Question about one of the principles in the mantis system?

[RAYNYSC]

I have a question concerning one of the principles in the twelve key formula. Particularly as translated by the Seven Star branch of Mantis. The word is "gwa", "qua" or "kwa". A lot of articles, books and internet sites I've read translate the character for gwa as "upward block". Yet I've been told that the character for this word does not mean block. It actually means "suspend" or "hang" as into hang in the air.

My question is really for anyone that has a good grasp of the chinese language. What is the literal translation of this character and how is it applied in actual combat. The way I see it if you translate it as an upward block doesn't this limit the principle aspect of the character?

In other words if you tell a student that this is in fact a block then this character is no longer a principle. It becomes one specific move (not a very practical one at that). If the character is in fact to hang something in the air I would think this would allow more freedom in terms of application.

Peace:D

[mantis108]

First off, I am not a 7* exponent but I have been exposed to 7* forms and techniques. So I can only give you my impression on this "word".

Chinese martial arts community in general likes to use words liberally. That means sometimes the meaning in dictionary does not match the martial [re: practical] use of the word. In some cases words are created specifically to express the uniqueness of a move within the context of the style (ie Peng in Taiji).

Chinese martial arts also view things in the light of Ying/Yang. So a hard and/or soft execution(s) of the very same technique is an often phenomenon. The general rule of thumb is depending on the situation. That's where drills come in handy to learn the usages of the move. My friend that's basically is what the secret that people keep talking about. It is upto the Sifu to lead you seeing the different sides of the same coin. Some Sifu never will show the 2 sides, while others will. Due to this "protective mechanism", we continue to see arguements among lineages of the same style and styles among styles within the same system.

One particular drill that is like that is the Wai Gwa Shou (outer hanging punch). The Gwa can be done in both hard (to frame) and soft (to intercept). To understand the intricacy is the esscence of the Kung Fu. Only then we will be ready for follow ups and flow in the totally. Just some thoughts.

Mantis108

[Taz]

RAYNYSC

I am recently studying mantis in Florida with Shrfu John and we do many drills incorporating kwa. It is very useful in opening up the attacker for your attack. In fact, a basic kicking drill has 2 people squaring off and then the attacker punches in and gwa the punch and follow with a toe kick and then it is defended. We use it to start alot of 2 person drills. I can see what the literal translation means- when the person attacks with a punch or your hands make contact then you can kwa and their arm is hanging up momentarily to allow you to attack. The follow(ie. punch or kick) is happening at the same time you kwa. I hope this helps.

[mantis_seeker]

RAYNYSC

I speak cantonese and practice 7*, the character gwa means to hang something. I think the translation of upward block is used to make the concept easy to see when you first start. I don't think any Sifu would teach it as one specfic move but as any upward blocking motion.

You have to remember a direct literal translation of any language changes the intent of the words many times. A language often shapes the way our mind thinks and while something may mean one thing when heard by an eastern mind the same thing means something totally different in a western mind.

A Sifu is doing the best he can teaching english speaking people, chinese words and concepts that are sometimes purposely ambiguous.

mantis_seeker

[Tainan Mantis]

1. A rigid defense.
The first type of hanging hand falls in this group. As if the opponents' hand hangs on my block. Like it has been described in the above posts.

2. A flexible offensive method.
A method for dealing with the opponents hand, eg right hand.
My right back hand and left palm strike out at the opponents hand.
Then my right palm strikes in a downward smash to the opponents face.

Very similar to other 3 hand techniques like go lo tsai etc.

When I do this hanging hand attack the opponent can block with the hanging block(his left high block).
I can then perform hanging hand again.
This way hanging hand becomes zhan nien/ sticking and pasting.
This is flexible overcoming rigid.

Countering hanging hand.
Because the strike of hanging hand is a powerful downward strike so a good method of counter attack is leaking hand.

[Tainan Mantis]

TAZ,
I was at the Pong Lai school about 2 weeks ago, I don't know if you were there that night.
I saw a drill performed there that sounds like what you are describing. That one is called tiao sho tan tuei.
Tiao means to lift and is similar to gua, but often is a less aggressive type block.

