All Roads lead to ?

[Yum Cha]

In traditional Southern styles, I've heard people say "All roads lead to the same place." At face value, it makes a certain sense, but most likely, it makes the same certain sense to different people in different ways.

So, what does it mean to you?

From one viewpoint it could mean that all lives eventually lead to death, the only common experience we all share other than birth, but...

In my opinion, there's more to it.

Does it mean that all styles are the same, that to rise above is to move beyond the constraints of style?

Does it mean we all come to the same understanding eventually, regardless of how it manifests in our hands?

Is it a condition of the mind, or an understanding of the art, or a level of physical achievement?

And, what are the lessons that take you there?

Anybody have any comments?

[extrajoseph]

C'est pour moi! All roads lead to me as a human being, physically, mentally and spiritually and it takes one lesson a day until I can't do it any more to get there. What style? What vehicle? CLF rules! :)

[fiercest tiger]

Leads to enlightment and understanding of oneself! When you learn kung fu, and you know it good you will know that life can be taken away so easily within a second or you can heal as well. So what you are saying is kinda like life and death!:)

my thoughts.:)

The roads may not be straight and may take you alittle long then some as well:)

FT

[Diamond Talons]

Your post is deep YC & good stuff thought. I see no one answer & even then a person's will change in time at least a little bit I think. If a person is interested in skill to receive and issue force then no matter what style their body will learn what it needs to reach this goal & if they are concerned with other things then no matter what style they will learn this stuff no matter if it's of the body or mind or spirit. I like spirit as example & can say there is no such thing as more spiritual than & one is spiritual or one is not spiritual & this isn't so much like kung fu skill where what the foe can do shades what I can do but it is same kind of thing. All people go beyond style at a certain time if they've done it right & what shows is the flavor of the hand & the meal itself is the man & we're all meat & flesh & bones & blood so just the flavor is what is left at a certain time & some call this essence. Tai Chi people move like Tai Chi people & Tong Long people move like Tong Long people & there is no difference between the man & the hand in any part of the person's life. Just for me & not fact so to avoid politics of which hand is better crazy stuff.

[meltdawn]

...uhhhhhhhhh, Rome?

:D

[buddhapalm]

Yum Cha said:
<In traditional Southern styles, I've heard people say "All roads lead to the same place." At face value, it makes a certain sense, but most likely, it makes the same certain sense to different people in different ways.

So, what does it mean to you?>

To myself, all styles teach how to hit and not be hit, this is the "same place", same goal, I feel.

Since there are infinite angles and infinite combinations of hitting and not getting hit, then each style represents a portion of those movements.

<Does it mean that all styles are the same, that to rise above is to move beyond the constraints of style?>

To me I feel all styles are the same, yet not the same. IE, same goal, different angle. I could say we rise above, stoop below, or stand aside, when moving beyond constraints of style. Direction is relative to who is looking at you. Since styles are just styles, tastes are just tastes, but food is still food and good hands are good hands. I agree with Diamond Talons on this.

<Does it mean we all come to the same understanding eventually, regardless of how it manifests in our hands?>

I thinks so. We all learn how to hit and not be hit. Other understandings that also come along the way may be different for each of us though. Some may mix martial arts with Buddhism/religion and relate Kung Fu to Buddhism/religion. Some people may mix Kung Fu with ego and relate their skill with their ego. We can mix our Kung Fu with anything and we will have many different ways of looking at our Kung Fu, but deep down underneath we hit and dont get hit....I hope :-))))

<Is it a condition of the mind, or an understanding of the art, or a level of physical achievement?>

I believe it is a combination of all of the above. Development of harmony of mind (intent/awareness), body (muscle control/strength, breathing, relaxation), and the art of putting it together beautifully and efficiently like beautiful caligraphy. I guess we end up simply "doing" Kung Fu.

<And, what are the lessons that take you there?>

Perhaps we are there but dont know it. Perhaps I need to do another 10,000 repetitions a day and I will get there eventually. If "there", as you say, means achievement and understanding of the art.

