Be honest now...

[straight blast]

What do you think the "war in Iraq" is about?
Be honest!

[rogue]

All of the above and then some more.

[Laughing Cow]

I think that the war is only partially about Oil.

I think the main reason is to extend the power sphere of the US goverment to further cover the globe.

The Middle East has a lot of significance in the world, not just because of it's Oil reserves (Trade routes, etc)
Naturally the USA would love to control or atleast have a big enough voice to veto or even dictate OPEC what do to and what to charge for it's Oil.

The USA is the primary military weapon exporter in the world and thus would like nothing more than to equip "friendly" nations with extra hardware to defend their countries and thus given them a hold over them, and boosts it's own economy as a pleasant side-effect.

With this the USA would also arrange trade deals and gain extra markets for their goods.

The USA as a political and economic entity loves to control other countries. Europe and Asia have only shown limited success so far, but the middle east is still a large untapped market still to be conquered.

As for nation building or spreading democracy that won't happen.
Democracy is something that has to come/develop from the citizens of the country and thus cannot be given or forced onto anyone.

In the end I think it is all about power and influence, like all the wars in history so far. It always boils down to how much money/goods/power can be gained by fighting a war.

Just my 0.2 cents worth.

[TaoBoy]

It's predominantly about the US government imposing it's will upon the rest of the world.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by TaoBoy
It's predominantly about the US government imposing it's will upon the rest of the world.

Well said!

[yenhoi]

Quote LaughingCow:

I think the main reason is to extend the power sphere of the US goverment to further cover the globe.


Quote Taoboy:

It's predominantly about the US government imposing it's will upon the rest of the world.

--

Well, of course dummys.

But, you guys say it like its a bad thing or something?

[yenhoi]

Democracy is something that has to come/develop from the citizens of the country and thus cannot be given or forced onto anyone.

Perfect examples of this would be: Japan, Germany, Italy (commies), Russia (haha), and South Korea (even more haha).

Its easy, you name some!

It would also be neat if someone could name a country somewhere on earth that is actually governed by Democracy.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Quote LaughingCow:

I think the main reason is to extend the power sphere of the US goverment to further cover the globe.


Quote Taoboy:

It's predominantly about the US government imposing it's will upon the rest of the world.

--

Well, of course dummys.

But, you guys say it like its a bad thing or something?

To everyone beyond the xenophobic shores of the US, it is a bad thing. And it seems that the US still doesn't realise just how much the rest of the world is opposed to its empire building.

[Laughing Cow]

The People outside the US shores have seen Empires come and go.

Some went down fighting others withered away rotting from the inside, either way they never last.

The US Empire will simply join the list of dead Empires once it's time has come.
;) ;)

Just my 0,2 Cents worth.

[dezhen2001]

all of the above and then some
(d@mn i quoted rogue :eek: )

dawood

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
The People outside the US shores have seen Empires come and go.

Some went down fighting others withered away rotting from the inside, either way they never last.

The US Empire will simply join the list of dead Empires once it's time has come.
;) ;)

Just my 0,2 Cents worth.

Of course. It's just a question of how much damage it will do between now and then.

[dezhen2001]

is it just me or has kfo been real 'deep' lately? politics, physics, religion, war... what next? :D

dawood

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Serpent


Of course. It's just a question of how much damage it will do between now and then.

Yep, and the rest of the world still got a pretty good memory of how muchdamage and what kind of damage can be done.

Thus we are opposing the USA.

Just my 0.2 cents worth.

[Braden]

How come "Because it's what the UN has supported unequivacobly for years" isn't on the list? You'd think that's a pretty major element.

[MonkeySlap Too]

What's next?

KFO survivor! Vote the people who disagree with you off the forum!

Did you know: Government is the number 1 cause of human death? Followed closely (because they are often intertwined) religion?

Ah, if only the Whiskey Rebels stood up to Washington better, maybe instead of democracy versus (fill in terrorany of your choice) we'd be asking about those crazy nuts that think they need a government.

Dang I'm impresionable. Just got done reading a L. Neil Smith novel. Sorry. Back to our regularly scheduled stupidity...

[Serpent]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
What's next?

KFO survivor! Vote the people who disagree with you off the forum!

Did you know: Government is the number 1 cause of human death? Followed closely (because they are often intertwined) religion?

Ah, if only the Whiskey Rebels stood up to Washington better, maybe instead of democracy versus (fill in terrorany of your choice) we'd be asking about those crazy nuts that think they need a government.

Dang I'm impresionable. Just got done reading a L. Neil Smith novel. Sorry. Back to our regularly scheduled stupidity...

Did any of that have an actual point?

[Cody]

Power.
including erosion of liberty in USA, ostensibly for security reasons.
The if you gas us, we'll nuke you headlines pretty much bottom lines it. I wonder how many of our citizens are expendable in the eyes of our own leaders who favor these attitudes.
American politics meddled abroad over many years and got shafted.

Cody

[Merryprankster]

Oh goody! Another hate the U.S. thread.

Starving? Tired? Keep getting locked up or worse in your own country for political dissent or worshipping a religion of your choice?

Blame the U.S.! It's easy, convenient, and fun!

Coming soon to a bumpersticker near you.

[Laughing Cow]

MP.

What the F`ck are you talking about. Most of the Countries on this Ball of dirt GUARANTEE:
1.) Freedom of Speech
2.) Freedom of Religion
3.) Have social services.
It is written in their constitution, and some of those are older than your bloody Country.

BTW, Britain your great ally, NEVER had a consitution.
FYI, the Japanese constitution is modeled on the german one, and not the USA one.

Honestly methinks you need to take your "USA is the greatest" glasses off and see the world for what it really is.

USA multi-cultured my Arse, newcomers have to be assimilated to the US way very soon. Of all the countries I visited the USA was the least multi-cultured.

F'ck, the US even practice "APARTHEID" and segregation thus we got Harlem, Chinatowns, etc.

We the great USA accept asylum seekers like Cubans and haitians. Baah hahahah.

Very BORG-like, and the US won't be happy till the rest of the world is like them.
;P ;P

You know "shared misery ..."
:D

Yeah, USA the great Liar and self-deceiver.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[Merryprankster]

You need to take off your U.S. bashing glasses. See? Two can play at that game.

Fruitful wasn't it?

And no, I'm not "high on the U.S." I don't think everything we do is selfless, grand or even justifiable.

I'm just tired of people running around whimpering that it's all our fault, when it ain't.

There's good and bad to be had, but people would rather blame the U.S. for every freakin thing that happens, and it's absurd.

How about this: The real problems in these areas of the world are caused by the effects of arbitrary boundaries drawn up after the dissolution of European empires, with little to no regard for ethnic, linguistic, or religious/regional differences.

Of course, nobody ever seems to remember that. Folks like you prefer to think that we're insidiously working towards world domination.

I do think your patronizing is cute though. Keep it up!

[rogue]

The thing that scares the US bashers the most is that we'll be proved right.

Funny how the Europeans have given the workd all of the great facsists. Must be something in the cheese.:D

[Chang Style Novice]

Rogue -

Don't dis Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, and Gen. Pinochet like that!

And don't forget who said "There ought to be limits to freedom."

[rogue]

They weren't great or facists. Just look at their fashion sense.

[Chang Style Novice]

???

I understand the fashion sense thing was a joke, but how were they not fascists? Or was that part of the joke?

[yenhoi]

What the F`ck are you talking about. Most of the Countries on this Ball of dirt GUARANTEE:
1.) Freedom of Speech
2.) Freedom of Religion
3.) Have social services.
It is written in their constitution, and some of those are older than your bloody Country.


:confused:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Omg, Lol.

The best one is "have social services."

[Cody]

not a US basher, or a basher of anyone. That doesn't mean I have to like everyone or be in agreement. Nor is complete blame due to one person or country or regime.
If some are in favor of the gas and nuke scenario, or statement, enjoy the fallout with the rest of the world. My first impulse on 9/11 was along the lines of serious bombing, flattening. I lived in NY for most of my life. it was my home. But, I reconsidered.
I don't like aspects of US policy of interference, and I don't like the comic book dialogue of hit lists and gas and nuke. "Home Security?" that raises a flag for me. While my studies of history and politics ended years ago, I have a right to my opinion in terms of how I see things now, and you have a right to disagree.

those are my views. am entitled to them, as you are to yours. I would rather keep them in context. disagreement is not bashing. refusal to be an unconditional patriot is not bashing, though it appears to sometimes be filed in the same bin.

In fact, I don't much care for the phrase of US bashing, or anything along those lines. Bashing, at its core, implies violence or abuse. The word has stretched to include simple disagreement without violent intent. Yet, those who seek a power base need as much agreement as possible, so, in a sense, disagreement might weaken a cause or opinion, leading to a fall out of favor.

So much for this.
Cody

[red5angel]

Laughing Cow, please don't accuse anyone of anything while making assumptions.

Assumption 1-

"USA multi-cultured my Arse, newcomers have to be assimilated to the US way very soon. Of all the countries I visited the USA was the least multi-cultured."

