finish your style.....then?

[Souljah]

Just wanted to know if any of you have plans on what to do once you finish/become sifu level of your current style.....
would you continue teaching the same style, learning more from your current teacher. Or go in search of a different style? (while still practicing the current style of course)

[Sho]

It's a bit difficult to answer that question at this very moment, but of course assumptions can be made. I'm definitely going to continue studying the "mastered system", but besides that, it would also be interesting to explore new styles. I had Hung Gar and Wing Chun in my mind to study besides my CLF after a certain master's degree, if there is such (there's always more to learn).

[Ging Mo Fighter]

either fight professionaly or make movies

:)

[Souljah]

seriously about the making movies?
how do you even get into that? start out stunt performing or somethin?

[SevenStar]

Finish? nah. I think one of the main things you learn over years of training is that you'll never know it all - you won't finish. That said, there is nothing wrong with training in another style if you so choose.

[Fu-Pow]

Just wanted to know if any of you have plans on what to do once you finish/become sifu level of your current style....

hahahahahahahaha...finish....hahahahahaha..

[buddhapalm]

I still dont know where to begin.

Buddhapalm

[cha kuen]

There's no such thing as finishing your style because the more you learn, the more you learn that you have a longer way to go.

It's like constanly stepping into a bigger sphere of what kung fu is about. It's as deep as on ocean. Unless you can get as good as the master's a few generations before you, there's no such thing as mastering your style.

However you can go outside of your style to learn a few things to compare. Keep one style for 10 years. After that you can try others for the heck of it, but still keeping your main style.

kung fu books (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=taichimaster06&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25)

[The Last Master]

I agree with Cha Kuen. Mastery of a kung fu style i believe is not possible, especially with todays lifestyle. Previous masters after a liftime of dedication to an art say to others that they are still discovering new things about it. Kung fu is an extremly deep disipline, inorder to become anything in a chosen style, you must integrate it into your lifestyle, and become engrossed in it fully. If you find kung fu easy, then your not training hard enough, by some means you will then later realise you kung fu is "empty" . Mastery of kung fu does not exist. My 2 cents.

[omarthefish]

I think some of the answers here are rather glib. I know it's very p.c. to say "there is no end" or "you only keep getting deeper and deeper" but there is some validity to the idea of "finishing" a style. You may not be an invincible master of gong-fu and have found 'the last dragon' catching bullets in your teeth but that's I dodge in most cases.

If you make gong-fu your life choice and train proffesionally, then you can learn an entire style. Sure there's more to learn out there but you could for instance, learn every set in your style have clear mastery of all the relevant jings and be a skilled fighter.

It's rare but it does exist. I've heard YC refer to how long it takes to 'master' Hung Gar. My current Sifu reffers to learning internal styles after 'mastering' Baji. You may not be the best in the world but a musician can master his instrument why is gong-fu so different. In fact, the mastery should be the requirement for the creation of new styles that happens every so often. Satchmo was as much a master as any gong-fu legend of the past.

[needlefist]

I agree with Omar,

Glib and to some extent politically correct.

Styles disappear once they are 'mastered', beginners and inexprienced practitioners mistake the acquisition of style as mastery, it isn't. A master transcends the form of his art, just as in the example Omar gives.

Its about individuals, and if it were not then everyone would be the same in the same style, and that never happens.

No one knows what standards held in the generations before those teaching those who are alive today, but speculation and opinions about them are part of the attachment to a pai, so they will always be found in plenty.

Attachment to a style is part of the life-span development process for a martial artist, it's strongest in neophytes who have to have some grounding in structure (system and social/cultural).

Middle-aged - experienced martial artists are usually at their most generative, and creative, and the older generations have settled into wisdom about themselves, and the truth that their chosen system(s) is just a vehicle for their life's journey of discovery into themselves.

It's appropriate that journeymen find the answer that reflects where they are now.

[Diamond Talons]

Good points N & O & this is the truth of the matter as I know it too. Mastery is a word & can mean many things & if a person means being very skillful in a hand then yes to end point & although skill becomes more smooth other things pass in time so there is balance & on the whole the highest level a person can get is where they will stay if they practice right through the years. Stupid television kung fu stuff to say never reach the end for fighting skill & old guys from way back not any better than best there is today & maybe not as good. They had more time is wrong & no such thing is going down to store to buy milk in 15 minutes & all things took more time to get done & people didn't have good health for as long as they do now so generations back being better is silly I think. All things that are good get better in time & all things that are bad get worser in time & this I think is fact & not opinion. If peoples are right that only old guys from way back were good then where else in this life can they show something like this & the answer is no place so old guys from way back being the best is nonsense I think & young guys coming up will be better than me.

[Buddha's Hand]

I'm not even halfway to the "finish line", and when I go back to practicing the foundation of my style, I figure out new stuff...

