Forgive me-political, off topic, but important

[KC Elbows]

I put this in another thread, but it really deserves its own thread. Please read the article. It sure sounds like innocents are being interred in California. It's supposed to occur nationwide, whatever it is.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=us&cat=immigration

[Dark Knight]

This is an example of when Ben Franklin said Those who will give up a freedom for a security dont deserve eigther.

We have to decide for the protction of our country how much we freedom we can take from people. Is this right to do? Its understandable that the government is trying to protect us, but at what cost.

[KC Elbows]

Were germans interred in WWII on a large scale, or do we reserve that for those a little tanner?

[Radhnoti]

From the article:
"INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes. " So...the INS claims they are just doing their job.

But, I do agree that it's unlikely that someone in a terrorist cell would have voluntarily come in to register as these folks chose to do.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
From the article:
"INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes. " So...the INS claims they are just doing their job.

But, I do agree that it's unlikely that someone in a terrorist cell would have voluntarily come in to register as these folks chose to do.

No, it's incredibly unlikely. It's highly unlikely that any of these people with any real criminal offense came in to register. Somone on another forum said that the only criminal offense most of these people had was to miss monday's deadline for registering their race(trying to find the BBC article this came from). I would have missed it too.

Remember, that's a quote by a spokesman for an organization doing something rather shady, the sort of thing we apologize for after the war(ask the japanese-americans from WWII). Spokesmen are not generally good sources of info.

[Mokujin]

I'm confused. I'm sure the ACLU and others are quick to draw the similarities between this and Jews in concentration camps and Japanese internment camps, but I'm not so sure.

It looks like a sensationalized story with more emotion than content

Are these folks true citizens? According to the article, they were breaking a law: "...program that requires all males over 16 from a list of 20 Arab or Middle East countries, who do not have permanent resident status in the United States, to register with U.S. immigration authorities."

They had a deadline and didn't register- so they're in violation. They broke the law and got busted. They're NOT American citizens.

Let me know if I'm missing anything.

PS- No, it's unlikely Osama would have shown up, but there are families that might be tied to terrorists who have not come forward to fess up.

-Mokujin

[red5angel]

I think Germans were interred as well KC but remember, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and the backlash was putting Japanese-Americans in camps. I am not making excuses by any means, just telling you what I know.

I was reading an article on cnn about Iraq. Anyway, you know what really ****es me off about this whole thing? Let's go to war, let's trash Saddams regime so Iraq can't support terrorism, but let's not spend 6 FREAKIN MONTHS ADVERTISING IT SO THEY CAN GET DUG IN!!!!!!!!!!
I blame the UN for the untold number of deaths accrued over the war that is inevitable because we gave them time to get dug in good and deep.


Also, just to underline Mokujins point, we send Mexican immigrants back to Mexico all the time who are here illegally, we probbaly did it to quite a few non-US citizens, I know 2 Canadians who were deported for god sakes! I think this is mostly sensationalism.

[dnc101]

On the surface, this looks like an over reaction by our government. But I wouldn't fly off the handle yet. It did say that only those who were in violation of the law were detained- others were released or never arrested. And, of those in custody, some may yet be released. Their best assurance of fair treatment is that we as citizens speak up and demand it without accusing INS of filling concentration camps with dark skined people- yet. If that is found to be the case, then we definately should demand change.

By the way, I've dealt with INS, and they hold a very COLD spot in my heart- the _______s.

[dezhen2001]

sensationalism and propaganda lead to people being forced to make harsh decisions (to fulfil the expectation)... imo

Islamic community leaders said many of the detainees had been living, working and paying taxes in the United States for five or 10 years, and had families here.

The Iranian protesters said many of those detained were victims of official delays in processing visa and green card requests.

**** paperwork huh? :mad:

But on that level, what about the Muslims like me who convert? The example of the sniper guy was a good one - he was a revert to Islam... does that mean soon ALL Muslims will have to register? :rolleyes:

dawood

[dezhen2001]

but remember, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and the backlash was putting Japanese-Americans in camps.

so? many for eg. okinawan americans faught in the war on the american side as well...

