View Full Version : Who Learned Tid Sin Kuen, Wong Kei Ying or Wong Fei Hung?

hung gar guy
08-06-2000, 01:55 AM
I am asking this because i have found conflicting histories on this, but most that i have read primarily say that Wong Fei Hung was the one who learned the iron wire from Tit Kiu Sam.

Another one that i heard was that Wong Fei Hung didn't learn from Tit Kiu Sam directly but by one of his students. It is said that he learned from a Lam Fok Sing (Lin Huosheng) who was a student of Leung Gwan (Liang Gun), better known as Tit Kiu Sam.

But wouldn't it make more sense that WFH learned from Tit Kiu Sam since they were both part of the Ten Tigers of Canton?

Can anybody shed some light on this?

Paul Skrypichayko
08-06-2000, 02:46 AM
You are correct, Wong Fei Hung learned from Lam Fook Sing. Lam Fook Sing was Tit Kiu Sam's most famous student as well. WFH's father was the one to arrange for him to learn from many of the other famous masters in southern China.

One thing I am surprised about is that nobody on here has mentioned that there were two sets of "guangdong sup fu". Wong Kay Ying and Tit Kiu Sam were part of the original 10 tigers. Wong Fei Hung was part of "siu nin guangdong sup fu".

Je Lei Sifu
08-07-2000, 11:04 AM

It is good of you to mention that there were two groups of Gwongdong Sup Fu.

Many people believe that Wong Kay Ying and Wong Fai Hung Belong to the same group of tigers we in fact,as you have stated, they were in seperated generations of tigers.

Je Lei Sifu

The southern fist defeats the fierce mountain tiger.

Paul Skrypichayko
08-07-2000, 11:22 AM
hehehe, Jerry always seems to have my back. Thanks a lot, seems like you have a knowledgeable sifu.

hung gar guy
08-07-2000, 03:06 PM
I am enlightened, thank you my friends.

08-07-2000, 05:48 PM
Could you list the members of the original Guangdong Sup Fu and the Siu Nin Guang Dong Sup Fu?

Siu Nin Sup Fu, that means they're young, probably young adults? Does that include Wong Fei Hong, and I've heard, Fong Sai Yuk?

Thanks for the info.


Paul Skrypichayko
08-08-2000, 02:57 AM
I dont know who was in both sets of the ten tigers right now. The second set is kind of like saying "second generation".

Fong Sai Yuk was definately not in either set because he was dead at least 30 years before the first set came about.

08-10-2000, 04:53 AM
Hey thanks! You just helped me out a great deal. I'm trying to put together a lineage chart for my school. It's quite a project. Our three instructors are all over the place!but all black tiger. Many thanks tigerlilly

Je Lei Sifu
08-10-2000, 08:22 AM
I can try my best to remember the first group of gwongdong sup fu.

1. Wong Yan Lum (Lama Style)
2. Tit Kiu Sam (Leung Gwan) Hung GA
3. Wong Kay Ying (Hung Ga)
4. So Hak Fu (Black Tiger So) Black Tiger Style
5. Chan Tit Ji (Iron Finger Chan)
6. So Hut Yee (Begger So) Begger's Kung Fu
7. Lee Chin Tsun (manderin name)
8. Wong Tin Kia (???????????)
9. Tan Min (????????????)

This is not the order in which each was positioned and if it is, then it is by luck.

Hope This Helps.

And Paul Thanx for the comp about my sifu

Je Lei Sifu.
*********************************************The Southern Fist Beats The Mountain Tiger.

bean curd
08-10-2000, 12:45 PM
je lei,

here are the names i have of the kwandong sup fu.

1. tit kiu sam
2. wong yan lam
3. so hut yee
4. tam chai kwan
5. wong kay ying
6. chan tit ji
7. so hut fu
8. wong ting ho
9. lai yan chiu
10. chow tai.

the names are the same, just different spelling.

tit kiu sam was regarded as the senior of the ten tigers. the honour was due to age and respect to the abilities of each player.

as in all things mo duk is very important.


