Elbows in???

[Miles Teg]

What is the point in training with the elbows right in the center?

I thought the elbows are supposed to sink downwards and feel heavy. If your elbow is right in the center then it is angling diagonally inwards and not straight down. To hold your elbow at this angle means that you need to be using muscle to keep it there sideways. When in this state how can you focus completely on the sinking downward feeling the elbows are supposed to have?

[Atleastimnotyou]

Your elbows should be next to you centerline... not right on top of your centerline. that is too far.

[TjD]

indeed, bring your elbow too far in and your structure collapses. if the elbow touches the chest (as is often the case when this happens), its an easy connection to your center of gravity and you can be pushed around extremely easily.

when the elbow is too far in, instead of using the structure of tan sau to deal with incoming force, you have to resort to using the rear-shoulder to keep your tan sau in front of you; this tires very quickly, the tan sau collapses and its all over

[Mckind13]

The elbows should fall on mid mid-clavicle line or the nipple line (same thing).

Elbows collapsed and touching the chest does not equate to broken structure. It just means your arms have collapsed.

While undesirable, this does not create a detrimental situation. Particularly at close range.

Elbows to close to or on the center line does necessitate more of an emergency.

David

[TjD]

i was talking more of a lazy tan sau with the elbow touching the center of the chest. not just an elbow touching the chest - that does happen and isnt nessecarily a bad thing

[Mckind13]

My Bad

Cyclops...I mean David

[Miles Teg]

But even with the elbow a fist distance away from sola plexius in the center it doesnt seem right.

I guess what Im saying is your when the tan is in the middle like that it is going sideways in wards. From the point where elbow just hangs down naturally it would be better if the elbow went to the other side away from your body because at least then you would be using less force to keep it there. Of course thats not what I do or what I think should be done but at least it would be better than the elbows going inward. My elbows hang strainght down.


Like, I know people say that with the tan in the center its closer to the oponent, but is it worth destroying relaxation, structure and power for that one point.

[Atleastimnotyou]

if your elbow just hangs down naturaly then you are open. if you place your tan infront of your solarplex(on your centerline) then you will be over doing it. it should be next to the centerline and about a fist distance away from your chest during training. if you find yourself tense there, then relax. You need to be in position first... then worry about relaxing

[Miles Teg]

I dont think I am open, my elbow is not hanging down not inwards at all but my fore arm aand hand point diagonally in to the center.
Can you picture that? If your elbow is right in the center then your fore arm is on the center line and going straight out, not diagonal.

So you said your elbow is beside the center so your tan goes slightly diagonal instead of straight, right?

[TjD]

how does a tan with its elbow by your side prevent yourself from getting hit?

[yylee]

Hi Miles

I believe our definition of "elbow in" is that the elbow and forearm point towards the centerline, the elbow can be on the side or close to the centre. As long as the above is fulfilled and the wrist is right in front of your body center line then it would be okay, agreed?

We train to bring the elbow closer to the center line so as to cover more of our space - the opponent could not sneak in from underneath the Tan or Fook so easily.

positioning vs relaxation... hmmm.... I am more on the relaxation side, for it allows me to better align my structure, more power that way. Well, that's just me :p

[Miles Teg]

yylee
Right.

BTW how much does your elbow go in?
I guess I understand that you cover more of the center if your elbow is in the middle, but you make yourself open to the side also I only need my wrist/forearm to deflect/control an incoming attack not my elbow.

TjD
Cause my forearm points towards the center line, as yylee said my hand/wrist would be in the center line.

How would having your elbows in the center prevent you from getting hit?

[yenhoi]

BTW how much does your elbow go in?

Other people have said it, but, the elbow is right next to your centerline, and one fist away from your chest.

but you make yourself open to the side also I only need my wrist/forearm to deflect/control an incoming attack not my elbow.


Actually your not really 'open' on the side. Firstly because you are facing your opponent, with your elbows in, protecting your centerline, by being there, instead of by your opponents fist. If someone wants to go around your centerline for some odd reason, then hit them. Its also important to keep your elbows in so that you can attack with your hands correctly.

How would having your elbows in the center prevent you from getting hit?

By being there, and powering your arms. As long as you control the center and your moving forward, then your not getting hit.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
BTW how much does your elbow go in?
I guess I understand that you cover more of the center if your elbow is in the middle, but you make yourself open to the side also I only need my wrist/forearm to deflect/control an incoming attack not my elbow.


Ah, my English again. Covering space mean you feel comfortable bringing your elbow into that quadrant, not meaning that you have to bring the elbow in that spot regardless of what the oppoent does. Bring it closer if you have to (as for emergency purpose, someone sneaks in), as long as you feel comfortable there. As for making yourself open, you can do Kwan or Bong, right? (can-you-do-Bong? is a loaded question in our line, you know what I mean, hehe)

As for how much does my elbow go in (i am now typing with my right and doing a tan with my left). Well...ah.la .... , my goal in the first Tan Sau of SNT is to focus all my body energy forward towards the Tan. Bottomline is that I need to feel comfortable. Try not to think too much of how in and how out, your mind has better things to focus on. Well, that's just me of course :)

[Mckind13]

ylee wrote
I believe our definition of "elbow in" is that the elbow and forearm point towards the centerline, the elbow can be on the side or close to the center. As long as the above is fulfilled and the wrist is right in front of your body centerline then it would be okay, agreed?