Oh? How so? You're probably right though, I mean geeze, here in minneapolis while building the light rail system we are only going to be putting three languages on all the signs, instead of one for every nation who has representatives in our area...
:rolleyes:

assumption 2-

"F'ck, the US even practice "APARTHEID" and segregation thus we got Harlem, Chinatowns, etc."

Not sure your an american or not, if you are, you must have slept through american history or something, you need to go back and do a little research into this, it's just plain stupid.

assumption 3 -

"We the great USA accept asylum seekers like Cubans and haitians. Baah hahahah."

While we have in the past had some pretty liberal immigration laws, we do not accept illegal immigrants, cubans, haitians, mexicans, europeans, or otherwise. While in the country you must obey the countries laws.....

"Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought."


Actually I think you owe me more then 2 cents for having to listen to that garbage.....send me address to that tree you have your arms wrapped tightly around and I will send you a bill on recycled paper made of environmentally friendly plastics and will use blood or some other body fluid that won't do any damage to the environment. ;)

[Merryprankster]

Cody,

Everytime I hear "Homeland," I shudder.

[yenhoi]

Ich bin ein homlander.


Anyways, the US didnt have "APARTHEID." For a long time we just called it slavery, then segregation, and then civil rights. Now we just call it affirmative action.:rolleyes:

[red5angel]

While we are at it, ahy don't one of you bleeding heart *******s go ahead and point out to me one country that doesn't have some form of racism, elitism, or classist tendancies somewhere in it's history?
That's a piece of HUMAN nature, not national behaviour, although it can be transferred form one to the other.

When you're done with that, let's see a list of countries that hasn't at some point tried to establish dominance in it's region or over it's neighbors......

[Stacey]

www.bbcnews.com

go to voices from Iraq. Different views, most of them think its about oil, are poor anyways and don't want their infrastructure and civilians to get demolished....again.

The only guy that was in favor was a kurdish guy and a widow. The Kurdish guy already got fist fuct by Bush Sr when he betrayed them and he is crossing his fingers that Bush II won't do the same.

they also see the inspections as a ploy to declare war.


Our news is owned by 5 corporations. Its good to get outside news sources.

[yenhoi]

Interesping point Stacey. The 5 media corporations should be pointed out more often.

What those people THINK is significant, but has little or no effect on who really makes the decisions on earth.

Great quote from Red5:

That's a piece of HUMAN nature, not national behaviour, although it can be transferred form one to the other.

-=-

Red5:

To your last point - some people seem to think that is un-natural thing for Nations to do, when its actually a good thing (depending on which side you are on), a normal thing, and is definitly one of the things nations are suppose to do.

[red5angel]

Yenhoi, yep, it would be nice if we didn't have borders and could all get along, but it isn't in human nature no matter how much you want it to be.
To me war is one of those things that you could argue is never really necessary :rolleyes: but that is not true.
Take this whole Iraq thing for instance, it's been mudied by the politicing going on behind it and some of the motives, or percieved motives is wrong but they do supply terrorist with monetary support and supplies, including weapons, some apparently now of mass destruction. Who cares why the terrorist exist at this point, or who was wrong in the past, the point is they are there now and they will be killing innocent civilians as long as they are supported.
Is Iraq the only country to give support? Of course not, but make an example and maybe others will think twice. If that doesn't work then you go after those who conitnue to support terrorism, I don't care who they are.
So in my opinion we should go to war with Iraq, and I don't think it's all about oil, or power.....

[WinterPalm]

The only thing this whole scenario can be summed up to is: Nazi Germany = America. Think about Poland, France; the soliders marching in, killing those weaker, making leaders bend over and disgracing the country and the people. That is what america is involved in now. They are too big and therefore must expand and conquer new areas. Like the Romans, the Britains and other empires, they will collapse from internal dissent.
The American people deserve better than what their government is doing to them and the rest of the world.

[red5angel]

"The only thing this whole scenario can be summed up to is: Nazi Germany = America."

I see your from Canada....:rolleyes:

[Merryprankster]

FYI, here is a list of some countries that have pledged, in their constitution, to preserve freedom of religion and speech:

Iraq, Syria, Communist China, North Korea and Libya.

I see that ink and paper matter. Soooooooooo.


I personally think it's a real shame the way the Canadians treat their Aboriginal populations, myself. Plowing over sacred Mohawk ground for a golf course. Uprooting entire towns and moving them to small islands with no running water or electricity in the arctic circle when their original way of life was nomadic....just a **** shame.

It's clearly a policy of Cultural Genocide, and a thinly veiled attempt to kill them all, or shove them aside. I feel for those of the First Nations, who are clearly kept downtrodden by Ottowa's spiteful and cruel policies.

[Braden]

Winterpalm's baseless slander isn't representative of Canadian opinion.

I notice how all you Bush and US-bashers are ignoring my comment about the UN. That's ok, I'd hate for reality to get in the way of your beliefs.

I also noticed that none of you, nor any of the liberal propaganda pages you get your opinions from, said a **** thing when Clinton bombed Afghanistan and Sudan against UN law.

[firepalm]

War is Good Business & America has been Bushwhacked by good ole Dubya Dubya (WW as in World War). All that’s gone on in the US might well just be an elaborate "smoke screen". Problem-reaction-solution scenario, who has benefited from the tragic happenings of the past two years; “The industrial-military complex benefits by increased spending. A few days after 911, Bush announced the go-ahead for the Star Wars program, and a new defense budget was later proposed at forty-eight billion dollars for 2003.”

In the war against Afghanistan (pulled from various web reports); “There is more oil and gas in the Caspian Sea area than in Saudi Arabia, but you need a pipeline through Afghanistan to get the oil out. UNOCAL, a giant American Oil conglomerate, wanted to build a 1-000-mile long pipeline from the Caspian Sea through Afghanistan to the Arabian Sea. UNOCAL spent $10 billion on geological surveys for pipeline construction, and very nicely courted the Taliban for their support in allowing the construction to begin.”

George Bush wants you to think of him as the White Knight but he very well just might be the very orchestrator (Problem-reaction-solution scenario). Benefit in a war on Iraq furthering the cause of the New World Order.

:cool:

[Braden]

So you don't think that the fact this was all UN policy before Bush was even elected is too pertinent, huh?

Maybe he went back in time.

[red5angel]

Firepalm, what your saying isn't exaclty clear, care to elaborate....

MP - LOL! you beat me to the Mohawk thing, Winterpalm must not be mohawk......

[Braden]

Yer using the mohawk thing to make a sarcastic point to WinterPalm, right?

[firepalm]

Problem, reaction, solution. I want something but it's not something I can just go out & take (ie; increasing military spending, stripping citizens of their civil rights, getting other countries to fall into line with my way of thinking, etc...) so knowing something of human nature I create a 'problem' knowing what the 'reaction' will be and offer up a 'solution' (that will ultimately serve my desired purpose ie; oil, control, etc...).

Braden not sure if your UN comment was directed at me (just glazed over this thread & didn't notice your UN point), however the Bush family has been screwing with America since the early 1900s starting with Prescott Bush.
;)

[yenhoi]

I see where your going Braden, but since we are drawing up sides, Ill let 'them' deal with you! :D

Red5: the real problem with these 'bleeding hearts' has to do with 'them' not paying attention to the world until Sept 11. Same thing with most Americans, just these ones are making noise on internet forums.

[red5angel]

Braden, yes, winterpalm mentions the injustices of America, particular in the case of race, and not so long ago, the mohawk were still in physical conflict with the canadian government.

Firepalm, are you saying 9/11 is the fault of Bush?

[firepalm]

R5A - Can I say conclusively that Bush is, no but I believe it to be a strong possibility!

Odd how with all the US intelligence & military might, how that slippery ****ens Osama just continues to evade detection & capture but manages to send vague videos out often enough just so America doesn't forget.

[Braden]

So the Bush family controls Clinton too?

[red5angel]

yenhoi, they were there before, but now they have something controversial to rail about....

Firepalm, well atleast you through in not exclusively!!! Let me say this, I can agree that america is in part responsible for these maniacs believeing that we are their enemy and that they need to kill civilians. In the past we made some choices we felt we needed to make and these guys feel that we didn't make the right choices and the best way to do that is to kill 3000 civillians in the worst terrorist attack in history.
But let's not blame Bin Laden, or the fact that most middleeast countries are near third world becaus ethey are too busy fighting with whom ever they can find will fight back and these poor *******s have been led to believe that that must be the fault of everyone who doesnt show the same religious affiliations....

plus I would also like to say that anyone who believes that going after Iraq is about oil, or mostly about oil, is a moron and you need to go back to history class.....;)

[firepalm]

Skull & Bones, three generations of the Bush family all members. Clinton principle financial backer, Pamela Harriman (several generations of family in S&K), a Skull & Bones member. Pulled from an article on the net.

