Jon Funk's PM styles

[Tainan Mantis]

In the Nov/Dec 2002 issue of Kungfu Qigong(MA Xianda on the cover) page 59.
EMPTY HAND FORMS TRAINING 3rd paragraph.

Jon Funk mentions that he teaches 10 forms taken from diverse PM styles including Guang Ban and Chang Chuan style PM.
1.White Ape Steals the Peach
2-10?
Beng bu is in there, but he took out Fanche.
I'm guessing there is Mei Hua Lu, Luanjie...

-Where does Jon Funk get this Guang Ban and Chang Chuan PM?

-What are the last 9 forms?

[mantis_seeker]

Hi Tainan,

I practice 7* of the HK line. Although, I have never talked to Jon Funk my sifu has. Accroding to my sifu, Jon Funk lists Mui Faa Lok, Dai Ga Sik, and Sew Ga Sik as coming from Guang Ban. He also lists Chop Choy and Say Lo Bun Da as coming from Chang Chuan.

I don't believe Jon Funk added those forms though. Sifu told me Lou Guang Yu added forms from other styles of mantis. Maybe Jon Funk meant this, that LGY taught forms from diverse styles. This would explain why the HK mantis line has so many forms unheard of in the PRC line. The list my sifu has given me has more than 10 forms though.

Ofcourse this may be a myth that LGY added forms from other PM styles and just created some of the forms like sap say lo. In the list I have Fanche is in there as big and small fanche.

mantis_seeker

[mantis_seeker]

Hi,

I have to clarify that I am not from Jon Funk’s line. So I am not authorized to speak on his forms except from what my sifu has told me from speaking to sifu Funk. Maybe some of Jon Funk’s students could give us a clearer picture.

Sifu told me Jon Funk breaks Hong Kong mantis as follows:
seven stars – Bung Bo, Sub Bat Sau, Daw Guang, Tong Long Chut Dong, Tong Long Toe Tau, and Mui Fa Sau.

Mui Fa – Mui Fa Kune, and the essentials ( I guess 1 –3 since HK does not have 7 or 6 like mainland).

Guang Ban – Mui Fa Lok, Dai Ga Sik, and Sew Gai Sik.

Chang Chuan – Chop Choy and Say Lo Bun Da.

Fan Che – Dai Fanche and Sew Fanche.

Please keep in mind this was a conversation my sifu had with Jon Funk some years ago.

mantis_seeker

[ninjaboy]

are you just looking for his forms syllabus to find out what he includes in his curriculum? or are you just interested in the history of the sets themselves?

ninjaboy

[Icebreaka]

The second form we learn is Sub Baat Sou if that helps you any. Bag Yune Tou Tou is the first.

Actually here's the order of them Sifu Funk teaches http://www.mantiskungfu.com/Forms.htm

[mantis108]

I have some concerns:

1) The curriculum of "Mantis Kung Fu Federation" seems to be mostly forms that are available on tapes, which the website is selling. So does this mean that Mantis Kung Federation might acknowledge someone who has purchased the first tape, learn it at home, and then show up for testing as a yellow sash holder? Are the tapes mainly for visual and memory aid only?

2) While these forms are predominantly HK 7* forms, I wonder how they come together as a system, which represent Mantis Kung Fu Federation?

3) there are repeatedly mentioning of application, sticky hands, slap hands sparring, sparring, etc... I wonder how does these reflect one's mantis skill. Obviously a kickboxing slug fest is not considered as a reflection of Mantis skill?

4) Why is there only third routine of Dzai Yao? What happen to the first and second? what happen to Bung Bo and ling Bung Bo? I would just like to understand the rationale of including or excluding certain forms.

Sorry about the all these questions. I am having problem seeing those forms forming a system altough it is not uncommon for masters in the past to pick whatever favorite forms that they feel had help them to achieve their distinct attributes. So I am assuming that these forms as a whole will build certain attributes for the students. If so what are these attributes? Would someone who is currrently learning Mantis Kung Fu under that system shed some lights for me?