08-11-2000, 02:24 AM
Can anyone say where these lists are from? What was the criteria? And what is your source?

I had heard that the ten tigers was a list created by a tabloid type publication. It would be equivalent to "People Magazine's 10 sexiest Men" or something.

Not to say that the listed people were not great but that the list is somewhat subjective. Also, I heard there were several lists, not just two.

Anyone hear this type of story or can show the list was from a more objective source?

08-11-2000, 10:00 AM
The ten tigers were the ten most famous, best known martial artists of that time.

The lists appeared in several Chinese martial arts books, e.g. Heroes of South China. In Heroes of South China it is also stated that the name of Wong Feih Hung in the list of the "first group"(ca. 1800 - 1850) was an error.

As for Beggar Su. He learned (old) Hung Gar from Chan Fook, who probably learned from Gee Sim/Hung Hsi Kwan.

08-11-2000, 07:21 PM
Hi all
My answer to the question :
Who Learned Tid Sin Kuen, Wong Kei Ying or Wong Fei Hung?

Tid Sin Kuen was learned by both Wong kei Ying and his son Wong Fei Hung. However they did not learn the famous form from Tid Kiu Sam but rather from his student Lam Fook Sing(as mentioned by Paul).
The story goes that during one of many of their journeys Wong Kei Ying and his young son Wong Fei Hung came accross a street performance where a kung fu master was displaying his skills(this was common at the time). The name of this master was Lam Fook Sing who was a student of the famous Tid Kiu Sam. During his demonstration Lam accidentally injured a bystander. Wong Kei Ying with his son offered to help and eventually treated the injuries of the bystander. Lam Fook sink was very thankfull and in return for their help he tought the iron wire form to both father and son.

As far as the Ten tigers go, i was under the impression that Wong Yan Lam (lama pai-Hop Gar) was on top of the list not Tid Kiu Sam .Tid Kiu Sam was second on the list of the original Kwungtung Sup Fu.

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 08-12-2000).]

08-11-2000, 07:54 PM
Wong Yan Lam was #1 because of his successful lei tai challenge matches in Canton city (150 victories and no losses).

Tit Kiuh SAM (iron bridge THREE) was called this because of his strong forearm and strong bridge work and because he was the THIRD position in the Guang Dong Sahp Fu.

Who was #2? I don't know actually. Sifu Frank Yee has been doing a lot of research and his students are getting good information from him every time he returns to the US. Maybe ask him?

Paul Skrypichayko
08-11-2000, 11:19 PM
I'm not sure who was number one, or number three, but Tit Kiu Sam was only the nickname of Leung Kwan. Leung Kwan was famous for his "iron bridge" technique, and was the third son "sam" in his family. You will notice some Chinese people have names like "yut", "yi", "sam", etc.

hung gar guy
08-12-2000, 01:35 AM
I agree with Paul on this one. Tit Kiu Sam was named this because of his iron bridge work and also because he was the third son of his family.

bean curd
08-12-2000, 07:16 AM
the written transmissions of the time, that i have been able to read, lay claim to tit kiu sam as number one.(but either way, its not really important in that i am not interested in an argument on the subject, the fact that they are mentioned in the ten, states their skill levels)

tit kiu sam was also well known for his fighting skills, the claim laid due to his crossing of hands on many challenges, and like all hero's never lost a fight.

this of coarse was increased when tit kiu sam performed his art, and on many occassions asked the spectators to try and straighten his arms out when in the kiu sau position, many tried, and it is written that none accomplished the act of straightening his arms out.

as for his name, i agree with the above, all the info i have. states that he was known as tit kiu sam, due to his skill in the kiu sau and that he was the third son in his family. this has been well documented through many years.

08-12-2000, 08:46 PM
Awesome thread guys! Great information Thanks again tigerlilly