So IMO you don't need to go to another style to learn new stuff, but just observe the details of your own style and you will discover hidden applications.

Two Chinese sayings come to mind:

1) Under this sky, all martial arts are Shaolin's

2) Beware of a young man's fist, but beware of an old man's staff

Do you know what these two expressions mean? :D

[needlefist]

BH,

Your quotes are common enough, but, number one is far from the truth, even under 'China's' skies.

I am 'Shaolin', in background, both Northern and Southern, but I have no problem with the huge varaiety of non-Shaolin arts in China's rich heritage. Shaolin is not Mo-Shut, only a part of it. If you claim to be Shaolin, then remember the truth of that, otherwise you may cause offense to people inclined to teach you good manners. Ask your Si-Hing's or your Si-Fu.

As for your second quote, its simply to remind young people not to get inflated over the advantages of youth. Experience often (but not alaway) shows more readily with the use of weapons. An older generation master should not fear youths strength or speed, refined skill is a hallmark of mastery. Borrowed sound-bite 'quote' wisdom is the hallmark of youthful ignorance.

DT,

Let's hope so... there are some who will push the enevelope, but very few.

[guohuen]

Hehehehehehehehh..........Sorry, Fu-Pow got me started.

[HuangKaiVun]

I'm doing what my teacher told me to do:

learn as much as I can about OTHER styles.

[Fu-Pow]

As my Sifu says:

"Kung fu is an endless treasure, you keep digging and you will always find more."

[Diamond Talons]

Under the sky NOT all martial arts belong to Shaolin or even have any attachment to Shaolin BH & Hakka Tong Long sure don't trace anywhere back to Shaolin & just politics by groups that do trace to Shaolin. There was good fighting hands many life times before Buhddists even come to China it's not like we never fight or make good hands before Indian Monk come to China okay. More right to say under the sky all Shaolin belongs to India but that might start politics so I say enough on this thing. Okay FP I now understand what you mean when you say no finish point & the way I understand you're saying it I agree with your opinion of this thing & same holds for artists in other things too I think.

[Buddha's Hand]

Originally posted by needlefist
BH,

Your quotes are common enough, but, number one is far from the truth, even under 'China's' skies.

I am 'Shaolin', in background, both Northern and Southern, but I have no problem with the huge varaiety of non-Shaolin arts in China's rich heritage. Shaolin is not Mo-Shut, only a part of it. If you claim to be Shaolin, then remember the truth of that, otherwise you may cause offense to people inclined to teach you good manners. Ask your Si-Hing's or your Si-Fu.


Well, 1st the quote isnt from me. 2nd I don't think the quote means that Shaolin "owns" all styles, as in "invented".

From what I understand, Shaolin Temple partly developed, partly integrated and partly perfected various arts that the monks came in contact with.

Add common sense to the mix, and the fact that humans all over the planet are wired the same way.

Now is it still possible to invent a new way, for example, to kick that hasnt been "invented" yet?

In that light, I think the quote is meant to be understood as Shaolin, having explored all possible ways of the human body to be used as a martial tool, all martial arts are synonymous with Shaolin.

There is no implication of superiority or ownership there I think.

:)

[needlefist]

BH,

I've heard many Chinese Si-Fu make the claim that all TCMA derive from Shaolin. These are invariably 'Shaolin' stylists of one kind or another. I've also seen the same teachers mocked and ridiculed by other Chinese Si-Fu who knew better. Your quote was not highlighted as personal in origin to you, far from it, its a common enough myth amongst many Shaolin stylists.

To claim:

"In that light, I think the quote is meant to be understood as Shaolin, having explored all possible ways of the human body to be used as a martial tool, all martial arts are synonymous with Shaolin"

is at worst an attempt at mass appropriation of every other system or approach that is NOT Shaolin, or at best an appology for the attitude held in belief, that 'All Styles Come From Shaolin'.

Indeed, a lot of very competent Shaolin stylists would not want to claim some systems that pass as martial arts, as descending from their heritage

It might be better to say that all styles that claim Shaolin lineage 'claim' descent from Shaolin. The truth is much more complex with many 'Shaolin' systems being patriotic movements who adopted the Shaolin name in order to rouse support for anti-Manchu action. The name Shaolin was associated with patriotism in China centuries before the Manchu's conquered and overthrew the Ming. It was good politics to ally with a patriotic myth.

DT,

You rightly state that martial arts in China are much older than Buddhism (certainly than the Shaolin Ch'an sect). Shaolin is not the only Buddhist tradition in martial arts in China, which again gives lie to the claim that all styles come from Shaolin. Not even all Buddhist styles come from that/those temple(s) and not even from Ch'an Buddhism either.