It did say that only those who were in violation of the law were detained- others were released or never arrested. And, of those in custody, some may yet be released.

yup, a clear headed post :) hopefully many people will be released because of the paperwork issue and because they are actually here legally. students for example and others are also said to have been detained.

dawood

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Mokujin
I'm confused. I'm sure the ACLU and others are quick to draw the similarities between this and Jews in concentration camps and Japanese internment camps, but I'm not so sure.

Not talking about Japanese camps, talking about american camps where japanese-americans were held. Not death camps, rude poorly thought out camps.


It looks like a sensationalized story with more emotion than content


Sometimes sensational things happen. Notice them happening a lot lately?


Are these folks true citizens?

They're not being deported, they are being imprisoned, EDIT- I suppose I shouldn't use the word interred yet, but if this is to happen nationwide, those are some massive numbers of people held prisoner yet having no known ties to terrorism.


According to the article, they were breaking a law: "...program that requires all males over 16 from a list of 20 Arab or Middle East countries, who do not have permanent resident status in the United States, to register with U.S. immigration authorities."

They had a deadline and didn't register- so they're in violation. They broke the law and got busted. They're NOT American citizens.

Let me know if I'm missing anything.

Yes, you are missing quite a bit. Many of those people came in to register when they were arrested.


PS- No, it's unlikely Osama would have shown up, but there are families that might be tied to terrorists who have not come forward to fess up.

-Mokujin

Osama? Might? No one with ties to terorism would come in to be printed, period. These people will be your neighbors in ten years. Assuming they decide to stay after this.

[KC Elbows]

And again, I haven't read the word deported in that article.

[Mokujin]

KC Elbows-

1- My mistake for not being more clear- I meant camps in America where Japanese-Americans (citizens) were being held. So far, I don't see a comparison.

2- I thinks it news- but not as sensational as the ACLU want us to believe.

3- They were past the deadline, period. I had an expired TX inspection sticker which I got ticketed for. I was going to get around to it later in the week (honest), but the police officer didn't care. I still got a ticket because I was in violation of the law. Same applies here. Everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions.

4- I have no doubt these people will stay. It's better than the alternative.

But I will keep a close eye on the story as it develops. I know our government doesn't have the best track record for these things and I would prompt everyone to stay tuned.

-Mokujin

[Laughing Cow]

Rights and freedoms ONLY exist on Paper.
Apart from that they are an illusion used to pacifiy the masses.

Just my Opinion.

R5A.
You are right about giving warnings before attacking. Guess you Guys should have learned from Pearl Harbour.

Hit quick and minimise damage to own personnel.

Just look at the current Missile Shield, going up in 2 years and already announced as not being effective.

In short the USA is saying we got a weak spot so come and hit it.

Have fun all.

[dnc101]

dawood- figured to see you here, and glad you joined in.

The second quote in your last post was mine. I should add that we shouldn't expect INS to act too quickly. One, they never do when it comes to releasing people or allowing them to stay. And two, we do have to consider that they have a tough job here. If they let someone go and he later self destructs and kills someone in the process, we'll all be demanding some heads at INS. As little as I like them, we do have to be sensible and not overreact. But at the same time, we must be vigilant and demand fair treatment of these people. It is true that they aren't US citizens, and they don't enjoy the same rights as citizens, but that doesn't mean we should tolerate unfair or heavy handed treatment. Over reaction, by all parties, causes internal strife. This is one of the main goals of terrorism. To either automatically attack our government, or to condone unfair treatment of any one here, is to concede victory to terrorism.

[Stacey]

This makes me ill.

Just like "Drugs support terrorism" I'll push the bull****e button on this one. Drugs support hippies. Civil liberties shrinking.

Men faught and died to protect the freedoms we are giving up out of fear and cowardice. We allow our government to fly in the face of our values and the lessons that this country and the world has learned the hard way.

[Mokujin]

Cutt off your finger ill? Sorry, couldn't help it. :D

-Mokujin

[MonkeySlap Too]

Denzhen - why would be upset if all Muslims had to register? All non-muslims must register in Muslim countries, where they are abused in the name of religion and forced to pay higher taxes, why would you be oppossed to Muslims being treated like that where they are the minority. Oh, I forgot, it's only wrong if Westerners do it.

If YOU don't like being a dhimmi, why support dhimmitude in the Muslim world?