[Joe Mantis]

Tainan,

Sorry to have missed you in Tampa. I hope your visit was great.
Maybe next time we'll be able to get together.

[18elders]

Sorry i missed you when you went to the school, i usually get there later because of work.
too bad you couldn't stay for a few days, i found something that may be of interest to you.
Hope you had a nice trip.
I should be in taiwan in may if all goes well.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hey guys,
sorry I missed you.
18 Elders,
send me a PM.

[PaulLin]

What I known form 8 step:

Go and Gua both has rotating forearms, in opposite direction. In Go, you will be hooking and poking, in Gua, you will be pushing(not a regular push, it is like sheding off water) and cutting. GM Wei use a special fist with small finger in knife shape to emphasis on the cutting aspect. I am not sure the "hanging" definition would fit the move, maybe it has a local ShanDoung folks meaning that is different than official Chinese definition. I can ask my father about that. With special forearm training, one can feel kind of opponent's arm is like a cloth being hang by your deflection.

Tsai and Lo is kind of opposite in movement too. They seems to come in opposite pairs.

Tainan Mantis has metioned a application in his 2nd case. In 8 step, it was call Shuai Chuai--tossing/thrown hammer-fist. It was done in fist rather than opened palm, other wise it is similar. That combo. goes like this: Gua, Shuai, then FanBung. The way we train, we are not counting on any one to block our striking down fist, but expecting the oppoenet to back up and avoid the smash. That is why it was followed up with a reversing back fist (FanBung).

That is what I know.

[mantis108]

Hi Tainan Mantis,

I hear you. I also have some more thoughts about it.

<<<Two types of hanging hands in 7* PM
1. A rigid defense.
The first type of hanging hand falls in this group. As if the opponents' hand hangs on my block. Like it has been described in the above posts.>>>

While I think the primary function of Gwa of the rigid use is defense, it is also a prelude to a fast hammer fist to the opponent's collar bone, neck or the head. This move is often found in the form "Mantis steal peach". Hang and then chop down hard

<<<2. A flexible offensive method.
A method for dealing with the opponents hand, eg right hand.
My right back hand and left palm strike out at the opponents hand.
Then my right palm strikes in a downward smash to the opponents face.

Very similar to other 3 hand techniques like go lo tsai etc.>>>

I think you have shown me this before. I would like to add that this seems to be consistant to WHF's description of Outer inner hanging hand. It is kind of interesting that other styles such as Choy Lee Fut (primarily found in the South) uses similar definition of Gwa. I am curious as whether WHF's exposure to the south and and perhaps the southern styles would have anything to do with he view on the Gwa. Having said that I must clarify that I am by no mean questioning his view. In fact, this definition of Gwa goes better with the go lo tsai then the rigid defense definition IMHO. I think they (go-lo-tsai-gwa) could go to gether as a group of initiating contact hands following this defination. BTW, I agreed with you also on the 1-2-3 techs.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[count]

Seems to me that the hanging (gua) is like the gua in Pigua but the gua I know from 7*, and other northern systems, is more of a shaving like Paul Lin described. Curving inward or outward. But than, I leave it up to you Mantis venerables who actually speak Chinese.:D

[Stacey]

offensive, its can be used like a tai chi peng to set up for a grab.

Yeilding gwa is seen on mike patterson's hsing I site.

[loki]

As a defensive action, do you guys feel GWA is practical ? I understand that it depends on the given situation but if you look at this movement it resembles karate's upward block. Let's face it, how many times has anyone actually used an upward block in a fight ? The ideal situation for this movement, if it were to be used as a block would be as a counter to a crashing blow from over the head. Not too many people throw punches from that angle. More than likely punches will be coming in a more linear fashion not withstanding , smaller circular punches such as hooks and uppercuts. Quite frankly, Gwa will be very difficult to use because of the angle. It is not a natural reflexive response ( motion ) and it affords your opponent a wide open target for him to follow up his strikes with.