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

mantis seeker,
Thanks for taking the time to ask your Shrfu about these forms.

I am keeping in mind that this is from an old conversation.
But here are my comments...

I don't see how Mei Hua Kune goes under Mei Hua PM.
It seems that this was added to HK 7* by Luo Guangyu, probably his creation.

I can not find any verificationof Guang Ban PM.
Mei Hua Lu was created by Song Zide of Taiji Tang Lang.

Chang Chuan PM was a name adopted by Mei Hua stylist Gao Daosheng for his Taibei PM school, but his is not Chang Chuen PM.

Unless Cha Chuei and Si Lu Beng Da were originally Longfist forms.
I have heard that Cha Chuei is a very recent PM creation. Although I don't know who created it.
My Shrfu, who learned this from 7* Hao Gengsheng was under the impression that this form had a 500 year history and was originally from Hebei.

Si Lu Beng Da was taught in Taiwan by Wang Songting( Gao Daosheng's shrfu) and Sun Longjai.
Wang Songting may have met WHF at some date before or immediately after WW2, or so it has been said. Still looking for verification.
Maybe someone whose shrfu actually studied with WHF could discover if this is so, or if WHF ever visited Taiwan.

I have no record of a style called Fanche. Is this what you are implying?

ninjaboy,
I am interested in the history of all the PM sets as well as all the different PM Shrfu's PM curriculum.

Icebreaka,
Thanks for the link.

Mantis108,
My students who have gone to Jon Funk's school saw them practicing Beng Bu. So he must teach stuff that is not on the list.

Also this page links to another that includes a picture video of them performing Ling Beng Bu.
But actually I think that the listed forms contain enough to give a good understanding of 7* PM.

[Oso]

I sent you a pm

thanks,

Matt

[mantis108]

Thanks for the feed back.

<<<My students who have gone to Jon Funk's school saw them practicing Beng Bu. So he must teach stuff that is not on the list.>>>

I am sure he teaches more than what is listed. But as the list on the site goes, I have the impression that one could be a "graduate" (Sifu?) in PM with only those forms that are listed. I am only wondering why these forms are choosen to form a "system" but not others? What kind of attribute a graduate would have under this system? It would seem non of these forms really expound of the 8 Shorts. Without the 8 shorts is mantis still mantis? I am just curious about the rationale. That's all and I am by no means bashing or doubting the system.

"Also this page links to another that includes a picture video of them performing Ling Beng Bu."

Thanks, I have seem that page too.

"But actually I think that the listed forms contain enough to give a good understanding of 7* PM."

I hear you. But I have to wonder what exactly the term "Graduate" as defined on the site emcompass. Also a good understanding would mean to me as using primarily 7*PM, or whatever style for that matter , skills and techs to fight and to teach. A good and skilled figther-teacher not necessarily equals a Mantis stylist by default. There is a keen use of intellect involved that separates a Mantis fighter-teacher from a good figther-teacher (whatever style that may be). I just want to understand the rationale behind formulating such a system. I hope it is not just to build a system for building a system's sake. Otherwise, we would have tens or hundreds of subsystems within mantis systems. Not that there is anything wrong about having your own system but one must deliver the goods. Again I am not doubting and bashing anything or anyone. I merely voice my concerns.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[mantis_seeker]

Hi Tainan Mantis,

"I don't see how Mei Hua Kune goes under Mei Hua PM.
It seems that this was added to HK 7* by Luo Guangyu, probably his creation.

I can not find any verification of Guang Ban PM.
Mei Hua Lu was created by Song Zide of Taiji Tang Lang.

Chang Chuan PM was a name adopted by Mei Hua stylist Gao Daosheng for his Taibei PM school, but his is not Chang Chuen PM."

I can't really comment as I have never seen Guang Ban, Chang Chuen, or Mui Fa mantis. Mei Hua Lu is not the same as Mui Fa Lok as far as name goes, Plum blossom path - Plum blossom falling. So I am not sure we are refering to the same form.


"Unless Cha Chuei and Si Lu Beng Da were originally Longfist forms."

