there has been some moaning about recent topics

[OdderMensch]

Have you ever tried for hours to go to sleep, then a couple hours into sleep you wake up, certain you know how a certain move should be done, or a meaning you missed in a kuit, or something your sihing said just clicked?

yeah well its almost 5am here in the states and i thats what just happened.

In chum kui, there is a section where you reach over, pull to one side and kick. when your foot lands, it pulls you to the side on the line you just kicked. While you are being pulled, your gaurd forms a bong sau, wu sau structure.

now this is where it gets interesting.

your gaurd changes, the bongs elbow sinks, the wu sau settles, then you reform a bong sau and, following the elbow, step accordingly. I thought of two points you might step, and could not remember which one to use. I had to get up and check.

my question is this, when do you step? I know two different chum kuis now, and I beleive they agree, but I need to sleep, so won't be able to realy check till morning.

and since there has been some whineing about non-technical threads of latel(being those less about body mechanics then political dynamics) so lets disscus this. I'll write out my thoughts (what i thought was "right" why i think I was wrong) now then post them later.

so have at it, when do you step at that point, and why?

[yuanfen]

Odder Mensch-sez:In chum kui, there is a section where you reach over, pull to one side and kick. when your foot lands, it pulls you to the side on the line you just kicked. While you are being pulled, your gaurd forms a bong sau, wu sau structure.


your gaurd changes, the bongs elbow sinks, the wu sau settles, then you reform a bong sau and, following the elbow, step accordingly. I thought of two points you might step, and could not remember which one to use
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I dont relate to some of your description such as "reach over"
and one or two others. But I understand the thrust of what you are doing. But in the final section of your description- I would step with the (side) bong and wu.
joy chaudhuri

[zerozero]

Originally posted by OdderMensch

In chum kui, there is a section where you reach over, pull to one side and kick. when your foot lands, it pulls you to the side on the line you just kicked. While you are being pulled, your gaurd forms a bong sau, wu sau structure.


Can you clarify what part of chum kiu you're referring to? This description is as clear as mud.

[wingchunalex]

from the kick: I drop my hands as the kick is comming down, then as my back foot slides up my bong sau and wu sau come up. then from the step its the same thing, as a step out with my front foot my hands drop and cross, then as my back foot slides up my bong and wu come up.

[anerlich]

I "drop" (can't think of a better word, but don't like the connotations) my arms and sink, start the bon/wu as I step with the first foot (in my kwoon there are three different ways of stepping practised). The bon/wu reaches its apex as the other foot comes up in "replacement".

[OdderMensch]

here is what i wrote last night, I hid it in another thread

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=254326#post254326

so i thought to do it the way wingchunalex descibes, but i should be doing more how anerlich & yuanfen do.

yuanfen
by "reach over" i meant to desribe going from a standing posture, arms at the side(like he begining of SLT) then the left arm comes across the body to a grabing lan sau type movement(it's proper name escapes me) you then stance turn (in my form to a 45) and kick.

I can see how, and i think the forms are different, but what do you think?

[yuanfen]

Oddermensch- It is a very important section of chum kiu- lots of details. The motion is less of a reaching motion. The chum kiu turn drives it all. The lan sau goes into place and you kick and then you put the foot down- left foot on the left side first, With the resulting forward motion the right bong and the left wu come out automatically. The bong and wu must be coordinated to reinforce each other as the forward motion occurs when you put your foot down. Lots of coordination and mobility built into that little gem of a section.

[Shadowboxer]

I practice the form the way Odder does. One of our sihings said this to me once. What might this mean to you? What do you think he was talking about? Is the elbow structure the most important detail in this section? Thoughts?

[OdderMensch]

yuanfen- thats a beautiful description of the whole system. its an open book that full of secrets. I'm really just getting a hold(i hope) on that type of steping.

i don't think the elbow is the most important detail, but its driveing the whole thing. the elbow thrusts up to bong sau as the body lunges forward to stabilize and support. this is done in a precise, relaxed manner. :D

i'll need to pull out the video from the last TJL, as I recall there were some good examples of that type of energy.

that of course and practice my own forms.

[rubthebuddha]

odder,

different families, but i like joy's perspective on the whole thing. i'd stick with him on this one.

when you have a question on how, to me it's best to question the application(s) of it. once you have the applications, think of how they would affect your hands, feet and structure overall as you performed the technique, and figure out what order and such makes the most sense in regard to that application. our forms are smarter than i think we'll ever give them credit for. chum kiu was designed as how to seek and work with a bridge. keep that in mind, and go through that sequence some more. :)

[OdderMensch]

different families, but i like joy's perspective on the whole thing. i'd stick with him on this one.

yeah, thats the way i do it.
did you read my post that night?



I'd teach them this one part of chum kui, where youv'e just pulled to one side, launch a wong gerk/sidekick then step down in the bong sau/wu sau structure.

now the tricky part comes where you move your hands into the other structure, this is done FWIROMHO* so that you have space in which to send the elbow back up, thus createing that next step.

the movement of the elbow to the settled posture could coinide with the slight rise of the forward knee creating space for the step.

ie drop elbow, raise knee, bong sau, step/bui ma, stop with bong sau, drop elbow...ect, till the uppercut (yup thats all that is, an uppercut ) this would result in two distinct steps. a slight, but definate picking up of the foot with the droping of the elbow, then an equally obvious dropping and pulling with the bong




However, after some sample steps I believe the form should more settle or drop into the position after the bong sau, useing the 20/80 weight posture, adducting the drop of the elbow from a rooted position. then bongsau, step/bui ma, settle,bong sau, step/bui ma. settle. in other words the bongsau should begin before the step, and end with the step.

hey this is the section of CK you see that guy do before the karateka flattens him(in that mcdojo vid). thats why you gotta practice!



oh and did anyone see that mcdojo clip, watch that guy do chum kiu, and get surprised when he got creamed?

say i notice you claim to be a rush hater? do you mean the band?

[rubthebuddha]

yup. can't stand 'em. i like a lot of canadian bands, tea party being my favu, but something about rush just annoys the funk out of me. at the time i put the title under my avatar, my brother had mentioned listening to rush and the police at work, and for the rest of the day, some **** keyboard from a really annoying (yet popular for some reason) rush song stayed in my head until the resident math professor in the building walked by whistling a much more appreciable tune to take it's place in the echo of my head.

so yeah, i hate rush. i'll probably catch hell for this, but it all sounds like wailing put to an action cartoon soundtrack. IMbiasedO, the transformers movie had better music.