CLF in the history of Guangdong MA

[extrajoseph]

There is a book published in Chinese in 1989 by The Guangdong Peoples Publications entitled "Guangdong Wushu Shi" or "The History of Guangdong Martial Arts". ISBN 7-218-00434-2.

It is a result of 10 years of research by the mainland Chinese MA scholars, historians and practitioners. In the preface of the book, the editor said the research team (5 permanent members appointed by the government plus 100s of helpers) went to 12 cities, 66 counties and had meetings with more than 300 older masters in over 136 meetings. They looked through records stored in 4 major libraries, 7 Museum archives and read through 500 and more publications and collected materials written in over 3,500,000 words. Prior to the publication, the manuscript was checked over by more than 20 experts in the field of MA education and history. The book and its authors won a government award for research and scholarly work.

CLF history included King Mui and Futsan was mentioned in p 67 to 72 and p179 to 181. Chan Heung was mentioned in p121, p127 and 128. Jeong Yim was mentioned in p121, p131 and 132.

The result of their research was very clear: Chan Heung founded CLF and Jeong Yim was one of his disciples who later took over the running of the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon when Chan Dein-Yuk went blind. The book acknowledged Jeong Yim was the instigator of Futsan Hung Sing CLF just as Tarm Sarm was the instigator of Buck Sing CLF but Jeong Yim was not the original founder of CLF. That honour belonged to Chan Heung and the birthplace of CLF was Sun Hui and not Futsan.

This book is a result of years of painstaking scholarly work by academics and MA experts and we should accept their findings as close to the real CLF history as humanly possible. It was written by the authority for teaching and for research purpose so we should accept its findings with good faith.

You may choose to believe what your sifu tells you but one should also be open minded to scholarly opinions. History is not about what you believe in but it does get influenced by your belief system. You need not sacrifice your loyalty for the truth if you respect your sifu's teaching yet holds your own opinion on history and philosophy of the art you are studying.

So far we have only looked at history from a lineage point of view and most of the information came from Hong Kong and Singapore/Malaysia, it is time we look at what the mainland Chinese have to say about our past. The truth is out there and it helps if you can read Chinese. May be one day some one may translate this book for the western readers.

[Rolling_Hand]

Excellent post.

I agree with you a 100%.

[Serpent]

Not that is a credible source of evidence.

Well done, Joseph.

[Diamond Talons]

EJ would you do me a kindness & send me E-mail & I have a question to ask not about CLF but about what might be in this book you have & it's not about politics & if you don't want to it's okay just say so, okay?

[Serpent]

Just towards the bottom right of your keyboard there, Diamond Talons. Just above the Alt button, next to the / button...

That's the one! See if you can get a bit more friendly with that key. ;)

[extrajoseph]

I have a handful talking about CLF history already without getting involved with other issues, so my apology in advance for not contacting privately.

With the ISBN number you may be able to track down a copy from your Chinese book agent like I did. He sold the last copy as a second hand book to me recently and said this book went out with a very small volume sale, the bulk of it were sold out to educational and government institutions before it hit the market.

XJo

[Diamond Talons]

Thank you EJ & I will contact a store owner & try to find a book dealer who can find a copy of this book as it might be good source of information & not politics or not too political record of stuff. S I don't see a key that says anything friendly & I say thanks for trying to help me & I don't do this thing too good. Sorry.

[extrajoseph]

It is a great reference book to have if you can read Chinese. It gave a brief history and characteristics of all the major southern styles, from Hung, Lau, Choy, Lee, Mok to CLF, Wing Chun, Hop Gar (Bak Hok and Lama), Bak Mei, Fut Gar and the various Hark Gar styles, etc, etc. No BS, no politics, just lots of names, dates, events, major players and invaluable information. It also debunked a lot of myth created by MA storybooks, characters like Choy Guo-Yi, Gee Sim, Hung Hee-Gung and Fong Sai-Yuk are not included and no mention whatsoever of Ching Cho but it has a good history on Futsan Hung Sing and Jeong Yim. Good luck in getting a copy for yourself. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

[Diamond Talons]

I say thanks again EJ & I have called a guy who buys & sells rare books & reading Chinese no problems for me except I don't read too well no matter what language so I get a copy of the book & give it to some young guys. They are kind to me & will tell me what it says about stuff I would like to read & maybe I will ask one of them to translate it to English so other people can read it too if this book is good as you say it should be possible for others to read if they want. I don't say anything about people you say are not in book as that starts politics & guys that been around for a while know that stories are told to teach a lesson & not to be claimed as real history & even if stories are true it doesn't put skill into my hands & if they are false it doesn't take skill out of my hands. Individual & not people long dead I think.