BROWN BROTHERS HARRIMAN, the largest private investment bank in AMERICA. The CEO of this power group, Averell Harriman, was the mentor of George Bush's father, Prescott Bush. George Bush's grandfather George Herbert Walker, served as president of BROWN BROTHERS HARRIMAN. The Bush family has SPENT three generations in service to the Harriman interests. That is why it is downright nefarious that it was the widow of Averell Harriman, Pamela Harriman, who was the principle backer of Bill Clinton for President.

Just food for thought!

[ZIM]

plus I would also like to say that anyone who believes that going after Iraq is about oil, or mostly about oil, is a moron and you need to go back to history class.....

Well, I guess you could call this guy a moron. (http://9-11congress.netfirms.com/Vidal.html) I wouldn't. This is one of the best background pieces on the current terrorism I've yet seen. Also, many of his essays were simply not printed in the US. (http://www.indexonline.org/news/202_20020426_vidal.shtml) This kind of market-based censorship partially accounts for differences of opinion in (& of) the US versus the rest of the world.

Vidal does not, BTW, say that the Iraq thing is about oil. Maybe something else ;)

A point not addressed: What of recent extremist muslim expansion and empire-building? There are 3 main strands of islamic extremism: the afgan arabs, the Iran-backed Hezbollah & associated groups, and the "independents" (like the philipinos).

The Hezbollah are due to have their big networking to-do early next year. I expect that they'll reach for more coordination with the other strands, working on communications, infrastructure, finances, etc.

More than one conspiracy out there :rolleyes:

[yenhoi]

ZIM: :cool: :eek: :confused: :cool:

Good point. I actually wrote a term paper about a year ago concerning your post.

Red5: Its doesnt matter. An enemy is an enemy, no matter why he is trying to kill you.

Its only very recently become unacceptable to kill 'civilians' - with bombs, guns, or anything. People are as much a resource to a nation or state as anything else, like bridges and electricity.

"International law" happens to be just like all other laws, subject to who holds the power. "International law" is also a fairly recent thing - this type of formal institutional "International law" anyways.

Trivia: does anyone know the year the United States first paid its UN dues? Hows about the second time? Where was the United Nations chartered? Where IS the United Nations (hosted)?

Most conspiricy BS forgets that the world is more then 50 years old. So are its problems. They also seem to forget that politics are all about good ole boy networks. Always have been, always will be. Not just the American National level, all levels, everywhere, work on person - to - person relationships, likes, dislikes, common intrests, goals, family ties etc.

[red5angel]

Yenhoi I absolutely agree, that's what I was aying in general, at some point it doesn't matter why but just because it has to be. However it wasn't until recently atht it was generally acceptable to attack civilians. It's happened all through history but in general, it only came into it's prime once weapons of mass destruction were created.

[African Tiger]

So let me pose a question to the forum:

Given what we know of Sadaam Hussein's history - gassing Kurdish rebels, failure to provide food and medicine for his people (no! It's the fault of UN sanctions! UN sanctions kill babies! :rolleyes: ) while building multi-million dollar palaces across Iraq - is there anyone who honestly feels sorry for him?

And honestly, wouldn't the world be a nicer place, knowing that his corpse is rotting away in some desert grave?

THIS is what the POTENTIAL war means to me. Taking out the trash, if he can't comply with UN sanctions...

And gosh, golly gee - the much maligned Dubya was right about North Korea. Whodathunk it? I can hear liberal lips tightened all across America...

[Martial Joe]

It seems like it's about being the "best".

[rogue]

Gore Vidal is a moron and even more out of the loop than me.


'No one has apparently scrambled [sent aloft] Air Force interceptors either. At 9:03, Flight 175 crashes into the South Tower. At 9:05 Andrew Card, the Chief of Staff whispers to Bush [who] "briefly turns somber" according to reporters. Does he cancel the school visit and convene an emergency meeting? No. He resumes listening to second-graders ... and continues the banality even as American Airlines Flight 77 conducts an unscheduled point turn over Ohio and heads in the direction of Washington DC.

'Has he instructed Card to scramble the Air Force? No. An excruciating 25 minutes later, he finally deigns to give a public statement telling the United States what they have already figured out - that there's been an attack on the World Trade Centre. There's a hijacked plane bee-lining to Washington, but has the Air Force been scrambled to defend anything yet? No. Should Bush have sanctioned shooting down every plane in the air?



Obviously, somebody had ordered the Air Force to make no move to intercept those hijackings until ... what? He's also nuts.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by African Tiger

THIS is what the POTENTIAL war means to me. Taking out the trash, if he can't comply with UN sanctions...

Have to disagree.
If you want to take out the Trash than you target ONLY the Trash and not a whole country.
The USA is not really interested in taking out the Trash like Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and so on, those are simply excuses for them to pursue their own goal.

Or do you wanna tell me that your ICBM's are so inaccurate that the can't hit one of his palaces spot on.

It has been that way for ages and ever since People fought war.

Wars are about money, power and control not about dislikes or likes or taking out the trash.

Assasination is about taking out the Trash.

They way I see it Saddam is NO threat to the USA as a nation, the same way North Korea is not.

Just my 0,2 cents worth.

[rogue]

Next! (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200211/05/eng20021105_106289.shtml)

Uhhh Sadaam, you order a giant flying vibr@tor? No Terik, why do you ask? (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-1213drone.jpg,0,1775502.photo?coll=sfla-home-headlines) :eek:

[Braden]

Laughing Cow - Assassination is illegal.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Braden
Laughing Cow - Assassination is illegal.

WRONG.

It might be immoral, but not illegal.

THe USA has only a presidental directive forbidding assasination, it is not a law and therefor not illegal.

Any President can invalidate this directive at 5 minutes notice.

And who said you had to do it yourself??

Just my 0.2 cents worth

[Braden]

Sorry, there's an executive mandate that states it's beyond the scope of american activity. Splitting hairs over colloquial versus official semantics is only useful if it's meaningfull. Your pronouncement of WRONG doesn't change the meaning of my statement. The mandate still holds if they get someone else to do it.

Your two cents isn't worth a penny.

The war IS about taking out the trash - taking it out according to the guidelines set by both national and international polital and legal standards. It is utterly absurd that you suggest they disregard this, and interpret their following of accepted standards to be proof of conspiracy.

Moreover, what your suggesting, if it actually was the case, is exactly the sort of thing all these anti-US and anti-Bush people are arguing against. You can't have it both ways.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Braden
The mandate still holds if they get someone else to do it.


Only if found out, and have your leaders become such worry-babies that they worry about a bit of repercussion and bad press from people they anyway consider inferior anyway.



Your two cents isn't worth a penny.

I hardly see any real value in your posts besides putting people down and causing long thread of useless arguing over the same semantics you just complained.

Just my 0.2 cents worth. Take it or leave it.

[Braden]

So you're suggesting the solution is to commit war crimes and hope no one finds out?

"I hardly see any real value in your posts besides putting people down..."

I challenge you to find a single statement in any post I have ever made that makes a personal attack against someone. You can search them all via my profile.

[yenhoi]

More LOL at Laughing Cow.

Do you have some cute little book you pull these things out of?

Do you seriously think Saddam Hussien rules his country because of his good looks? Do you have any idea how many people not only work in side of a palace, but LIVE there, with their familys? Do you even have any idea how big a palace is?

I hardly see any real value in your posts besides putting people down and causing long thread of useless arguing over the same semantics you just complained

Are you even reading this thread? Do you know that you have posted on this thread before? Your not just coming from left field, you fell out of the sky.

[yenhoi]

I really wish I had something better to do right now.

:(

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Braden
The war IS about taking out the trash - taking it out according to the guidelines set by both national and international polital and legal standards. It is utterly absurd that you suggest they disregard this, and interpret their following of accepted standards to be proof of conspiracy.

Keep dreaming.
Your national standards mean zilch outside your nation.

The International standard is a joke as you guys seem to disregard is often as you can anyway.

So killing many people destroying a country is called "taking out the Trash" in your pc world now.

Great I guess Israel is taking out the palestinian trash at the moment and china the Tibetan trash.

The US took the trash out of afghanistan and left it in a free and destroyed state with NO promised monetary aid forthcoming to rebuild it.
Give it another 2~3 yrs at the most and it will be back to pre-Taliban state where only local Warlords rule and fight for power.

Democratic goverments are only good and usefull if supported by the population, otherwise they are a jsut a shell with no power.

Yeah, great improvement, I guess the guys are really happy for "taking out the Trash".

Keep sitting on your high and mighty chair and keep thinking you are doing the right thing.

Just my 0.2 Cents worth.

[Braden]

I'm not American.

BTW, if national standards mean nothing, and international standards mean nothing, what guidelines do you suggest they follow?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Do you seriously think Saddam Hussien rules his country because of his good looks?


He rules because the Iraqi's don't care enough to get rid of him.


[B}
Do you have any idea how many people not only work in side of a palace, but LIVE there, with their familys? Do you even have any idea how big a palace is?
[/B]

Ever heard of "collateral damage".

So killing a few servants is a no-no, but waging war on a whole country is ok.
You guys got some serious weird standards.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Braden
I'm not American.

