Manifesting Energies

[MaFuYee]

can you manifest the 8 energies of tai chi while doing the form?

i don't think so.

others say yes.

what do you think, and why?

[count]

How can you not manifest 8 energies and 5 directions in a classical tai chi form? A better question would be can you menifest them in a fight?

[count]

Now that I have read your debate with TaiChiBob, I think I understand your question better? :p I still stand by my reply.:cool:

[MaFuYee]

song of 8 postures (http://yangtcc.com/classics5.html)

The Song of Lieh
What is the meaning of Lieh energy?
It revolves like a spinning disc.
If something is thrown onto it,
it will immediately be cast more than ten feet away.

"lieh" translates to "pull-down"

in application, when using the pull-down technique, you pivot on your front leg, while the rear leg circles back. - this is the circular footwork that is employed in applying the pull-down technique. - hence the explanation, "it revolves like a spinning disc."

- in the "form", there is no circular footwork used, when performing 'pull-down'.


The Song of Lu
What is the meaning of Lu energy?
Entice the opponent toward you by allowing him to advance,
lightly and nimbly follow his incoming force
without disconnecting and without resisting.

- how can you lightly and nimbly follow incoming force, when there is none?


* lets say a tai chi "expert" is doing push hands with someone much larger and heavier than himself; if his opponent does not "give" him energy, will the expert be able to ward-off the larger and heavier person, using tai chi? (meaning, not having to resort to just using muscular strength.)

- in case you don't know, if the oponent is not giving energy, the expert will only be able to push him a little way. (maybe a step or two). - but, if given energy to work with, he will be able to use that to overextend the oponent, and sail him much ****her.

it's all about body mechanics.


when a person assumes a pose, that does not mean that they are manifesting energy.

any first day tai chi student can learn to do the movement of 'ward-off', but that does not mean that they will be able to skillfully use it.

- if someone is doing the tai chi form, and you walk by, too close to him, as he is doing 'ward-off', and he makes contact with you, will you go flying 10 feet away? - of course not. because he isn't "manifesting the energy" - you cannot manifest the energies while doing the form. - the form is done slow, with no tension.

to ward someone off, you need to use speed, and some tension, along with the right body mechanics.


but still, you've been lazy. - you haven't even attempted to justify how you think anyone could be manifesting the energies while doing the form. (probably because you can't. - because it can't be done.)

[brassmonkey]

"manifest the energies while doing the form. - the form is done slow, with no tension."

maybe the way you practice, in my own I try to have changes in tension. Lets say a baseball player on deck practicing his swing or you can cal it baseball swing energy if you like maybe he wouldnt hit a home run with those donuts on the bat with the speed but its the same motion as his regular swing.

"to ward someone off, you need to use speed, and some tension, along with the right body mechanics."

you could have ward off not moving it and someone run into it and therefore you just warded them off without speed but that's just structure eh? You could go really slow and if a person happens to walk by at the same moment your warding off and they get caught and can't yield nor root well I'd say you just warded them off with hardly any speed, the amount of distance thrown out isnt always the goal, just to offbalance them for some schools would be a good start.


"but still, you've been lazy. - you haven't even attempted to justify how you think anyone could be manifesting the energies while doing the form. (probably because you can't. - because it can't be done.)"

Don't know why I bothered answering if you knew already:)

[taijiquan_student]

First of all, from what I know, peng isn't meant to make people go flying 10 feet away. If someone ran into your peng when you were doing the form, it would be like they were hiting a brick wall, or you would be such an incredible master that you would yeild to them falling on you and respond accordingly. Brassmonkey actually already explained this.

You don't need to use circular footwork to use pull-down. Why? Because split is the 8 basic movement that is like a spinning disc, not pull-down. Pull-down is likened to some kind of weighing device, I think. Tsai is pull-down, lieh is split.

If someone is pushing with someone much larger, and they are not giving him much energy, then they probably won't be in much danger anyway. Unless the large person is very skilled is administering a barage of organ-shaking short-energy pushes, in which case you're likely to be screwed even if he was giving you lots of energy.

In some sense Ma is right, but in a very obvious, "duh", kind of way. If there is no one hitting you, you certainly aren't warding them off. But that doesn't mean your arms aren't filled up with peng anyway.

[count]

I was just too busy training for 5 hours on a Saturday to debate the classics with you. I think most of what I would say about your interpretation of the songs has been addressed already. I would just add that if you step in front of someone doing their form with proper intent, they will just walk through you. It is not just about body mechanics. It is also about when and where you step to. It is also about intent. Neither of which have anything to do with your bodies physical structure.

I have always been taught to focus on good practice and basics. Forms are secondary. But if I am doing forms practice I try to feel the expansion of peng energy for example, inside and out. I try to focus Ji energy and concentrate it to that one spot and than bang hit with fajing full force. If you don't practice this way you won't even break a sweat. Your just moving your arms around in the air with no purpose. With out the proper focus and intent, with out the maximum tension and relaxation, not only will there be no power gain, but the health benefit is next to nothing.

Well, there you have my 2 cents worth. Back to practicing.;)

[count]

TTT for MaFuYee

Only, as you can see. it's 6:30 in the AM and I will be training all day. So don't think I'm too lazy to argue the classics with you.:p