structural alignment

[ninjaboy]

hello all.....

something to ponder over the holidays:

i have a question about a cat stance. more specifically, regarding the
relationship between the femur and the toes of what i will call 'the support
leg' (ie. the leg that bears most of the weight).

some stylists seem to prefer keeping the femur of the support leg 'in line'
with the toes, as in like how they line up when we walk....
on the other hand, however, some stylists seem to prefer turning the knee of
their support leg in towards their center so that, from a bird's eye view,
the knee is not 'in line' with the toes. the knee and the foot point in
distinctly different directions.

i am curious to hear what your opinions are regarding the pros and cons of
either way and the rationale behind it for stability, mobility, power
generation, etc...

i hope i'm painting a clear picture of what i'm asking about but if my
question is unclear in any way, please let me know and i'll either reword it
or provide pics to help illustrate my curiosity.

sincerely,
ninjaboy

[SaMantis]

Hmm ...

(getting odd looks from the other cubicles as I try out the cat stance)

Well it seems that keeping the knee in line with the toes provides the most stability and relative flexibility as this allows you to lower the stance quite a bit and come back up with less risk of injury.

Turning the support leg in also provides stability (and perhaps protects from a kick to the inside of the knee or stops a groin strike) but there's much less flexibility, you have to stay high. To turn the leg inward requires that you turn the hips until they are square on with your target rather than presenting an angular profile to the attacker (20-40 degrees angle). Plus, the stance feels off-balance to me.

Which is right? Dunno. In my system the support knee is kept in line, but that doesn't mean the second method is wrong if the practicioner knows the stance's strengths and limitations. All I know for sure is don't let the knee turn OUTward in that stance.

:)

[HuangKaiVun]

I've pondered this one before, ninjaboy.

As far as my current thinking on this issue goes, I'll suggest that that a person has to be able to block - or give - or evade - an incoming attack.

Just don't let your sparring partner knock you over.

[ursa major]

Hey Mantis brother great to hear from you.

Hmmm ... I'm trying your examples...

In yet another example some practitioners (systems) I've seen turn the lead leg itself (cat stance) so that it is angled off center (eg: 30 degrees out to left or right) so that it appears as a bow-stance (hill/mountain climbing) with a partially withdrawn lead leg -- more of a crouching stance. I've seen this 'style' in many of my old Hung-Gar drawings/lithographs and have since concluded that angling off the leg itself in this fashion is either stylizing the stance or an attempt at improving stability for a lower than 'usual' cat stance (in typical Hung-Gar fashion). The latter explanation makes sense in that it is easier to react when both legs are more uniformly loaded. Of course one cannot help but wonder if this does not defeat the intent and purpose of the cat stance hence I do not favour this method.

Standing here at my desk trying your example one and example two, it would seem most beneficial to maintain a free weight lead leg as well as frontal orientation (your 1st example) in a cat stance. IMO this leaves the 'hanging leg' frontally oriented and unimpeded by any concerns other than it's ability to flex, kick or step quickly.

In example two, angling the toe and thereby the lower leg, inwards towards the center line, demands that you re-direct the leg should you decide to flex or advance directly ahead. Now I'll have to try this with some sparring but right now while I consider it I don't like it because of the redirect and the fact that the lower leg will be in a state of 'flex' rather than 'free'. The former will IMO reduce reaction time and efficiency while in comparison latter will improve reaction time and efficiency. I do not think the potential defensive benefit (protecting the tibia, etc) of this example outweighs the movement penalty.

Have a nice day,
UM.

[mantis_seeker]

Hi ursa major,

I gather from your other posts that you practice both Hung Gar and mantis. When you spar do you mainly use Hung Gar or mantis?

I don't personally like to fight out of a cat stance and perfer monkey stance or a modified yup wan bo. I was taught most of the stances in mantis like horse and cat are transitional stances and are usually not used as a fighting posture just to deliver the technique. Do you also practice mantis this way?

Thanks
mantis_seeker

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

In my opinion it's comfort level. But I may be wrong. Sometimes you can get lost going too deep in analyzing things.

I've noticed that people fall into 2 categories. One group is comfortable with toes in and the other with toes out. The toe-in group has a tendency to align knee and toe and the toe-out group is comfortable with the knee inside the toe. Anyone who has taught basic stances to beginners has probably noticed this. Watch the Hill Climbing Stance and see where their back foot is pointing naturally. Watch how people stand naturally and see if their feet point forward or out to the sides.

Personally I think comfort level is more important than imitating someone else cookie-cutter style. I'm in the toe-in group and if I try copying the stance of a toe-out person it's painful. I believe that's why some of the Tai Chi students have trouble with Low Single Whip.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantis_seeker
Hi ursa major,

I gather from your other posts that you practice both Hung Gar and mantis. When you spar do you mainly use Hung Gar or mantis?

I don't personally like to fight out of a cat stance and perfer monkey stance or a modified yup wan bo. I was taught most of the stances in mantis like horse and cat are transitional stances and are usually not used as a fighting posture just to deliver the technique. Do you also practice mantis this way?

Thanks
mantis_seeker

Hello mantis_seeker thank-you for your post.

Yes I do practice Hung-Gar and for the last several years I have been practicing 7 Star as well.

My boxing is pretty much pot-luck surprise (grin). Although I favour 7 Star methods above all -- I have after all spent many more years studying 5 Animals and 5 Elements.

When I spar I don't consciously think of my stances. I would have to say that I frequent the monkey or middle stance the most probably because it is the most relaxed ?

have a nice day,
UM.

[SaMantis]

Hua Lin,

I hadn't noticed that before -- I'm one of those students who have trouble with low Single Whip, and I'm also a toe-out person in cat stance.

That's something for me to investigate when I practice Tai Chi tonight. :)

[yu shan]

Can see how there are injury`s to the knee area with improper alignment of knee to toe and navel...think about it!