Just some mad ramblings from Buddhapalm.

Cheers

[Cody]

the place, to me, is union of body, mind and spirit which is made manifest. The specific art is a vehicle, a style, a personal preference, which leads to the above. that union and the changes it brings. the manifestation is of the self in its unbridled and purest sense. What is, whether balanced or not; what is with trained ability to act and project.

Cody

[fiercest tiger]

Talking Heads song was the key..........where on a road to know where.



:rolleyes:

[needlefist]

FT,

Is that nowhere or 'know'-where?

Big difference...

[lungyuil]

To me it means that no matter what style you practice. the end result is the same.

Look at interrnal styles, they start off internal then go external and with external styles it is vice versa, yet the result at the end of the day is exactly the same.

different roads suit different people during different stages in their lives.

I know that i met my sifu 3 years prior to training with him. I first called him about training and he put me onto another teacher because of my previous style. Then 3 yrs later i started training with him and been going ever since.

that is my understanding of the saying. If it is meant to be then no matter which path you take, you will get to the same point.:)

This works in all aspects of life. I have experienced it first hand and still experience it every day.

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
Talking Heads song was the key..........where on a road to know where.

:rolleyes:

Pun intended methinks!

[fiercest tiger]

Yes, you are correct! Thanks for picking up my mistakes..............:mad: :)

FT

[Yum Cha]

"Know where?" "nowhere?" works for me...

Thank you all for your considered answers. All interesting and thought provoking. There is little one could find to disagree with but some quite varied perspectives.

For me, it comes to many things. Life and death, most assuredly on one level. To a open hand beyond style, certainly, on another level. Psychologically if not stylistically... One reason I agree with DT that the art travels with the man, not simply by its own strength.

Or even perhaps an inner peace that renders the whole study of violence secondary to the pursuit of internal discipline? Enlightenment of sorts, to each their own...?

So, is it a result of external or internal efforts? Is it trained, or discovered?

I reckon there is a bit of both happening, if you are in good hands...

[fiercest tiger]

There is a poem for the road, it goes...

13 bricks
yellow road
wicked witch, wicked hands


YOU GET THIS?:D

OR

could these roads just be telling us that there is 13 ways to enter ur opponent?:)

ask the RTA they should know....hahahah

ok im out!

FT:D

[buddhapalm]

<I reckon there is a bit of both happening, if you are in good hands...>

Good hands, another pun :-)))

<So, is it a result of external or internal efforts? Is it trained, or discovered?>

I believe in a nutshell...both.

The internal need creates internal desire.
The internal desire creates internal efforts.
Internal efforts find an external teacher
An external teacher can point to an internal mind.
An external teacher develops an internal skill.
An internal mind is awakened and can see.
An internal skill is developed and can be used.

(Internal and external not relating to Internal/External Kung Fu styles, but internal and external influences)
(Teacher can be any outside person, book, experiences or external influence)

<Or even perhaps an inner peace that renders the whole study of violence secondary to the pursuit of internal discipline? Enlightenment of sorts, to each their own...?>

I believe every action contains violence of some kind. The warmth of the sun is created by intense violent burning of gases. The freedom we enjoy is due to the violence of our forefathers and protectors. The food we enjoy is due to the violence of the butcher. There is no "living" without violence.

To me violence is simply the use of force. It is called "violence" because "human" morals disdain the use of force on each other. But violence is still basically force applied to create the needed effects. To intimidate, to impress, to invade, to conquor. It is the force required to benefit in certain situations. Benefit a person, a political group or a country.

So to me violence is force. Kung Fu is the mastery of violence and force. Therefore attempting to master Kung Fu teaches us how to master force in any and all applications. A circular block is no different than a circular argument by a diplomat. An evasive step is no different than military guerilla warfare. One hour horse stance is no different than a grueling lifetime facing adversity. To me Kung Fu teaches us to use and master force. Our own and that of the universe.

With this in mind, to me it makes the whole study of violence first and foremost.

