Regarding the CLF history debate

[Serpent]

You know, it’s funny how this debate progresses. The further the points of people like Frank McCarthy, k-no, bean curd, Setansi, Regulator et al are uprooted or shown to be untrue or misinformed, the less those people try to reinforce their beliefs and the more they attack the people with different beliefs.

One of the main attacks is ranting about the anonymity of certain members of the discussion, as if that in some way discounts the beliefs of those people and, therefore, backs up the beliefs of the loudmouths. The truth is that if everyone stuck to the debate and stopped worrying about who was who and stopped with the personal attacks and insults, this whole thing would be a lot more constructive.

One thing that I think everybody needs to remember. Nobody posting here, not one of us, amounts to jack sh!t in the whole scheme of things. I’ve said many times that I have no authority to speak on behalf of any particular group. Indeed, I don’t even represent a particular group. I’m just interested in getting to the truth. I have my personal beliefs based on what I have learned and what I consider to be reasonable and what I have seen some kind of evidence for. I enter into this debate from that perspective. Who I am is irrelevant. I’m no one important.

And before you all jump on that, the same applies to every one of you. None of us have any authority to speak on behalf of any group or represent any line. None of us matter one iota. Even Dave Lacey, who rants from his website and then speaks here through his minions, is not any kind of official spokesman for Buk Sing, no matter that he seems to think he is.

The truth is that the people that really matter are probably not even aware of this sh!tbox little internet argument and all of us insignificants here. Now I know that this very post is in some ways insulting to certain members. So be it. Let it stop here. How about people stop with the personal attacks, stop avoiding the argument with pointless accusations and simply discuss the facts.

I’m sure this will fall on deaf ears (eyes?), but there you go.

[extrajoseph]

Even though I am risking identified as being the same person as yourself (heavens forbid!), I must say I agree with you 100%.

We should stick with the facts and write with good manners, being nasty and personal is not going to get us anywhere. On this forum we are all equal and we are all individuals expressing our different points of view unless stated otherwise.

At least for me, your words have not fallen on deaf eyes (is this an ozmoron?).

JosephX ;) :D

[iron_silk]

Why must Serpent be X-jo? when he can be much more...so much more...

I think he's Frank! Or maybe X-jo and Frank...no...no...no you are regulator and Jamesbond aren't you Serpent?

That's why regulator was frankly so extra annoying!

You self-hating Magnificant Basta*d!

(Just trying to keep things light!)

[Serpent]

In fact Iron-Silk, you are the only other person here. I am everyone else!

[iron_silk]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

I don't know or understand anything anymore? Am I truly alone in the universe?

What is the truth? Wait a minute I know now. In "real" life I am a bald Keanu Reeves.

I understand now. I am the chosen one. Prophecy foretold to bring balance to the CLF order.

I know what I must do.

Thank you Serpent or should I call you Morpheus?

:D

[Serpent]

Call me anything, names are irrelevant.

Here, take this nice red pill!

[Fu-Pow]

In fact Iron-Silk, you are the only other person here. I am everyone else!

If that was true you'd be one messed up dude!!!!

Excellent points thought Serpent. You expressed what I was trying to get at in some earlier posts.

WE ARE ALL EQUALS HERE!!!!

You are only to be judged by your ability to present a good argument and your behavior toward other members. It doesn't matter a god**** bit what you are in the "real" world.

That's the beauty of the internet. It's totally democratic. Because it is anonymous!!!. Its the same thing with voting in this country... you can vote for whoever you want to vote for without anyone knowing who you voted for.

I think it scares some people because they lack the power to control what goes on here. They actually have to use their intellect and present a good argument.

In my opinion Dave Lacey has never presented a very good argument on his website, it's logically inconsistent, very opinionated and he has resorted to a lot of posturing. People see through that pretty quickly and so their opinion is not swayed.

If he cited some sources, dropped the posturing and gave some specifics people might be more willing to listen to his viewpoint.

[HuangKaiVun]

Ordinarily I'd disagree with you, Serpent.

However, I agree with you on this issue 100%.

Pointless lineage posturings are a waste of everybody's time.

[Serpent]

Just to clarify, the debate to discover the truth of our histories is important and valid. The truth should be known and falsehoods exposed. All this is possible without any need for personal attacks or challenges. That's my point.

The truth of the lineage is important. The posturing isn't.

[HuangKaiVun]

Agreed - to a point.

The thing is, what's a "falsehood?"

If it WORKS in combat, there's nothing false about it whatsoever.

That's why I don't place much stock in lineage - and I myself am a lineage holder.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Agreed - to a point.

The thing is, what's a "falsehood?"

If it WORKS in combat, there's nothing false about it whatsoever.

That's why I don't place much stock in lineage - and I myself am a lineage holder.

Your stories change as often as your socks, Huang. :rolleyes: And besides, you're missing the point.

If it works it works, sure. But that has no bearing on the history. We have never argued that all CLF works. All branches teach great martial arts. The debate regarding the history is completely seperate and important.

We don't need you getting involved, HKV, just so that you can find another excuse to tell everyone how great you are.

[extrajoseph]

I also agree with you up to a point because there are two things being discussed here: what is falsehood and what is falsehood in fighting.

I am a lineage holder and I don't place much importance in lineage either, but I would like to know what is true and what is false in my lineage so I can know my place in this world and find peace.

To me, it is more important to know what is true and what is false than fighting skills because often it is a falsehood that starts a fight, like someone calling you a d*ckhead when you are clearly not.