[Diamond Talons]

NF I think it's just politics which kills more things than gives birth to & I don't understand BH reply but it don't matter as just opinion. Many great hands don't come from Shaolin & many really bad hands claim Shaolin so it is balanced for the political peoples who claim all is Shaolin & they get the bad too. Shaolin hands & I mean real Shaolin hands are good not a doubt & BH claims the saying means all ways covered by Shaolin Monks & this isn't right & nothing like Hakka Tong Long in Shaolin I ever see & I haven't seen all but I've seen some over the years. If Pak Mei story true & I think it's made up tale & Pak Mei Hung Mei fight all a story that never happen then some same types of ging in Shaolin hand maybe as in Hakka Tong Long but not exact in a lot of places. I know another hand claimed as Shaolin & it not Shaolin at all & saying it is is politics by PRC government & others. Credit where credit is due & leave politics out of art & everyone given a chance to be their best with their talents. Just my opinion & others say different but I don't argue with them. HKV your teacher a smart person & if more people take the time to learn about other hands & not try to learn hands just learn about then we would all get along better & respect differences & admire same things found in different hands. Too much fighting with words over style & the man put behind the style & I think this is wrong & it is man first then style so fighting words over style deny the man & this is the wrong way. Fact I think.

[Buddha's Hand]

Well, in any case, looks like I inadvertently started a troll, so please don't feed it :eek:

I don't think that Chinese sayings and proverbs were ever meant to be taken literally, given the demonstrated propensity of Chinese wisemen to mysticize and obfuscate, probably to make people think and reflect more. So it's obvious to me that all Chinese expressions have multiple levels of meaning.

Case in point: the Tao Te Ching.

Also I didn't mean to offend anyone, but IMO anyone who likes to get offended will usually find a way to become so.

Peace to all my MA brothers.

[Diamond Talons]

Good all things so clear for you BH & you're arrogant & no more speaking with you since you know everything & I'm just a stupid man who can't understand your so great wisdom & no problem as life will set your defect right.

[needlefist]

BH,

Muslim, Tibetan, Manchurian, Mongolian, Taoist, Hakka etc, none of these can really be said to be 'Shaolin'. even most of the systems that call themselves Shaolin are really derivative at best.

To be fully Shaolin, training would have to be 'Ch'an' in spirit and practice, and, there would have to be authentic unbroken transmission from Master to Master.

Such things are very rare.

It's reasonably common these days to find non-Shaolin and even non-Buddhisty arts using the 'Ming-Shall-Overcome-The Ching hand salute (in various forms) - which is associated by many with Shaolin, but, is really a political statement about Chinese patriotism against the Manchu's.

I would class my own learning in Bak-Siu-Lum and Hung-Gar as 'derivative' from a Shaolin Buddhist tradtion, rather than being a direct transmission in lineage from Bodhidharma (Da Mo) himself.

Without the essence of Ch'an practice how could it be otherwise?

'Shaolin' derived martial arts as a patriotic political movement, has its place in TCMA history and culture - that is good enough in itself. But, its a long way from making authentic claim that all styles come from Siu-Lum.

As for people taking offence, that's inevitable, as very few of us on internet forums ever meet and exchange anything remotely resembling a decent conversation with one another. Given how quickly many Chinese themselves lead by example in taking offence, then perhaps its no wonder.

[Brad]

Couldn't that first quote also mean that no matter what fighting style you practice, it's all the same at the highest levels?

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Diamond Talons
Good all things so clear for you BH & you're arrogant & no more speaking with you since you know everything & I'm just a stupid man who can't understand your so great wisdom & no problem as life will set your defect right.

All I can say is:

I really hope your joking.

Otherwise, what does it have to do with the topic?

Mastery?

What will you do after?

I plan to teach.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Diamond Talons
Good all things so clear for you BH & you're arrogant & no more speaking with you since you know everything & I'm just a stupid man who can't understand your so great wisdom & no problem as life will set your defect right.

I really really really hope you are joking. Otherwise . . . ? mei jiu. - hopeless.

What was the topic?

Mastry?

What will you do after?

I plan to teach.

[Diamond Talons]

OTF I not joking around & never joke about such stuff & what it relates to topic is BH saying one thing & that it's clear to him which means if others can't see it then they're not as good as him. What does your post have to do with topic OTF & why you butt in when noone talking to you & are you a troll?

[omarthefish]

DT,

I understand you take this stuff very seriously.

I felt you were veering off topic because originally this thread was: What do you plan to do after 'mastering' your current style?

When you say things such as...


Good all things so clear for you BH & you're arrogant & no more speaking with you since you know everything & I'm just a stupid man who can't understand your so great wisdom & no problem as life will set your defect right.

... you sound sarcastic and insulting. I think BH's views are reasonable, even if they are wrong. I don't think he was trying to imply he knows everything or that anyone who disagrees with him is just stupid.

Also, I have heard in gong-fu, it's better to be stupid and persistant than smart and lazy.

p.s
I am fascinated by some of your posts but find them difficult to understand. I assume english is not your native tongue. Are you Chinese? It's not really important, I'm just curious.