That was my impression that Cha Chuei and Si Lu Beng Da were originally long fist forms modified for mantis. I have no verification of this though. Just the feeling I get when performing these two sets as apposed to Sub Bat Sau or Daw Gong.

In any case, the language is not helping. I am more familiar with the cantonese names, while others are familiar with the mandarin names. And are we using pin yin? Maybe a posting guide can be setup. Like the ones for newsgroup ettiqute, with a standardized spelling?

mantis_seeker

[Tainan Mantis]

Mui Fa Lok and Mei Hua Lu are the same forms.
Although the Lu and Lok characters are different.

Mei Hua Lu is a type of deer.
The beginning resembles a deer jumping up down and to the side.
I know the HK version doesn't, but the moves in the beginning are all the same.

But I am not sure why the form is named Mei Hua Lu as the Mui Fa Lok name sounds a little more logical from the viewpoint of MA.
But then some of the old names of PM forms are somewhat illogical so it is hard to say.

[Shaolin Master]

Mei Hua Quan (LuoGuangYu) is an extension of Hei Hu Quan (WangRongSheng). No connection with MeihuaTL (exceptthe choice of name). We don't practice MHQ only HHQ.

Most of the Seven Star sets were instigated by Wang Rong Sheng and extended modified or added to by Luo Guang Yu.

The classifications used by Mr.Funk do not make too much sense but rather show that he is yet to be acquainted with the various mantis styles.

Regards

[ninjaboy]

mantis108

insofar as why any teacher would include or exclude material from a system, i think everyone would agree that there could be a myriad of reasons. i think it would be difficult to find any teacher from any generation that does absolutely every single thing identical to HIS teacher. and i think every good teacher would want his/her students to excel beyond wherever they happen to be on their own personal journey.

i think that an adherence to underlying principles is more important than which sets you teach or in what order.

that brings into light a whole other issue in mantis which is that nobody even agrees on what the principles are, let alone what makes an effective curriculum.

the inconsistency of what 'bung bu' looks like as played by various mantis clans around the globe is a good example of the beauty of mantis. tai mantis bung bu does not look much like 7star bung bu....does this make either less effective or either style more or less 'mantisish'?

other styles of mantis are a good example of this. how many forms does 6 harmonies mantis have? very few compared to 7star. does this make it inferior? certainly not.

for the record, jon funk has no 'graduate' students but has granted permission to a few students to teach under his guidance and supervision (myself being one of them). the list of 'qualifications' to achieve graduate status as listed on his website are for a quick reference for the novice student. as more becomes apparent to a student after years of training pass and one becomes aware of how much more is encompassed in the pursuit of this system, one starts to realize how little that particular forms list (as layed out on his website) actually means. it is a framework and a guideline, nothing more.

on a personal note, i have seen too many 'forms collectors' that have a flimsy, impractical approach to interpreting applications and have grown largely unimpressed with those who have claims of knowing 'this form' or 'that one'.

jon funk has not created a 'subsystem' or 'substyle', but has decided to teach sets that he feels develop a good basis for understanding these underlying principles so that the practitioner may take ownership of the material presented.

sincerely,
ninjaboy

[Tainan Mantis]

Ninjaboy,
Sounds like a logical response.

Shaolin Master,
It seems that only HK 7* has Mei Hua shou and Mei Hua Chuen.
Why do you think they come from Wang Rongsheng?
How do you connect the Black Tiger School of boxing to Wang Rongsheng?

The Heihu(black tiger) Chuen link is interesting.
A form almost exactly like Plum Flower Hands is called Black Tiger Exits the Cave.
Only a few less moves at the end of the Black Tiger form.

[mantis108]

First off, I would like to thank you for taking the time to respond.

I agreed with Tainan Mantis that your answer is logical. There are points that I feel needs to be address from what you were saying such as the "underlying principles", which basically was the bottom line that I was looking at. I don't seem to see that being addressed although we could just leave it at that for the time being. I am satisfied that the forms that are found in the PMKFF list does seem to articulate certain dynamics of WHF lineage, which I gathered from Young Mantis' post about his favorit forms.

