Liokault, Repulsive Monkey and all UK Tai Chi players

[scotty1]

Could you tell me about your schools and styles?

Hopefully I will be studying tc in China soon, and I will be needing a Sifu when I return to England.

Are there many English schools where the martial aspect is fully covered, with sparring etc?

Are you familiar with Nigel Sutton and Dan Docherty, two people who I have recently read the books of?

Thanks

Scott

[Repulsive Monkey]

If you've read Dan's book then its ask Liokault because thats where his lineage comes from. I have opinions on Dan which I have expressed already in here (and others), to which I feel he teaches a good standard in fighting arts and his students are a good testament to it, they regular do well in UK championships (and ones abroad), however I feel he dosn't really teach Taichi, I would surmise that what he teaches is an external Taichi or at best a Kung-fu. My understanding is that Dan is not an internalist in the sense of using, cultivating and manipulating Qi, however his fighting skills are good.
Nigel Sutton I believe has roots back into the Cheng Man Ching tradition and Yang style. I have heard nothing but good things about him.

Through my master our schools lineage goes straight through one of Cheng Man Chings senior Taiwanese disciples who got a full transmission. My teacher has also studied under 2 more other prominent masters whose lineages absorb into the direct lineage of the masters Prof. Yao Huanzhi and Tian Zhao ling.
Although, my teachers master Dr Chi Chiang-tao was a disciple of Cheng Man Ching, he also studied with a student of Yang Ban Huo's aswell as a famous Chen stylist who was a general in the Chinese Army.

[ripat]

Hi!

My name is Mattias and I practice PTCC in Sweden (Linköping). Dan Docherty is our teacher, he comes to Sweden some times each year and gives seminars.

I can only say that this is the tai chi I have always wanted to practice. It's great.

If you have read Dans books and still are interested why not give it a try?

BTW. Which books did you read? Complete TCC? Instant Tao?

/Mattias
LPTCC: http://wudangryd.8m.com

[dz]

... du vet inte vad du har gett dig in på. ;)
du kommer nog snart bli varse, dock. :D

[Walter Joyce]

Might I suggest Wang Hai Jun in Manchester?

[ripat]

dz: :-)

[stormmountain]

You can teach perfectly good Tai Chi and never talk about Chi.

[Repulsive Monkey]

you don't have to use the word Qi, but I feel to teach correctly you have to use something that doesn't deviate from the genuine principles of Tai Chi. Ultimately I cannot see how genuine Tai Chi is being taught without any reference to it. Plus I don't see why one would want to enshroud the principles of qi in teaching TaiChi, I mean its hardly offensive is it?

[Liokault]

Hi Scott 1


Tai Chi that covers all martial aspects in the UK......Well that only really leaves Dan.

Repulsive monkey feels Dan is not teaching Tai Chi but is teaching a hard style!!! Im my opinion this is because RM is doing a style that is now acepted as "Tai Chi". sadly this is the very wide spread hippy version that every one knows and loves:mad: .

Dans Tai Chi is with out any hippy leanings is practicle and more than anything else is a whole system with nothing left out and no mumbo jumbo to fill in gaps.


Now Dan has ruffeld lots of feathers in the CMA community. He is not scarred of insulting a guy he sees as a fraud no matter what his standing is. as such there are lots of people who try to run him down. Also I have got to say that I have met lots of RMs tai chi parteners and i an less than impressed. If you go to HERE (http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/)

and go to the mag articles section then (if i have rememberd the names right) you can read about a run in between Dan and one of the guys RM respects so much.


I will say that if you decide to train in Dans style then you may be better training with one of Dans (many around london) students as I find his classes (in cobent garden) very loud and with students who are very hard to get on with.

Now as for Dan not talking about Qi or Chi.......its not the fact that he wont talk about it its more that he wont tell you that what you are doing is based on chi or that chi is whats doing all the work.....its you doing the work not some mystical energy.

Also Dan has a habit (or used to....dont think he does it anymore) or challanging teachers who say that they can use empty force or Chi to manipulate others.