BTW, if national standards mean nothing, and international standards mean nothing, what guidelines do you suggest they follow?

The standard of what is best for the WHOLE world and not just for their interest.

Personally, I think that the whole WTO, globalization and U.N. should be gotten rid of as it is not a true representation of the whole world, but of only a few powerful states(mostly western and US influenced) with the rest tucked in for tokens sake.

The same way NATO should have been goten rid of when the Cold war was over.

Just my 0.2 Cents worth.

[Braden]

They're doing what they think is best for the whole world.

Unfortunately, there's no handy reference that tells you exactly the best thing to do for the whole world in every situation. At some point, people have to decide what that is. That's the purpose of the UN.

I don't happen to agree with them, despite your presumptions. But that doesn't mean your criticisms are accurate. Very few people ever do what they actually think is evil.

Are China and Russia "western and US influenced" or "tucked in for tokens sake"?

[yenhoi]

Democratic goverments are only good and usefull if supported by the population, otherwise they are a jsut a shell with no power.

Name a Democratic government. If you say THE PR of China, you have failed.

So killing many people destroying a country is called "taking out the Trash" in your pc world now.

Actually he said something like, "war is taking out the trash" and war definitly meets this description : killing many people destroying a country

Your national standards mean zilch outside your nation.

national standards are supposeto apply....... NATIONALLY. Not, internationally.Foreign policy is how Nations address one another. War is one of many time honored tools of state.


The US took the trash out of afghanistan and left it in a free and destroyed state with NO promised monetary aid forthcoming to rebuild it.
Give it another 2~3 yrs at the most and it will be back to pre-Taliban state where only local Warlords rule and fight for power.


When did America bombing afghanistan start being about making afghanistan better? America doesnt care if your country or any other country is ruled by warlords or any of that huggy huggy stuff, as long as you stay out of our buisness, we wont kill you while we meddle in yours. Its a part of being more powerful. Another thing you can do when your more powerful - make sure others dont become more powerful and then meddle in your buisness. Tuff pill to swallow, reality is, unfortunatly, reality has much to do with power, whcih I think was one of your points before you got all mixed up with bashing America for doing what all Nations do - compete with all the other Nations.

Keep sitting on your high and mighty chair and keep thinking you are doing the right thing.

I dout anyone on this thread (;)) has anything to do with the political decisions any of our governments make.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Braden
Are China and Russia "western and US influenced" or "tucked in for tokens sake"?

Yes, to a large degree.

Russia and China won't jump without looking to the USA for approval before hand.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[straight blast]

Did I just open up a can of worms or what???


So killing a few servants is a no-no, but waging war on a whole country is ok.

Bingo! ;)

[yenhoi]

Russia and China won't jump without looking to the USA for approval before hand.

Provide an example. Also, maybe you can suggest a government on earth that makes decisions without regard to how America's government might react.

This is an interesting quote:

Ever heard of "collateral damage".

So killing a few servants is a no-no, but waging war on a whole country is ok.

You guys got some serious weird standards.

It appears you say its ok to kill 'non-combatants' and then in the next sentance condemn the very same. Which is it?

You have answered 0 of my questions (and thats ok, I didnt really mean for you to answer them.)

[Braden]

France, Russia, and China make up the most historically significant socialist and communist nations. I'd like to hear a convincing argument that they're only US pawns.

I'd also like you to clarify who exactly you mean when you say 'the rest of the world' opposes the US. If you don't mean any UN countries, that doesn't leave a whole lot of the world.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by yenhoi

Name a Democratic government. If you say THE PR of China, you have failed.


Switzerland, the only country I truly consider to be democratic.



America doesnt care if your country or any other country is ruled by warlords or any of that huggy huggy stuff, as long as you stay out of our buisness, ...

BINGO.
How have North Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Kosovo and many other countries interfered with the USA.

You guys were also very quick to jump on Austria when they elected a right-wing Goverment, which is their right as a nation.
The Austrians decided by who the wanted to be governed.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[Laughing Cow]

I'd also like you to clarify who exactly you mean when you say 'the rest of the world' opposes the US. If you don't mean any UN countries, that doesn't leave a whole lot of the world.

Within the UN, the US gets a lot of opposition from asian and european countries who are opposed to the US foreign and economic policies.

I mean the People and not the Goverments that make up the World.

Ask your US-Troops in South Korea at the moment if the Koreans oppose them or not.
The Korean Goverment doesn't oppose the US Goverment, but the People in the street are different and those are the ones attacking and trying to kill US-Citizens.

In the end it is the sentiment of the people that matters, not waht some paid lackeys (Goverment officials) talk about.

Just my 0.2 Cents worth.

[yenhoi]

Actually you have attempted to answer 2 of my questions, and I quote you: "WRONG."

Switzerland is not a Democracy. Good try, very good actually. Actually, probably the closest thing on earth to a Democracy, so, lets give you that one.

He rules because the Iraqi's don't care enough to get rid of him.


The only real resonse to this is again, LOL. DO you have any idea how Saddam came to power? Was he the only Iraqi who could read or something?

Ok, now the juice:

How have North Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Kosovo and many other countries interfered with the USA.


Firstly, Kosovo is not yet a soverign nation, I dont think it ever has been, in any modern sense, anyways.

What have we done that is so evil to Iran lately? (Call them some names?)

Afghanistan? last I heard a coalition of warlike tribes (aided and assisted by the West) threw off an Illegal repressive Islamic fundamentalist regime. Look at the news reports on September 10th, 2001 - there was War in Afghanistan before the west got there.

Vietnam had to do with Communism, and Civil war, and drugs, and spheres of influence. There was once 2 vietnams, kind of like North and Sout Carolina. You mentioned the Cold War first, not me.

Korea is much the same case, but with less fuzz. Notice there still is 2 Koreas, much like North and South Carolina.

[yenhoi]

LC: I like your last post about the sentiment of the people. You seem to have a good grasp on how 'the people' (your words) of the world feel. Pray tell, how do you exactly gauge this? Right now Im assuming CNN and MSNBC play a large role.

[Laughing Cow]

Yenhoi.



How have North Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Sierra Leone and many other countries interfered with the USA.

Answer the question and skip the History lessons and stats.


Pray tell, how do you exactly gauge this? Right now Im assuming CNN and MSNBC play a large role.

I don't touch both of those with a 10-foot pole.

Let's see, international & national news (satellite and net are great things), local newspapers on the Net, talking to people from different countries via the Net and so on.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[David Jamieson]

It's more like - situation - reaction - resolution - vs the ramifications of taking no action at all.

Any country is lead both in the media and by it's military and political will. This lead is fueled by the geopolitical agendas of a very small group, who in many countries, including the United States are duly elected by the citizenry to represent that citizenry.

The western systems of government do not bestow any less power to a single man/woman and his/her administration than a dictatorship does. It's semantics and obfuscation at it's very best.

One can criticize all one wants, but the tenets under which the U.S operates are fairly sound compared to a great deal of Nations on this "ball of dirt" (i liked that one :D ). In particular, those nations that the US has the most contention with at this juncture in time.

Granted, Oil is in play, as is money, as is half forgotten idealism left over from world war 2 which translates as the power base of the west.

WWII is the prevaling paradigm in the Halls of power all throughout Europe and particularly in the US and Canada.

The Islamic nations own a great deal of the worlds "ready to go" Oil pipelines and therefore have a stranglehold on distribution of readily usable materials to fuel the world which you and I and all around us demands and lives in. Trouble is, there are a lot of business men who pull the strings on what goes on with the distribution of oil in the world.

Everything in the west points to a heavy dependency on fossil fuels. To have all of it taken away would utterly shatter the western way of life. The Bush family amongst many others has a huge interest in this game. We as individuals allow this game to continue by our own actions. We drive cars, purchase needless goods, and generally consume the earth. It's Human Nature.

The U.S is no better or worse than any country on the earth. All the same.

peace

[rogue]

December 14, 2002, 12:36 PM EST

MOGADISHU, Somalia -- Ten years ago, Somalis welcomed American troops as saviors in their starved and battered land. Then they drove them out. Now many wish the Americans would come back. Drove us out?

Instead, they find themselves on President Bush's terrorism blacklist.

"We need them desperately. We need a rescue mission from the Americans," said Mohamed Jama Furuh, manager of the empty port where containers and cranes sit rusting in the sun. If they hadn't left, he said, "Somalia would have been one of the developing countries. It would not be the graveyard it is now."

Since 1991 there has been no government to speak of in this Texas-sized country of 7 million on the Horn of Africa. These days a two-year-old transitional regime runs barely half of Mogadishu, the capital. Warlords control the rest. About half a million Somalis are refugees in neighboring Kenya. Hundreds of thousands more are homeless in Somalia itself.

In October, at peace talks in Kenya, 20 factions and the transitional government endorsed a peace agreement calling for a cease-fire and a new system of government. But negotiations are months away from completion, and no one wants to disarm first, so clan-based clashes continue.