Me!
If you point to the center, rather then down the mid-clavicle line you will still get hit!

The forearm needs to come out from the body at least 90 degrees (viewed from top, looks like a T) to be effective.

Try this with Tan or Fuk. Elbow/ Wrist lined up along mid-clavicle line. Partner tries to punch center with a same side punch, the punch will not reach your center.

Point wrist at center (no longer 90 degrees from body). It becomes much easier to get hit.

In my view Tan / Fuk family needs to be on mid clavicle line

Punch/ Wu etc covers the center.

[Miles Teg]

Well
I used to train in a school that had the elbow in the middle with the forearm making a T shape in the manner you descibed and I now where I train where the elbows are pretty much hanging down to the side (of course forward a little away from the body).

And now I just believe there are so many holes in the elbow in the center idea. Sure if your practicing a drill where someone punches down the center and your tan is right in front of their punching arm you have a good chance of deflecting. But realistically people wont punch down their center line to your center line. They will punch from their side to your center.

But how is having my tan out, in the manner I described, being open?

When I trained with elbows in I discovered it was so easy for people to control me. Your elbows are in a very awkward position, they cant move back easily and they cant generate much power.

If you have your tan under my fok and punch I can either punch diagonally over your punch, redirecting your punch while striking you at the same time, or guide your punching hand towards me and down using my elbow(jam sau) ie my whole arm moves.

If your fok is on my tan, well my tan wont be right on the center so you will also have to have your fok on the side slightly so your elbow wont be able to go in. Now I imagine you would have trouble controlling my tan if you are not familar with being in this position.

[yylee]

MckinDavid

all true you said (forgot how to quote). In fact I used to do the 90 degree T shape Tan/Fuk, got rid of it a few years ago. The thing is, we don't post statically in a T and intercept the hit. Tan has forward energy, you know, the sticky forward kind. If the punch slides in, the Tan goes forward more to intercept or jam (that wedge thing again?). Tan and the whole body unit has an implicit triangle/pyramid shape pointing forward, forcing the incoming punch to the side.

>>In my view Tan / Fuk family needs to be on mid clavicle line

>>Punch/ Wu etc covers the center.

Positioning is a good thing, but I try to work harder on the alignment, or the energy feeling, hard to discribe :( One thing I do know is that even a tiny thought on bringing this in or that more up would take away some mind focus. Remember someone always says return to nature? When a 2 year old baby sets his/her mind to grab a toy with his hand, I doubt he/she thinks about elbow in or out. Yet if you are parent you know a baby's arm is very strong when he/she does that, and to me this is a kind of nature.

Oh well, not sure what time zone you're in, but bed time for me. Nice talking to you all :) :)

[Miles Teg]

yylee
Exactly!!! You get that feeling only when your body is relaxed and your elbows are sunk.

When practicing the form I get a very nice gliding feeling while doing it, the more I relax the better it is.

I never got that feeling while training with the elbows in method. Your arms are just not focussing in the right direction and are not as relaxed as they good be. Yes after a few years of elbows in, it was more comfortable to have them there. But still, you are forcing something in a direction that is not natural as yylee said.

[kj]

Miles,

FWIW. I share your stated concerns about placing tan directly on the centerline, and the importance and effect of having the elbows sunken.

ALIANY and McKind's descriptions are consistent with my practice. In the way I train, the tan is not on the centerline, but parallel to it, and roughly perpendicular to the face of the rib cage. The distance from centerline will naturally vary by individual, mainly due to body width and flexibility. There may be some slight adjustment from parallel or width distance when working with partners who differ in extremes. Nor would I advocate pressing outward (e.g., a tan sau) in an effort to maintain my preferred position. Directions of force and intent supercede absolute position when the two conflict, IMHO.

In my experience, having the arms at the sides is something highly advanced practitioners can get away with more than mere mortals (especially when they are working with less advanced practitioners). Advantages lie in mai jahng (elbow down) and proper intent, as well as footwork when necessary. Is this common in your experience or observation?

Of course, advanced practitioners can get away with all kinds of things against those of lesser skill. Sometimes, even a 'my wrong is superior to your right' sort of situation. ;) Also people following different principles (e.g., taiji) can apply their own strategies to good effect, especially if highly skilled. However, and again in my experience, for partners or opponents of more comparable skill levels, having the elbows down, and in toward and parallel to the centerline to a reasonable degree can matter a great deal.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[tparkerkfo]

Just to add a little bit, which is covered else where I am sure.