As an offensive tool Gwa, can be used in a variety of ways. For example, in a close range situation such as a clinch, gwa can be used to create some space between you and the opponent . The object would be to hit the opponent with the forearm in a cutting fashion such as others have mentioned already. The target can be either the throat, pushing the chin and jaw upwards with the cutting action or the nose, preferably catching underneath the nose and pushing upwards . Mantis 108 is correct in stating that gwa is usually used in conjuction with something else ( as are all the principles ) and in this case tong choy which is simply a straight punch can follow up. If you are in close and you gwa the opponent's face ( eyes, nose or throat ) chances are he will have a hard time seeing tong choy coming his way. This is actually a combination that can be found in many of the 7 star mantis forms. Again, like Mantis 108 said, Pek choy will come at the end of this combo which we call gwa, tong , pek. Another, illustration might be in the case of a grab where your opponent tries to grab your lead hand with his lead for either a chin na application or simply to hold you momentarily to follow up with a strike with his rear hand. In this case, gwa can be used as an escape from the grab. The upward motion along with the cutting action will rotate the upponent's wrist such that he has to release the grip. As the arm rises up your opponent's lead side of the body (outer gate ) particularly the ribs is wide open for you to follow up with tong choy. As in the previous illustration the opponent will have a hard time seeing the punch because the gwa motion will have put his grabbing arm almost across his body, obstructing his view. In a mid range situation gwa can be used as a feint. If used correctlly, the opponent will think you are attempting an attack to the high gate. If he goes for the feint you follow with...yep, you guessed it , tong choy to the open gate below. One more scenario it can be used is if you use it with wrapping hand as a setup for it. Wrapping hand is normally utilized as a chin na technique and is prevalent in 7 star mantis mantis forms. It is found in the basic form known as Dar Gung ( Avoiding hardness ). In this instance wrapping hand can be used offensively ( we mantis people just love to attack :D ) to pull your opponent in close to you and throwing him off balance. Needless to say, the opponent's face meets gwa as both come crashing toward each other. Tong Choy to the throat and pek choy to the collar bone can follow.

Hope you guys can get a mental picture of what I am trying to convey. Needless to say, gwa is a principle that really has no limits as long as the practitioner is aware that this movement is a principle and not a particular technique. You can choke with this move, you can hit, you can throw , you can chin na , or you can use it to clean off an opponent's blocking limb. It is up to the individual to have an open mind and be willing to put time into thinking , analyzing and of course train with these concepts in mind . Hope this helps.

[Stacey]

I've used it with a double kick defensively.

we use that with number 6 tan tui

[RAYNYSC]

Thanks for your responses on this guys as it has clarified my understanding of this principle.Loki that brake down was on the money if you ask me. By the way Mantis 108 & Mantis Seeker I have a question: Based on your statement reguarding the way sifu's teach,do you think that they may limit the principles to just one technique & pass it off to their students as such because they were taught that way & they just don't know any better? Or do you think they hold out on this information on purpose.
I mean the way I see it, it just might be a mixture of all the above no one truly knows except the sifu himself. Thats why I feel that the student should seek out as much information as he can in order to get a better or a complete understanding of set principle & or technique that he/she is learning.

Peace:D

[mantis_seeker]

Hi Ray,

I can't make a general statement that all teachers are a certain way. When I first started learning I had a lot of questions. "Can I do this against this, what does this mean ....?" etc.. and my sifu would answer them. Just because I heard what he said didn't mean I understood though.

A good sifu is trying to help you learn and that often means giving you what you can handle and not what you want. I really wanted to learn Tong Long Toe Tau my first year after I had seen my Sibak perform it. But if my sifu taught that to me I wouldn't know how to perform it correctly, I'd just be waving my hands in the air and jumping around. And if he tried to explain everything about the form to me I wouldn't have understood because I didn't have a firm grasp of the basics yet.

On the other hand there are a lot of frauds out there. I think sifu Cottrell said it best that a lot of teachers can show you the textbook example of a technique but thats it.

