The end of "classical" martial arts? or Will Modern Media make them obsolete?

[rogue]

Will Modern Media make classical (aka traditional) arts obsolete? I was drinking some Jamesons, eating some cashews and thinking how advancments in media (video, internet, clear books) are effecting classical arts. Is it just a matter of time before most if not all techniques are on video, or in print with clear pictures and text? And once the knowlage gets out how will it effect the teacher/student relationship? Why stay with a sifu who's doling out information in small amounts when you could find it on the net?

Time to refill my glass and get some more cashews.;)

[neptunesfall]

no, because a sifu who's learned in the classic ways will know how to correct your body mechanics. a picture or video can't do that.

[David Jamieson]

I agree with NF regarding the need for correction.

I also think that learning is an iterative process and that in any learning cycle, the law of diminishing returns will come eventually and you have to spread out and become open to learning from everything around you.

If you only have one book to read in your whole life, then your views will be tied to that book and that book alone. Of course there is experience and that is a great teacher.

But when you start any course of study, you have to start somewhere. To grow old with a course of study, imo, you're on your own. You have to make it your own, mistakes or not.

There are outlets to test your skills as well both in form and in function.

Point is, videos and books are of extreme value to the martial arts as they are to all arts and sciences. If left with no choice but these and a strong urge or impetus to learn, then that's what a person would do until such time as they could find correction if and when required.

Depends entirely on the person.

peace

[Laughing Cow]

No.

The guys that mimic MA have been around for centuries and will keep doing so.

Books and Videos can be training aids of value. I myself use a Video of my Sifu to assist me in analyzing his movements and thus try to gain a better understanding of the Art and how the principles are applied.
I also read a lot of Books and Articles about the style I study.

Like with anything else in life there will always be people simply looking at the surface and only see the "cool" impressive stuff and will never penetrate deep into those things.

Many other things have found their way onto books and Videos, but I don't see any less skilled top-performers in those (aka guitar playing, painting, driving skills whatever).

It still takes the same effort and guidance to become good, there are no shortcuts or similar.
The People that can/will train the correct way will always be there, but hardly ever in the limelight.

Just my 0.2 cents worth.

[TaoBoy]

What is seen is not the same as what is felt.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I had a giant thread on this about four years ago. Switch to MacCallan's 25, and you'll advance further ;)

[Stacey]

sifus need to impress. When a basic arm bar is no longer magic, they will make it magic by adding more details or showing a counter technique.

Is it good? Not really. More and more lowlife bums know joint manipulation and princibles of the martial arts. They kick, elbow and knee, use palm strikes etc.

more and more is coming out because more is known.

[rogue]

no, because a sifu who's learned in the classic ways will know how to correct your body mechanics. a picture or video can't do that. So a sifu or sensei becomes more coach than teacher? And how much time do you need to spend getting your body mechanics right? Could someone get by just on seminars? Also why is knowledge of body mechanics exclusive to a classically taught teacher?

What if a person has a good amount of training time under their belt and has people to work on techniques and experiment with? I have friends who study classical arts(TKD, TCC, WC, various karate styles) and most lack that deeper knowledge that some of you say comes from a classically trained background.

Personally I believe that the market place will drive those with "advanced" knowledge of their art to share more and more in order to compete and to sell videos and books. Right now most videos and books are basic but that's changing.

Monkeyslap Too, I've now moved on to Harvey Wallbangers and pringles. :D

[Laughing Cow]

Stacey.

Modern media trainingcan and will take you only so far.

There are a few things it cannot do:
1.) Give you phsyical/hands on correction like a Sifu would.
2.) Answer your questions and thus deepen your understanding.
3.) Spar with you.
4.) Boost your morale and entice you to do that extra effort needed to get good.
5.) Give you the "feel" of watching and observing your Sifu in person.

Most of the stuff I have seen so far on Tapes and Books is not really that in-depth or detailed enough to exist solely on it's own.

In our Kwoon Sifu often demonstrates certain things by allowing us to touch him and feel, often this type of teaching cannot be relayed via words or images alone.

I kinda is the difference between music performed by an untutored Kid and listening to the original Performer.
It might be the same on the surface but it won't feel the same.