I don't think there is an exact position for the elbow any more than there is an exact color for red. There are degrees of correct position. As noted earlier, if the elbow is placed ON the centerline, there is much too much effort and muscle used to keep it in place. Not ver good. As you bulk up, the ability to get it close to the center degrades so you have to be slightly further away. I beleive Chung Bo(one of Sum Nung's teachers) had a problem and had to modify his wing chun because of his large arms and chest.

From what I have seen, there is an acceptable range we can put the elbow at. As we deviate though, our structure will suffer. I beleive that "correct" position is near the center line, but not on top of it.

Just some thoughts
Tom
________
Jainism dicussion (http://www.religionboard.org/jainism/)

[YungChun]

Although I beleive there are indeed shades to deal with here I teach students that the Tan for example should be in the same position as in the SLT.

As far as elbow location: Do a double Tan Sao with both arms, elbows should be 1 and 1/2 fist away from body. Now move the two Tans together until they are in good contact. Now take one away. Here is a close estimate to perfect position for that hand IMO. Now roll the hand over to fook without moving the elbow and viola a close to perfect Fook. Deviate much from this and leaks can happen fast.

[jonp]

maybe do the harder thing in training - elbows in

so that in the intensity of actual combat things are easier - even if you dont get the exact position

i know that when i train my SNT i get my elbows as far in as i can but often when i chi sau they aint as far in as i would like.

as for the when the tan being a T shape leads to getting hit from the outside - the forward pressure from the tan should release your hand to your target when your opponent strikes before he touches you - anybody else agree?

peace

[YungChun]

Originally posted by jonp
as for the when the tan being a T shape leads to getting hit from the outside - the forward pressure from the tan should release your hand to your target when your opponent strikes before he touches you - anybody else agree?
peace

Not sure what you mean by T shape but...

If you mean that before your partner completes his Fook > Punch 'through' your Tan you should 'release the energy' then yes, most of the time.

The reason for this often is that in the attempt to convert his Fook into a punch that will land - he is cheating and has lost his position. If the Centerline is empty then your Tan should automatically take and fill that line - with what though? Tan can convert to more than one thing but in this case a Deem (palm) is probably right. So yes if he tried to hit you, Fook > Punch and he doesn't have the line then your hand must 'fill' or you'll get blasted even if he goes 'around' your Tan. By fill we mean, 'freed hand shoots forward,' and boom!

Oh and don't forget your Fon Sao.

[jonp]

by T shape i meant elbow in centre forearm at 90o - more a reverse T :P


- whats a fon sau?

[YungChun]

Originally posted by jonp
by T shape i meant elbow in centre forearm at 90o - more a reverse T :P


- whats a fon sau?

Hmmm, okay, well if I understand then I think you should make your Tan a little flatter, like 45o or less. Mine is closer to 30o I think but not sure as I don't have a protractor handy.

Fon Sao means following hand - the other hand when you hit should be clearing for the follow up - don't forget your other hand when you hit!

Oh and to get your hand to go forward more naturally use a little forward pressure from the elbow and directed from the wrist into the centerline this will help you go through the cracks more naturally when they open.

[jonp]

"Hmmm, okay, well if I understand then I think you should make your Tan a little flatter, like 45o or less. Mine is closer to 30o I think but not sure as I don't have a protractor handy."

sorry man - was talking about angles from above - ie the angle from body (the cross of the T) to the tan (the l of the T) - the tan coming straight out of the body.

- that sort of angle is what i train in SNT but not what i often achieve in chi sau

thanks for the description of following hand - never heard that term used before

peace

[Mckind13]

Thanks KJ

You said allot of what I was afraid I might have too!

The Tan in my mind runs along the mid clavicle line. And starts a fist - fist and a half away but this is just a training reference point. On pre contact or contact it can move to meet the opponent just as easily as it can act as a wedge and disperse the opponents energy. Likewise a different angle of attack calls for me to change as well.

WCK is never the fixed position. It is always the moments between, the transitions.

My objective is to maintain good form that is as functional as I can make it for the situation.

However, my true secret goal is to destroy my opponent. Prevent him from fighting, destroy his balance, disable his timing etc. So when we (me and those I train with) look at Tan we look at functionality rather then form but one usually leads to the other.

Rambling again time to take my meds :)
Back to work!

David McKinnon

[barryc108]

I train to have forearm and elbow moblie enogh to go over to the OTHER side of my centerline. Which I often use. Other wise always ON centerline.

[barryc108]

"Other wise always ON centerline."

Sorry let me clarify this..... when doing such things as chung choi tan, jum etc. the centreling stuff. LOL :)

[Wingman]

sorry man - was talking about angles from above - ie the angle from body (the cross of the T) to the tan (the l of the T) - the tan coming straight out of the body.

- that sort of angle is what i train in SNT but not what i often achieve in chi sau

Putting the elbow directly on the centerline when doing a tan sao is very difficult; and may not be practical when doing chi sao. A tan sao is like a ship's bow. It slices through the waves. The ship's bow is triangular; and so is the structure of the tan sao.