I think some sifu's are secretive because they got burned from a past student. Others only just barely learned the system and are calling themselves masters. And others are students of fake masters that took them for a ride, and yes, they don't know any better.

So yes, a student needs to do his or hers homework. But if you find you have a good sifu, one who is willing and openly sharing what he knows, who he learned if from, and can apply it, then maybe we should ask ourselves if we are doing more harm than good by trying to get more info before we are ready.

Sorry about that ... I'm not trying to feed the "Sifu knows best" BS just trying to show it from another side.

mantis_seeker

[mantis108]

Hi RAYNYSC,

I agreed with Mantis Seeker.

Also I think that a lot of time, as students, people tend to stick with one defination and/or one use of a technique. In fact, a lot of the older generation Sifus encourage that. When further development happens (from either side), students would think that the Sifu hide secrets from them. Personally, I don't think it is a healthy nor prudent approach to Kung Fu. But then that just me.

Regards

Mantis108

[loki]

Hello Mantis 108,

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that it is okay for a student to just learn one technique per principle ? I doubt that is what you mean but could you elaborate on what it is the Sifu's you mention would encourage?

Thank you.

[mantis108]

Hi Loki,

I am not saying it is okay to learn one technique as the principle. I am mere saying that novice in the begining would have the tendency to try to grasp a meaning of the principle with a technique. It is a way to quickly gain some orientation in an otherwis chaotic learning process. Principle sometimes are abstract and globle while technique is more tangible and local. In the old days, a lot of the Sifus were not articulate. So instead of explan in fine details the subtle differences, they would rather show a technique [ie an upward block] as the principle [ie Gwa]. So the upward block easily stick in the novice mind as gwa in the beginning. After awhile through hard work a better understanding of the principle becomes clear and more "examples" of the same principle are found. This might lead the students to think that the Sifu has been holding out on them. What the Sifus actually encouraged is for the student to stick with what is given to them until further notice. It does 2 things 1.) to exert authority 2.) he has tighter control in transmiting the art. But then that's the old way.

Regards

Mantis108

[PaulLin]

Just for your info that if you wondered about why it was originally called Gua. It is the same way Go was named.

It has to do with old traditional Chinese house structure. There used to has a cloth-drapery in to door way. A person must hook the drapery up and/or hang it in order to go through the door.

Both Go and Gua are deflecting hand techniques, often it will be completed with a Bu-Chuan (filling punch).

Go and Gua has to do with how you hang up the drapery and the Bu-Chuan is the person who walked into the door way form the opened drapery. And the drapery is the deflected strike form your opponent.

Hope that will be helpful for the people who would like to know the orgin.

[PaulLin]

One big missed point is that you will have to hide under what you hook and hang up in order to get inside, so blocking up with your body stood too tall is not a good idea, you will get your head bumped on the top frame of the door. Stay lower with your stance will make it work better. Oh, also don't forget to walk into the door way IN TIME once you opened it, don't stand there and reatch with arm only. You can end up in an arm-wrestling match instead of complete the move correctly.

[mantis108]

Long time no hear. :) Hope you are well. As always, your posts are very helpful and informative. Thanks

Regards

Mantis108

[B.Tunks]

It shouldn't ever resemble an upper block from karate!
B.T

[B.Tunks]

I agree with Paul Lin's origin of gua as 'hang'. Also with mantis 108, in that although one technique can not define the entire principle, it can provide a basic understanding for some.
B.T

[Mr.Binx]

As for using this technique, you have to realize the positions that you will be in during combat when performing the maneuver. Your body is often going to be pushed into situations where the forms you've learned will still be there but on a much more loose/relaxed level (if you practiced enough with the pressure of an opponent at least) that it may not even be apparent until your form goes rigid. I think the main reason that gua is taught at early stages is becaus it is preparing a single hand to use the basic structure and movement of most of the seven star arm techniques that you will be performing. This structure allows you to instinctively use geometry as tool to for combat. When these movements become familiar you will begin noticing it in the more advanced movements from simple blocks, through throws, to strikes, etc. By then gua should be horribly familiar to you and much more natural as you will be using the technique often (only at different angles).

