muscle involved taut, allowing it to act like a guitar string when plucked by force, if you will.

Later, once elbow orientation is natural, a more relaxed wrist position is used in chi sao, which allows the superior tactile capabilities of the hand to be drawn into play.

My take,

Andrew

[yuanfen]

"Later, once elbow orientation is natural, a more relaxed wrist position is used in chi sao, which allows the superior tactile capabilities of the hand to be drawn into play."
---------------------------------------------------------------
A common goal in wing chun- but there is variance of views on tension apparently- how much, when and how.
joy

[S.Teebas]

The wrist is flexed such that the line from the first knuckle to the wrist is parallel to the coronal and transverse planes of the body, the line from the crease of the hand to the medial epicondyle is parallel to the line formed by the intersection of the transverse and sagital planes, and the fingers remain relaxed.

oh ok...If someone would have just said that at the begining!!! :D ;)

[IronFist]

I don't know who these quotes are from, because there were two quotes and then Censored's replies:

That is unfortunately very wrong. How do you figure you don't need triceps when doing chainpunches when this is the main muscle that is used when delivering the punch? This is simple physiology.

Yes. Arm extension cannot occur without one of the following: 1) tricep flexion 2) gravity. 3) momentum. Unless you are punching straight down, or spinning fast enough for your arms to fly out, your triceps WILL be active. End of story. Go read an anatomy book.

It's neither unfortunate nor wrong: "Minimally". It's the difference between a hit, and a fist-shaped push. Haven't you ever been punched hard by someone with no discernable tricep muscle?

"No discernable tricep muscle?" Um, size does not equal strength, sorry. Even if the triceps muscle was the only muscle involved in a punch, there is no reason to believe that someone without a big triceps couldn't hit hard. Have you ever seen a 120lb person deadlift 5x their bodyweight? (note: this is not a rhetorical example. It is possible) Size and strength are not directly proportional. Many people with huge muscles lift less than relatively skinnier people.

Dude, we need to hook up a proficient WC person to some electrodes to prove that they use their muscles a lot more than the average WC person thinks. But if we did, everyone else would whine "oh, his lineage is wrong. That's why he uses muscular tension."

:rolleyes:

IronFist

[mtod1]

Hi all. Just a couple quick ideas.

My Sifu drills into us during SLT training that the shoulders and arm should be relaxed. But, that when (for eg) your Tan Sau comes forward down your centreline you should maintain a springy tension that extends from the elbow to the tips of the fingers. Also that the elbow drives the Tan Sau forward and chi should try to be directed out to the tips of the fingers.

I think this maybe were some people are getting confused regarding tension (as the tension required is not overly muscular). Hope this helped. ;)

Newbies to WC should ask questions constantly. There's always some morsel of info that'll help you understand and learn concepts or gain a greater understanding etc. Besides your Sifu isn't perfect, they can't always remember to tell you everything you need or want to know.

Best of luck
Seeya ;)