In the beginning of SLT, we do the cross hands. The upper cross hands is actually 2 tan sao's done at the same time. It forms a triangle, with the chest as the base and the wrists as the apex. The elbow is slightly off center; but the wrists are on the centerline. My tan sao would still look like a "T" but the base of the l is slightly off center and the tip of the l is on the centerline.

[jonp]

i get you wingman - it is **** hard to get that elbow in the centre - but i try to get it there in SNT - without tensin up of course.

in practice it seems the position of the elbow is flexible as long as it remains within the body - if you get what i mean.

peace

[reneritchie]

What is the point in training with the elbows right in the center?

The same point as hitting a straight nail with a hammer.

[teazer]

Originally posted by Wingman
In the beginning of SLT, we do the cross hands. The upper cross hands is actually 2 tan sao's done at the same time.

Nah, that ain't no stinkin' Tan Sau!!!

[yylee]

Originally posted by reneritchie


The same point as hitting a straight nail with a hammer.

Hey Rene

So when you drive a nail into the wall with a hammer, do you line up the hammer with your shoulder line? or your centre line?

:) :) not a Wing Chun question

[reneritchie]

So when you drive a nail into the wall with a hammer, do you line up the hammer with your shoulder line? or your centre line?

With a small hand hammer, I smash down the center, supported by aligning the 7 points. With a huge sledge hammer, I align beyond the body, so I can get some real momentum power behind that sucker!!

(Not a WCK answer 8P )

[yylee]

Originally posted by reneritchie


With a small hand hammer, I smash down the center, supported by aligning the 7 points. With a huge sledge hammer, I align beyond the body, so I can get some real momentum power behind that sucker!!

(Not a WCK answer 8P )

I bet you brush your teeth in the morning with the 7 points aligned too :)

(not a WCK comment 8p)

[reneritchie]

Yes, to support the Lan to Bong transitions of my brushing action. 8)

[Martial Joe]

Put one of your wrists in the center and hold it up with the other arm. where ever your elbow falls naturally is where you should have it.

In the center is way too far.Its not about having the elbow in the center its about having the hands in the center.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Martial Joe
Put one of your wrists in the center and hold it up with the other arm. where ever your elbow falls naturally is where you should have it.

In the center is way too far.Its not about having the elbow in the center its about having the hands in the center.

So in Chi-Sao you're going to control my Tan or Fook (elbow in) only with your wrists? Good luck!

[Miles Teg]

RR
The nail anology, I dont think, is a good analogy. Yes we need to hit a nail straight or it wont work. But your oponent doenst represemble a nail in any way at all. You dont have to chase your oponents center line, you can hit him at any angle, on any side that he is standing. What I think is important is your center line not what he is doing with his, he could have his back to you but you still let it rip.

I think you probably think the same thing but I was just confused by the nail thing.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
RR
....
I think you probably think the same thing but I was just confused by the nail thing.

Miles, I think RR meant the arm is the nail while the body is the hammer.



RR says
Yes, to support the Lan to Bong transitions of my brushing action. 8)


LOL, brushing teeth while thinking "Chun" :D

[YungChun]

Originally posted by yylee


Miles, I think RR meant the arm is the nail while the body is the hammer.




Naturally - ever try hitting a nail that isn't straight? Where does the energy go? Not into the wood that's for sure. It's about aligning the body into a singular line of focused power.

[yylee]

Originally posted by YungChun



Naturally - ever try hitting a nail that isn't straight? Where does the energy go? Not into the wood that's for sure. It's about aligning the body into a singular line of focused power.

good point.

When one extends the punch fully, where is the singular line?

Is the singular line of focused power running along the arm? or a projection from the body center? Or both?

Now this a Wing Chun question, but Rene is probably zzzzleeping by now. Will let him think about it tomorrow morning during his Chum Kiu teeth brushing session ;)

[reneritchie]

The opponent is the wall. Your middle two knucles are the point of the nail. Your forearm is the nail. Your body, properly aligned, is the hammer. You touch the point of the nail into the wall, then hit it with the hammer.

[Miles Teg]

OOOOOOOOkkkkkkkkkk!!!
Im on the same track now. Thanks for the explanation.

Its kind of strange that I should understand this now while Im as drunk as a skunk and not understand it before when I wasnt.

Well anyway I still disagree that thats how your arms must be positioned for maximum power. In theory it is logical, but at the same time I dont agree because I dont believe your arms are capable of releasing nearly as much force when in such a awkward position.

I think I better leave it at that in my present state and find a better way of expressing what I mean later.

Night night!