Please, realize that these are only observations from someone who's rather new to the physical practice and application of seven star, so my theories of what I've followed with my eyes may be horribly flawed. I started classes last month under Fort Worth's Sifu Steve Cotrell (http://www.authentickungfu.com/about_sifu.html) (an awesomely nice & humble guy). I have been very impressed with the ideas behind the techniques in this art. The hardest part, I perceive, is going to be learning my body to do these things instinctively. My feet are hating me. :o

[seung ga faat]

In our programs I teach a drilling method call 4 hands/say sao. This excercise has three stages;stationary,shifting,and stepping.
Here are the four hands:
1.pek- cleave
2.kwa- suspend
3.dip- fold
4.gwat- slant
The drill is used to teach connected movement, along with movement possiblities.This drill is done until the student developes lung bihn.
Mantis is based on ideas and principles of movement which seek to mimic the character and of things that are not human. Imagination and daring are key in this exploration,along with belief and loyalty.
________
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Kitchen Measures (http://kitchenmeasures.com/)

[Tainan Mantis]

On a recent thread some questions were posted on the term gua/hang from 12 keywords.

In this old thread on page one I made a poor translation from a WHF book.

His description of gua is a type of mo pan or triple plucking hand.
My shrfu did not use this defintion of gua to mean triple plucking, though we learned the same drill as WHF described.

Also, WHF mentions that this is one of his 1st 5 san shou/ free fighting techniques.

[German Bai Lung]

Okay, I agree with you guys that there is more than one known applikation of one principle! That is sure....
My problem (look at the 12 key thread!) is: do you interprete different moves as gua because of the defensive character?

I think every good style must apply every principle - no: every technique in many different situations: you can´t fight with a technique by training like: ok, please attack now with the right - no not the left!! - hand, good, now I defend and counter and you please kick with the left leg and so on ... you get it? ;)

With other words: gua must work fine on attacking with left or right, against huen choi or tong choi, bang choi or even a high kick! Therefor it will look everytime a slight different! But it will be gua all the time!

But when you apply tsa choi (block horizontal with the arm like in tan tui/tan toi) it will be tsa choi and not another variation of gua....

I hope instantly I understand all the posts right and you guys are not trying to say something total different... :D

[Mr.Binx]

Wow... I remember this post. Been awhile. :eek:

We have been drilling with kwa tong choi (upper block and straight punch) quite extensively since this message was originally posted 6 months ago. I have found that the kwa is alot more than a simple block against attacks coming against your upper-quadrant.

Take for example, what happens when an individual is coming at you with a haymaker or hook punch. The basic synopsis is that kwa keeps the aggressor in an offensive posture, leaving them open for the tong choi, as well as preventing the oncoming blow from connecting. What I find fascinating is that there is so much more going on.

When initial contact is made with the opponent's arm a filing deflection of the blow is made as kwa is coming to bear. The friction caused by the filing of kwa againt the attacking arm has a slight effect of pulling the attacker into your space and enhancing his/her momentum in your direction.

At the same time as the kwa is being performed with one arm, your other arm is performing tong choi. The tong choi uses the movement of your shoulders and clavicle from kwa as a fulcrum, causing your striking fist to gain an immense advantage. Your own spiral torque and momentum of movement joins forces with the attacker's momentum (which kwa is likewise encouraging) to help your attack proceed through their waiting, undefended body. ... Whee!!! How can you not love this stuff!? :D

I will not be surprised if I find alot more to kwa when my training time regarding this technique has doubled. I have an immense respect and thanks for individuals who have put so much thought and hardwork into the dynamics of techniques such as this and allowed them to be passed on to others.

Edit: I felt kind of iffy about using the term 'filing' when referring to the contact made by kwa and the opponent's technique. There's more a feeling of sticking and rolling the attacker into you on lateral attacks like a haymaker. The filing (or light grinding) I mentioned seems more noticeable to me against strikes that come in on a vertical trajectory like a chop or hammerfist.