Real Life:What would you have done?

[rogue]

I pulled this from my own thread about bizaar things...

New York Daily News
Sunday, December 22, 2002; Page A20


NEW YORK, Dec. 21 -- On a desolate fringe of a Queens, N.Y., park, a gang of homeless men set upon a woman and dragged her into their squalid encampment, raping her for two hours while police began a frantic search. The 42-year-old victim finally was rescued when a police dog picked up her scent, tracked her to the hobo jungle and sank his teeth into one of the men who brutalized her, authorities said.

"It is a horrendous crime," Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said as the five assailants were booked on kidnapping, robbery, rape and sodomy charges.

The attack occurred at 10 p.m. Thursday at Flushing Meadows-Corona Park, on a deserted pedestrian path linking Shea Stadium and the National Tennis Center.

Sitting on a bench, the woman and a male friend were jumped by a band of homeless men who beat and robbed them.

The mob then grabbed the woman and pulled her down a flight of stairs to a Long Island Rail Road platform, across the tracks and deep into the woods.

Amid the thick brush, the men had put up several shacks patched together from wood, cardboard and plastic -- described by one investigator as human "bird's nests."

The huts were filled with old mattresses and piles of garbage. They were so filthy that one policeman said he planned to throw out his shoes after stepping inside.

In one of the ramshackle shelters -- impossible to see from even a short distance -- the men took turns beating and raping the woman.

Her friend had raced off, found a passerby with a cell phone and called police, who quickly swarmed the park.

For two hours, police searched the sprawling grounds with dogs for a trace of the woman and her captors.

As police closed in, two of the suspects, Victor Cruz, 22, and Jose Hernandez, 18, ran out of the woods and were captured.

A 10-year-old German shepherd named Sean and his handler, Officer Kim Flechaus, were the first to reach the shack where the victim was held.

"It was awful. We couldn't find her, and then the dog went nuts," one investigator said.

The bloodied woman, naked from the waist down, apparently heard the cops and bolted. She told them one of her attackers was still inside.

The dog was sent in, and he ripped into suspect Louis Carmona, 20, authorities said. After a brief standoff, the dog then pulled Carlos Rodriguez, 22, and Jesus Torres, 28, from a second shanty nearby.

Three of the five suspects were treated at the hospital for dog bites.

When they were led out of the 110th Precinct stationhouse Friday night, they wore only hospital gowns because their clothes were seized for evidence. Shivering, they tried to cover their faces as they walked past.

The viciousness of the assault recalled the 1989 rape of a jogger in Central Park, which ended with the convictions of five teenagers being tossed out Thursday. Convicted rapist and killer Matias Reyes confessed to the crime.

"This is eerily similar to the whole Central Park thing," an NYPD source said. "Everyone is crossing the t's and dotting the i's to make sure history does not repeat itself."

The gang rape also bore similarities to a group attack on a Brooklyn woman last month in Lincoln Terrace Park in Crown Heights. Those assailants are still at large.



© 2002 The Washington Post Company

[SevenStar]

I definitely would NOT have done what that guy did - I would've tried to help get her away safely, even if I had to stay and fight them while she ran for help. Instead, he ran for help and left her there. Here's another write up about it that tells his side:

When five homeless men dragged a 42-year-old woman through Flushing Meadows-Corona Park, her companion thought he would never see her alive again.
"I thought they were going to kill her," the 38-year-old watch salesman told the Daily News last night.

The Washington Heights man, who asked that his name be withheld, described the terror of the attack and his desperate search for help.

It began when a gang surrounded him and a female friend as they headed to the Willets Point subway station.

"I knew something was going to happen. I told her to run," he said.

But before they could flee, the men knocked them to the ground and began kicking them. Then, a few of them started to haul off the woman.

The man said he felt helpless.

"I thought if I went where she was, they would kill me," he said. "I got up and started running away, looking for help."

Bleeding, he raced to the subway, but the token clerk didn't speak Spanish. Fortunately, a young man who did loaned him his cell phone to call 911.

They didn't wait for police but ran back to the attack scene to find his friend, "but they had already taken her away."

"I was desperately looking for her. But I didn't know where they took her," he said.

Within minutes, police arrived and launched a massive hunt for the woman - but by the time they found her, she had been gang-raped and beaten.

The man said she was distraught over her ordeal and "in no condition to talk."

Originally published on December 21, 2002

[Serpent]

I would have gone ballistic and started laying out all around me. But that's just me; I could easily have ended up broken and bleeding and unable to get the help the guy in the story did.

However, chances are that if I caused enough damage they may have decided to try for another victim. Pack animals tend to operate that way. I would have tried to spot the leader among them and taken him down hard first.

But all this is easy to say in the comfort of not being there, then.

What would you done, Rogue? ;)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Chances are I would have avoided the attack altogether by just being aware of the situation. This has worked well for me in the past. Yeaers ago, when I used to write comics for a living, I was headed to a rave party hosted by Roger Corman's studio. Two artists who worked with me, who were liabilities at best in a fight, were walking with me to the party. I spotted some guys on either side of the street converging on us. By spreading out and depriving them of a pefect 'close' - along with my grinning ear to ear (I used to love 'live practice') and walking right up to whom I sized up as the leader, all pretty much defused it.

That same night, that same street, someone from the comicon got robbed and stabbed. I can't gaurentee it was the same group, but there was trouble coming from those guys, and awareness helped defuse it.

Awareness is the best defense.

Secondly, if I was in the zone there like that couple in Queens, I would have responded like Seven said.

Seeing as I have an opposable thumb and am a tool-weilding animal, they may be surprised to find themselves in a knife fight. Although chances are it would start with a 'found' object - my coffee, a rock, you name it. By taking the fight to them first, I would have the element of surprise, giving me the opportunnity to saturate thier intention and destroy thier ability to function as a group.

Since I had an arguably defenseless woman with me, I would take Chang Dong Sheng's advice and show no mercy.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i would have just laid there and cried.

[red5angel]

All of the guys who did this were young, they could have been in enough shape to do some serious damage to someone who resisted.
Not that that would have stopped me form killing on of them.

[MightyB]

If you can't legally carry a gun, then pepper spray or mace. I also love those collapsable batons.

My personal recipe for streetfighting is pepper spray in the left hand, baton in the right.

A knife is a little too messy and brutal. Handguns are the best, but have the most legal issues.

It's bad to sit here on KFO spouting of "could've, would've, should'ves". Odds are, you and the woman "would've" ended up dead. As cowardly as it "seems" to be, the guy did the right thing. Dead men tell no tales, as they say.

One against a bunch is a fantasy without having an ace up your sleeve, and empty handed martial arts are not that "ace". Most martial artists, myself included, have more than we can handle against one real attacker, let alone five. Give me a baton and pepper spray, then the odds change drastically. The real trick is keeping hold of the weapon.

Monkey slap-- you're lucky that this little bit of machismo "- along with my grinning ear to ear (I used to love 'live practice') and walking right up to whom I sized up as the leader, all pretty much defused it." didn't get you killed.

[Cipher]

What a sad story. I hate hearing about this type of thing, it really saddens me.

I am glad to be able to read this kind of thing though because it helps me stay more aware and on edge of how dangerous things can be if your not careful. Thanks for posting it even for awareness alone it helps.

If the guy would have had a gun and know how to use it and had some training chances are they would be safe and a few bums would be dead. When you think about it the chances of five guys coming up and attacking you without you realizing something was happening are slim. I am sure he at least had an idea they were coming, maybe not what they were going to do but he could have prepaired in case something were to happen.

Oh-well, I just hope it never happens to me and my wife or friends, I would rather chase them down and die then to let that happen to a loved one.

MightyB,

I can see were your coming from but it depends a lot on the situation. As I said above if it is a loved one that is close to me then I don't care if there are 10 to fight if it helps them escape.

You made a good point about keeping a hold of a weapon, it is a lot easier to lose your grip on a weapon than a lot of people think.

Edit: Where the guys convicted? it says "When they were led out of the 110th Precinct stationhouse Friday night, they wore only hospital gowns because their clothes were seized for evidence. Shivering, they tried to cover their faces as they walked past." I would think it would be easy enough to convict them, they have their close, and they were at the scene so they had to know what was going on. If they were let lose then I hope their balls get frost bit and fall off and then they die of infection. If their guilty of course, that is up to our wonderful justice system to determine.

[SevenStar]

You're right, Mighty B - I probably would've ended up seriously hurt or dead. The thread though, is what would you have done, and I know that's what I would've done, because I've done it before. It was only one guy who I saw slam a woman down on concrete, but my reaction was the same - make sure she stays safe.

[Chang Style Novice]

I think the first thing I would've avoided was sitting on a bench in an isolated park late at night with both of our backs turned the same direction. Once the guys were coming on, I probably would've fought as hard as I could until it was too late for both of us. Might've been worse than what really happened, but knowing what was coming I probably wouldn't have been able to leave without giving my all.

[MightyB]

I do advocate intervening if you can. A lot of crap wouldn't happen if people acted like they gave a sh_t.

Years ago I read a self defense book that actually was good. It was written by a police officer/criminologist that went into major detail about a bunch of situations where people were murdered, raped, and whatever when there were people around who could've helped but chose to do nothing. It was a book that was more about awareness than technique. Wish I remembered the title. Confidence and common sense are two of the most major deterrants for crime. Criminals do look for easy prey.

Anyway, I once heard (maybe saw it on COPS) that police find domestic abuse calls to be some of the most dangerous that they can go on. This is because that usually the woman who is being beat or whatever will help her spouse/lover if you attack him, even if you were only intending to help her.

Dangerous stuff,

Carry batons, pepper spray, mace, whatever's legal in your area. Heck, I can only speculate, but I think that this situation in particular would have been deterred if the guy would have "snapped" out a two and a half foot steel rod and made himself look real dangerous when the attackers made there initial approach. He may have looked a little paranoid to the lady, but she'd been better off because of it.

Put Tactical Batons on your Christmas lists folks.

Peace out and all that jazz,

The B

[red5angel]

MightyB I have to disagree with you a little here. People feel safe in numbers but I have found that even in groups, often, if one shows enough will to not get hurt and to hurt your attackers then they will often give up. The group stuff I have seen usually at that point degenerates into name calling etc...
I do agree that the potential is higher then if it were one attacker but I am fighter and I would have fought, hard. Hopefully even buying time for the girl to get away, in my mind, her life for mine is a fair trade off.

[TkdWarrior]

really sad story ....
it reminded me of one of the incident here when one of medical student was raped by knife yielding guys(four of them) n then raped...
it just ****es me off to the utmost...
all those rapist should be put in boiling oil, or something like sloooww painful death...they don't hav any idea that the women/female will live a life which is already dead...

i dunno even if one hav pepper spray in hand how much it can save u...in the heat of situation it can get really nasty...n chance that u can't even use pepper spary...
-TkdWarrior-

[Royal Dragon]

I would have gone ballistic and started laying out all around me. But that's just me; I could easily have ended up broken and bleeding and unable to get the help the guy in the story did.

Reply]
Broken and bleeding?? They are destitiue homeless people, they couldn't have been in any kind of shape to defend against a highly athletic and pis.ssed off kung Fu expert.

Still, the victems were ovbiusly trained at Chung Moo Quan or something (Dig, dig dig), which brings us to the concealed carry issue.

One or two shots in the air would have dispersed them with no harm done to anyone. If not, and they escalated the situation, two more into the brains of the more agressive of the bunch would surely have eneded it as well.

I just hope the victem did not "pick up" anything she will not be able to get rid of. :(

[FatherDog]

I have never in my life gone anywhere on foot at night without at least 5 other people. Least of all to a deserted park. If I need to neck with someone privately, I'll use my car.

That said, I've also never visited New York without my folding baton, so in the unlikely event I wound up in said situation, I'd've probably grabbed her and ran like hell. I figure the gang of guys will probably be running at different speeds, so if the ones in the front are gaining on me, a quick turn on the heel, smack upside the head/knee with the baton, and immediately resume running might well be enough to get us to safety.

Of course, this is what I'd like to think I'd do. My reaction in an actual adrenaline-dump, tunnel-vision situation might be very different.

[Royal Dragon]

That is actually a really good tactic. Similar to what i might do.

When facing the crew, "Isolate, kill and run" In that order.

[Royal Dragon]

Hey, NOONE can legislate how hard your hands/fists can be, you are allowed to carry them ANYWHERE (except up the skirt of another man's wife :eek: ), so soak up that Jow boys, and start hitting them beans!!!!!!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
i dunno even if one hav pepper spray in hand how much it can save u...in the heat of situation it can get really nasty...n chance that u can't even use pepper spary...
-TkdWarrior-

Just like martial arts, you need to practice using it, and also, you can get the more fool proof type of spray - the foam. They have a pepper foam that foams up and spreads after it touches its target. Even if you miss his eyes and hit just below them, it will foam up and get in them anyway. That guy will be your opening - run past him. Of course, you may not be able to use it effectively, but any chance is far better than none.

[red5angel]

I odn't know about legislation in other states but here in minnesota carrying a baton of any sort, much less using it can get you in some serious trouble.
I went through this a few years ago because the local rennaissance festival I do secrurity and medical response for, made some of the security guys stop carrying them because of the legal liability.
Although personally I think it was a good choice anyway, too many people going to get themselves in trouble carrying those things around!

[rogue]

Interesting how most take the Sunnyday Scenerio. Put yourself in the guys shoes. For some reason you foqued up. Maybe they were hidden, maybe you saw them but thought your martial artist bass@ss vibe would scare them off but there you are in the same situation they were in, getting beaten and robbed. First shot was theirs?


What would you done, Rogue? I really don't know. I've been in one 5/4 on two and did OK, but that was with an ex-cop and when I was at my peak. I've defended my wife and myself several times but that was against drunks. My wife fought off one guy once by herself. With all that said I'm still trying to think through what would be the best thing to do and what I would have done. I have my rules for what to do with crime and number #1 is, crime scene one is always better than crime scene number two.
I think the guy did the best he could, and he would have been a second victim because that was his mindset. Still I think he did the best thing given what happened. I'd hope that my awareness was up, my blade was in my hand and we were moving towards a safe place. If I was surprised(which most trained martial artists never think about) my best hope would be to survive the initial attack and then hope to have enough wits left to think about the best option to do next, which might be fight, track them(at night this would be real fun) or run for help. Think about it, follow them into their playground or go get help that has guns and dogs?

[Royal Dragon]

Seven Star,
Your right on the $$ with the Pepper foam thing. I think the best part of it is the fact that it stiks to the attacker instead of getting caught on the wind and blowing back in your own face incapacitating you as well as the attacker. Regualr pepper spray has been known to do that.

Rogue,
I have sucsessfully fought of 5 on 1 before, but not skilled fighters. They were party animal burnout types. Still young enough to be strong, and not veteran homelss. So i see how I reacted then, and I know someone with a fighting disposition and some experiance can do it, BUT a homeless person will probably be armed with something sharp. Doubtful they can afford a real knife, but still anyone can lift as steak knife from somewhere like a relatives house, soup kitchen, or some such place.

Your right about the "Alertness" comment. Fighting skill means nothing if your aleady out cold.

Everyone,
If this guy had no fighting experiance, or skill he deffinately did the right thing.

Thoses of us who hang on THIS forum, would have been far more qualified to make a much stronger choice. Lets not forget what would WORK easliy for us, will get a regular civilian killed.

[rogue]

Let's toss out a few more ideas
1. I'd fight: That very well may give them the chance to take the woman. You're busy raining destruction on some of them while the rest grab the woman. Same if she ran.

2. I'd take out the leader and the rest would run: Could work against punks but these guys are homeless. Punks don't make good bums. Homeless are usually homeless because they are criminals, nuts or have lived enough hardship to not be scared of the leader going down. And who's to say they had a leader?

3. I'd follow them: Moving on unknown terrain in the dark while scared or mad is exciting to say the least.

4. I'd use my official bad@ss martial arts vibe so they wouldn't mess with me: Please see number 2. They've seen scarier stuff than most of us.

I think this one was as no-win as you could get and a great example to play what-if against. So far for every solution I've come up with there was an immediate downside that jumped right out at me.

[Water Dragon]

I ran this scenario in my head a few times. Me and my wife sitting on a park bench...

How could someone not fight? Like there's any other option. Sorry ya got gang-banged by a bunch of bums, honey, but I was afraid they would kill me. Buncha pu$$ies.

[rogue]

I ran this scenario in my head a few times. Me and my wife sitting on a park bench...
How could someone not fight? Like there's any other option. Sorry ya got gang-banged by a bunch of bums, honey, but I was afraid they would kill me. Buncha pu$$ies.

So you'd say that you could win. Have you thought under what circumstances would you lose? Losing meaning dead or might as well be dead. Let's say you fought, what would keep them from still grabbing your wife? How would you fight and still protect her? What if you lost, the crime is now unreported and instead of getting raped for 2 hours
she's theirs for however long they want to keep her around doing whatever they want. At best she's theirs for more than two hours at worst she ends up dead. So is fighting still the best option?

Would you be willing to sacrifice your self image for the best choice for her?

[MightyB]

I would fight, but, I would tend to avoid the situation in the first place. I think about it if it was my wife or a friend of mine, I'd have to fight, but, the site of me standing up and hearing the "kashink" of my two foot tactical baton while I stare right at them usually is enough. You might get a couple of comments about being loco from them, but fukem, they're bums, who cares what they think.

Here's something about batons, you have to be willing to kill them just as you would if it were a gun in your hand. Otherwise, it won't save you, you have to be intent on killing, not maiming, you don't have that option, but killing. Any hesitation on your part gets you five bums armed with a club.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Seven Star,
Your right on the $$ with the Pepper foam thing. I think the best part of it is the fact that it stiks to the attacker instead of getting caught on the wind and blowing back in your own face incapacitating you as well as the attacker. Regualr pepper spray has been known to do that.



I've had that happen to me before - it sucks. :( Luckily, it wasn't in an altercation. I bought some for my mom and was testing it out. after I sprayed it, the wind decided to pick up, and blew it right back into my face.

[Water Dragon]

I never said I would win. I said I would fight.

They could have just as easily found a corpse as a rape victim.

Sometimes you don't win. But you fight anyway. That's what being a man is about. At least where I come from.

I can't really see how this can be debateable..

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rogue


So you'd say that you could win. Have you thought under what circumstances would you lose? Losing meaning dead or might as well be dead. Let's say you fought, what would keep them from still grabbing your wife? How would you fight and still protect her? What if you lost, the crime is now unreported and instead of getting raped for 2 hours
she's theirs for however long they want to keep her around doing whatever they want. At best she's theirs for more than two hours at worst she ends up dead. So is fighting still the best option?

Would you be willing to sacrifice your self image for the best choice for her?

By fighting, she has a better chance to escape. If I fight three and two take off after her, she may be able to get away from those two. Even if I lose, she has a much better chance as the ones I was fighting now have to play catch up. If I was still conscious after losing, I would do what the guy did, then go looking for them.

In the event that I win against the three, then I can now go after the other two. reagardless of whether you win or lose, her overall chance of survival is increased if I fight.

[red5angel]

Rogue, WD is right, I don't know what these guys are going to do with my wife and I could live with myself better knowing I tried and failed then I ran and failed. To me it's not the end that is the point, this girl was "lucky" in that she did not get killed, but who knows and would you gamble that way with your loved ones life? Not me, better to die fighting then to attend my wifes funeral in shame.

I am with WD again in saying I don't think this is even debateable with me. The biggest reason I train in the martial arts is so if something like this happens I have a chance, because either way I am fighting.

[scotty1]

"Broken and bleeding?? They are destitiue homeless people, they couldn't have been in any kind of shape to defend against a highly athletic and pis.ssed off kung Fu expert."

Not all of us are expert. And we all know how many of us train full contact.
Substitute destitute for desperate and it changes the situation.

"I would fight, but, I would tend to avoid the situation in the first place. "

that goes without saying, but accidents happen, and bad situations crop up.

I personally would probably fight like a f*cking wild thing until I was dead or they let go of her, but like Rogue said, what if you're unconcious and they take her? You don't know where she is, you don't know where to search for her...

I think the logical "correct" answer is (if you're in a situation where you're gonna come off worse) to go get help.

But I would question (without being disrespectful to the guy) his attachment to her. The report sites him as "a male friend", therefore if he was thinking clearly he prob. thought

"****, I could end up unable to get help if I fight these guys, and help no-one. I'll be more use to her if I go get help"

But if it was my girlfriend, or any of you guys' wives, I'm sure logic would go out of the f*cking window and I would just tear into them until the situation was resolved that way.

[rogue]

By fighting, she has a better chance to escape. If I fight three and two take off after her, she may be able to get away from those two. Even if I lose, she has a much better chance as the ones I was fighting now have to play catch up. If I was still conscious after losing, I would do what the guy did, then go looking for them.
In the event that I win against the three, then I can now go after the other two. reagardless of whether you win or lose, her overall chance of survival is increased if I fight.

Right Sevenstar. It has nothing to do with how one feels or about being a wussie, it's a matter of increasing the odds of survival.

Strong’s four rules to follow:
React immediately – your best chance to escape violence and minimize injury is in the first few seconds.
Resist – your only alternative is to submit; both choices are lousy, but resisting gives you the best chance. [Fear the criminal’s control of you more than his threats.]
Crime scene #2 – always more isolated than the initial point of contact, and always worse for you.
Never, never give up – your attitude can keep you alive when you’re badly injured.

http://www.sanfordstrong.com

Now how would you fight to protect someone in this situation? Keep them close, separate or something else?

Good points Scotty. I believe in a situation like this the sport fighters stand the best chance.

[MonkeySlap Too]

There is no differencve between life and death in this situation. For your wife (and therefore your family) to live, you must create the space for her escape.

Even if you are surprised, your training should accomodate that, preparing your body for the unexpected. This is why we train Iron Body and other skills. Not to be 'invincible', but to give you an edge against the unexpected.

They might be armed, but I almost always am. It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.

I would never display my weapon as described above. It should be felt before it is seen. I used to have a collection of weapons that were displayerd to me when I was living in Chicago.

You must always be aware in your fighting of the weapons you do not see.

This is a multiple attacker scenario - in most jurisdictions you are justified in using deadly force. This not a schoolyard brawl.

Sure, you might lose. They might grab her while you are busy, any dozen scenarios could happen. Which why you resolve them in your body/mind in the practice hall, and in conflict you are a blade.

Luck in battle.

[red5angel]

Rogue, why sport fighters in particular?

[rogue]

R5A, Think of the training a sport fighter does compared to the average martial artist. A well trained sport fighter is used to taking shots, recovering and going on. Though I'm not a sport fighter I know what damage I can take and still go on from all the sparring I've done and that's worth more than all the applications I can pull from any form.
Monkeyslaps explanation of why he trains Iron Body is the same thing. It doesn't matter how hard you can hit if you can't take some good hits and recover.

[red5angel]

Sounds cool to me, I can go with that.

That's actually been my point on a few threads lately. Since I went from training TMA with wingchun to a little MMA for sport fighting, I can see where TMA is mostly lacking in certain aspects of training. I don't think it's an issue of whether the stuff works however, just taht most TMA people don't train as hard as most MMA peeps.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by MightyB
I would fight, but, I would tend to avoid the situation in the first place. I think about it if it was my wife or a friend of mine, I'd have to fight, but, the site of me standing up and hearing the "kashink" of my two foot tactical baton while I stare right at them usually is enough. You might get a couple of comments about being loco from them, but fukem, they're bums, who cares what they think.

Here's something about batons, you have to be willing to kill them just as you would if it were a gun in your hand. Otherwise, it won't save you, you have to be intent on killing, not maiming, you don't have that option, but killing. Any hesitation on your part gets you five bums armed with a club.

Haha, that reminds me of something. My dad used to be a cop and he diffused more than one situation with just a baton and mostly it was the people backing down from him. Hehe, he is a big fellow though so that helps too.

[Cipher]

You know, something else to think about when running scenes like this through your head is to imagine a worse case scenerio. You just came from a formal party and your in dress pants, shoes and shirt, you have no weapons or mace with you and your feeling sick. It would seem like a lot of these things can play a major factor in what you do. We may not always be in the ideal situation with sweatpants and knife ready to go. What I mean is it's good to think about worse case scenerio too.

I agree though, I thought about this happening to me and my wife too and really I don't see any other option than fighting it out the best I can and doing the most and most economical damage I can possibly do weather I just got out of class or I'm still wearing a easter bunny outfit for the local easter party.

And the guy that went and got help may have been a very wimpy little guy, not to be harsh or anything but maybe staying and fighting would have been equal to him putting a gun to his head and shooting himself.

I know one thing though I would not want to fight anyone defending his family unless I had the same motive. It seems like POS trying to get a thrill Vs. husband defending wife/familiy the POS would not have much motivation to fight but the husband is in a no option to lose mode, But..... 5 POS Vs. one husband would be much harder to deal with.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm with you 100% on this one, and here's why.

If you run, and they drag her off, the chances of finding her alive are pretty close to 0%

This guy was dam.m lucky in this instance. In the real world, once he lost her, and by the time the cops got there, she could have been ANYWHERE with no help, protection or hope.

No, in this instance, you fight, you fight hard, and you fight relentlessly and you don't stop untill you have her back SAFE. If that means killing them first, and asking questions later, you do that. Be fast, be brutal, be merciless.

I was attacked 5 on one once. To this day I live wth the guilt of maiming one guy so bad he was rummured to have been in the hospital for a week. Doctors had to pull what was left his rib cage out of his lungs and he almost died (So I'm told, I took off afterwords) BUT, I am alive and well, and me not being here now would have been a much greater price to pay then the guilt I carry.

Now, if I had been with a girl, failed to protect that girl wheather it be a Freind, Lover, Wife or whatever, I couldn't live with myself.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rogue

Now how would you fight to protect someone in this situation? Keep them close, separate or something else?



You gotta keep them close for as long as you can. that's more dangerous for you, BUT the closer they are to you, the further they are from her. Also, with them being close, if one decides to take off after her, you hopefully won't have to do alot of running to try and catch him. Plus, in close you can get off more power shots and stand a better chance of dropping them. however, they have that same advantage, which is why it's more dangerous for you.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Haha, that reminds me of something. My dad used to be a cop and he diffused more than one situation with just a baton and mostly it was the people backing down from him. Hehe, he is a big fellow though so that helps too

REPLY: You better be dang sure of yourself to dangle a weapon. If you reveal your weapon, they may have a chance to escalate - by pulling a more dangerous weapon. I do not suggest this strategy in a dangerous multiple attacker scenario. It MIGHT work, and I've psyched people out of fighting before, but with the woman present, the risk is too high.

For the record, I am almost always armed. Even when wearing a suit and tie at a business presentation I will have at least two knives and other 'things'. If you had lived were I lived, you would feel comfortable this way too. For me, kung fu is not a hobby, but a way of life.

But please, do not carry without intelligent training.

[scotty1]

"Even when wearing a suit and tie at a business presentation I will have at least two knives and other 'things'. If you had lived were I lived, you would feel comfortable this way too."

Dude, you scare the sh!t out of me.

:p ;)

[Merryprankster]

I would have used my BJJ training to get up safely.

Then I would have used my BJJ training to take one of them down and get boot****ed. :D

Ok, seriously? In the absence of immediately available weapons, fight back, fight inside (greatest chance for success for me--knees elbows, my best power punches, throws, headbutts), and fight MY ASSAILANTS FIRST. If I'm knocked out, we're both hosed.

Jostle, try to keep my oppenent between me and the rest, hit hard, hit fast, hit often. I'm in better shape and in about 15 seconds, that will matter. Disengage at the nearest opportunity if and only if she can haul ass too. Keep ME between her and the assailants.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by scotty1
"Even when wearing a suit and tie at a business presentation I will have at least two knives and other 'things'. If you had lived were I lived, you would feel comfortable this way too."

Dude, you scare the sh!t out of me.

:p ;)

you're not the only one :D

[LEGEND]

I would have probably jumped one guy and bit the "F" out of him...in short of commiting manslaughter! I would have to be KO before they stop me from harming a love one!

[rogue]

Sevenstar what I meant by "Now how would you fight to protect someone in this situation? Keep them close, separate or something else?" I meant where to keep your loved one not the punks. :) So fellows, any ideas?

"You know, something else to think about when running scenes like this through your head is to imagine a worse case scenerio. "
Right Cipher, it's not enough to work through these using the Sunnyday scenerio you really have to look for the screw ups that can happen.

I also pack several knifes, a swiss, a quality folder and one cheap ($9.00 Target special) folder that is very slim and concealable. And an umbrella.

[desertwingchun2]

Personally I think neither the guy or girl had an understanding of their surroundings. Looking back to my past I think we knew the score. Growing up everyone carried something. I dated girls who had more things that they could cut you with! The best was this one girl who had a 6" double sided switchblade. She was a crazy broad, anyways ....

I mean just to walk to the market I had what I had but also knew which bushes I had stashed stuff in. There were always bricks, bottles, etc close by.

And for this guy to go balistic thats something that is more a personality trait. And goes to the core of a person. I've seen those who when confronted just go off I mean psychopaths !!!! Then there are the types that when things get rough they just run !!! I found out my "buddy" was of the latter in the middle of a riot. Not good timing !!

Anyways, I'm of the thought that I would have been prepared and the confrontation would definetly have been messy. But thats my reaction from the comfort of my computer room. And I hope I never have to find out.

-David

[SevenStar]

Oops, my bad Rogue :) I think there can be two schools of thought on that one - keep her close so that you can make sure they don't get too far with her, or keep her separate so that she has room to run.

My primary concern is her safety, so I want her to get as far away as possible. Even if the guys can't rape her while she's close, she can still take damage. If they do knock her out, then manage to get the best of me, they don't have to worry about her fighting while they are trying to carry her away - I would have to fight them AND protect her at the same time, which could be too much. I would tell her to run and I would try to make the necessary space for her to get away.

My hope is that they care more for their own safety than whether or not they rape her. If that's the case, then they will focus their attention on me because I am an immediate threat.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
........REPLY: You better be dang sure of yourself to dangle a weapon. If you reveal your weapon, they may have a chance to escalate - by pulling a more dangerous weapon. I do not suggest this strategy in a dangerous multiple attacker scenario. It MIGHT work, and I've psyched people out of fighting before, but with the woman present, the risk is too high.............But please, do not carry without intelligent training.

Trust me he used it. I was talking about my dad as a cop not me:D But he has used his PR24 against people before, his gun too.

I totaly agree about the training, that's one of the reasons why you hear people make comments like they had a gun and it was taken from them etc. etc. At a bar in FL. I drove by the parking lot and a few guys were fighting, one on maybe 3 or 4. The one guy went to his car and pulled out a gun but the only problem was he expected it to deter the guys into backing down and was not ready to use it. Needless to say one of the other guys took the gun, pistol wipped him and then stomped his head in. So a person needs to have training in using what ever they want to carry and they better have the mentality that they will use it if they pull it. Anyways, good point.

What do you guys usually carry for protection? I just about allways have 5" folder Tanto style blade, it is not the best quality but it is decent. I am thinking about getting a Spiderco or Cold Steel folder. From a legal standpoint I would tend to think the telescoping battons would be better but I don't know really.

[dezhen2001]

i feel left out, i dont have anything :(

dawood

[rogue]

I've heard conflicting things on where to place the person you're protecting. Seems to be a judgement call based on the situation. Also we can't discount that some of our woman folk are capable of at least watching our backs until the chance to run presents itself.


What do you guys usually carry for protection? I just about allways have 5" folder Tanto style blade, it is not the best quality but it is decent. I am thinking about getting a Spiderco or Cold Steel folder. From a legal standpoint I would tend to think the telescoping battons would be better but I don't know really. I think 5" is over the legal limit here for a concealed weapon. Cops tend to look down on concealed weapons in general and battons are no exception. That's why in my car I carry a piece of old rebar and a small baseball bat with one of my kids old baseball gloves.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by rogue
I've heard conflicting things on where to place the person you're protecting. Seems to be a judgement call based on the situation. Also we can't discount that some of our woman folk are capable of at least watching our backs until the chance to run presents itself.

I think 5" is over the legal limit here for a concealed weapon. Cops tend to look down on concealed weapons in general and battons are no exception. That's why in my car I carry a piece of old rebar and a small baseball bat with one of my kids old baseball gloves.

Were are you located? Chicago? I think the limit were I live is around 4-5".

Does anyone know, if you carry the knife in your pocket with a clip so that you can still see the knife is it considered concealed?

Something else I have thought about is carrying a nice walking stick like the one Cold Steel sells but it would be kind of silly walking around with one. Has anyone used a walking stick for protection? Hw did it work out? Did you still get questioned by cops etc. etc.

Here is a link http://eknifeworks.com/ than search for "city stick"