[t_niehoff]

Rene Ritchie wrote:

The opponent is the wall. Your middle two knucles are the point of the nail. Your forearm is the nail. Your body, properly aligned, is the hammer. You touch the point of the nail into the wall, then hit it with the hammer. RR

Excellent description. Your "touch the point of the nail into the wall then . . . " illustrates correctly IMO when power is properly issued (after contact, and not from a distance). And "hit it with the hammer" I submit is not just to use the body to generate power in any way, but refers to a very particular (specific) manner (demonstrated in SNT/SLT). TN

Terence

[anerlich]

So in Chi-Sao you're going to control my Tan or Fook (elbow in) only with your wrists? Good luck!

To my mind, this is the essence of the answer from a classical WC POV. In Dan Chi Sao, you hav fook sao, he has tan. If your elbow is not brought far enough in to occupy the direct path from his tan hand to your body, he can strike directly to the body. If your elbow is in far enough to occupy the path, he must move your fook aside to make a path before striking, which you can then feel fast enough to counteract.

All other things being equal if he only needs one offensive move (direct strike to the mark), he can attack faster than you can percieve and defend. If he needs two moves (move your fook to clear the path, then strike) your chances of countering increase significantly.

It is IMHO not necessary to have the elbow right in the centre to occupy the path. To my mind, right in the centre is inferior structure and places undue stress on the shoulder. Driving the forearm in a direct straight lineat 90 degrees to the target may be the most direct path, ubt is IMHO not necessarily the best use of body mechanics for injury-free power generation.

I've alwas been taught, "elbows in" never "elbows at the centre".

[Wingman]

Originally posted by teazer

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Wingman
In the beginning of SLT, we do the cross hands. The upper cross hands is actually 2 tan sao's done at the same time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nah, that ain't no stinkin' Tan Sau!!!

If it is not a tan sao, then what is it?:) I think it depends on the way you perform the cross hands. From the lower cross hands position, if you just move up your forearms to upper cross hands position; then you are right. It is not a tan sao.

But we do the upper cross hands differently as described above. From the lower cross hands position, we curl our hands inwards, then move it up and forward to upper cross hands position. That's why I believe it is a tan sao.

Whether it is a tan sao or not, is not that important. What is more important is the idea conveyed in the cross hands. The tan sao (or whatever technique it is), is just a tool to convey that idea.

What is the idea behind the cross hands? There are actually 3, and they are:

1. vertical centerline -- the cross hands define your vertical centerline. It divides the body into 2 gates - left and right gate.

2. the centerline which is the shortest distance to your opponent. The upper cross hands form a triangle, with your body/chest as the base and the intersection of the wrists as the apex. The apex points directly to your opponent's centerline. The straight line from your center to the apex is the shortest distance to your opponent.

3. occupying the centerline. The triangle formed by the cross hands define the area that you must occupy in order to control the centerline.

The SLT (Little Idea Form) is composed of WC techniques and ideas. The techniques are the tools used to convey the idea. Just like an iceberg, the techniques are what we see above the surface. It only comprises 1/8th of SLT. The other 7/8ths are the ideas for us to fathom.

Disclaimer: The above ideas are just my opinion. You are welcome to offer a dissenting opinion.:)

[EnterTheWhip]

Are there any applications to those definitions?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Are there any applications to those definitions?

Yes. There could be many applications/interpretations; but here's mine:

The vertical centerline divides the body into left and right gates. If the incoming strike is aimed at your right gate; then open the right gate to let the strike pass thru. In other words, use your right hand/leg to deal with it.

If the strike is aimed at the center, it is imperative that you occupy the centerline to deal with the strike.

And when it is your turn to attack, use the shortest distance to your opponent.

[S.Teebas]

And when it is your turn to attack..

Attack all the time. Why wait?

[yuanfen]

Attack all the time.? Sounds dogmatic... could lead to unduly trading blows.
Joy

[S.Teebas]

I said attack all the time, not hit all the time. There's a big difference.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


Attack all the time. Why wait?

Ideally, you should always attack when there is an opportunity to do so. But how often does this opportunity present itself? Your opponent won't hand it to you in a silver plater. We should actively strive to create opportunities to attack. We should always look for holes in our opponent's defense; and fortify our own. Having a good defense can lead to opportunities to attack.

"Attack is the secret of defense; defense is the planning of an attack".

[Miles Teg]

Anerlich Wrote:
"To my mind, this is the essence of the answer from a classical WC POV. In Dan Chi Sao, you hav fook sao, he has tan. If your elbow is not brought far enough in to occupy the direct path from his tan hand to your body, he can strike directly to the body. If your elbow is in far enough to occupy the path, he must move your fook aside to make a path before striking, which you can then feel fast enough to counteract."

"All other things being equal if he only needs one offensive move (direct strike to the mark), he can attack faster than you can percieve and defend. If he needs two moves (move your fook to clear the path, then strike) your chances of countering increase significantly".