Sorry for blabbing too much.

Cheers

[Yum Cha]

FT, there you've done it, given away the secrets of OZ Kung Fu. Beware of killers in the night from the 13 deadly Koala Palm school. I hear their grand master was a drop bear.

Buddah,
I couldn't follow your logic on internal and external, but your point on violence is well built. What is the difference between violence and force, or persuasion? When does a Forceful action become a violent one. Does it have to do with intent?

[fiercest tiger]

That 4 bears escaped the burning of the shaolin temple, they all fled to omei mountains and chose new names! hahahaha

Humprey Bear changed his name to BAKKK MEIII

Winney the Poo changed it to Fung Doe Duk

now if you can tell me the other bears and where they went then ill tell you a story?

LOL BearBear may know as he is also one?:)


FT:)

[buddhapalm]

Sorry, I am too longwinded for my own good.

<What is the difference between violence and force, or persuasion? >

If I am violent I am using direct force. If I am persuasive I am persuading with force "or" desire.

Force - "Do this, or face the conscequences"
Desire - "Do this, and you get this"

One is pushing, the other pulling. Both using some force (like a magnet), but in different directions. Force of violence or force of desire to lure you.

<Does it have to do with intent?>

To me force is force, either with or without intent. You step on a bug and it is violent force, only without any violent intent. Therefore we use force and violence with "and" without intent every moment. We kill germs, we kill bugs, we compete politically....all with different levels of intention.

(The internal need creates internal desire.
The internal desire creates internal efforts.
Internal efforts find an external teacher
An external teacher can point to an internal mind.
An external teacher develops an internal skill.
An internal mind is awakened and can see.
An internal skill is developed and can be used.)

I meant that without a need within, then there is no desire to fill that need.

If there is a need, then it creates a desire to fill it. The desire stirs one to action.

If the need is one of wisdom, then ones desire drives one to find a teacher. The good teacher then teaches you, but he basically whittles away at all the garbage you have collected and refines you to a pure state. When you are pure then you are awake.

A bad teacher will pile all kinds of garbage onto you and make you a robotic clone of someone else.

Musashi said that a great carpenter uses each piece of wood for different purposes. Bent wood for the arches, thick wood for foundations, fine wood for tiling etc. Each piece of wood utilized as its nature see's fit. Nothing is useless. Everything has its use.

Short stocky people are good at Hung Gar. Thinner flexible people are good at Bak Shaolin. Each thing is suited for different things just like the wood of the carpenter.

So the good teacher will know this and maximise the students inner strength, advantages and talents.

What am I saying. That the teacher will see the strengths of the student and refine it, polishing away the dirt from the mirror. The student has potential, the teacher makes it apparent. But only with the hard work and desire of the student.

More ramblings again. Just my thoughts on things.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[Yum Cha]

Thank you for your very considered response.

Your point on self-fulfilling desires and motivations is well taken.

I tend to have a different outlook towards Force and Violence. Force is carried in the hands, but violence is carried in the heart. The tool versus the workman if you will. Is a gun inherently violent, or only when weilded by one with the heart to do violence with it?

I read a reprint from a Skinhead manifesto on the open forum, concerning the developement of the animal within required to gouge eyes from their sockets and comit other extreme and brutal acts. The Berzerker mentality perhaps.

In many arts that is practiced with cold and calculating precision, to the point where it becomes second nature, and simply another tool in the basket.

This certainly goes to heart?

You introduce another point, picking up on a subtlty I thought would go un-noticed.

A good teacher strips you of your garbage, and a poor one piles it on. I'd never heard that before, but it makes a lot of sense.

Now, as for the body type and the art...while very convenient, I think it only very liberally applies. He says, being a chunky guy doing an art from a skinny guy...<grin>

I think it is fair to say that the same art may speak differently to two individuals based upon their stature. Look at Lam Yeu Gwai, a keg of a man, and his cousin Cheung Lai Cheun, tall and slender. Both grew up and trained together and became the Dragon Grand Master and Pak Mei Grand Master. Look at the differences in the styles. Draw your conclusions as best you can.