Gunfire is so common in Mogadishu that kids playing by a camp for homeless people in Mogadishu don't even look up when rounds from an AK-47 crackle in the humid air as a battered pickup speeds by loaded with gun-toting teenagers.

Crumbling government buildings and bullet-riddled villas from Italian colonial times line potholed, garbage-strewn streets. Assault rifles, heavy machine guns and grenade launchers are sold openly in markets.

On Dec. 9, 1992, U.S. troops waded ashore in Mogadishu in the glare of TV lights, the vanguard of a a 21-nation mission to feed hundreds of thousands of people during a war-induced famine.

The U.S.-led mission then turned its efforts to restoring order in Somalia, but dozens of U.N. peacekeepers and at least 25 U.S. troops were killed, along with hundreds, possibly thousands, of Somalis.

Now, even Somalis who fought the foreigners 10 years ago want America's help to end their nightmare.

"I believe they are the sole power who can do something for our country. We would like America to use its political influence, not through fighting, to bring peace to our country," said Dahir Mohamed Hassan.

Now in his 40s and a guard at a hotel, Hassan said he fought U.S. forces in the Oct. 3, 1993 battle of Mogadishu in which 18 Americans died trying to capture aides of faction leader Mohamed Farah Aidid.

"People lost confidence in the Americans when they started hunting Aidid, our comrade, our leader," said Hassan, who said he grabbed his AK-47 rifle in anger after a rocket fired by a U.S. helicopter destroyed his house.

Images of angry mobs dragging the bodies of dead U.S. soldiers through the streets were broadcast worldwide, and became the subject of the book and movie "Black Hawk Down." The Americans left in 1993 and the last U.N. peacekeepers were gone by March 1995.

Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden has been quoted as saying it was the battle of Mogadishu that led him to believe the Americans lacked the stomach for war.

Western countries then more or less ignored the largely Muslim nation -- until the Sept. 11 attacks.

President Bush put the country's largest company, Al-Barakat, and a Somali Islamic group, al-Ittihad al-Islami, on a list of groups believed to have links to al-Qaida. Israeli and U.S. officials suspect al-Ittihad was involved in last month's attack in Mombasa that killed 10 Kenyans and three Israelis.

Some 800 U.S. troops have set up base in neighboring Djibouti as part of the Combined Joint Task Force-Horn of Africa, and U.S. Navy and allied vessels patrol off Somalia's 2,000-mile coastline -- the longest in Africa.

"American forces will pursue the terrorists wherever they go, but that pursuit has to be carefully couched; hopefully it will be with a coalition ... with strict rules of engagement," said Col. Richard Mills, commander of the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit and a Mogadishu veteran. The unit recently held exercises in Djibouti and Kenya.

Somalis insist the link to terrorism is untrue. But Furuh, the port manager, acknowledges that Somalia is lawless and unable to police its borders.

"When the door is open, anybody can go through," he said.

Businessmen in Somalia have managed to set up TV and radio stations and one of the cheapest telephone networks in Africa. But the main port and airport have been closed since the peacekeepers departed, and gun battles can erupt anytime, anywhere.
Copyright © 2002, The Associated Press

[rogue]

I'd say we go back. As long as we get some of their oil, a few military bases and a round up of some warlords followed by a turkey shoot.:D

[David Jamieson]

Ok, the west is better than living in anarchy. :D

peace

[Laughing Cow]

Kung Lek.

Great Post, and I agree fully.


The U.S is no better or worse than any country on the earth. All the same.

Wish more people would realise that and act/vote according to that realisation.

Personally, I think that a lot of the tenets on which the USA operates need modernizing or adjustment.

The US constitution, IMHO, is outdated and no more fully applicable to modern day life and thus should be re-written to fit more in with todays views and morale standards.

I furthermore belief that if those things are not done than the US might fall into the same trap that countries fell into that the US now has contentions with.

Outdated beliefs and rules by which they govern their citizens.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[Braden]

Laughing Cow - How are you so sure what the "people" in the rest of the world think?

If you don't count governments as 'the rest of the world' and you don't trust the media, I'm really curious as to what's making you come to this opinion.

[Stacey]

outdated beliefs?

I couldn't agree more. Rome had a democracy and they found that it was rediculously ineffecient, so they went to a dictatorship and then imperialism that led to their downfall.

The US should do the same. Oh wait, we are. We do have a dictator with a lessening balance of powers.

Now as we overextend with Terrorism (Barbarian Hordes) and the various empires we will be ripe for a barbarian (Terrorist) takeover because we have underestimated these Celts.

When the East Coast is nuked to ****e, we can move the capitol to LA, but then China will nuke that, leaving little third world infrastructure in the midwest. We'll become rediculously religious and fun****etalism and may even instill a religious leader.

As China and other Powers take off where we left, we'll have no way to defend ourselves and resort to "Patriotic" Terrorist action.
This can all take place within the next 50 years.

Lets not kid ourselves.

[rogue]

The U.S is no better or worse than any country on the earth. All the same. In the words of knife fighter, boo sheet. KL are you saying there is equivilence between Haiti and Canada? Between Poland and Somolia?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Braden
Laughing Cow - How are you so sure what the "people" in the rest of the world think?

If you don't count governments as 'the rest of the world' and you don't trust the media, I'm really curious as to what's making you come to this opinion.

Answer was provided in a previous post to Yenhoi.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[yenhoi]

Hrm, Laughing Cow, ok Ill bite.

Iran was flirting with the Soviet Union and had this whole religious Fundamentalist movement going on. Both things the US didnt like. Iran does more then flirt with Russia now, and has a Islamic Fundamentalist Government. Why did you include Iran on your list?

Afghanistan a couple years ago was ruled by an Islamic Fundamentalist regime, illegally by "International Law." In addition to this, the regime at the time was hosting the leaders of a Terrorist group that we thought had just pulled off what we considered a very nasty crime on American Soil. (Well not really on the soil....)

Vietnam and Korea were both failing to Communism. Something America deemed unacceptable at the time.

Iraq was also flirting with the Soviet Union. When the US finally thought that particular threat was pretty much over (not to mention the Soviet Union was tearing itself apart) Iraq goes and invades little Kuwait, threatening the status quo of OIL supply.

I said earlier, we dont care about your warlords etc, as long as you dont mess with us, while we mess with you. Get it now? The hand moves pawns, knights, castles, queens, AND kings.

[David Jamieson]

In the words of knife fighter, boo sheet. KL are you saying there is equivilence between Haiti and Canada? Between Poland and Somolia?

Rogue -

power - no power - the equivalence is that we are all human and we all live together here.

peace

[Braden]

Laughing Cow - Do you ever wonder if perhaps the internet isn't a representative sample of world opinion?

[yenhoi]

Quote LaughingCow:

Answer was provided in a previous post to Yenhoi.

I missed that, very half assed answer. Maybe from your little computer media center where you communicate with 'the people' of the world, you might be able to find out for me exactly how many people in Russia are opposed to the war in a certain rebel muslim province? What is the opinion of Russia's 'people' concerning the terrorists in Georgia. Maybe you can tell me exactly how many people oppose United States troops in South Korea?

With the worlds most militarized nation at their northern border, I really doubt the South Koreans really agree with you. I dout you have any clue why they are even ****ed off over there.

[Laughing Cow]

So let me get this straight.

So something you guys deem unacceptable or don't like EVEN if it does not threaten you is inteference and thus an excuse to attack another country.
:eek: :eek: :eek:

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by yenhoi

I missed that, very half assed answer. Maybe from your little computer media center where you communicate with 'the people' of the world, you might be able to find out for me exactly how many people in Russia are opposed to the war in a certain rebel muslim province? What is the opinion of Russia's 'people' concerning the terrorists in Georgia. Maybe you can tell me exactly how many people oppose United States troops in South Korea?


And of course YOU know better, but you must if you can say that I am wrong.




With the worlds most militarized nation at their northern border, I really doubt the South Koreans really agree with you. I dout you have any clue why they are even ****ed off over there.

If North Kore was that militarized and interested in attacking the South, why haven't they done so by now??

Because of some US-Troops, really doubt that.
Ever talked to a North Korean, I have and have heard many things not mentioned in the Papers.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[yenhoi]

I think I mentioned this earlier: War is a tool of state. States compete with one another. The answer to your question (you dont answer mine) is yes, always has been, by all Countrys, Nations, States and always will be. When States compete, they do so with thier own interests in mind.

Why would France do 'whats best for the world' (even if it could fiqure that out somehow), California doesnt do whats best for Ohio, it does whats best for California.

[African Tiger]

If North Kore was that militarized and interested in attacking the South, why haven't they done so by now??

Don't delude yourself. Where did those SCUDs come from last week? Why does a country where people are eating stir fried rat need to have 1,000 mile range missiles? And who's a potential target in that region? Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong...?

Just 'cause they haven't, doesn't mean they WON'T

[yenhoi]

Because of some US-Troops, really doubt that.

You are correct. Tanks, airplanes, aircraft carriers, cruise missles, CIA death drones. They might have an effect on North Korea's actions towards the South. Also might I mention that it was US troops (+) that convinced the North get out of the South the last time. BTW North Korea IS that militarized, not was.