Just my 0.2 cents worth

[rogue]

I agree with you Stacey. What happens when a junior student can gain more insight into techniques by research than a senior student who waits for his sifu to ration it out.

[The Willow Sword]

Well i seem to think that most things deemed "classical" are in fact NOT classical. they are either B@stardizations of the "classical" or Greatly modified as in the communist party reforming the martial arts in the 50's.

But on the other hand. If we look at the history of the combative arts in a realistic perspective, the term "classical" has no real meaning. Martial arts constantly evolve,improve or change into something else, such as the nature of ALL things, it does not remain constant, it in fact DOES change,regardless of Media.
i would think that the only thing that remains constant in this world is the mentality that suggests that something is not "Authentic" unless it is exactly how it was 100 or 500 years ago.
:rolleyes:


Many respects,,The Willow Sword

[neptunesfall]

So a sifu or sensei becomes more coach than teacher?
if they're a good sensei or teacher they are a coach. they show you how to do something, then they show you how to do it correctly.

And how much time do you need to spend getting your body mechanics right?
as long as it takes.

Could someone get by just on seminars?
most likely, no.

Also why is knowledge of body mechanics exclusive to a classically taught teacher?
as opposed to a teacher who just learned from videos and books? seriously, who would you rather learn from, someone trained classically by a teacher or a 'sifu' who only learned from videotape?
videotapes and books are useful as refreshers and reminders, but not much more. there are things too intricate to transmit in such a static form. interaction with a teacher leads to discussion, which leads to questions which leads to answers, which in turn leads to more questions.
discussion with a videotape just makes you look crazy.

What if a person has a good amount of training time under their belt and has people to work on techniques and experiment with?
a good amount of training time with a teacher or videotapes?

I have friends who study classical arts(TKD, TCC, WC, various karate styles) and most lack that deeper knowledge that some of you say comes from a classically trained background.
who taught their teachers? who are their teachers? how did their teachers train? how did their teachers train them?
traditional Okinawan Karate and TKD are rarities, i wouldn't be surprised at someone who has studied these and doesn't know much. i say the same about Tai Chi (if this is what you mean by TCC), since most of it is new agey am-pm fruitcake stuff.

let me pose this question to everyone in general...
would you enter a NHB match having learned from only videotapes and books?

[dezhen2001]

good thread rogue :)

hmmm... my thoughts:

nothing can replace having a real sifu. For me its not just the training that helps me understand and develop the skill... also the analogies/stories/experiences he can share, and basically seeing how my Sifu deals with things in everyday life not just training.

There has to be that level of interaction, and you just cant get that from a book/video. think of the likes of yip man... he taught wing chun to so many people and helped 'personalize' it to each person... can a video and book do that? nope. they can only teach you basic common principles/techniques and theories.

so for me its quite clear :)

BUT using them as reference and a study aid can be good, as long as you are still training properly imo...

got any more cashews btw? :D

dawood

[JusticeZero]

1: I've seen people who train through looking at videos and such, as it is epidemic in my art, though mainly in the tackier descendants of Regional.
Let's not mince words. They suck. I can take a week and train someone from scratch to leave a third-year self-training guy on the floor. They have mistakes in their form which are utterly mindboggling. They lock their knees, they have no concept of their own footwork, they lock themselves out, they don't have the slightest clue how to play. But they can do a triple spinning back walkover.
2: I've seen videos teaching techniques and forms. They're rarely, if ever, the real stuff. The self defense video for Capoeira that Panther kicked out apparently included a backflip as applied self defense for escaping from two people with baseball bats if you happenned to be standing on top of a delivery van at the time. Seminar applications tend to be the most surreal and implausible applications the teacher can come up with.

Video tape will not teach you the good stuff. It will not spend hours trying to solidify the principles behind a technique. It won't show you how to apply the concepts to your own personal needs. Heck, video tape can't even tell you when you're doing a movement in a way that you're going to damage yourself, quickly, by continuing. All the video tape is is a footnote.

[SevenStar]

the age of information has done some very positive things for MA, however - it's made information available. It's shown people that there should be no secrets in the MA, and has lent itseld to people as a tool that can help them to identify fraudulent schools. It will not make the classical arts obsolete, but it will definitely change them.

