uh-oh....political...

[@PLUGO]

click here... (http://dubyadubyadubya.com/)

[Laughing Cow]

Been covered on another KFO thread.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought.

[Chang Style Novice]

I already posted that one, and it set off the LAST thread of abuse and overstatement©

Which is really funny, because I think it's an altogether moderate bit of propaganda©

[rogue]

Wow was that deep!:o

Hang on my left leaning friends, the festivities will be starting real soon. ;)

[red5angel]

:rolleyes: seen it.

You know what my personal big issue is with all this crap lately criticizing the US, especially these guys on some of these forums, like this one? It's not the criticizing in general, because no one is 100% happy with what they have. My problem is that most of the complaints are narrow minded and apply to just about any other country that has does or ever will exist.

Until we have no borders, and no racism, and complete tolerance of religion, getting along just isn't going to happen. The best anyone can do is try to get along when possible and try to fix the damage they do when they can't.

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by red5angel
My problem is that most of the complaints are narrow minded and apply to just about any other country that has does or ever will exist.
Most of the complaints do tend to be really focused into one
particular thing, but that one thing is usually part of a larger
problem. It's usually necessary to sift through the dogmatic
accusations and see where the problems actually lie (and often
dogmatic accusations are based on a grain of truth).

It's good to work against what we see wrong with our respective
nations. It's what that whole freedom concept is based on, as I'm
sure you know. But just because other countries are/have been
making the same mistake (or even other mistakes) does not
excuse our country for its mistakes.

[red5angel]

MarshDrifter, of course, I am not denying that the complaints aren't valid, but that they are made invalid when someone states them as if there were no others who have and are making the same mistakes. For example, as an american, I wonder if we should be spending so much money outside the country on helping people when we seem to have a problem here within our own borders. But I am also smart enough to know that other countries have exactly the same problem.
Another good example is nuclear arms. We have them, and others have them, and most of those are as responsible as anyone can reasonably expect. People complain about american foreign policy but on this but what if someone get's them that shouldn't. For instance N. Korea, they seem pretty capable of making the wrong choice if they had them. Iraq, and other countries who are trying to get them. Can we sit around and let the little guys get these things without first making sure the people on top of those countries are reasonable people?

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by red5angel
For example, as an american, I wonder if we should be spending so much money outside the country on helping people when we seem to have a problem here within our own borders.

Part of this, I think, is where different people place emphasis on
a different level of cultural identity than others. What is the most
important level? For you, it could be Minneapolis, Minnesota, the
US, at a human level, or encompassing all of life. I sit around the
human level where borders really don't dictate any importance of
need or compassion. OTOH, how those dollars used for
"helping" others, may not be utilized in the best manner. I think
it could come down to who you help the most. You can easily send
money to help people in another country, but you can also
volunteer time and effort for more local causes.


Another good example is nuclear arms. We have them, and others have them, and most of those are as responsible as anyone can reasonably expect. People complain about american foreign policy but on this but what if someone get's them that shouldn't.
Like... anybody? :-) Seriously, nobody should have these things.
It'd be nice if we could uninvent them, although with
hydrogenated oils. In the nineties, it seemed as if our gov't
sort of regretted ever getting these things, but also admited they
were a necessary evil. It would be nice if we could convince others
that the burden of moral responsibilities involved with having
nukes in our hip pocket wasn't a good thing. Still their response
would always be, "well sure, but you have them."


For instance N. Korea, they seem pretty capable of making the wrong choice if they had them. Iraq, and other countries who are trying to get them. Can we sit around and let the little guys get these things without first making sure the people on top of those countries are reasonable people?
Those are some hard decisions and I certainly don't have any
answers towards that. I always felt that, as evil as N. Korea may
or may not be, they were smart enough to actually not use their
bombs. Of course, the dire situation they've been in lately
(drought, etc.) has pretty much reached the point of desperation
where they either start making peace or they start lobbing
bombs (not necessarily nukes). Needless to say, with this view of
mine, I was pretty distressed to see Bush cancel the peace talks
that Clinton had been working on.

As for Iraq, I'm a little more worried about the biological stuff with
them. They already have that stuff, we sold it to them.

I think with nukes, the best path to take is to de-emphasize
nuke technology for anything, starting with power. You'll note that
N. Korea started up their plant again under the (justifiable?)
excuse of needing power. If we could come up with new sources
of power to replace the nukes and the oil, it would prevent a lot
of problems (or at least excuses and accusations).

[red5angel]

I agree that there are many ways to help others, and that money can be sometimes used to greater effect, we are human beings and waste and spillage is a natural part of who we are.

As for Nukes, of course, no one should have them, but they are here to stay. I look at it this way, no one should have guns either, but they do, and because of that the police have to carry them as well. We can use our tools for "good" as a deterance to others in more ways then one, or we can use them for evil. While I have a common faith in man, I believe that men can be evil and so can the governments they create. I don't think it would take much for one to use a nuclear weapon. Consider religious fanatics.....