Frankly this story is disturbing, but this treatment tends to apply to all immigrants here illegally. Nothing to do with color. Ask the Irish or Germans or Brits. It is unfortunate that there probably people who are good, productive people who just didn't go about getting thier citizenship properly. I feel for them, but they are breaking the law. It is especially important that the situation in the middle east makes these peoople a quicker target. But hey, don't break the law if you don't want to be punished. Imagine how they would be treated in Iraq or Iran instead of here...

[Laughing Cow]

MonkeyslapToo.

From what I hear the ruling applies only to Citizens of 20 Countries mostly muslim nations.
And thus can be seen as racism and abusive of their rights.

From what I hear nationals of those 20 Countries are under EXTRA scrutiny as they are considered more dangerous and thus are treated differently than lets say a British or Russian person.

Naturally People overstaying their visas are in violation and should be deported.

Either way it happened.

Just my 0.2 cents worth of thought,

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
It is unfortunate that there probably people who are good, productive people who just didn't go about getting thier citizenship properly. I feel for them, but they are breaking the law.


INS might be breaking 50 laws through the force of it's ineptitude, which cause those people to be in violation. INS is a feeder organization for the Law industry, because most people can't get through it without hiring a lawyer. Consider also that alot of immigrants get bilked by their lawyers, so that's yet another barrier.

[fa_jing]

Actually, it is cross-racial. Half the workers at O'hare just got busted for lying about their immigration status to get jobs. Mostly of Mexican descent

[MonkeySlap Too]

Sure, these 20 countries are selected because the liklihood of terror cells coming from them is higher than say Belize. I don't see how that is racism. During the Soviet era, the Russians were watched closely. And as we knew they had entire villages training sleeper agents, it seemed prudent.

And it seems prudent now.

Of course we should take all reasonable measures to insure good people from those countries do not suffer unnessescarily, but it is still a prudent measure to identify illegal immigrants.

Is the INS incompetant? Duh. They need some serious fixing, but they cannot risk not doing thier job in the mean time. It is unfortunate if an innocent citizen get hurt by this, and there should be recourse. But even if a person is a good person, if they are here illegally, they are not a citizen, so they have no right to be here. That is the law.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Yeah, a lot ofd Mexicans do get a bum rap. But here is a very non-PC problem. If you can read Spanish you will find that there are large Mexican political movements in this country called 'La Raza' or 'the race'. Thier purpose is to outpopulate white people and reclaim the land for the 'race'. This movement is huge, and just as rascist as the KKK. Yet you NEVER hear about them in the English language media?

Why? I think Americans have been too filled with knee jerk self loathing to think they have any right to stand up to injustice done against them.

But keep in mind, that I am NOT suggesting that gives us any right to commit unjustices to others. AND - while 'La Raza' sees things in terms of race, when I say Americans, I mean Americans. Not just people of one ethnicity.

You can be questioning and firm at the same time. We should all try it before we drown ourselves in self-contempt.

[MonkeySlap Too]

And speaking of knee-jerk, I am well aware that that the only country to screw the Mexicans more than Mexico has been the U.S.

But it's a new generation and we can choose how we want to live - in a pluarlistic, contemporary secular society - were all can be themselves and live peacefully.

But we need to work at it. All of us. As Americans.

[Xebsball]

tu madre, cabron

[dnc101]

Originally posted by Stacey
This makes me ill....Men faught and died to protect the freedoms we are giving up out of fear and cowardice. We allow our government to fly in the face of our values and the lessons that this country and the world has learned the hard way.

Dang, Stacey, you are getting ill all over KFO- weren't you just ill when you replied to me on another thread? There, one of the reasons you were ill was that you didn't want the nasty old military to call you up and interfere with your fun by sending you to fight a war. I said it there, and I'll say it again here- you have no shame and no respect for those who "fought and died" for your freedoms. Don't profane the memory of those men with your brand of 'courage'! Is it courage to sit and criticize your country for responding when we are attacked? Do you think those men died to allow you to hide at home while others bear the burden of protecting you? Is wringing your hands and wailing what you call courage? You pittiful pond scum! If you come on a martial artsforum and spout this garbage, don't expect to be treated with respect. You have no respect for those who've earned it, you'll get none from me!

[Stacey]

DC101

We were attacked by religious nuts, we are attacking a secular rich oil nation with no direct connection.

I will suffer the title of coward if it means that I am not part of murder and imperialistic warfare of a dictator.

We are hunting for a reason and we will go in anyways. This goes past logic and is steeped in cowardice. People like you are so scared that they allow Bush to take our rights and kill our friends in other nations.

I have full respect for my grandfather and my forefathers that lived and died in the making of this country.

But blind patriotism is for week minded followers who don't have the inner conviction to follow their beleifs.

Unless you an an egoist and find the golden rule immoral, I don't see how you can follow this nut case.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by Stacey
DC101...Unless you an an egoist and find the golden rule immoral, I don't see how you can follow this nut case.

Your post speaks for itself, and I see no reason to reply. Any one with any snse can see through your bs, especially as it is the same old regurgitated arguments that have already been dealt with. Circular arguments are a waste of time.

I will say that I don't "follow" Pres. Bush. Anyone famoliar with my posts can tell you I'm one of the main advocates of questioning our government. That is how it was meant to be, and one of the things that sets us apart in the world is that we have not just the privilage, or even right, but the responsibility to do so. But questioning does not mean automatically assuming we are wrong, or somehow responsible for whatever happens. You come on here and wring your hands and wail about everything wrong in the world, and it's automatically our fault. That isn't questioning, it's assuming. It is self blame. It is xenocentrism, which is an unhealthy mental state.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
I suppose I shouldn't use the word interred yet,

Actually, you shouldn't use it at all, since it means "buried", not "imprisoned". You're thinking of "interned".

[Stacey]

I see.

How is it our responsability to get into other people's affairs for our own financial benefit?

Isn't this called manifest destiny?

I think China will be interested in Iraq when they have as many cars as we do.

[rogue]

Could be a little strong arming to get American Muslims (or Muslims in America) to get with the program. Could be a shot across the bow to let Muslims know that they better pick where their allegience is.

Then again it could be the INS finally doing their job.;)

[Sharky]

I say burn all arabs and muslims. Then everyone will be happy.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Sharky
I say burn all arabs and muslims. Then everyone will be happy.

Maybe we should also let england sink below the waves.

:D :D :D

[Sharky]

Whatever America thinks best.

[dezhen2001]

hi dnc101 :)

sorry my "d@mn paperwork" comment was trying to lighten the mood a little bit but i guess it didnt work? :confused:

Things need to be done, agreed, and hopefully things will be done in a humane and correct way. Its hard with all the hysteria recently, but i trust the people involved will do the right thing :)

-----------------------

MS2: why sh|t on me and say all that just because im the only active Muslim here? :mad: like i said to you in my last post im a CONVERT to islam - 100% Scottish and NEVER been to a middle eastern country. So all this talk of oppression etc. is NOT my fault! :rolleyes: I explained clearly in the last thread you attacked ME in the point of view from the Quran, thats all i can do. Im not a president or ruler of a country - heck i know next to nothing about politics. i didnt even know there was such a word as "dhimmitude" :(:D

I agree that if people are here illegaly then whoever deals with that should come down on then harshly. BUT as Laughing Cow said, this is specific to countries in the Middle East or predominantly Muslim. So thats why the link between this treatment and the 'camps' of the American Japanese was drawn.

I already told you in the other thread my stance on this, i made it very clear. So why attack ME specifically again? :rolleyes:

this is the last (hopefully) i plan to say on this as im not getting pulled in to a pretty argument over whos d|ck is bigger again.

dawood

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Sharky
Whatever America thinks best.

Wrong continent, maybe we should add them to the sinking too.

Canada of course will be saved.
;)

[Sharky]

Dave, i think it's beause he is an utter dickgobbler

[Sharky]

America knows best. After all, we did appoint them world leaders, didn't we.

Didn't we?

[Serpent]

I say kill every fukker and let the dolphins have a shot at running the place.

[Sharky]

And I have the biggest dick, so no arguing is necessary.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Serpent
I say kill every fukker and let the dolphins have a shot at running the place.

WRONG.

Kill everyone, except the good looking sexy women who need to serve my every whim and beckon.

Time to start the new master race.
:cool: :D :cool:

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by FatherDog


Actually, you shouldn't use it at all, since it means "buried", not "imprisoned". You're thinking of "interned".


Hehehe. Color me stupid.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow


WRONG.

Kill everyone, except the good looking sexy women who need to serve my every whim and beckon.

Time to start the new master race.
:cool: :D :cool:

What's the point in saving the women? You'd be dead too.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Serpent

What's the point in saving the women? You'd be dead too.

Hmmm. valid point.

Don't kill me, don't kill me.
:D :D

[Serpent]

You won't be singled out. All or nothing, you know.

;)

[Sharky]

It's settled then.

[KC Elbows]

First off, the assumption seems to be going on here that all of these people had expired visas because of their own actions, whereas there seems to be some cases where the INS is at fault for delays in the paperwork.

Second, the assumption is that, once Iraq is assimilated, that all these people will be okay? Or do we have further plans in the middle east?

These people represent a large number of the middle eastern countries. If they aren't okay because they are from said countries, how many invasions are we planning? Or does Iraq pay for all of the terrorism going on in the middle east, despite our inability to demonstrate as much?

Will we be invading Pakistan, since we actually know terrorists train there? I guess maybe after we invade people we aren't allied with.:rolleyes:

[Sharky]

I think where you're going wrong mate, is you're trying to rationalise things.

[dezhen2001]

KC im in shock... for once i ACTUALLY think you are SANE :eek::)

dawood

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
Hehehe. Color me stupid.

I already have. It's a dull, uninteresting tan. :D



...anyway... most, if not all, of the 9/11 terrorists were here under expired visas, something made possible because the INS is... well... lazy and incompetent and underfunded, for the most part. The INS took a major ass-chewing on that from the government. Now they're overreacting in the other direction, so they can say "Look! Look! We're doing our jobs! See!"

Never ascribe to conspiracy what can be easily explained by bureaucratic inter-office politics.

Which is not to say it's not unfortunate, but comparing this to the Japanese internment camps is a bit premature.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Sharky
I think where you're going wrong mate, is you're trying to rationalise things.

Ain't that the truth.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Sharky
I think where you're going wrong mate, is you're trying to rationalise things.

You're probably right.


Originally posted by Dezhen2001
"KC im in shock... for once i ACTUALLY think you are SANE

You're probably wrong.


Originally posted by FatherDog
Never ascribe to conspiracy what can be easily explained by bureaucratic inter-office politics.

Don't you think it unlikely that the department would take a course that involves suddenly imprisoning likely innocent people nationwide without letting the administration know about it, especially considering the incredibly high likelihood that the news would get involved?

I prefer my conspiracy theory to yours. :D Especially considering we are going into a major war situation, and people are often rounded up before major war situations for no other reason than they speak the enemy's language.

I might point out that CNN devoted more time to report on digital technology last night. Go team.

[ZIM]

The INS was recently broke into 2 agencies under the Homeland Security [Ja, Herr Kommandant!] Act. Now they've 2 missions- 1 controls immigration & US citizenship issues, the other controls policing borders & keeping out drugs/terrorists/etc. They always did, BTW- now its more rigorously separated

So, now we'll know where to point fingers...

Re: invading Iraq- needs to happen, sorry (http://www.meforum.org/article/9) . Same with going after more terrorists. There's some anxiety/whatever about the US being the cops of the world and all...other countries can join the fight any time they want. Silence= approval, inaction= no place at the table, do-nothing criticism= destruction of morals/morale.
The West has a different standard for the Arab Middle East than it does for the rest of the world. It's not a healthy thing, & instead shows a kind of disdain. Arabs need to be judged by the same standards as everyone else.

I'm not saying that the UK [example] needs to send in troops. Europe has been sending in peacekeepers for a long time, and we very much thank you all for your parts in the Gulf War. Maybe we need to acknowledge that more often.

Getting on board with investigations and informing your populace [and OURS] is what I'm asking for, on an ongoing basis.

Re: abusing our freedoms. I remember that Hamas was initially formed in Indiana, and that the "independent" strand of militant Islam [philipinos, etc.] met in Dallas at least twice during Bush I's reign. These persons abused our hospitality so we all pay for it

[KC Elbows]

invading Iraq- needs to happen, sorry.

Well, since you told me so, I guess that's cleared up.:rolleyes:


There's some anxiety/whatever about the US being the cops of the world and all.

Some? And, wouldn't you say there's a bit of conflict of interest? Seeing as the US has more interests in a middle east that serves US interests than it does in a middle east that serves its own interests?


Silence= approval.

I believe that's the next proposal for elections in Florida.


inaction= no place at the table.

I wonder how well you'll like it when another nation is the one setting the table.


do-nothing criticism= destruction of morals/morale..

Morality and morale rarely meet. What about 'do-something criticism'? Oh sorry, didn't mean to introduce shades of gray.


Getting on board with investigations and informing your populace [and OURS] is what I'm asking for, on an ongoing basis.

Informing them of what, US expectations of free countries?


Re: abusing our freedoms. I remember that Hamas was initially formed in Indiana, and that the "independent" strand of militant Islam [philipinos, etc.] met in Dallas at least twice during Bush I's reign. These persons abused our hospitality so we all pay for it.

I'm sure the residents of Dallas are rather annoyed with the number of times freedom has been assaulted in their city. On the bright side, at least this time it wasn't americans. Oh, sorry, an american. Little slip there.:D :p :D

[KC Elbows]

I find it amusing that those who most believe in locking people up in order to ensure avoidance of spy rings in a war situation are most cowardly about saying that's what is happening. And that those same people talk all sorts about fighting for freedom, but ignore when it is suspended as long as it isn't suspended for them. And that those people want all other governments 'transparent', but don't walk the talk.


I remind you, our constitution does not propose a right to freedom of all US citizens, but all people. When we, as a people, curtail the freedom of others, we stand against that. Sometimes, such actions are necessary. There, I had the courage to state that. Why can't those actually curtaining said freedoms? It is very important that we recognize tyranny when we must make use of it, or we will lose sight of our principles, and become tyrants.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Hey Dezhen, I am not shlttlng on you - I'm just asking you the same questions I would ask a Communist during the soviet era. It is written in your holy texts that this is how you treat minorities. It is dressed up all fancy and nice, but the practice is horrible.

I don't understand how or why anyone would join a group that does this. I ask all my Muslim friends this, as I hope to spark some action. To say you have no responsibility is just like all the 'good' Germans who said they could not stand up to the Nazi's.

Please note, I am not attacking your faith, nor trying to get you to convert to any other. I am just asking the hard questions that most people are so morally crippled in the West that they won't dare to ask them.

I ask similar questions to my Christian and Jewish friends.

[Chang Style Novice]

War! Huh! Good God, y'all! What is it good for? Absolutely nothin', say it again! (http://www©web-light©nl/VISIE/extremedeformities©html)

[Ford Prefect]

Some? And, wouldn't you say there's a bit of conflict of interest? Seeing as the US has more interests in a middle east that serves US interests than it does in a middle east that serves its own interests?

The US has more interests in the Middle East? The US only imports 12-15% of its oil from the Middle East. Japan and Euros import far more and are far more dependent on the oil supply there. France and Russia have drilling contracts with Saddam which will make them rich if sanctions are ever lifted. Who are the two permanent members of the UN Security Council that are most opposed to action in Iraq? No coincedence there though. They are just acting on morals...

The sooner everybody realizes that US does the same thing as everybody else; the better. Everybody looks after its country's best interests. You will rarely see "countries" take stands because of morals or anything like that. When the international community does take a stand to ethnic cleansing or other human rights violations, who is usually leading the way?

[KC Elbows]

The US has more interests in the Middle East? The US only imports 12-15% of its oil from the Middle East.

I said more interest in a middle east that serves US interests than one that serves middle eastern interests, not more than other countries. As long as our goal is to have allies in the middle east who put us above their own people, we will have terrorists attacking us, regardless of what the french and russians are doing.


The sooner everybody realizes that US does the same thing as everybody else; the better. Everybody looks after its country's best interests. You will rarely see "countries" take stands because of morals or anything like that. When the international community does take a stand to ethnic cleansing or other human rights violations, who is usually leading the way?

Well, if we really want transparency of politics, perhaps we could demonstrate a little more by calling things like they are, instead of pretending this is just a routine roundup of illegal immigrants. Or do we just want to know what's in everyone else's arsenal? ;)

[dezhen2001]

Hi MS2, youre not ****ting on me? could have fooled me mate. :(

in the last thread i posted information about Jiyzah and how it should be implimented with reference to what the Quran and Islam teaches us. I also posted many things about there being no difference based on race, and treating people from other faiths as friends.

Does this happen? No!

Right now i wanna get married to a gal i've really fallen for (and vice-versa). Shes really intelligent, smart and all the rest. But can i? No! Why? Because she is from an Arabic family and i'm from the UK. Not only that, but im a convert to Islam. Even though that Quran teaches us a concept of Brotherhood with all men/woman, especially between Muslims.

Now, how am i to look at this? Is it Islams fault? No! Everything is found in the Quran and is laid out in a methodical manner.

"And We created tribes among you so that you may know one another (not despise one another)..."

sounds pretty clear to me. Yet this is still happening. Now, if Islam says this, why are they doing something different? It can be many things: 1) because they dont understand Quran 2) because of cultural influence 3) because of tradition... or perhaps a combination of all 3.

The difference between what you describe is also the fact that someone is in control and has some kind of power and/or control over the people.

Like i said i am not a politician, prime minister, warmonger or anything, i am just a Muslim. All i am concerned about is learning how to worship my God and follow what He says in the correct way. For sure if there is something wrong then i try to help as best i can. Every week i pay some money to the mosques collection (thought i can hardly afford it myself). Right now i think its going to Afghanistan to help build schools and supply teaching materials.

I have only been Muslim for a short while, and once i understand Quran more, maybe i can do more to help others and teach others what i know. That doesnt seem too unreasonable does it? I have no real cultural affliction so am not really biased in any way. I dont practise anything the Quran says is forbidden, and i dont follow any Hadith that seem dubious (in lineage/history) otherwise i wouldnt be listening to music or dancing for example. Such Extremism and the different Sects of Islam seem to be caused more by the Hadith than by what is in the Quran.

well i guess i am rambling, but i hope you get my point.

dawood

[Ford Prefect]

I said more interest in a middle east that serves US interests than one that serves middle eastern interests, not more than other countries. As long as our goal is to have allies in the middle east who put us above their own people, we will have terrorists attacking us, regardless of what the french and russians are doing

Right. That's what's happenning. Our allies are putting our needs in front of their peoples. If it wasn't for the US, the middle east would be filled with just governments and pacifists.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect


Right. That's what's happenning. Our allies are putting our needs in front of their peoples. If it wasn't for the US, the middle east would be filled with just governments and pacifists.

Was I a jerk to you? The correct answer is no.

Let me reiterate. We tell Pakistan to arrest people. People get arrested. Other people in the region see whose the boss, and so, when they blow stuff up, they blow american stuff up.

Another version.

We find people who will take soviets and flense them. We support those people. Those people get some power, because they are backed, and they make life miserable for other people, because people who flense people aren't generally pleasant people. The miserable people rise up, and ask 'who's to blame?' Someone points at us.

I'm not saying the middle east is a paradise, I'm saying we're making it worse, not better. No good government will rise out of the middle east that serves primarily american interests.

[ZIM]

I've posted previously very much along the lines of what you'd said. I'm quite aware of the double-dealings going on within our government and the mess we've created and continue to create. I hold nothing against you or your POV & offer my respect and do hope that you'll return the favor.

Problem is, as I see it currently, the terrorists are not acting so much for political or religious reasons anymore, but becoming more of a professional cadre devoid of any particular standpoint. Ramzi Yousef [example], the original 1993 bomber of the WTC, was non-religious and carried business cards advertising himself as an 'International Terrorist". OBL is not much different from this. I do support finding them, if nothing else, before we start seeing suicide bombers on US streets. This should be seen rightly as a police matter.

I'm not about calling for full-scale war on all muslims or anything. I am saying that Saddam is a destabilizing influence in the region and we are being invited by opposition Iraqis to do something. I happen to agree with them. As I wrote, holding muslims to different set of standards from the rest of the world is disdainful, whether those standards are higher or lower.

do-something criticism is exactly what I'm asking for- glad you picked up on it.

[KC Elbows]

Zim,
Good post. I can agree, in those contexts. If we are invading because he is a destabilizing force is understandable. It's when we create conspiracy theories connecting Bin Laden and hussein in order to sell the war that I start rolling my eyes. They have nothing they can give us, so they may as well not bother.


Didn't notice the link in your original post, it made me think of a hypothetical.


Assuming hussein is taken out of power, and we find the perfect regime, the dream regime. They take over, their people love them, stability comes, and the Dream Regime develops a nuclear program. We tell them no, they say 'you don't govern us'. What do you think the american response should be?

[ZIM]

Assuming hussein is taken out of power, and we find the perfect regime, the dream regime. They take over, their people love them, stability comes, and the Dream Regime develops a nuclear program. We tell them no, they say 'you don't govern us'. What do you think the american response should be?

Goood question. Not one I'm capable of answering, really, but maybe give some initial comment to? Then I'll give it more thought.

Pakistan is a nuclear power, and supposedly as near as perfect a regime we could want [as far as US interests go, apologies to India]. Yet, they were in line for a military coup to take place not longer than 10 years previous, by high ranking hardline muslim officers. Benazir Bhutto, the 2-time PM for that nation, was told to her face that plots against her life were forming, this by the plotters- who were free at the time. Thats cojones for you. If this had occured, OBL would be nuke-armed by now.

[on edit: Baluchistan, the area Ramzi Yousef came from, is a border region in Pakistan. Theres some evidence he also met with one of the OK City bombers in the phillipines, teaching this person about making explosives.]

The lesson I'm drawing is this: every nation has its problems, some very scary to our interests. We have to trust that political process works IF the conditions for it working is in place. Personally, I've no truck with self-government.

[ZIM]

Still giving this question more thought. Currently I'm looking at whether economics or politics are the most direct route to peace in the mid-east. Now, we obviously won't be solving it on a kung fu forum [at least I think thats what this is LOL] but we can consider these, no? :D

Historically, wealth does not prevent war. WWI and WWII occurred amongst the wealthiest nations & the Iran-Iraq war happened during an economic upswing, and so, I feel, giving more aid or endeavoring to increase middle classes and general wealth- while a laudable thing in itself- is no guarantee against war. I note also that during the Afgan-Soviet war, Saudi princes were going there, as if on hunting expeditions, because they could afford to- thus creating OBL, in a way. I think the same would keep occurring.

Conversely, Democracies hardly ever go to war with each other. They do, of course, but it is fairly rare. This could be because there's more restraints put on the leaders, I guess.

The question is: does wealth increase the likelihood of democracy to occur? Then, can we trust the process to not vote in a nutcase? I don't think we always can, but hopefully the government, as set up, can provide means to counterweight the leader.

This is, I think, a main reason why the US is so closely scrutinized- with all this power, if we get a loon in office it spells trouble for all.

Is anyone else humming "I'm so bored of the USA" by the Clash? Sometimes its a bit much....'but what can I do?' :D

[guohuen]

To answer an earlier question. No. Germans were not interred during WWll. Being the largest immigrant group in the U.S. that would not have been possible. Racism probably had a role in that decision also.

[Ford Prefect]

Broaden your knowledge and broaden your perspective.

There are many things that an article in the paper or on the internet can't possibly delve into. Its always apparent when somebody hasn't done much research beyond the basic sources. Spend some more time reading. I'm sure your opinion will change many times over as you become more informed.

[KC Elbows]

Ford,

I've just deleted the post that sums up my actual thoughts of your last two posts. Do not be rude to people who have not done anything wrong to you, and then hand out corny advice that you cannot back up in the next post just so you can feel like the great and powerful Oz.

Everyone else,
I've spoken with a number of muslim groups across the country this last weekend. I have yet to hear of any similar occurences. Locally, I'm working on getting some contacts within the muslim community to write an article about the pressures of discrimination and fundamentalism within the US muslim community. Dezhen, if you read this, I will probably be PM'ing you as well with some questions, late next month. I'm still working on speaking with someone useful from the INS. Of course, I did all of this without the need to be told the limitations of print mediums, or that I should read a book. :p :D

For those who care about such things, a story of mine was purchased this weekend. Once it's up, I'll post a link, and you can all tell Ford you read this month.

[dezhen2001]

KC: cool PM me whenever u want... im not very knoweledgeable but if i can help u in any way let me know :)

dawood

[Ford Prefect]

I wasn't being rude, I was being sarcastic. I appologize if I offended you as that wasn't my intention. The advice was sincere, and I'm sorry that you took it any other way. While I applaud your passion for the subject, it seems to cloud your perceptions a little, so I was just hoping that you'd do more research yourself.

I didn't bother debating any points because nobody's mind is ever changed by these silly online debates, and I feel sorry for the individual who actually is swayed by some anonymous persona on the internet. This is doubly so where politics and religions are concerned.