Ever talked to a North Korean, I have and have heard many things not mentioned in the Papers.

Yes, I have, and I have heard many things not mentioned in the Papers.

[Laughing Cow]

Yenhoi.

Yes. war can be a tool of a state.
But it should not be the first one employed.

Look at the EU the member states have risen above this "Rule of War" and joined to become a bigger, better entity and many more want to join.

Naturally Member states try to get the best share of the Pie, the same way there is struggle within a Company for position, salary, etc.

But I don't see the Company Workers attacking each other with Knifes, guns, etc to get ahead.

This is my point. You naturally need to look out first for your own interests, but you should do so by harming others.

Rules of engagement and strategy are the same if you face 1 opponent or many.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[Braden]

Did you see my question, Laughing Cow? I wasn't being facetious.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by yenhoi
I think I mentioned this earlier: War is a tool of state. States compete with one another. The answer to your question (you dont answer mine) is yes, always has been, by all Countrys, Nations, States and always will be. When States compete, they do so with thier own interests in mind.

Why would France do 'whats best for the world' (even if it could fiqure that out somehow), California doesnt do whats best for Ohio, it does whats best for California.

Everyone acts in their own self interest - that is human nature. While it would be admirable for governments to consider its neighbours in its decisionmaking process, they have to act in the interests of the nation they represent.

However, the problem is a lack of forward thinking in so many of the decision makers. An action that may be in the best interests of the nation right now may have repercussions that are detrimental to the nation (and possibly the world at large) further down the track e.g. protecting the flow of oil from the Middle East now may result in a world-wide conflict originating from the region in 5 years' time.

Don't get me wrong - I am not America-bashing. I believe my government is just as guilty of this as any other.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Braden
Did you see my question, Laughing Cow? I wasn't being facetious.

Yes, I saw your question and decline to answer.
Because no matter what I reply you will have something to say about it and thus nothing worthwhile can come from it.

Even If I give you the figures, you would say something against those (statistic collectoin method, etc).

Trying to get an agreement to a statement from a scientist is like trying to get a stone statue to get of it'spedestal and walk. IMPOSSIBLE.

Nature of the Beast I guess. ;)

But go ahead, if it makes you feel better:
" You are right in everything and I am wrong".

There ya go, Big Boy. Feel better now?

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[Braden]

Just so I get this straight, you don't want to give an answer because it would result in a reply?

So... answers, to you, are only useful if they're met with silence? Or, perhaps, met with agreement?

Out of curiosity, in your humorous remark about me being right, what am I right about?

[Laughing Cow]

WRONG.

I refuse to reply, because you would dispute the validy of the reply and the data as laid out by me in any case and thus giving one is a waste.


Out of curiosity, what am I right about?

Take your pick. Anything goes.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[Braden]

"I refuse to reply, because you would dispute the validy of the reply and the data as laid out by me in any case and thus giving one is a waste."

Would it be a waste if I didn't dispute it?

"Take your pick. Anything goes."

Can you give me an example?

[yenhoi]

Thanks for mentioning it Joedoe, that conflict is coming, and has been brewing for longer then Sept 11, 2001.

LaughingCow:

Yes. war can be a tool of a state.
But it should not be the first one employed.

Depends on the situation, but yep, your right! Concerning Iraq and the situtation the thread originally adressed, I dont see war as being the first tool employed. Can you even half-heartedly see that as being the case?

Look at the EU the member states have risen above this "Rule of War" and joined to become a bigger, better entity and many more want to join.

Hah. So did the North American States a couple hundred years ago. The EU is hardly an association of states you want to put on a pedestal. 'Specially after your bashing of Nato a few pages ago. Another inconsistency in your ideas I would like you to clarify (I know you wont.)

Rules of engagement and strategy are the same if you face 1 opponent or many.

Wrong, and stupid. If you were the leader of my platoon, I would kill you before you got the entire platoon killed. Tactics might be similar, if you faced each opponent, 1 at a time. Good luck with this philosophy.

This day of hell rain and nothing to do at work is over, thank god I can go hit a heavy bag and some people now.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by yenhoi

Hah. So did the North American States a couple hundred years ago. The EU is hardly an association of states you want to put on a pedestal. 'Specially after your bashing of Nato a few pages ago. Another inconsistency in your ideas I would like you to clarify (I know you wont.)


NATO was designed to achieve a certain goal, it has been achieved and thus NATO has become obsolete and a burden.



Wrong, and stupid. If you were the leader of my platoon, I would kill you before you got the entire platoon killed. Tactics might be similar, if you faced each opponent, 1 at a time. Good luck with this philosophy.

Funny Sun Tzu and Miyamoto Musashi agree with me. Read their Books with an open mind??

Don't let the ego and pre-conceived ideas cloud the mind when reading those.

The "Book of 5 Rings" is as much about personal combat as Military combat using armies, it even sez so within.

The "Art of War" can be applied to more than fighting between armies.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[wushu chik]

Guys,

Before starting WW3 on KFO...i have a question. He was voted in, isn't there some way to fix all this? Seriously. I don't like Bush as much as the next person, but he WAS (making an assumption here because i didn't personally count the ballots) voted into office. So, instead of arguing about it, isn't there something that can be done LEGALLY about it all??

We all knew going into his Presidency, there were going to be things like this. ALL OF US DID. Another Bush, Another Recession, Another War (quoting a friend). It was seen coming. Now, the question is, what do we do about it, if anything?

~Wen~

[rogue]

the equivalence is that we are all human and we all live together here. Agreed KL, but some of us here believe that burying a women up to here neck and then taking pitching practice because she had a kid out of wedlock, is just the right thing to do. Sorry KL I don't buy into all societies being morally equivelent.

[Laughing Cow]

Rogue.

The point being:
In order to live in ANY country you have to abide by it's local laws or face the punishment for breaking the law.

Point is:
She broke the Law knowingly and is being punished as per their Law.
This rule is the same for ANY country.

Don't want to face the punishment don't break the Law, simple and easy rule to live by.
Or make sure you don't get caught.

Don't like the Laws and punishment, either leave for greener pastures or try to get them changed.

Many old western laws were even more cruel than the shariah laws, difference is we fought to have them changed.

I disagree with the Death penalty, but does that mean that the countries that have it are wrong, evil, babaric or similar.

Take your pick:
A Person is punished with 10 lashes and goes free after 10 minutes as man with no blemish or stigma.
Or he gets locked up for a few years and can't get a job afterwards as an ex-convict, his Family is disgraced and maybe without a bread-winner.

Which do YOU choose?

Just my 0.2 cents worth.

[rogue]

Wow, I'm amazed. So arpatheid was fine in your book? So is slavery OK also? How about lynching black folks? Rounding up Jews and gypsies and gassing them? It was all legal right?

[wushu chik]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Many old western laws were even more cruel than the shariah laws, difference is we fought to have them changed.

Actually, if you want to get technical, many of the old laws WEREN'T changed, they're just no longer enforced by the government/law officials.

~Wen~

[David Jamieson]

rogue -

during the second world war, people from japan were interred. The conditions were not so great. They weren't death camps but hey.

In the whole of North America, an entire race of peoples was pressed so far down they will never gain there former state again. ever.

In Canada, the Chinese people here couldn't even vote til the 60's!

The civil and human rights of people in North America have been improving in the last 30 years but... there was a time.

Education is part of it. Morality is drawn out by cultural conditions and beliefs. Each culture possesses it's own. In short, no one is beyond reproach and the measurement of atrocities is toe to toe in many cases either in recent or not so recent memories.

The current condition will be same but different. The north american nations are relatively young as nations go. We shall see what comes of it all. Or maybe this is what is coming of it all.

peace

[Braden]

Laughing Cow -

"There ya go, Big Boy. Feel better now?... Take your pick. Anything goes..."

Your insinuation that I have an emotional investment in being called right seems to occur in spite of me having never even stated my opinion on the topic.

"I refuse to reply, because you would dispute the validy of the reply..."

On the other hand, you've clearly espoused the belief that you feel it worthless to reply to people who won't agree with you.

The irony here is pretty obvious.

You are right in that I probably would have disputed it. The internet is widely accepted as being dramatically biased and utterly unrepresentative. I suspect you recognize that though, which is why you chose to dodge the topic.

However, that isn't the point I would have made. Rather, I would have suggested that using media in any form as a conveyer of opinion is inappropriate, and an unfortunate perversion of the extremely important corrective value which media is supposed to have. Media should be a conveyer of information. Opinions should be your own. This is why I, as well as many others, are largely unswayed by arguments such as 'I've spoken to so many people who hate the US, it just must be terrible.' After all, an awful lot of people think Britney Spears is a fine musician, though the reality of the situation is she can play no instrument, nor write a song, nor sing on key. And this is why I ask for reasons for the assertions you make. Not because I'm looking for a consensus of opinion, but because I'm looking for information.