[Diamond Talons]

I don't say BH is wrong OTF as this is personal matter what I say is that saying that things clear to him means if others don't agree then it is cloudy to them & it is their shortcoming & not what BH says. You say you read my posts then ask my ethnic group how is this so & if you read my posts then you know the answer by what I say & what I say isn't important the only thing I'm doing is clearing way for young guys that want to do Internet stuff & old guys scared it's going to cause problems. Funny stuff as there are good people on forum & those that do politics & troll stuff are no problem as they are all cowards who box with their fingers on keyboard only so I say to old guys no problems just a mix of people some good & some full of crap. Hope it's true about stupid and keep at it as I'm a stupid man with not a real 6th grade education & had to stop school to help family with money things & noone has crossed hands with me & say I'm no good for years now. Okay OTF I try with BH again if he wants & posts some stuff I might know a little bit about okay.

[Mizong_Kid]

souljah......what style are you learning?

are you interested in gettin into the film side of kung fu...behind the scenes chroreography and stuff????


yuen wo-ping is the best.......he truly is amazing!

[Colin]

I think it is a fair question about finishing a style.

Of course we all hopefully can and will continue to practice and explore the systems we spend so many years learning.
However many people I think can get the feeling of stagnation within their chosen system, if for instance after learning all the forms, drills, weapons, jings etc, and practicing them to a competent level they are left only with continually honing the skills they have.
Many people are happy to continue practice, but an equal amount feel the need to explore other systems along side this practice.

So in answer to the question:
Having spent an amount of time learning my chosen style, I decided to look at other arts, not just to go learn them willy-nilly, because I already have skills in what I regard as an excellent system. But to explore other ways of doing things. To see why others have chosen their particular system, and most importantly to gain a far greater understanding of my primary style.

With a certain amount of skill in one style, surely this gives us the opportunity to be far more open minded and comfortable with the idea of exploring others.

Don't get me wrong here, I don't think dabbling in many styles is a good idea, but intelligent study of a second system can only be a good thing.

Personally again, I tried to find out as much as possible about several styles that seemed interesting. I then chose to begin study of Xing Yi Quan.
I find the Xing Yi complements and in many ways enhances the Lau Gar Kuen i've spent 15 years learning, so although I still have a long way to go before completing the Lau Gar system, (there are several weapons forms still to learn), I felt the time was right to tread a wider path.

My Xing Yi Sifu has Studied Chow Gar Tong Long for 30 years, and when we were discussing learning other systems he said that when the time is right you will know!

Merry Christmas!!
Colin..................

[Souljah]

In some styles sifus advise their students to learn another style other than their current one after mastery if not just to broaden their MA knowledge but in general and get a variation in teaching and allow them to explore the possibilities , as you said colin - "intelligent study of a second system can only be a good thing"
I agree totally.

mizong

I study a family kung fu system called rei - do not take the name as a sign of it being japanese as it is a basic translation my teacher made and each letter is just the first letter of a different word (sorry- so i should call it r.e.i)


soul

[Diamond Talons]

I don't know about study another style like in bai shi & stuff but it is best to test against hands not your own I think & for me no sense in becoming good against Hakka Tong Long only as we are a small group & not much chance of running into someone trying to fight me who is Hakka Tong Long. It is good to test against many many different hands & as many as I can find I test against when I was a young man & I think it helped me not become full of Hakka Tong Long only good stuff crap & miss out on all the good stuff around & made some friends too. Just for me it worked out okay I think.

[omarthefish]

DT,

I love your posts. I know you like to fight. It comes through without sounding like your bragging. I'm really sorry if you though the wuestion about ethnicity was insulting. I'm training in China right now, took the time to learn the language and am sure my Chinese sounds like crap to my Sifu.

I dropped out of college to go study this stuff and I'm still embarrased about not having my degree. I enjoy seeing unapologetic *******s out there roughing up the scholars.

Keep it up.

Feel free to tell me anytime you think I'm full of Sh!t.

°×ÀÖÎÄ

[Diamond Talons]

Hi OTF I'm glad you got to go where you wanted to learn what you study & I think a small break in school okay so long as you don't wake up one morning an old man like me with education still waiting & no more time for such things so I'm stuck with being stupid & it's my fault so I don't complain I just say what is. No problems asking who my people are but if a person say who are your people I say all people on the Earth is who they are & I never hear any religion person talk about God's Grandchildren so I think we're all children of God with noone better or worst for color or shape of eyes or stuff like that. Just for me it works best that way & I try to tell young guys to get away from Han center of all & enjoy the good we bring to the world and respect the good other peoples bring to the world too. Big place with room for all I think & this is what life has taught me so I say it just for me & tell young guys to think about it & maybe it's for them too.