Sorry if this post has turned into a rant against RM but I really do feel that RM and people like him are damaging Tai Chi. Dan and Dans students are like a light house in the fog of hippy wishy washy sudo mystical crap that is going by the name of (and is sadly commonly seen as) tai Chi.



Also Dan, Dans teacher and Dans students have all produced good fighters.....for the street and in full contact comps.

[stormmountain]

Liokault, I don't live in the UK, so I can't speak for all the particulars, but I definately agree with your overall sentiment.
Yang Lu Chan and all the other old masters DID fight. If they were around today, the modern Tai Chi community would consider them totall rogues. Of course, as usual, styles who complain about others not doing true TCC usually can't fight, which is sad because fighting skill is the bottom line of TCC (although not everything, it is the bottom line!)
Let's talk about what is really going on, body mechanics.

RM, no disrespect to you, I respect Chen Man Ching's lineage (I have a very good friend with decent skills who is learning from one of his students in Taiwan). However, I sincerely feel that it wouldn't hurt if the TCC community were more accepting of those wishing to treat it as a martial art, as a matter of fact, I feel that martially oriented TCC usually produces teachers who better understand the health side.

That being said, there is a tendency that I have notice for TCC people to say "that's not real TCC" about anyone who doesn't do it their way. Seriously, I think no group of Martial Artists trash talk each other behind the other's back more than TCC people do.

I was talking with my Sifu and this ultra liberal guy was complaining about how TCC need some kind of liscensing board to certify people so their wouldn't be so many bad instructors, and I said there already is a method, it's called "fighting", and my sifu just solemnly shook his head in agreement.

[Walter Joyce]

Yeah, what he said.

[Kuanti]

In the UK there governing boards, such as the Tai Chi Union, where recognised teachers can register. But so many of the public have this hippy view of TCC, that just about anyone can start a class in which you float about slowly and get away with calling it TCC. TCC really needs a bit of a PR job done on it.

As for Scooty1's question, ask the guys you train with in China who they recommend, otherwise you'll have to start over again if you change styles. Plus they may know people that don't run class etc.

Dans style isn't the only one in the UK training TCC as a martial art, nor is it the only winning full contact comps.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Just 2 things Tai Chi Union of Great Briatin is complied mostly, but exclusivley of arse lickers FACT. I rate Dan Docherty highlt as far as fighting and Kung Fu is concerned , I have no problem with that. However Liokault, I fell you are very much unjustified to link me up with the hiipy 60's brigade of the watered down Tai Chi ethic which permeates thru Europe and mostly thru the US. I am most certainlt not of that ilk but I do feel that Dan's style is Tai Chi minus the Qi aspect. Is that trully a bad thing to say??? I think he is a consumate martial artist, but I have proof that my teacher is exactly the same even though he uses what would appear to more qi orientated methods than Dan. The only reason I support this view is that my training has afforded me the opportunity to use these methods on the street more than just a few times to secure my own safe-guard. Fair enough if you feel that my Taichi is hippy B*lls*hit. However all I can say is that only 3 months ago my hippy bullsh*t managed to placate a situation where me and my girlfriend managed to walk away from 3 members of the public who tried to mug us in Bristol city centre. None of them touched my girlfriend and I walked away untouched whilst the 3 assailants where on their backs on the floor.
I have no problem whatsoever if you want call it hippy-watered down-soft-as-****e-taichi-dancing but it is hust that which kerbed a dodgy situation fall9ng into a serious infringment of my and my girlfriends personal safety.

Regardles of what I may of infered towards your teacher, I apologise if it seems harsh however I do have a lot of respect for Dan. Please realise that opinion is not cast iron and as ever it just remains an OPIONI.

Happy Xmas Liokault and hope to further this discussion in the new year.

Heres a big hippy peace yo you.

[Colin]

Have you decided on which style of TCC you intend to practice while in China?
I have a couple of good contacts in Chen style here in London, plus there are one or two excellent Yang style Sifu that focus strongly on practical application.

Or you could come and join my
"Fluffy Cloud Tai Chi". This is where we all wear really lovely silk suits & practice the yang short form to whale music. Plus we don't like to use the term "Tai Chi Chuan", as the Chuan bit makes it sound a bit too rough!
:rolleyes:

Anyway I wish you luck in your training in China.
Cheers
Colin............