Actually, that's not entirely true. Mostly I ask because I believe discussion, in particular argument, is an extraordinarily valuable tool for ordering our own (my own, in my case) beliefs and thoughts. This can only occur if people disagree and outline why they disagree. That people disagree does not devalue a discussion, in my opinion, in fact it gives the discussion it's value. That people take personal offense at being disagreed with is, frankly, baffling.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by rogue
Wow, I'm amazed. So arpatheid was fine in your book? So is slavery OK also? How about lynching black folks? Rounding up Jews and gypsies and gassing them? It was all legal right?

Did I say that.

What I am saying is that they got laws based on their values and beliefs the same way your Laws are based on yours.
Their Country is not the US, UK or any other, but their own.

Point is BOTH got laws and enforce them, that is the common denominator.

Theirs are babaric from your viewpoint and yours are stupid from theirs.

Don't wanna be punished, than don't go and break the law/rules.
That is the bottom line.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Braden
That people take personal offense at being disagreed with is, frankly, baffling.

I didn't take offense of any kind.
Plenty of People disagree with me and my viewpoints, no skin of my back.

Lots of the disagreements are not so much due to facts but due to different backgrounds and upbringings.
With different backgrounds and understandings of things it is natural that often no common ground can be achieved.

I enjoy discussions, but had it when they get bogged down on a point or two and thus dis-engage from them.

Just a personal quirk of mine.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[Laughing Cow]

Rogue.

FYI, the way that lady is supposed to be punished is a follows.

Buried to the west and if she can get free before she dies from the stones she is absolved of all her crimes.
Another Woman got off by digging herself out very recently.

Buried to the neck is for a different offense.

Rapist are castrated by the father of the victim. I.e. NO repeat offense possible.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[rogue]

Well that changes everything. Sorry but maybe there's still a little of the guy in me who wrote letters for Amnesty International, but that is just a cop out LC.

I've always like this little motto...
"De Oppresso Liber"
(To Free the Oppressed)

[Laughing Cow]

Rogue.

Not a problem.

Having been raised in a western(Christian) country I understand your point.

Having experienced the world and seen many things first-hand changed my viewpoints.

As for AI, Greenpeacce and their ilk I dislike them a lot.
Why?
Those need to keep finding causes to justify their existence and thus are not 100% objective.

Personally, I see a point to quick punishment over incarceration that cost a lot of money and effort to maintain and is a burden on the tax-payers.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought,

[rogue]

Penal code of Iran

Article 102: A man who is sentenced to death by stoning is to be buried to his waist, while a woman who is to be stoned must be buried up to her chest.

south african times (http://www.suntimes.co.za/2002/09/22/insight/in11.asp)

[Laughing Cow]

Rogue.

Penal code if Iran does not apply to Shariah law in kenya. ;)

Shariah law is kinda a local interpretations.

But what you have their makes sense, as man are considered more important as they are the breadwinners, since women are not supposed to be working.
The rule of escape still stands though.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[rogue]

Maybe we could stop by kick some Kenyan ass on the way to helping the Iranians.;)

[dezhen2001]

Kenya is another state controlled by warlords and stuff who use and abuse Islamic Shariah just like the Taliban did.

Death by stoning in Shariah ONLY would occur if there were 4 EYEWITNESSES to the event and that testified. If there was ANY doubt then it WOULD NOT happen. Also if any of the eyewitnesses were found to be lying then THEY would face severe punishment - even possible stoning themselves. Thats why it doesnt happen much apart from when people abuse it.

im out of here before i get shat on again :eek:

dawood

[MonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
The USA is the primary military weapon exporter in the world

Try third after the PRC and the Russian Commonwealth.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by MonkeyBoy


Try third after the PRC and the Russian Commonwealth.

Hmm, my info differs.

Asahi Article (http://www.asahi.com/english/asianet/hatsu/eng_hatsu020405f.html)

The United States is by far the world's biggest arms exporter, followed by Russia, France, Britain and Germany. After the Cold War, Asia became the marketplace for old and new Western-made weapons, while local arms industries grew.

I also saw another article in another newspaper that gave the actual figures in a chart.

This was only last week.

Unless you are refering to this:
BBC Article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2042404.stm)
or this:
Asia Times (http://www.cdi.org/russia/213-9.cfm)

Either way the US still holds rank Number 2, no mention about China as a large exporter anywhere to be found.

If the US refuses to sell to certain countries, they will simply look for another supplier.

End result USA lost money in sales and those Countries still got what they wanted.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[ZIM]

I've a life outside of KFO, so I just read all that I'd missed. Some comments:

LC- you're all over the place, far-ranging. An observation, not necessarily a criticism. I'm trying to see an over-arching POV but not quite seeing it. Populist?

WRT US involvemnet in various areas that "were no threat"- we were in Vietnam at the behest of France, so I guess the US was a pawn of snaileaters back then. Korea was a UN sanction. Iran took many US citizens hostage. I forget the rest that were mentioned...in all cases, diplomacy was used first.

Wushuchik wondered whether there were any legal ways to sanction/control Shrub. Maybe not anymore: "With fellow Republicans set to run Congress and a federal court
upholding his right to secrecy, President Bush over the next two
years will be protected from potentially embarrassing congressional
investigations into his administration, especially its relationship
with big corporate donors, government officials say."

See "Officials See Bush Insulated from Hill Probes" by Jim VandeHei,
December 15:here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55615-2002Dec14.html)

The US does not export weapons- we place them strategically:D OR we drop them on hapless civilians:rolleyes:

LAST (whew!) in no way is NATO outdated and useless. Many times, after a supposed threat is dissipated, gov'ts heed the call to roll back forces. Thats often the door thru which enemies begin to come. Vigilance is the price of freedom. :)

[Merryprankster]

Remember that nobody actually knows what moves out of the Former Soviet Union, thanks to the black market... and nobody knows what actually moves out of China. I would estimate that the official numbers are wrong by quite a bit.

At least the business dealings in the developed west are far more transparent.

[red5angel]

LC - a couple of things, Braden is pretty good at discussing his opinion without much personal and emotional investment, he has been around this forum a while doing it without a problem, although I notice one trend, he does get a little annoyed when someone starts telling him his opinions are invalid because he seems to not be arguing the way they want.

"Having experienced the world and seen many things first-hand changed my viewpoints."

I don't buy you have been anywhere much in the world, either that or you just don't pay much attention to what is going on around you when you are out and about. Take a quick perusal of your replies and insinuations as compared to say Bradens, or Rogues, or just about anyone elses. While most of them are attempting to back up their arguments with resources your lacking in that respect. As a matter of fact I am more apt to say that what you are accusing Braden of is more applicable to your mode of discussion then his.
You seem to have an emotional investment in America bashing and support it with a one sided and very narrow view of the way things work in the world.

For instance, while it might be easier for you to believe that assassination as a policy is "illegal" in the US, that followed a decision by the UN to make it illegal. You could also believe that it was a moral decision, or that maybe it's just the US who breaks the laws every once in a while that the UN sets out but again, you are fooling yourself and backing yourself into a corner with a one sided argument.

"So something you guys deem unacceptable or don't like EVEN if it does not threaten you is inteference and thus an excuse to attack another country"

Why wouldn't a threat to us be a reason to go to war? What reason exactly do you need? how about the deaths of 3000 "innocent" civillians?

"If North Kore was that militarized and interested in attacking the South, why haven't they done so by now??"

How about because if they do they have us to face? Of course reading a news paper in the last say 20 years would tell you this ;)


"I refuse to reply, because you would dispute the validy of the reply and the data as laid out by me in any case and thus giving one is a waste."

Keeeerist!!!!! Above all else what the hell is this supposed to mean?! Laughing Cow, if you don't want to have a discussion then keep your trap shut, it's that simple.......

[Merryprankster]

I, on the other hand, am Braden's cranky counterpart. I make decent points, but have no problems calling a lackwit a lackwit. :D

I don't make as many friends.

Oh, and Braden, yes, I was kidding about the Canada thing. Using sarcasm to make a point, as you surmised.

James

[red5angel]

Right MP ;)

[ZIM]

Thanks R5!


"If North Kore was that militarized and interested in attacking the South, why haven't they done so by now??"

They do! They've killed Olympic athletes, built tunnels thru the DMZ, etc.

North Korea is best known the 1987 midair bombing of KAL Flight 858 and the 1983 Rangoon bombing aimed at South Korean Government officials.

They also probly assassinate. The Republic of Korea suspects that North Korean agents were involved in the murder of a South Korean official in Vladivostok on 1 October 1996, which shortly followed a North Korean warning that it would retaliate if Seoul did not return the bodies of several North Korean infiltrators killed in South Korea.

Other subject-
I included an article by Vidal above which was critical of policy. Now lets have two from a more neutral view, ok?;)
this (http://www.meforum.org/article/503) and that (http://www.meforum.org/article/512). They are longish, but I esp. like the first, and expect R5 would too. ;) Dezhen2001 read the 2nd, if you would? I'd love to hear comments. :)

[MightyB]

I read about half of this thread. This shouldn't even be on KFO.