[Mr Punch]

I don't think it will make that much difference. It's not like there's any shortage of charlatans anyway! Most people will always want some kind of interaction and feedback from live partners and teachers in this kind of physical discipline.

Apart from sad, lonely sociopaths... who will be more than happy to learn from vids in between polishing their Spydercos and shooting cans off their back fences...

Has anyone seen Budokan recently? :D

Black Jack ? :(

[SevenStar]

It's already changed it. It's exposed "secrets" that should never have been secrets anyway. things that were hidden from students, or kept within the school have been shared with the public.

[Mr Punch]

Man, I'm not arguing with you and your scary new caption!


I agree!:D

[SevenStar]

:D

[rogue]

Sevenstar is getting the idea behind the question.

Please read my two quotes.

What if a person has a good amount of training time under their belt and has people to work on techniques and experiment with?

What happens when a junior student can gain more insight into techniques by research than a senior student who waits for his sifu to ration it out.

For example, I'm also thinking about the Leung Ting interview in KFM where he corrects bad habits of WT people. I thought it was a great way of passing on information which it seems is not being passed along his system in a uniform manner.

[GLW]

If you are an instructor and can be replaced by a book or a video....You are NOT much of an instructor.

If you are a student and you feel you can get all you need out of a book or a video, YOU are NOT setting very high expectations of yourself and you definitely are not digging very deeply.

If instructors could be replaced by books and video - or online training, CBT, etc... every major corporation in the world would do away with their training budget. The universities would fund the creation of these training materials ...and then fire all of the professors and turn into 100% research facilities - that would do away with tenure because tenure is tied to ACADEMIC freedom and is not really hooked into the corporate mindset of research and making money.

[rogue]

The main idea behind the question...

And once the knowledge gets out how will it effect the teacher/student relationship? Why stay with a sifu who's doling out information in small amounts when you could find it on the net?

Secondary points:
2. Forms are not needed as a catalogue for a systems techniques. Print along with videos are clearer and more concrete. Less information gets lost.

3. A snapshot of the system can be recorded getting rid of silly lineage arguments about who taught who what.

4. And like Sevenstar said, modern media can help get rid of secrets that shouldn't be secrets.

[Laughing Cow]

Here are some thoughts.

I see froms as a method to train Body movement, not as a way to train Martial skill.
Forms can also show you how to use those Body movements to achieve certain results.

Martial Skill is done via Tui Shou, San Shou and Weapons training or equivalent in your system.

So learning the Forms from a Video might get you to a level where you got the physical foundation to start the true martial training and this can only be learned from a Sifu.

Just my 0.2 Cents worth.

[David Jamieson]

If instructors could be replaced by books and video - or online training, CBT, etc... every major corporation in the world would do away with their training budget. The universities would fund the creation of these training materials ...and then fire all of the professors and turn into 100% research facilities - that would do away with tenure because tenure is tied to ACADEMIC freedom and is not really hooked into the corporate mindset of research and making money.

GLW- This is indeed happening in the Corporate marketplace.
I might also add that when times are tight for the big money companies, the first thing on the chopping block is educational services.

Universities have been encouraging online education for years now. The technology to do it has caught up and subsequently you can acquire degrees completely online.

Now, in terms of tactile learning, which is anecessity in many fields, not the least of which is martial arts, then "LAB time" is required to test theory and to correct hypothesis.

The "snapshot" idea, I like. THis is a perfectly valid argument.
The Shaolin and many others have codified, canonized and written down and drawn many a form over the years.

You can't learn something that requires tactile repitition without actually doing it and so, you must do.

I do not discount the value of a good teacher having had a few good teachers in various fields. But I don't discredit the human mind either. We are all more than capable of time and effort and we are all more than capable of succeeding on our own.

A child learns differently than a grown person and an old person learns differently than a younger person. Martial arts do not contain great secrets. It is laid out in the template that is your body. Tyhe hardest part is the work effort to understand what your limitations and capabilities are in the framework you choose to work in.

In short, books and videos and dvds and cbts are a huge boon to martial arts. The only ones who cheapen an art are those who don't do it well yet still try to sell it. :D

peace

[joedoe]

I believe the value in modern media in the MA is not so much for teaching but more for recording lessons for later review and refinement. But for the initial learning, nothing beats having a face-to-face teacher.

Here is another question - could you coach a sportsperson/sporting team solely through manuals and videos?

[rogue]

Once again, I'm not saying to never have a teacher, but how does the free flow of information change what a sifu or sensei offer. As time goes by more and more of these systems will be recorded and with that one part of what some sifu offer, secret techniques, will be just some more tools for any martial artists to put in their toolbox.

[Laughing Cow]

Here are 3 tenets from my style/Kwoon:

4. Honing observations: If you do not pay meticulous attention to the movements, your understanding of the principles and the process will become vague and unconnected. Especially, pay close attention and try to fathom what the teacher is doing. Without honing and listening, the Qi and the movement of Neijin will not flow smoothly in one go, and it will be impossible to attain the state of Taihe-Yuanqi (harmony with the generative energy of the universe.)

5. Reading books: Read about Taijiquan theory. The practice comes more easily if you understand the theory.

6. Learn Yinyang Kaihe first: The study of Taijiquan is about Yinyang Kaihe. Yinyang Kaihe has a natural presence in the body. Study will neither enhance nor decrease it. Teachers should encourage students to recover their awareness of this presence naturally. Teachers should embody the principles of Taiji, and teach with moderation, so that their students come to understand this balance accordingly.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[David Jamieson]

JoeDoe- I agree with your first statement and cannot answer your question. :D

Has it been done yet? Video is used by virtually all professional sports to learn from. Heavily.

It's also been used extensively to encourage fitness in many a home.

For the subtelties that are in Kung Fu and Qigong and a wide variety of other arts, it is usually described pretty well in better publications and videos.

An example:

My friend learned a form from the curriculum we both studied. He learned it from watching a grainy video of his sihing and a book that contained the form as well.

He could perform the form better than I could. What can I say? :D
I don't suck that much.

Weird eh?

peace

[joedoe]

Well, I agree that you could probably never replace a sifu/sensei in MA - videos and books just don't convey some things as well as face-to-face explanation, and touch. Some things have to be experienced to be understood.

I also believe that there comes a point in your training when you have to start discovering things for yourself - your teacher can only point you in the right direction. In that case, videos may be your best friend or your worst enemy :).

[SevenStar]

In answer to Joedoe's question - yes. Personal trainers are coaches. All that is required to get certified is to read the books, maybe watch some tapes, and then take a test. that will give you the book knowledge that you need, and from there you are able to take clients.

[GLW]

"GLW- This is indeed happening in the Corporate marketplace.
I might also add that when times are tight for the big money companies, the first thing on the chopping block is educational services.

Universities have been encouraging online education for years now. The technology to do it has caught up and subsequently you can acquire degrees completely online."

The University business is a sideline. they also have online one on one Q&A time with the professors. The stuff being described here does NOT have that.

Corporate training...it is generally a boodoggle. Typical 5 day off site classes that corporations pay big bucks for can be condensed down to on or 1.5 days of real training. In almost 20 years, I have been to only TWO classes that were filled for the entire time with material.

But the real question - Would YOU HIRE a person with a correspondence degree. Personally, I would NOT unless they had some very good references and work history.

And that is for academic endeavors.

Martial arts - this is a thing of building body / muscle memory, movement, etc... Given that many have extreme self perception disorders, such learning will only owrk for the most gifted of student. Even then, the same student would do even better with a gifted teacher.

There is also the role of the teacher as nourisher and protector. Training must progress at a certain level to be done without injury. It is difficult - and often impossible, to do this part any way but in person.

But...hey - if you would like to learn from a CBT trained instructor... :)

[Laughing Cow]

One problem I see is that many new students will start to rely on the media to give them all the answers, rather than trying to figure a few things out for themselves.

The problem with form videos is that is show 1 personal way of executing the form.

I have often seen it in the kwoon that some students try to copy the form EXACTLY as they see it done by their Sifu and don't adjust it for themselves
and hence often pick up a peculiarity that is unique to their sifu.

Now this, IMO, will happen more often with students studying from tapes and similar media.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.