PDA

View Full Version : Nameless Outlaw



mantis_seeker
12-18-2002, 09:50 AM
I find it interesting that all branches of mantis trace to a nameless outlaw or bandit in their lineages. I just wondered about this since most chinese perfer to not be assoc. with those elements. Many styles try to trace to a famous figure like General Yue Fei.

Just wondered if it is some figurative thing. I mean if you don't remember who your great great great .. sifu learned from why pull out an nameless bandit?

mantis_seeker

Skarbromantis
12-18-2002, 10:51 AM
No nameless bandit in 7* if I remember correct.

Is there a 7* bandit?

Wang Lang

?? (Monks at Shaolin temple, some branches simply ignore this generation) ?? (Monks at Shaolin temple, some branches simply ignore this generation)

Shen Xiao Dao Ren

Li San Jian

Wang Rong Sheng

Fan Xu Dong

Luo Guang Yu (Shanghai / Hong Kong)

(taken from the Mantis Cave)

Where is the bandit?

Skard1

Stacey
12-18-2002, 07:00 PM
yes there is, which always seemed fishy to me. I mean, maybe praying mantis died out with wong long and was reinvented by "Nameless Outlaw"'s supposed student. He probably heard about it, made it up and claimed some nameless outlaw taught him

Ok a little far fetched, but it is strange.

Kung Fu has been steeped in the underworld. Probably why it doens' thave the same squeeky clean image as tkd or karate.

Were the sith.

mantis_seeker
12-18-2002, 08:35 PM
Hi Skarbromantis,

Sometimes people insert a bandit between Li San Jian and Shen Xiao Dao Ren. It makes more sense that there was a person between the two and most people droped him.

If you look at the dates between Li San Jian and Shen Xiao Dao Ren they don't exactly match up. If Shen Xiao Dao Ren wrote the Shaolin Authentics in the early to middle 1700's then Shen Xiao Dao Ren would be at least 70 (most likely 100) when Li San Jian was born in the 1820's.

mantis_seeker

Skarbromantis
12-18-2002, 09:09 PM
Hi Mantis _seeker,

I never seen that in any charts, not that I remember, strange, thats for sure, thanks!


Skard1

Tainan Mantis
12-18-2002, 10:05 PM
mantis seeker,
What you say makes a lot of sense.

MantisifuFW
12-19-2002, 02:15 PM
Both the history of Meihua, which relies upon the Nameless Outlaw and the Qixing history, which for the most part does not, have great problems if one reads them as objective accounts. Neither version is unassailable from a factual standpoint. The problem today is that there is, in the West, a growing movement of practitioners who try to present their version of the story as objective history to validate some presumed superiority or higher degree of legitimacy.

In actuality, the mainlanders of both Meihua and Qixing look upon the story as legend and not as fact.

The same kind of thing went on for many years between WHF and CCM Hong Kong mantis and it accomplished little other than creating great enmity between the clans that still exists today for many.

Shaolin Authentic, in the history I heard, was written by Fan Xudong at the turn of the 20th century. What line's history are you citing in your research. I would be greatly interested in the alternative interpretation!

Thanks for bringing up a seldom discussed topic.

Steve Cottrell

Stacey
12-19-2002, 04:43 PM
What style are you a sifu in?

MantisifuFW
12-19-2002, 04:54 PM
I teach Northern Praying Mantis, I learned under Sifu Brendan Lai.
How about you?

MantisifuFW
12-19-2002, 06:33 PM
Tainan Mantis et al,

The information on the nameless outlaw appearing in Qixing texts is most interesting. I have checked the lineages of Tanglang in WHF & CCM Hong Kong versions, Shanghai, Yantai and Qingtao Qixing and have not found it there in my research. Hence my question as to the line of history it comes from. My research is by no means exaustive but it is surprising that I missed it, and exciting at a cross over existing between Meihua history and Qixing.

Thanks,

Steve Cottrell

Stacey
12-19-2002, 07:44 PM
oh, I'm not a teacher, I take classes in 8 step.

I read an article that Brenden Lai died. Is this true?

MantisifuFW
12-19-2002, 07:55 PM
Yes it is.

Tainan Mantis
12-19-2002, 09:24 PM
Does anyone have the life dates of Li Sanjian?

Hseng Hsiao's earliest book was written in 1762. The Lohan Gung manuscript.

MantisifuFW,
I thought the gap between Li Sanjian and Hseng Hsiao was too great for them too have had a master/disciple relation.
But I have not read any 7* lineage that puts another master between the two.

Also, if you say that Wang Lang was at fighting age during the Ming/Ching transition of 1624.
Then we have a hard time connecting him to Hseng Hsiao if you also want to connect Hseng Hsiao to Li Sanjian.