You have the choice either to explain or to kick a$$. You can always try the former first then the latter, in this case, fighting skill is useful in reinforcing what is true to you. The pen is mightier than the sword when you have the sword as well.

But what you are really saying is that there is no such thing as a fair fight (what works is not false), I guess that is true in the real world - there is no falsehood in fighting, you either kill or be killed.

JosephX

[HuangKaiVun]

That last statement of yours sums up this discussion perfectly, extrajoseph.

In old China, debates of lineage were settled by physical conflict. If it didn't work in fighting, it was a falsehood.

As far as finding peace goes, that's only something that can come from within. No external teacher can give - or take that away - from a person. Being in a lineage doesn't guarantee success or failure.

"Fair fight?" What does that have to do with lineage? When a person gets attacked (sometimes by multiple opponents), there's nothing fair about that. You use whatever you can to get yourself out of that situation. The best lineage in history won't throw a punch for anybody in a real fight.


Serpent, what's your problem?

I'm just stating that I'm a lineage holder, and I made no claims as to how great I am. I don't even disagree with you.

Besides, a real kung fu man knows that the true test of skill is in physical combat. Don't go around saying how great I am until you try me first.

[Serpent]

You're not great, Huang. You just think you are.

I'm not going to get into an argument with you here, you're not worth it. Suffice to say that I am simply making one very basic point:

No one is saying that one person's kung fu is any better than another's. No one is suggesting that one line is more "complete" or "combat effective". However, that does not detract from the fact that the truth of our history is important.

Just because a person can fight well and has good kung fu does not take away from the importance of history. A person may or may not be a lineage holder, it makes no difference, their skills will speak for themselves. However, none of this has any bearing on what is true about history and on those that would try to change history.

Surely the point is not that hard to grasp.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
In old China, debates of lineage were settled by physical conflict. If it didn't work in fighting, it was a falsehood.


It only happens in martial arts novels and you have read too many of them. This "heroic" vision of everything gets settled by fighting is something of your own dreaming, most people in old China have more sense.

May be Serpent is right after all: "We don't need you getting involved, HKV, just so that you can find another excuse to tell everyone how great you are." You are trying to tell everyone how great you are at fighting because you seem to think everything can be settled by violence and that is the way to do it!

Wake up! It is the 21st century and if we are to fight, we fight with guns and planes and nuclear weapons and not just with fists and sticks! So think and talk first before you get stuck into it.

In the past and hopefully at the present, sensible people settle the question of lineage by research. As for finding peace within myself, it is none of your business!

On the other hand, if you are just trolling along, singing a song, do have a nice day, you will only get fed once a while......

"...Try me first!", LOL (thanks diego) hahahahahahahah....

:D

[Serpent]

You'll get used to Huang Kai Vun, if you haven't seen him around already.

Do you remember that show "Fresh Prince Of Bel-Air" with Wil Smith? Remember in that show that Will Smith's character had that d0rky little cousin called Carlton, convinced he was the best at everything? HKV reminds me of Carlton every time he posts. Only worse. At least Carlton knew he was a joke. ;)

[extrajoseph]

We must be getting close to the end of our debate on CLF history, we are now getting HVK on board and soon it will be our resident king troll Ego_Extrodinaire (unless he is on holiday already). Thank heavens, Christmas comes in the neck of time....

[Fu-Pow]

neck of time....

nick of time...lol....I don't think time has a neck!!!

[Serpent]

Well... time marches on, so it must have legs. If it has legs it's only fair to assume that it has the rest of the body too, which would include a neck. Unless it worked part-time as a bouncer in inner-city clubs. Those guys don't often have necks; kinda like a square head atop broad, wide shoulders that look like they've been over-inflated at the service station air hose.....

...but I digress!

:)

[extrajoseph]

Nick has a neck! So that is the same thing isn't it? English is so confusing like CLF history and no matter how good you are at English, you can't throw a punch with it, so what good is that to you? Time you guys learn Cantonese....

Jouk ni di saint dain tung sun nian fi lok!

Kung Hei Fatt Choi!

:D

[JAZA]

Happy Holidays, Merry XMas, Happy New Year and Peace. :)

[HuangKaiVun]

extrajoseph, you clearly have never studied with a Chinese master who actually trains kung fu for combat.

That's the way things are STILL done today. But ignorant trolls like you and Serpent wouldn't know.

You and Serpent can try me anytime if you think I'm fake. If you want to talk trash, feel free to try my hands in person.

[extrajoseph]

Your post is not worth replying, especially on Christmas Day, a day of peace and good will. So I will let you think that I have never studied with a Chinese master who actually trains kung fu for combat and violence is still the best way to resolve conflicts. I don't think you are a fake and I am sure you can fight and you are very good at it as well, so everything is fine.

Merry Christmas and have a nice day!

:D

[HuangKaiVun]

Just don't forget that there are 364 other days in which you can come try my hands - politely or not.

That's the Chinese way, though obviously you don't have A CLUE about that.

[CLFNole]

This forum gets funnier by the second.

[yutyeesam]

Hey CLFNole,
I wanted to ask you something about the LKH forms. Do all the ging lai's start from the hands by the head/ears? Reason I ask is that I've seen in other lineages of CLF with the ging lai starting from the right side of the ribs area.

Any ideas at all why some are different? I know it's pretty insignificant, but I'm just curious.

thanks! hope you had a great holiday!
123

[CLFNole]

123:

All of our forms do gin lai from about ear level. Not sure about the other way but I have seen it done both ways from other clf players.

Hope you had a happy holiday yourself.

Peace.