Kids, you all are pretty pathetic. If you don't like the US, fine. If you live here, get the f.uck out. We don't want you. If you oppose us...

We've been asleep for a long time. We didn't want to assume the role of world leadership, it was forced upon us. News flash, we will finish this "war on terrorrism". It won't end with the downfall of the US. How many countries will be turned into seas of glass is the question.

I personally would like the US to become truly xenophobic. Heck, I would be glad as hel! if we stopped supporting every third rate economy on this planet. I'd be glad to let the rest of the world starve. I'd be glad to see you all kill each other.

Japan man, the guy who started this thread- Emporer McArther built your post wwii country in an image as he saw fit. We constantly are bailing your xenophobic arrogant self serving asses out of everything. I hope North Korea nukes your insignificant dirt ball island back to the stone age.

Peace... a time for reloading.

[red5angel]

yeah but MightyB, how do you really feel? ;)

[Laughing Cow]

A public relations disaster

For an American expatriate who has lived in Asia for more than eight years and fallen in love with Japan and Korea, several days recently were ones of disappointment. First, I picked up an issue of the International Herald Tribune in Hong Kong and saw a picture of a restaurant in Seoul with a huge sign displayed on its window: "Americans are not welcome here." This xenophobia is no doubt related to the acquittal of two American soldiers by a U.S. military court in the tragic death of two Korean girls during a military exercise. Six days later I read about yet another U.S. military-related incident on Okinawa. A U.S. Marine major, no less, had been accused of attempting to rape a resident Filipino woman.

I am disappointed in my compatriots in uniform because I have no doubt, from everything that I have witnessed and read, that many have been poor ambassadors or representatives of the United States during the past 52 years in South Korea and Japan, their contribution to stability, democracy and prosperity in these countries notwithstanding.

On the other hand, even after 9/11, I cannot imagine any restaurant in the U.S. displaying a sign that would read, "Arabs are not welcome here." Actually I think that would be illegal in any restaurant or public place in America. Similarly, the public statements by some Japanese public officials over the alleged attempted rape are inappropriate. For example, Okinawa Gov. Keiichi Inamine was quoted as saying, "It was committed by a serviceman who is required to act as a leader."

The timing of the statement is a bit off. In the U.S., a person is innocent until proven guilty. This officer had not been formally arrested, charged or tried, much less convicted -- except maybe by Inamine. In any case, I look forward to the day when the U.S. armed forces leave Japan and Korea for good. Their presence has been a public relations disaster.

JAMES LA-GIGLIA
Hong Kong

I have to agree with James after taking a stock of news about US Military personnel their record is not too hot.

There seems to be a stream of rapes, DUI, Hit and runs, fights, sexual harraqssements, stealing of cars for joy-rides from locals and also 1 guy was convicted of being a serial arsonist.

[Laughing Cow]

Avoiding our own arrogance

In response to James Hughes' Dec. 1 letter, "Whose history is better?," I never made the claim (in an earlier letter) that any country has a pristine history. In fact, I made exactly the opposite point in order to say that in examining the destructive results of imperialistic hubris by other societies we might learn something about our own arrogance and where it will lead us.

But before we can do that, we need to recognize that part of America's imperialistic arrogance arises from the lie of calling ourselves a peaceful, democratic nation devoid of an imperialist impulse -- a lie made clear by the many examples of violence and war in our own history that have risen directly from conflicts of economic interests and the pursuit of capitalist profit (i.e., oil in the Middle East).

Instead of looking at the imperialism of others and seeing it as license to carry on our own imperialistic pursuits, we could truly be a peaceful, democratic society and gain some wisdom by learning from the examples of others how to avoid our own arrogance and destruction. Regardless of what any other society has done, we alone are responsible and accountable for our history. Pointing out the faults of other societies is no excuse for the war and violence we ourselves make in pursuit of our own imperialistic interests.

RUBEN MENDOZA
Los Angeles

[Laughing Cow]

Here is a link to the above letters and some more.

Readers in Council (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/ric.htm)

Personally, I find sections like this a very good indicator of what People think and how they feel about issues.

Wish more Newspapers did those.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[rogue]

France (http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20021217-113407-7783r)

Germany (http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1430_A_716376_1_A,00.html)

The US (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/lizagest1.html)

Meanwhile back in Amsterdam (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,73061,00.html)

[wushu chik]

Just heard today that 2/3 of the country's not for Bush's war. They feel that there's not enough to start bombing them. What do you guys think?

~Wen~

[straight blast]

Japan man, the guy who started this thread

It appears to me that you are a little bit confused. I started this thread. Perhaps the bit on my profile (or indeed my info that comes up next to my posts) that says "Location: Australia" wasn't quite informative enough.

I am from Australia.

There ya go.

If you are trying to make derogatory comments about a particular country in relation to a particular person please at least get the correct area of the world. I know there's a lot to choose from, but all of my American friends can tell the difference between Japan & Australia.

I feel no need to apologise for asking the opinions of others on what is fast becoming a global issue that may one day impact on all of us even in the 'safety' of our kwoons. I am actually interested in what they have to say as opposed to the racist ramblings of an intellectual infant.


We constantly are bailing your xenophobic arrogant self serving asses out of everything. I hope North Korea nukes your insignificant dirt ball island back to the stone age.

And I hope that you one day evolve beyond said age.

I am just glad that with your sense of geography that it isn't you aiming the missiles :rolleyes:

The "Japan man" thing was probably a simple mistake, but the racism wasn't. I can't abide racism for the simple fact that it is like your post: Ignorant.

Hope this helps ;)

[dezhen2001]

ZIM: cant really comment on the article as i have no experience with what it describes... u can see my pic, im 100% scottish and came to Islam, only around 6 weeks ago :) How can i talk about any of these things happening anywhere else? i have no idea :confused:

i only know what i have experienced and been taught, and thats not very much. So thats why im not posting as i dont know anything about politics or war or oil or the UN :)

anyway back to the regularly scheduled programme i guess :rolleyes:

dawood

[MonkeyBoy]

Since none can see the forest for all the trees.

We are banging the war drum to stir our economy.

Sometimes it works, sometime you have to actually fight one.

When Clinton sent half a billion dollars worth of cruise missles to towards Osama north of Kabul and missed, my General Electric stock went up.

I back checked and it went up a lot more when Bush the First went to Iraq.

As far as the morality of another war, it's a hard call. Sadam gassed his own people, he gassed his neighbors. If it comes to war and it eases suffering, brings justice and helps our flagging Christmas sales, then there's your appealing to a higher morality argument right there.

No matter how long he lives, no matter what he's done since, he should not be drinking the same water nor enjoying the same sunlight that those of us who do not murder nor condone the murders of the innocent do.

[Laughing Cow]

MonkeyBoy.

Do you truly believe that anyone is innocent?

We are all guilty, maybe some more and maybe some less but guilty nonetheless.

Kinda reminds of a speech given long time ago by a Priest opposing the Inquisition in Germany.

" Frist you torture me than I wil torture you and in the end we will BOTH have confessed to Devil's worship and be burned on the stake."

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[ZIM]

Oh, rats. Well thanks for giving it a go!

[MonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Do you truly believe that anyone is innocent?

The Swiss, the Canadians and the Eskimo all come up clean in my book.

Sadam, as an individual, has a worse record on human rights than China did during the cultural revolution. His domestic methodology is akin to Stalinist purges and his battlefield strategy is as old as our Civil War and even with Poison Gas is still less effective.

While war is bad, there are far worse things. I am reminded of two quotes to whom I can't attribute an author:

"The only thing neccesary for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing."

"A good man is hard to find."

So keep in mind you need both good men and action.

Good men alone don't make the grade.

[red5angel]

Wuchu Chik - I am not for "Bush's" War either but I believe action in Iraq is practically unavoidable while Saddam is in power. he will continue to support terrorist in anyway he can to do damage to the US. This to me is enough to go to war.


Monkeyboy - "The swiss, Canadians and Eskimo all come up clean in my book.."

Sometimes not doing anything at all is as bad as doing the wrong thing.

[ZIM]

Oh man....:eek:
Sometimes not doing anything at all is as bad as doing the wrong thing.

[MightyB]

What happened the last time the US took a full isolationist foreign policy?



Hint...


We just had an American anniversary for one of the world's most cowardly acts...


Hint...


Millions of People died, through combat, and systematic execution...


Hint...


Some of the worst atrocities of Man against Man were committed in Nanking...


Hint...


Hitler was appeased...



Hint...


Hirihito was spared from the just retribution of his involvement in nasty war crimes for political reasons...


Hint...


The US began the arms race and a new foreign policy mission so that it could never happen again...

[red5angel]

MightyB - excellent point. This is exactly what I was getting at a while back with the idea that someone has to do the policing. It's better if an organization like the UN can do it but sometimes you need someone willing to do what is necessary but not tasteful. While the US has foreign interest we help to stabilize what we can one way or another. Other wise someone gets itchy, and things start to fall apart.

ZIM - don't agree?