Acording to some tradition an old master will sign his name as a disciple of his master.
So, instead of saying Shrfu Chen(for example) he may sign as Wang(Lang) Shrfu disciple Chen.
Just a hypothesis.

mantis108
12-19-2002, 10:03 PM
Hi Sifu Cottrell,

First and foremost, thanks for sharing your insight into the matter. It has lots of foods for thoughts for us all.

<<<Both the history of Meihua, which relies upon the Nameless Outlaw and the Qixing history, which for the most part does not, have great problems if one reads them as objective accounts. Neither version is unassailable from a factual standpoint. The problem today is that there is, in the West, a growing movement of practitioners who try to present their version of the story as objective history to validate some presumed superiority or higher degree of legitimacy. >>>

I hear you about what seems to be the agenda that pragues the effort in bringing the real history concerning the evolution of Praying Mantis. It is not hard to understand those who are for or against such claims. IMHO it is about market share. frankly, I think the market is big enough to accept all kinds of real and practical Kung Fu.

<<<In actuality, the mainlanders of both Meihua and Qixing look upon the story as legend and not as fact.>>>

The severed lack of documentation, which partly is the attempt to "guarding the secrets", forced people to accept legend as the best possible explanation of their origin. We also know that history like Kung Fu is a matter of perception. It depends on the story teller. A truely objective history of origin is very rare.

<<<The same kind of thing went on for many years between WHF and CCM Hong Kong mantis and it accomplished little other than creating great enmity between the clans that still exists today for many.>>>

It is rather unfortunate that negativity shadows over a great art. However, there is still time to mend the fences and put things back on course. All we have to do is not to quit trying.

Best regards

Mantis108

mantis_seeker
12-19-2002, 10:55 PM
Hi all,


Does anyone have the life dates of Li Sanjian?
Tainan I only have the date of birth for Wang Rong Sheng from the mantis cave. It says he was born in 1854, I think. It also says Li San Jian met Wang Rong Sheng when he was 60. So if Wang Rong Sheng was 20 at the time then Li San Jian was born around 1810. The further in part in ages between Li San Jian and Wang Rong Sheng the earlier it gets. Lets say Li San Jian was 70 when he met Wang at 10. Then Li San Jian was born around 1790.

I have to clarify and apologize to 7* people. I mistakely assumed that an outlaw was there because of the dates. The only thing I have seen was on Zhong Lian Bao lineage where he justs post no existing record between Li San Jian and Shen Xio Dao Ren. So I jumped the gun and apologize.

My intent was not on the historical truth of a nameless outlaw, but why include one in your history? Can we see this as an indication of what the old masters thought? By the 1700's the manchu's had captured a lot of land. The largest China has been since that point. This posed a problem because they did not have the infrastructure to support the 300 million people back then. Hence a lot of bandit gangs arose. This also is when most secret societies were active.

Now kung fu schools usually carry a bad rep with chinese from Hong Kong ( I will only speak of HK people's attitude since I have lived there and my parents are both from HK). Kung fu schools needed to register with the local police in order to have a school. This is in part due to the Triads who started as a polical organization but ended up in crime. These political groups often did martial arts and recruited from martial artists and students. In New York chinatown in the early 1980's this was still the case that gangs recruited from some kung fu schools. I am not aware of the situation now.

Ofcourse this is a question no one can answer with absolute certainty. Just as nobody can really say with absolute certainty the history of PM. But I believe we are more than martial artists. We are inteligent human beings that are curious, sometimes to our own demise. We ask these questions because they make us think. It makes us more aware of our own beliefs. This is a good thing I think.

mantis_seeker

MantisifuFW
12-20-2002, 12:36 PM
Tainan Mantis,

I posted on reply earlier but it did not seem to get on the forum. I will try again.

Wang Lang is probablly a fictional character. There was a rebel leader Meng Xi who lived between early 1600-1700, (sorry for the inexact timeframe but to be honest that is how blurry it really is). Meng Xi is considered Wang Lang by the people in Qingdao and is a kind of folk hero.

To make matters more inexact, there is a sizable community of historians in China who hold to a Song dynasty origin for Wong Long and a 800-900 year break before Sheng Xiao Dao Ren found the mantis system on a forgotten scroll at Shaolin.

I have been to the Wong Long memorial on Lao Shan and spoke with visitors there, townsfolk on holiday, who told me several stories about the character we call Wong Long. I have also interviewed many Chinese martial artists, Meihua and Qixing and found they mostly considered any of the origin stories largely legend and not history.

Sheng Xiao Dao Ren is included by many as a link and an explaination as to how the system got to more historically verifiable characters as Li Bingshao (Meihau) and Li Kuaishou (Qixing). He really does not work in this role, as you have seen in your research, the timeframes are just too long.

So, an objective, historically verifiable timeframe just does not exist, no matter how many stories and legends we might try to fit together. Many of these legends were repeated in journals over the years and reported as fact but alas, there is no objective evidence for any of it. It is great for citing the history of a legend but not the history of the system.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell