My 2 cents on the CLF history debate...

[Drake]

I am sick of this argument infesting this board like some sort of disease. And it seems that rght when it has breathed its last beath, someone walks in and brings it right back to life.
In defense of the Lacey school, I have seen a fair share of people antagonizing them as well, and I only wonder, to what point?
Say that through the hearsay and alleged facts, everyone magically comes into agreement about this whole issue. Then what? Is someone awarded some "winner" badge and the world is now set back in balance?
I am seeing rivalries being formed that do NOT have to exist. I would like to think that no matter what school of CLF I belong to, I can enter any school, Buk Sing, Hung Sing, or whatever, and be welcomed with open arms without being interrogated on what I believe or who I am siding with. Does this mean that if I train under Doc Fai Wong for too long, I am limited only to that particular sect?
This sounds outrageous, but these things are becoming a legitimate concern.
We are all on a journey in life, and the road is so much easier when we are helping each other, rather than letting the petty and unimportant dominate our peace.
Oh, and for reference, I am currently taking Tat Mau Wong's distance learning program... it's actually very good. Comprehensive in terms of both physical and mental necessities.

Drake~

[iron_silk]

People do what they do because they want to.

I do not know whether it will start again or not but it would seem like there was a time of quiet there. Yet it could also be that those who like to argue didn't get a chance to reply.

Now I doubt what occurs here applies to the grander scale of others and schools etc...

I do hope they stop but people chat what they chat when they chat. That is why I have stopped. Most of the time.

Unfortunately you seem to have inadvertantly started it again with your post. (on purpose or not)

Too bad.

[extrajoseph]

Although I am passionate about these debates on CLF history, I have never considered my opponents as my enemies or outsiders, they are my brothers and sisters and part of my extended family because we all do CLF. If I have a school I will welcome them any time and any place no matter what branch they come from. It is no one's fault when our history is a bit mixed up, it is because of time and circumstances making us a bit ignorance of our past.

Hopefully with all these debates, more articles and research will be done, so our students will have a better chance to see all points of view and presentations of evidence, and not just relying on the hearsay of their teachers and lineage politics. If someone made up history without evidence, it will show up soon or later if there is serious research done on the subject by historians and scholars.

I might have gone a bit far and personal in the past but it was the result of passion for the subject matter rather than hatred for my opponents in debate. Personally I am very optimistic about the future of CLF because it is a great system well documented and there are many hard working and intelligent students in our schools.

Don’t be afraid of some conflicts and hard debates, they are the backbones of democracy in a healthy society. Forums like this give us an opportunity to vent our thoughts and exchange ideas. It can’t be a bad thing and I am confident some good will eventually comes out of it.

Remember if history is not important, then we would not have it as a core subject in our schools, learning about the past is part of our life’s journey. Although your concerns are legitimate, debates on history are important and we should not be afraid of them or try to avoid them.

We all want peace and balance but a static type of peace and balance is not natural; if we are passionate about our CLF, then we will and should have more healthy debates on history in the future.

On the other hand, if no one cares, then they will stop of their own accord. There are no loosers.

Who is the winner? Us all!

JosephX

[Cody]

Let's see if we can turn this one around. First of all, I have mentioned in the recent past a simply written writeup on Conflict Resolution. It is set in a teacher/child venu, but can be expanded into the adult scene (Out on a Limb. A Guide To Getting Along. Conflict Resolution Theory. It's not childish.
http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/conflict/guide/intro_theory.html)
I think the last time, part of the link didn't come thru, so I'll write out the second part of it here again: edu/conflict/guide/intro_theory.html

So much for that.

Drake,
Arguments, conflicts that do not seem amenable to negotiation without some sort of mediation, can poison the well. It seems to be the way in the world. This instance is minor. Live with it.

Trying to influence conflict from outside by shaking a finger of disapproval, no matter how well meant, is futile, except if one has a position of power over any or all of the parties involved. power comes in many forms. One can't force how things should be even if it sounds good and true. People follow their hearts and minds, and sometimes the minds of those they hold in esteem out of trust and love, and sometimes that along with being reasonably overwhelmed.

In terms of having the freedom to migrate from school to school without fear of retribution for previous affiliations. Harm can occur if two teachers don't like each other personally, such that one or both might take this out on students who "come on down," as Bob Barker would say. I'm not talking of CLF here, but more generally. You have to watch your step.