The result, is as you so well illustrated with Mushashi, that the teacher has to help each discover their strengths and weaknesses, natural enough.

[buddhapalm]

<I tend to have a different outlook towards Force and Violence. Force is carried in the hands, but violence is carried in the heart. The tool versus the workman if you will. Is a gun inherently violent, or only when weilded by one with the heart to do violence with it? >

Good point and explanation. Your point is not so different from mine. Just said more efficiently :-)

Yes, the tool is not the workman. The tool is the extension of the workman. The heart of the workman is inspired by his need, his need creates a desire to fulfill that need. His desire and heart find a tool and use force to make effective work. The worker could be a soldier and his tool his gun. So it is his heart, his need, his desire that bring the gun to life.....as you say. Same with a fighters good hands. His desire and need to survive bring his hands to life....especially with good training. The greater his need, the greater his hands. A to Z.

Regarding definitions of violence:

I believe force is flavored in many ways. Flavored with violence, flavored with benevolence, all, as you say, stemming from the heart for different reasons. Because of different desires and needs.

So I believe we both say the same thing in different ways. That the heart/desire/need use force to accomplish the required result. That result is labeled violence if considered excessive with brutal intent.

But extreme force can also be called heroism if used to defeat the enemies of the majority.

So I agree with you, but one point I make is that mankind uses labels for everything. What is considered brutal violence for one side, can be considered heroism and justice for another side. What defines violence is only the side you are sitting on.

Lets get ready for the skinheads.

Cheers from Buddhapalm :-)

[Sui]

hi yum,what about the after-life?do all raods stop at death?

as for force,force is chanelled energy.force exsist because all living things exsist.so when we pass away do we still not exsist?

i would really like to believe that all raods lead to the same place in kung fu but i some how doubt it.its to perfect least to say.i believe in the strive for perfection not perfection itself.so i would say no,the raods do not lead to the same place,some ppl are destined for this and some are not,some are ignorant.is heavan the place?

cheers yum

sui

[buddhapalm]

<what is the sound of 3 hands clapping> .....good one :-)))

Thats some damm loud clapping LOL.

Who needs Mo Ying Gek when you have Salm Tit Sau :-)))

Cheers


Buddhapalm

[cha kuen]

All roads lead to the same circle~!

**KUNG FU BOOKS** (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)

[Sui]

hi buddhapalm,how are you?you seem to know,maybe you could give me a little more?or share with the rest of the forum?

cheers sui

[Sui]

cha,would that be inwards or outwards?the circle that is?also from which direction to that circle?also if you may is it an imaginary circle?if so is it an illusion?what is real about the circle?

cheers sui

[buddhapalm]

"In heaven and earth no spot to hide;
Bliss belongs to one who knows that things
are empty and that man too is nothing.
Splendid indeed is the Mongol longsword
Slashing the spring wind like a flash of lightning!"

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Sui
hi yum,what about the after-life?do all roads stop at death?

I cannot say, as I have not been there yet <grin>. Can something begin without an end?

as for force, force is chanelled energy.force exsist because all living things exsist.so when we pass away do we still not exsist?

Certainly, some of us remains in the hearts and minds of those whom we have touched, but what more?

i would really like to believe that all roads lead to the same place in kung fu but i some how doubt it.its to perfect least to say.i believe in the strive for perfection not perfection itself.so i would say no,the raods do not lead to the same place,some ppl are destined for this and some are not,some are ignorant.

Can we say that while the road may lead to this place, ever decreasing numbers of players get close to the end of the road. That is to say, the roads may lead together, but how few if any make it that far? I like to say that a road map is not the same as a destination.

is heavan the place?

Heaven of sorts perhaps. I am thinking more of a lower level, that of a physical as opposed to spiritual nature, but the two do come together in a way...

cheers yum

sui [/B]

And cheers to you Sui, and Happy New Year.