I see it as the otherway around. If my wrist is sitting on your wrist with some forward pressure, I dont need my elbow to occupy the center. Instead of using my wrist to redirect you I would use my whole arm by sinking the elbow and moving the elbow down and back to my side, in other words the main thing that moves is my shoulder, my wrist/arm angle would stay mostly the same. Its a slight circular donward motion. By doing it this way I am using a greater mass and I can be more relaxed, if I am simply moving my wrist (ie. opening the angle between my wrist and upper arm) then I am relying on more local muscle groups, the bicep I believe.

Looking at it from the other way around if I was doing the Tan and someone had their fok right in the center on my tan, I would recognize that he/she doesnt have much feedom with the elbows and essentially is only using their wrists. Then I would punch through their tan using my elbow and whole mass while they try and block with a very small group to muscles.
As my tan wouldnt be right in the center I wouldnt be trying to punch right down the center but Id still be able to go through the whole tan arm because Id be using my whole body while the oponent is only using his bicep.


I was taught that the shoulder should be thought of like a board of wood nailed to a wall. Your shoulder obviously being the nail. The arm should just hang off it and without tension, if your elbows are in then you are going against gravity and creating tension in your shoulders, which means you cant generate as much power.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
I dont need my elbow to occupy the center. Instead of using my wrist to redirect you I would use my whole arm by sinking the elbow and moving the elbow down and back to my side,

You're not occupying the line. You're going to move your elbow out to the side? Then there is nothing in the center - you are not filling up the Centerline you are opening it. If you try to redirect with your wrist and your elbow is outside then you no longer have body alignment no leverage, you are using arm muscle instead of structure and will have to rely on using lateral energy, which is what WCK feeds on.

Question: What happens when you press down on a Tan Sao with your Fook? Anyone?

WCK uses forward energy to redirect and it uses something else called the immovable elbow to get there, heard of that? The elbow need not be directly in the Center of the body - the left should be just to the left of the line and the right should be just to the right of the line. If you use a Fook and keep your elbow outside - as most beginners do - you will have a very hard time stopping the Tan from coming straight in, your elbow is not aligned with your wrist and therefore is not aligned with the body. If that isn't enough you are also not filling up the Centerline, which is a key element in the system.

If you do manage to stop or redirect a Tan that way you will be using lots of lateral or sideways/up/down energy to do so and as I said: This is what WCK feeds off of and you will be sent spinning around by good partner.

We fill the Centerline - not react - we are there already - that's Wing Chun. Are the dummy's elbow's in? Where are the elbows in the forms? Does it make more sense to stop a real attack with your wrist or with your forearm - structurally supported by the immovable elbow not muscle? If you deflect an attack with your forearm (in) you are on the right line to counter....The deflection and the counter ultimately become one and the same forward movement - this is not possible with your 'from the outside circling wrist block'. Come on it's as clear as glass.

[teazer]

Originally posted by Wingman
If it is not a tan sao, then what is it?
(snip)
Yes. There could be many applications/interpretations; but here's mine:
The [B]vertical centerline divides the body into left and right gates. If the incoming strike is aimed at your right gate; then open the right gate to let the strike pass thru. In other words, use your right hand/leg to deal with it.
If the strike is aimed at the center, it is imperative that you occupy the centerline to deal with the strike.


All reasonable, I'd even go so far as to say you aren't limited to right hand opening to right gate, though it is preferable.
So how does this relate to Tan sau? Perhaps in useage Tan hasn't happened yet......?

[yuanfen]

Teazer sez:All reasonable, I'd even go so far as to say you aren't limited to right hand opening to right gate, though it is preferable.
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Why preferable?

joy

[S.Teebas]

I think YungChun and Miles are both correct in that they both are advicating not to force anything. I believe there are better strctures than others, which will yeild better results tactically. But in the begining im finding its ok to move the arm (if pressure is applied) anywhere except for where the force is coming from while maintaining forward force. This allows me to practice keeping free and allows movement from no matter where pressure is applied. Saying that, i believe letting the elbow hang naturally is the proper postion (ie no fixed position as long as structure is maintained).

[Wingman]

Originally posted by teazer

... So how does this relate to Tan sau? Perhaps in useage Tan hasn't happened yet......?

I don't quite understand your question. Please clarify.

[anerlich]

Question: What happens when you press down on a Tan Sao with your Fook? Anyone?

You usually get hit in the chest or face as his hand follows the pressure, circles over the top of yours and strikes down the line your descending fook sao left open. If your elbow is out as well, it is even easier for him to disengage and smack you.

[YungChun]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Saying that, i believe letting the elbow hang naturally is the proper postion (ie no fixed position as long as structure is maintained).

If the elbow hangs naturally, ie not in I fail to see what structure exists.


Originally posted by anerlich


You usually get hit in the chest or face as his hand follows the pressure, circles over the top of yours and strikes down the line your descending fook sao left open. If your elbow is out as well, it is even easier for him to disengage and smack you.

And there it is! If you're not in the Center your going to have to recover - and recovery should not be the first choice - being there to begin with should be.