[Fu-Pow]

Kick ass XJoseph. Now if I could only read Chinese...hmmmm......

[Serpent]

Diamond Talons, I was just pulling your leg about you not using many full stpos. No offence or confusion intended. ;)

Joseph, where would you suggest would be a good place to try to find a copy of this book?

[premier]

Not many of us speak chinese, but I think it would be a good idea to scan the relevant pages, just so everyone can see this book actually exists.

[extrajoseph]

After I scan the pages, where and how I can post them?

I ask my book agent and he said it would be hard to get hold of another copy. May be asking someplace like EBay? I could always auction my copy and make big bucks!:D

[Serpent]

If you ever discover another copy, please let us know.

If you scan images and then save the image as a .jpg file, you can then attach it to a post. When you are replying to a post, click on the Browse button just above the Submit button and attach the file like with an e-mail.

Hope that's clear! ;)

Cheers

[Ao Qin]

Hello,

I was just wondering if anyone could tell me if they've ever heard of "Short Hand" Choy Lee Fut?

La - Ao Qin

[diego]

Hello ExtraJoseph, i imagine i wont know how to read chinese for another decade orso as i havent even started to learn;) but i would be highly interested if you would share some of the tidbits on hopgar and his sisters bakhok etc. Is thier many pages on hopgar?, ifso would you be able to shorthand the key-notes:) Please!?.

Particularily interested in what it has to say how it came to china from tibet, and how it relates to hunggar in anyway...one way im curious is im told hungga gave hop tiger claws and hop gave hung longfists!?.
If you could make a new thread about the hopgar tidbits that would be great as im sure other tibetan lions roar practitioners would like to discuss any controversial points in your book.

Also what does the book say about triads and thier influence on kungfu?.
Thanks for reading :cool: And Extra thanks if you can find the time to post on my request "im sure most wont bug you what the book says about thier styles, but styles like hopgar thier is not that much unbiased info out thier!...So agian any help would be much appreciatted!.
peace

[diego]

Also is thier any info on the guy in my avatar HopGar GM Harry Wu/Ng-Yim-Ming?.
:cool:

[dutch]

Hi extrajoseph,

If you ever do decide to make scans or copies of all of the CLF sections of the book, I would be interested in paying for a copy for your troubles. I do read Chinese, but I would like to have a copy of the pages for my Sifu also.

Thanks in advance,

[extrajoseph]

It has some concise but detail information on Hop Gar and how it was evolved into Bak Hok and Lama and by whom. The histroy on Hung Gar is also interesting and I am sure it will upset some people as well (e.g. Hung Hee-Goon was a fictional character). Precisely because of that I am going to stay away from it all.

As for triads, it has some intersting information on kung fu and revolutionary activities in Guangdong province from early Ming to the founding of new China (e.g, the Tai Ping Rebellion, Dr. Sun and the Hng Mun etc). They all made fascinating reading for me.

History and lineage are very sensitive issues and I will be mad to be involved in areas I am not familiar with. It took me almost 30 years to sort out what is what in CLF and I am not about to have my face slapped and my head bashed again by "seeking the truth" in another style. I know it is only doing some translations from a reference book but it is too "edgy" for me to handle right now.

Thank you but no thank you and sorry about that.

JosephX

[extrajoseph]

Your Sifu has many friends and contacts in the martial arts world in Hong Kong and China, ask him and he may be able to get hold of a copy for you.

JosephX

[dutch]

Your right, I should try to see if he could get ahold of it first. Good thinking.

Thanks for the reply!

Hey Joseph, what does "ISBN" stand for?

[extrajoseph]

No idea Dutch, I am still trying to work out what LOL stands for.:o
Just guessing, International Serial Book Numbers?
Now I have to find myself a scanner.....