<<<Young Mantis wrote:

In the WHF lineage of Northern Praying Mantis, there are three advanced level forms named after Mui Fah (Plum Flower): Mui Fah Lawk (Descending Plum Flower), Mui Fah Kuen (Plum Flower Fist), and Mui Fah Sao (Plum Flower Hand). I think the Mui Fah sets are very important because they collectively offer a wide range of the Praying Mantis style. Mui Fah Lawk is comprised of mostly long range fighting techniques, utilizes aggressive offensive movements, and is considered the more rigid of the three. Mui Fah Kuen uses sudden changes of angle and direction of attack, alternating high and low attacks, left and right combinations, and is the more flexible of the Mui Fah sets. Mui Fah Sao combines the hard and soft elements of the other two and uses mostly short but also some long range attacks and quick movements.

One of my all time favorite sets though is Bahk Yuen Tao Tow (White Ape Steals the Peach). Although it is an intermediate level form and I think the shortest in the WHF curriculum with 24 movements, it is comprised of mostly short range fighting tactics which I prefer. I think this form is great for teaching short range fighting using in particular the jim-nim and tiep-kao concepts to stick or stay close to an opponent. The Ling Bahk Yuen Tao Tow (White Ape Steals the Peach partner form) is by far my favorite Ling form because this one feels the most like I am actually fighting with an opponent. Most of the techniques are short range and so they are usually delivered faster, at closer proximity, and just generally tighter overall. However, the Ling Bahk Yuen Tchut Dhong (White Ape Exits the Cave partner form) is great too for the take-down techniques such as the yiew dzahm (waist chop) and dung pawk (leg trap).

As for training palm techniques, Fay Ngahn Jurng (Flying Geese Palm) and Lawk Ying Jurng (Descending Eagle Palm) collectively utilize most of the palm techniques of the style. There are great palm techniques contained in them that include striking, coiling, trapping, and joint locking.>>>

Regarding the "inconsistancy" found in forms such as the Beng Bu, that's another topic that merits its own thread. The quantity of forms found in a system would also make another great topic for discussions.

Finally, I am glad to hear that PMKFF is not aspired to be a substyle nor subsystem of PM. If indeed a blacksash in PMKFF signifies a good grasp of material presented and it's by no mean an end onto itself, then it would be a promising platform to further study the vast pool of material which PM has to offer. In that case, a blacksash from the PMKFF should be congratulated. I am very glad that you a have come forth with the explanation regarding the matter. Thank you and I appreciate that. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[carly]

would teach the entire system they learned, then let their students and each individual decide for themelves what is important within the system, instead of "editing" it for them.

[Oso]

"I wish that sifus...
would teach the entire system they learned, then let their students and each individual decide for themelves what is important within the system, instead of "editing" it for them."


umm...so, then the student who decided what they thought
was important within the system becomes a sifu and forgets
what they found important to only teach exactly what
they were taught?

Every system becomes 'edited' as it passes from generation
to generation. You could call this evolution I suppose. For
better or worse evolution happens. IMHO it is impossible to
pass on EXACTLY what you were taught. You didn't hear or
see it EXACTLY how your sifu meant for you to. Impossible to
do so. You can get close enough for your sifu to be happy with
your progress and any sifu who demands true mimicry from their
students is missing some of the self-expression within the art.

There are, of course, the things that have to be the same from
generation to generation otherwise it's not the same style. I'm
not advocating that the basic precepts of a system be changed
by any means.


ok, not sure if any of that made sense...still recovering from last
night.

matt

[yu shan]

In these days and times, cannot fathom "most students" learning entire systems. The time and money you have to invest to get to this level... just plain unique!

[Tainan Mantis]

Oso,
Good points!
Historical research indicates that most every master made substantial changes to what he passed on to his students.

[ninjaboy]

mantis108:

anytime my mantis brother, it's my pleasure...

sincerely,
ninjaboy