What are the most overrated "street effective" arts?

[rogue]

We all know that classical arts are worthless ( ;) ) for the street, but what legit arts that are considered street effective aren't all that they're cracked up to be?

My #1 choice, kali/escrima. Great art, great skills but how much practice do I need to learn how to hit someone with a stick? Where do I find a stick in the 1 to 2 seconds I may have before a fight starts? Is practicing for hours on knifefighting the best use of time for a civilian?

[Stacey]

jkd
tkd
bjj

[yenhoi]

Any 'art' that pretends to be street effective or trys to sell itself using such marketing hot-words is over-rated.

People fight on the streets not arts.

And I disagree with you concerning fma/kali, sticks are everywhere, easy to find, easy to use. Knife are the most common weapon used to attack people on the street (next to barehands.) Not to mention stick training is to teach you 'weapons' and 'angles' in general, not sticks. In kali you use a stick, knife, sword, book, magazine, rock the same exact way.


Being street-effective has to do with being aware. Aware of bad places, bad people, and aware of where the closest heaviest object is to hit someone with.

[SevenStar]

in addition, you also do empty hand work in kali. like yenhoi said, there are angles of attack (12) and stick training is usually the first weapon you learn while learning the 12 angles. you may then move to double stick, knife, stick and knife, etc. and you will do empty hand stuff.

IMO, any art can be street effective. Train properly and hardwire your basics and principles into muscle memory.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

up, down, side to side, the 4 angles to make a figure 8, and stab(?) make 9 ....

what would the other 3 be?

[SevenStar]

almost - straight up isn't one. dunno why though. I never asked. here they are:

1. High diagonal - left to right

2. Backhand high diagonal - right to left

3. Midlevel to right

4. Midlevel to left

5. Straight thrust to middle

6. Straight thrust to left shoulder

7. Backhand thrust to right shoulder

8. backhand low to high diagonal - right to left

9. Low to high diagonal - left to right

10. Low horizontal (across knee) right to left

11. Low horizontal (across knee) left to right

12. Overhand down

These are assuming you are holding the stick in your left hand - it's opposit for the right.

[jon]

Complicated question.
For an art to be compleatly ineffective from the start would surgest that something went *very* wrong during its creation.

What is much more commen is for good arts to turn into useless rubbish over time.

Honestly i have the best laugh at the many what i term 'tough guy schools' that i see around. Most teach a mish mash of stuff they have picked up over the years and most do not have any solid qualifications in any single one of the systems they site as inspiration.
You know the stuff i mean, they bandy about cliches like 'street lethal' and 'undefendable' with an obvious intent to try and sell what amounts to a product (great fighting skill for only 99.95).
These people are IMHO far more of a worry than most traditional schools as they attract a different mindset. They cater directly to the multitudes of people out there who cant be bothered to actualy train but would like to be able to know they can seriously hurt people anyway - just in case of course:rolleyes:

Still if i was to change the question to 'which schools are commenly not as good as there made out to be?'

Krav Maga - Great art which has been badly stripped down and bastadised.

SCARS - Kill a man in .02 of a second, look out for your CNS man, i will cripple you 'when' i get to your CNS, you uneducated git!!!

Boxing - Great in gloves and in the ring, seen enough decent boxers have there shirt pulled over the head and knee smashed repeatably in the face to know it has many limitations as well.

Aikido - Some are good, a *lot* seem to be *really* bad, make of that what ever you like.

TKD - Would you like your black belt in six months or three? Our easy payment system lets you decide!

Kung Fu - The only art where if two people slap each other lightly on the arms in a friendly game of tag, two hundred years later its legend has become a lethal battle to the death - with lightsabers!

Tae Bo - Do i even need to explain?

[SifuAbel]

Anything with the word "Combat" strung in front of the original name.

Anything with the word "scientific" in its name or description.

Or anything that touts being "evolved" and somehow "new".

Anything that preaches street effectivness in 2 easy lessons.

[yenhoi]

7*: some kali systems teach more then 12 angles. Some only 5 (vertical, horizontal, 2 diagonals, 1 stab). Some arnis dont teach angles, they work only with 'cut' and 'stab' and teach only sensitity. Some arnis teach one 'technique' and thats it.

Not one art ever has, can, or will make anyone street effective, ever. Hardwork counts, nothing else.

[Kinjit]

TKD... Overrated by whom? I tought it was the most frequently bashed system there is...

[Sharky]

wing chun

[David Jamieson]

Any "art" that is "sold" as a "street effective" fighting mechanism is, well... NOT.

The street is no place for "art" :D

Seriously though, there are very very few people out there who practice martial arts to improve their chances in a street fight.
Any teacher who would give it up to a person looking to "streetfight" isn't likely much of a teacher of an "art".

Go spend some time in a military institution and get some urban combat training that includes the use of small arms tactics. You'll improve your chances of victory on the street much better.

who the heck deliberately street fights? besides gang members? and look at gang members. the band together for lack of family or self esteem, spend mopst of their time angry or fearful, Just how much "art" can a gang member absorb that isn't innate?

Kind of a weird question really Rogue.

peace

[Chang Style Novice]

Colored chalk on pavement washes away with a medium rain, and is scuffed unrecognizable when people walk on it. I don't know if that makes it overrated for street effectiveness, though, since no-one seems to think they're creating something permanent.