[teazer]

Why preferable?

joy

depending on the angles, with the alternative of using the right hand to cover your left gate you have to be more careful not to cross the centerline, or add extra bells & whistles to maintain control. Often times the angle of pressure from that position pushes the arm to bong sau, which when done cross-wise can get a bit hairy, and in any case has it's liabilities. All of which impedes the use of the left hand for a bit.
This is assuming that the attack is still coming to that gate, & you haven't already adjusted to bring it more over the center or right.

[yylee]

Originally posted by YungChun


If the elbow hangs naturally, ie not in I fail to see what structure exists.



Terms like structure, alignment, Jan Dai Lik (elbow force) or immovable elbow could mean apple to some, orange to others. When elbows and shoulders are relax and sinking (or what they mean by hanging), the whole body link is more complete. When one feels what the body link does to structure, one knows how "in" is good for him/herself. It is a matter of finding the right feeling for oneself. Of course, some people concern more about the energy realm, while others looks at technique, drills and fighting scenarios more. That is human nature.

[S.Teebas]

good post yylee


When elbows and shoulders are relax and sinking (or what they mean by hanging), the whole body link is more complete.

...thats what i was thinking along the lines of. Its not exactly what you see, but what you feel. An arm could appear to be in the right position, but overt tension in this "visually correct" position makes it incorrect IMO.

Im in no way advotating that teh elbow be sticking out to the side, actually i agree that the elbow should 'in', but i believe there is more to it than meets the eye (excuse the pun) ;)

[TjD]

theres no way to hold your arm up without tension. unless your resting it on something else.

it's a lot easier to "rest" your fook sau or tan sau on another person's arm/incoming energy when its in the center than when hanging down by your side.

in wing chun your fighting another person, not air. in application having your fook or tan in the center is the more relaxed position, holding it there doing a form it may not be.

[S.Teebas]

it's a lot easier to "rest" your fook sau or tan sau on another person's arm/incoming energy when its in the center than when hanging down by your side.

Muscles hang, joints rotate. You can still have your arm hanging and be in the correct position IMHO.

[TjD]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


Muscles hang, joints rotate. You can still have your arm hanging and be in the correct position IMHO.


what is tan sau used for? how does one apply it?

[Miles Teg]

Yes as yylee said.
Actually Ive been told by my teacher that as one gets more advanced the elbow does come in a little, but it is important to learn the correct feeling and structure first. As far as I imagine I dont think they come in all that much though, and the elbows certainly dont go right in the middle. I personally think that is suicide and it has been proven to me many times when I used to do it that way.


Comparing the difference in punching between elbows in/out, I thought of something the other day and that is:
When the punch is fully extended both types of punches end up in the same place. The difference between these two ways of punching is the route that each takes to get there. So in effect the `elbows in is closer to your target and the shortest route` philosphy is not valid.

Also with the same idea, RRs analogy of a hammer is not valid because my shoulder does not come from the middle of my body, if it did that would be great and maybe more powerful, but unfortunately for us humans our shoulders are on our sides. We can fool ourselves by putting our forearms in the middle but look what your upper arm is doing. Where is the tension going?

.................................................. ...elbows in..........elbows not in
relaxed........................................... .less...................more
muscular capability..........................less.......... .........more
use of localised muscle....................more.................les s
connection with
whole body......................................less.... ...............more
space from target............................same............ .....same
freedom to manouver
elbow............................................. ..less...................more

I believe there is more but I cant prove that without arguement or physical contact with someone. But the list above is pretty much the way it is.

Do you think Tai Chi people can�ft defend their center? There is a reason they dont have their elbows in.

[S.Teebas]

what is tan sau used for? how does one apply it?

That's a pretty broard question. You've quoted me then asked a question, how does the question relate to my quote? Perhaps if your more specific in correlation between your question and my quote I can give you a more appropriate answer.

[TjD]

i'm wondering because it might just come down to the fact that you use tan sau differently than I do, to accomplish different things :) then hanging might not be a bad thing :D

[[Censored]]

Comparing the difference in punching between elbows in/out, I thought of something the other day and that is:
When the punch is fully extended both types of punches end up in the same place.

Not if the elbow moves straight forward. :confused:

The difference between these two ways of punching is the route that each takes to get there. So in effect the `elbows in is closer to your target and the shortest route` philosphy is not valid.

I agree that the "shortest route" is nothing special, but I don't understand your reasoning.

Also with the same idea, RRs analogy of a hammer is not valid because my shoulder does not come from the middle of my body, if it did that would be great and maybe more powerful, but unfortunately for us humans our shoulders are on our sides.

Good point.

Do you think Tai Chi people can't defend their center? There is a reason they dont have their elbows in.

There are a few reasons. "Soft beats hard, hard-soft beats soft, hard beats hard-soft". Definitely worth understanding.

[S.Teebas]

Hanging or relaxing muscles is for feeling. Cnce felt and linked, cohesive mass used to support weakest part structure, namely point of contact from external force trying to hurt you! Regards to tan, this is not exclusively specific to tan, but definitely applicable. Tan just a structure that deflects incoming force, pending angle of entry of force coming in...this changes the exact position of tan used. Impossible IMHO to say this is tan sau for every situation.

