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gung lik kuen
12-25-2002, 12:38 PM
I study a northern style of kung fu but I have been casting my eye at the internal arts for a while now as I have been reasing a book by BK frantzis called the power of internam martial arts which appears to be very good. All three of the major arts look very attractive to me but I would love to know what you guys think about the combact effectiveness of these arts?

Are there enough good teachers?

Do things like dim mak, vibrating palm etc exist ?

James Lacey who is this guy ? daoist? Ive heard of the taoists?


Any thoughts ?

Repulsive Monkey
12-25-2002, 04:29 PM
can be exceedingly effective combat wise. Dim Mak if from a decent source can provide all the evidence you need to efficacy. However I wouldn't advise you too much to read from just one authour especially Mr Frantzis, whom I believe is not as great as he and his studebts make him out to be. He is not the best example of Taiji, Xing-Yi or Bagua (although I do believe that if anything his skills in Bagua are the only ones worth looking at), and seems to be a Jack of all trades-master of none.
There is interesting information in his book but be careful there is also some misleading information in it too. This of course does not reflect upon the art, but merely the artist.

Tiger_Beach
12-25-2002, 08:17 PM
If you are in London, go see Wang Haijun. Tell him what you want to learn or ask him to show you how Chen Taiji fights, you will be rewarded.

I wish I were in Lodon so I can train from him regularly.

He lives and teaches full time in Manchester UK.

HispanicPalm
12-25-2002, 11:36 PM
gung lik kuen,

1)I would love to know what you guys think about the combact effectiveness of these arts?
I think the internal system's combat effectiveness solely depends on the practitioner. Setting realistic training goals and sticking to practical training methods is key.



2)Are there enough good teachers?

there are many teacher's all over the world some good some bad it really depends what side of the internal you want to explore(Forms, Fighting ect.)


3)Do things like dim mak, vibrating palm etc exist?

Yes, I believe these type of techniques do exist with strict traditional training.


4)James Lacey who is this guy ?

I've read some articles by a James Lacey mostly about a technique called the 18 taoist palms which looked like some kind of Chi Kung exercises. I also read a few on Dim Mak it seems like he knows his stuff.

Hope this helps

PEACE

Lincoln
12-26-2002, 05:11 PM
If you are in London you should contact Alex kozma. His web site is http://homepage.virgin.net/london.bagua
He has had several awesome internal arts teachers as well as written a couple of books about his experiences with them. I hope that this helps.

Lincoln

Muppet
12-27-2002, 01:48 PM
Honestly, there are not enough good teachers and oodles of frauds, so your best bet is to take whatever you can get, whether it be bagua, hsing i, taiji, etc.

You will eventually find one if you look hard enough, but except for the very big names, you really can't go on reputation alone, though it helps and you do have to start somewhere.

My first instructor had a good reputation--even for fighting, as some of his students in the 70s won first place in some full-contact kung-fu tournaments--but over the months it began to sink in that the guy I was learning from wasn't teaching the real goods.

- His champion students were pretty big
- His current batch of students long term were pretty lousy

Even if he USED to teach for real, it was clear that he wasn't sharing anymore.

My advice:
1). Check out the long-term students and see what they can do.
2). Once you've settled on someone, read the classics every now and then for that style and see what they have to say.

It's sort of like reading the description of a color.

If the teaching isn't genuine, you can spend a long time learning and either you'll start rationalizing the meanings behind the writings or it will remain cryptic altogether, whereas if the teaching is genuine, writings will start falling into place over time--say over the span of a year or two. It'll also give you insights (sometimes false) into your practice every now and then.

Anyway, here are some reading recommendations:
Tai Chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/091205901X/qid=1041021656/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-1548424-9130217?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

T'Ai Chi Ch'Uan Ta Wen, Questions and Answers on T'Ai Chi Boxing
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0938190679/qid=1041021755/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-1548424-9130217?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Xing Yi Nei Gong: Xing Yi Health Maintenance and Internal Strength Development
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0865681740/qid=1041021881/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-1548424-9130217?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

For the Xing Yi book, I think the best parts are the translations of essays by Dai Long Ban and some of Tim Cartmell's essays.

Imho, the contents of these three books are indispensible for any internal stylist.

HuangKaiVun
12-28-2002, 07:07 PM
I'd start by using the moves from your own gung lik kuen set in SPARRING, gung lik kuen.

Many of your questions will be answered in the process of pondering the combat possibilities.

omarthefish
12-28-2002, 09:52 PM
Is a good idea but not terribly relevant to:

what we guys think about the combact effectiveness of these arts?

Are there enough good teachers?

Do things like dim mak, vibrating palm etc exist ?

James Lacey who is this guy ? daoist? Ive heard of the taoists?

Still good advice though. And an understandable mistake as you probably are thinking about sparring even when you sleep.
;)

As to the topic, I like Muppet's advice. I also think your thoughts about how the classics can be helpfull is good take. I often wonder about where the book stuff comes in.

Really, if you can find someone who's got any real practicle skill in any of the so-called internal arts, jsut go for it and don't sweat over which one it is.

Scarletmantis
12-28-2002, 10:58 PM
Jim Lacey has recieved a great deal of critisim over the years from his fellow students and his Sigung, Doo Wai. The man actually changed the name of his martial art from Bak fu Pai (White Tiger Clan), to "18 Daoist Palms", a method of his own invention.

Doo Wai, who supposedly taught him everything he knows called Jim a "thief and liar", that is, before Jim sued him for defamation of character. Very poor etiquette from both sides IMHO.

At best, you will learn to break a coconut, at worst, you may think this makes you a fighter. I have actually trained with the man face to face in the San Diego area. To be honest, I was embarrassed for him. Don't waste your time.

David Jamieson
12-29-2002, 09:19 AM
At best, you will learn to break a coconut, at worst, you may think this makes you a fighter.

Holy C R A P!, not only is that funny, it shows remarkable insight into martial arts.

cheers

netfreak
01-01-2003, 04:28 PM
Hi all. I'm currently trying to study 7 star praying mantis, but my schedule is in the way. My sifu charges around $45 a month for three classes one hour each. I thought about paying around $60 or a bit more for two classes of an hour an half each, in order to complete the three hours. My question is, how much would you guys pay for good training? My sifu is a great martial artist, but i'm still considering other options. Oh well, any advice is GREATLY appreciated.

Scarletmantis
01-02-2003, 05:30 PM
netfreak, you should start your own thread aking this question by going to the "start thread" button at the bottom of the screen.