[scotty1]

Scooty1, I like that:)

First off, thanks everyone for making this a good thread.

"As for Scooty1's question, ask the guys you train with in China who they recommend, otherwise you'll have to start over again if you change styles. Plus they may know people that don't run class etc."

That is a brilliant idea. Especially the last part, hadn't thought of that.

I haven't chosen a style, as I don't know what will be available. I'll go with the (chi) flow. Ha ha.

Unfortunately, Manchester is the wrong end of the country from me. I'm in the South, Hants and W.Sussex, dunno where I'll be when I get back, but London isn't really practical. Southampton, Portsmouth, Brighton etc. would be better.

I read Complete Tai Chi. I really like Dan's writing style, and his no-nonsense approach. It obviously yields results.

Anyway, thanks everyone.

[ripat]

> I read Complete Tai Chi. I really like Dan's writing style,
> and his no-nonsense approach. It obviously yields results.


Yes, I think it's a very good book. If you liked it you'll probably like "Instant tao" too. It's sort of an illustrated and explaining version of the TCC classics TCC Lun and TCC Ching.

[scholar]

Wu style in general is a practical, no nonsense style of T'ai Chi Ch'uan. It does Docherty credit that he doesn't go on much about ch'i. The theory being - why talk about it before the student can do any significant work with it? It takes years of dedicated training to start to notice, much less safely circulate, actual, martially effective ch'i. Many instructors confuse metabolic heat with ch'i, and while that heat is a primary ingredient, it isn't the real deal, not yet.
To finally notice the ch'i produced by orthodox training is a very unique experience, and one that can't be adequately described to someone who hasn't experienced it. If the student can't objectively touch, taste, feel or smell what the instructor is talking about, then that student is set up to become unnecessarily frustrated and the instructor runs the risk of seeming just another T'ai Cheeee blowhard.
"We'll talk about it later, it's good for you, but right now work on the alignment in that last posture some more."

[Prairie]

Scholar:

Great way to put it! :)

[scotty1]

Good post Scholar.

[Liokault]

hey guys.



Ok maybe i came across as a bit agressive but in rhe spirite of the season marry christmas to you all.....yes especialy you repulsive monkey.


If your going to train anywher near london or brighton then Dan's Tai Chi is going to be cnveniant for you scooty.........Look it up onn the web site,


Ok repulsive monkey even though i disagree with yo

ur tai chi I did at least enjoy the 2 comps that your organisarion hald (that i came to).


Ok ok im drunk so Merry christmas to you all.

[scotty1]

There are two instructors in Brighton and one on Portsmouth!

My day is made:) and merry christmas

[scotty1]

How long have you been training under Dan's syllabus? How long did it take you to feel fairly confident about it with regard to self defense?

[Liokault]

Hi


Been training now for somthing like 13-14 years with one of Dans students .


As for how long it took me to feel that my training had an impact on my ability to "street fight" or to defend my self then thats hard to say.

Also it will depend apon your teacher as even though the style is the same the way its taught can be totaly differant. For example my teacher will make every one wrestle from day one....weather they have been taught any wrestling or not. So from day one you are put into win/lose situations. .....most all of the training is like that so u tend to learn fast or get hurt alot. Best example is how ofton new guys get sweped during the first lesson and how little they get sweped during their second lesson (if they come back).



If you are going to train in Tai Chi (and i dont know any of the 3 teachers near you so can not comment) you need to make it clear what you want out of it then make it clear to the teacher ........or you will just end up learning what he wants to teach.....and teachers are infanatly variable in quality.

[scotty1]

Thanks for the advice.

That sort of approach sounds great.

I've have just mailed the admins of his website to ask of he can recommend any teachers in the city I'm going to be in in China.
(I've booked my tickets, going on the 13th January!!)

I can't find his address on the site, and I know he's travelled China pretty extensively.

[Andrew]

Two things were in china are you going Scotty1 ? Secondly
where are the Chen contacts you have in London, Colin?

Andrew

[scotty1]

I'm going to Wenzhou, on the 13th Jan if I get my visa!