Perhaps you can explain your take on it Tjd? And what is your linage out of curiosity?

[TjD]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Hanging or relaxing muscles is for feeling. Cnce felt and linked, cohesive mass used to support weakest part structure, namely point of contact from external force trying to hurt you! Regards to tan, this is not exclusively specific to tan, but definitely applicable. Tan just a structure that deflects incoming force, pending angle of entry of force coming in...this changes the exact position of tan used. Impossible IMHO to say this is tan sau for every situation.

Perhaps you can explain your take on it Tjd? And what is your linage out of curiosity?

the hanging relaxed feeling you describe is how i would describe a fook sau (or an arm with a fook sau type energy). tan sau is something different, however you can play it like a fook sau if need be. tan sau is a wedge, it goes forward. its more "rigid" than bong sau and fook sau in that there is no joint movement - some people like to call it " fully linked"?

tan sau energy can be used for cutting through an opponents strike, or using that strike as a spring board for propeling your weapon to them. on its more softer side, it can be used for redirection, but the stance and the fully linkedness of it is what does the redirection.

fook sau hinges at the elbow, bong sau at the shoulder, and tan sau does not hinge at all

edit: my sigung is ip ching, and i try to stay true to what he and my sifu teach me - although if i ever am making an ass out of myself its my fault not theirs :D

travis

[yuanfen]

tjd- I dont understand this at all:

fook sau hinges at the elbow, bong sau at the shoulder, and tan sau does not hinge at all

[S.Teebas]

tan sau is a wedge, it goes forward. its more "rigid" than bong sau and fook sau in that there is no joint movement

Agree on the wedge idea. But isn't the composition of a bong sau a tan then a fook before the rolling the last part of the motion into the bong?

[TjD]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


Agree on the wedge idea. But isn't the composition of a bong sau a tan then a fook before the rolling the last part of the motion into the bong?

the last "rolling" IS the bong sau, just like how you can the impact of a punch the strike - not when the fist is going from chamber to a foot away from the chest, or the next 5 inches of the fist, etc. bong, fook, tan are only truely there when theres contact.

if your bong sau has hinged at the elbow, it has collapsed - in a "pure" bong sau this is bad - youll get hit, the strike has come through your bong sau, and you need to get out of the way with a shift or a step, or hope your wu sau has got your back.

wing chun isnt about rigid use of principles; the tan, fook and bong sau energies can be blended, and be used the from "aggressive" way in one extreme, or the "passive" way in the other extreme.

if you blend the fook and bong energy into something more like a cup jarn, the hinging at the elbow can turn the collapsed bong sau into an elbow strike, or a covering motion (which just begs to be followed up with a backfist or fak sau - see the very second motion in chum kiu right after the double gan sau for the backfist).

[TjD]

Originally posted by yuanfen
tjd- I dont understand this at all:

fook sau hinges at the elbow, bong sau at the shoulder, and tan sau does not hinge at all

with a fook sau type energy, there is a "link" of structure or body alignment from the ground to the elbow. the relaxation of the elbow couple with the fact that your forarm doesnt bend (unless its broken :eek: ) creates a hingeing effect which redirects what your forarm or hand is touching - if your structure is good, the movement takes place at the elbow.

with a bong sau type energy, the "linkage" is from the ground to your shoulder, which is where the movement takes place - due to the relaxation of the shoulder and proper structure/body alignment.

with a tan sau type energy, the "linkage" is from the ground to your hand. masters have been described as having "immovable tan saus". when your structure is good, the tan sau goes where you want it to go. as your body is fully aligned from the floor to the point of contact. the centerline punch is a good example of this kind of energy, you want alignment from your knuckles to the ground - or else you have a weak punch, or will get knocked back or uprooted.

and like i've said before, they can all be mixed and matched - but i think these three energies are a good way of describing how the arm works in wing chun. it's been said that all the hands in wing chun come from tan sau, fook sau and bong sau; and for me this is a good way of describing how that happens.

[S.Teebas]

bong, fook, tan are only truely there when theres contact.

What about during the forms?

[TjD]

the open handed forms are a good way to learn body mechanics, find your center of gravity and get a good root, learn to relax, gain speed, and many more things. the hand positions get committed to muscle memory, but muscle memory of where to have your hands wont give you much. thats why we chi sau - a lot. the hands of wing chun really come into play when theres a reason to use them - contact. if nothing is there - strike!

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by TjD
but muscle memory of where to have your hands wont give you much. thats why we chi sau - a lot. the hands of wing chun really come into play when theres a reason to use them - contact. if nothing is there - strike!
The more I chi sau, the more I realize that by comparison to forms, it is less significant - yet still important.

[yuanfen]

tjd- the elbow plays a key role in all three- bong-tan-fok motions
IMHO.
joy c