Some teachers feel an unhealthy competition with other arts, and if they can't win you over to the point that you'll ridicule (even as part of a "joke") a previously studied art, or swear that the art of their schools is superior to Everything else, you stand a chance of being harmed if you don't comply. It can look like an accident.

So, in some situations, one can't migrate freely. In others, yes. Do you really expect such complete freedom everywhere? I say again, to look at your world at large. Please. I did some travelling years ago, and was told to make sure I visited certain countries before others, in terms of what appeared on my passport and how I would be treated. I didn't get into situations like this. I avoided them. But, they existed and, now..... the world is not a safe place.

It's okay if you and I or anyone wants to live a life of mutual helping. It's not wise to expect this view from others as a matter of course. It's a good way to get creamed. See, projecting your expectations onto others, even if they are well meant and kind, is a recipe for disaster when you have honest expectations of having this treatment returned because you think that's the way it should be. Even if you are correct.
While part of the road is mutual help, a significant area of it involves competition and fighting and winning. It is still unclear to me what we are being trained to fight against exactly, and what form that will take. My views take off in another direction that way, one I'm not sure of. Yet I feel sure we need to stop fighting each other, not want to do so. By fighting, I refer to physical and mental violence. a goal.

As a conclusion. While one might not be able to go freely to and from certain schools in any martial arts discipline, there are possibilities. People study more than one art. If the teacher demands that you leave what you've learned behind, then I would take that at face value. I think the problem is when one is invited to join or allowed to join a kwoon on one pretense and comes to realize that there is a winning over process going on which you can't negotiate yourself out of. There is no negotiation here. You leave while you can still walk.

I commend you that you're participating in Tat Wong's program on a long-distance basis.

extrajoseph,

The passion for the subject matter. interesting idea. It could be that there is too much passion here. It's like everyone has his version of the bible. It's that passionate. Maybe less passion would be better. I would agree that something sounding like hatred isn't necessarily the real litem. But, even an approximation goes in the wrong direction for one's own good, one's own heart. That's how I feel.

I've run out of time right now. Take care everyone.

Cody

[Arhat of Fury]

Nice post Drake , My thoughts exactly.
AOF
AKA Beligerent Arhat

[extrajoseph]

It is nice to hear a voice a reason on Christmas Eve. Conflict resolution is another way of saying be reasonable. The Chinese did not embraced Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism for no reason they balanced each other. Passion, like anything else, can have a constructive and destructive side. Some people are scare of it, others feed on it. Hopefully, we can learn to love and let go at the same time.

Merry Christmas!

[Cody]

Thank you. and may the blessings of the season, whatever your beliefs, visit you heart and home. (I, myself, have no beliefs, but I value the sweetness and kindness of this time of year.) I extend these wishes to all readers and participants.

It's a rather stressful time for me, but that's been going on for a while. I feel strongly about trying the resolve conflicts that cause separation where there should be unity, or at least peaceful coexistence and true good fellowship. For life is short and the human experience is difficult enough.

I don't know from balance. I'm not taking issue with what you said. It's that I am questioning this concept, and have been lately. I think some people use that word, and the go with the flow idea to lull others so they can do what they please. haha. oh yes, I do have a cynical bent of mind. I think both concepts have validity, but can be drawn thin.
Sometimes you just have to Go for it. That's where passion and determination come in. I think both can be noble. It's the motivation, the balance of motivation. Though, at the point where a feeling being becomes an object to move, to use, to discard, that's where I get uncomfortable. That is also part of human nature. It's a matter of degree, and then there is a change. That point of change, that pivoting, interests me as well.

Thank you for wishing me well, as I do you and everyone whether they agree with me or not, whether they are book learned or not, or even particularly adept. Doesn't matter. There's got to be a way. My Kung Fu for a long time has been to find it, and I'm not getting anywhere. Maybe someone else will have the smarts to do somethiing on a practical basis. Being part of the team is enough for me.

be well,
Cody

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Cody
There's got to be a way. My Kung Fu for a long time has been to find it, and I'm not getting anywhere. Maybe someone else will have the smarts to do somethiing on a practical basis. Cody

Let me paraphrase from another thread ("shapes shifting yin and yang"), I think Lao can say it much better than I can of the answer you are looking for:

"The more Yang capable you become, the more Yin understanding you will achieve. Once you throw off unnecessary baggage, the more clarity you'll have."

:)