[dutch]

:-) hahaha!

It took me a really long time to figure out LOL (laugh out loud) also.

Thanks for the reply

[Fu-Pow]

Hello,

I was just wondering if anyone could tell me if they've ever heard of "Short Hand" Choy Lee Fut?

La - Ao Qin



As far as I know there is no such thing. Contrary to popular belief CLF has both long range and short range techniques. However, it is more famous for the longer range ones.

[sing fu]

Extrajoseph,

I wonder if I could ask if 'Guangdong Peoples Publications' = �L“Œ�l–¯�o”Å (i.e. peoples = person + citizen)? Also, is there an editors name for this work? Enquiring minds want to know :)

[extrajoseph]

Sing Fu,

The Pinyin name for the publisher is Guangdong Renmin Chubanshi or Guangdong Peoples Publishing House. Yes renmin together means people, as you said, person + citizen.

The editor's name is Zeng Zhao-Sheng. He led the delegation from Guangdong to attend the First All China Wushu Working Committee Meeting in 1982 in Beijing, where the government wanted to revitalize wushu and to research and to preserve the history and the knowledge of Guangdong martial arts. They wanted to prevent the traditions from disappearing all together after the Cultural Revolution.

An enquiring mind is a healthy thing, that is how I got involved in the first place.

JosephX

[sing fu]

Thanks for a very helpful reply Extrajoseph - and Happy Holidays! :)

[diego]

Originally posted by extrajoseph
It has some concise but detail information on Hop Gar and how it was evolved into Bak Hok and Lama and by whom. The histroy on Hung Gar is also interesting and I am sure it will upset some people as well (e.g. Hung Hee-Goon was a fictional character). Precisely because of that I am going to stay away from it all.

As for triads, it has some intersting information on kung fu and revolutionary activities in Guangdong province from early Ming to the founding of new China (e.g, the Tai Ping Rebellion, Dr. Sun and the Hng Mun etc). They all made fascinating reading for me.

History and lineage are very sensitive issues and I will be mad to be involved in areas I am not familiar with. It took me almost 30 years to sort out what is what in CLF and I am not about to have my face slapped and my head bashed again by "seeking the truth" in another style. I know it is only doing some translations from a reference book but it is too "edgy" for me to handle right now.

Thank you but no thank you and sorry about that.

JosephX

Hello ExtraJoseph i can respect the position you wish to take nomatter how it leaves me in the dark!.:)
Would it be possibble for you to email me the info for my own private consumption "with a promise to not bring up any (tidbits) in this forum!?." i am a beginner in tibetan lions roar, and am highly turned off at those promoting its lineages to the masses, so would highly appreciatte what unbiased mainland scholars have to say about the style, and not the conflicting lineages of schoolhouse masters;) .
Please email me through this forum as im sure ive found all the legends and conjecture i will find open to public within TLR, i think its time i get down to some of the facts.

if you say no, im in the cold as i dont know how i could get that book let alone read it if i paid you for scans.
:cool:

[extrajoseph]

I will try to translate the bit on Hop Gar and send them to you privately when all this CLF history contraversy has down down a bit. That is the best I could do and it would keep me occupied during the festival season! Imagine me Hop-ping along and go Gar Gar on New Years eve!

A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone here on the forum.

JosephX :)

[diego]

Thanks ExtraJoseph. I think they turned off the email feature, or i'm missing something:confused: You can email me at todd4@angelfire.com
& A Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to you to
Thanks:)

[extrajoseph]

Since I have to pay for the scans, I have only attached the title page (Part I scan) and a double page spread (p 68-69) part on the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon plus part on the Choy Lee Fut Gwoon (Part II scan).

[extrajoseph]

Since I have to pay for the scans, I have only attached the title page (Part I scan) and a double page spread (p 68-69) part on the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon plus part on the Choy Lee Fut Gwoon (Part II scan).

JosephX

[dutch]

Hi Joseph,

I'm sure everyone here expresses there appreciation for your efforts in getting these pages scanned for us.

Thank you,

[nospam]

...yes....very much appreciative.

nospam.
:cool:

[extrajoseph]

...oh.....there is also an entry on Tarm Sarm and Fong Yuk-Shu who were great masters of their time in Guangzhou (Canton).