Krylon seems to hold up pretty well, but it's mostly painted over by the city or property owners fairly quickly.

Your best bet for street effectiveness is large-scale sculpture or mosaic, with permission and funding from city or property owners, so it wont be summarily removed.

Wait, did you mean arts or martial arts?:D

[David Jamieson]

I think that large commisioned stainless steel sculptures representing the balance of man and nature are the most street effective CSN. :D

hahahaha, that was pretty funny when I reflected upon it.

peace

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Anything with the word "Combat" strung in front of the original name.


Is Combat Shuai Chiao included in this one?

[rogue]

"In kali you use a stick, knife, sword, book, magazine, rock the same exact way."

Great in theory but not in practice. That's marketing that instructors toss out along with all fights go to the ground. Each of those weapons have different properties of reach, grip and striking surface. A magazine is not a sword and a brick is not a stick. Try this drill, walk down a street with a friend and have him say now. Find a stick or a rock or whatever in 2 seconds and be ready to use it. Your other choice is to just depend upon empty hand and hope for the best.

"in addition, you also do empty hand work in kali. like yenhoi said, there are angles of attack (12) and stick training is usually the first weapon you learn while learning the 12 angles. you may then move to double stick, knife, stick and knife, etc. and you will do empty hand stuff. "

Like I said kali is a great art just not as practical as some would make it seem. All those things will mean nothing unless you walk around with a length of rataan and/or a spada y dagga at the ready. Personally I carry an umbrella as often as possible and a pocket folder always.

#2 on my list, Muay Thai. Great art for it's simplicity and training, but without the hardcore training it's no more effective than any other striking art. Also it doesn't contain training for use against multiple opponents. This is one art that is rapidly being dumbed down and becoming the core of many cardio kickboxing classes. How many schools still do real shin conditioning?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi
7*: some kali systems teach more then 12 angles. Some only 5 (vertical, horizontal, 2 diagonals, 1 stab). Some arnis dont teach angles, they work only with 'cut' and 'stab' and teach only sensitity. Some arnis teach one 'technique' and thats it.

Not one art ever has, can, or will make anyone street effective, ever. Hardwork counts, nothing else.

yeah, some styles - I think serrada is one - I can't remember if it has more than 12, or if it only has 12 and eliminats three of the angles for thhree thrusts.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by rogue


...but without the hardcore training it's no more effective than any other striking art.

This is ANY art Rogue. And the main reason CMA in general sucks today.

Also it doesn't contain training for use against multiple opponents.

I think it's just as good as any other art in this department.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rogue


Like I said kali is a great art just not as practical as some would make it seem. All those things will mean nothing unless you walk around with a length of rataan and/or a spada y dagga at the ready. Personally I carry an umbrella as often as possible and a pocket folder always.

which is why you learn empty hand also. At the time of Kali's inception, EVERYONE carried a stick or knife - that's why you learned those skills first and empty hand last. Now, (at least at the places I've seen/heard of) you work empty hand along with the other methods - not last.

#2 on my list, Muay Thai. Great art for it's simplicity and training, but without the hardcore training it's no more effective than any other striking art. Also it doesn't contain training for use against multiple opponents. This is one art that is rapidly being dumbed down and becoming the core of many cardio kickboxing classes. How many schools still do real shin conditioning?

Muay Thai is not claiming to be street effective. It will teach you how to fight, but not necessarily self defense. Consequently, It will never have training for multiple attackers. However, it does instill the skills, conditioning and aggressiveness you need to survive in such a situation should it arise. The dumbing down is no different than the mcdojo-izing of TKD and TMA in general, it was bound to happen. If you find a real muay thai school though, then you will shin condition, you will spar hard, etc. I think you will find more hard schools that soft when it comes to MT though. The cardio kickboxing guys usually just say "kickboxing" and don't finger muay thai. Thank Billy blanks and the guys that invented cardio kickboxing and aeroboxing for that.

[rogue]

But Sevenstar that's not what the street combat crowd says, the only good kick is a Thai roundhouse. And look at what Yenhoi said(not picking on you, I've said the same thing in the past). I believed that too when I was studying kali but reality set in. That two second drill about finding and deploying a stick or stick like object is something that any of my escrimadore friends have yet to pass. There may be others out there that can but not amongst my cirlcle of friends.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Chang Style Novice]

Street Effective Art (http://www.sackville.ednet.ns.ca/art/gallery/exhibit/pop/Oldenburg,Claes-Bat_Column-1975.jpg):D

[Former castleva]

Overrated?
I do not know of any,as we know any art may be very good,some people may tell they are the "best" but that is for them.

One very interesting point to notice is that if you search the forums or chat rooms etc.
You may find people who go like "X art is bad","X art is good"
"TMA sucks" "MMA rules" or vice versa.
It is very valuable to me,to see that they are either inexperienced practitioners or just plain ignorant practitioners to bash those styles-nearly always with readily biased attitude.
For such a person,it warms to bring a case like "X style fighter lost in sport x competition" then saying it is not effective...
This is less analytical,biased view (A cigarette company cannot tell their supporters that they´ll eventually die if they smoke)
While forgetting about those countless practitioners out there,forgetting about actual self-defense and related incidents.
:cool:

Now imagine I was a shih tzu quan guy (I will use these made-up example to not upset anyone) I will wind up telling people how my style´s big boys bashed someone in a competition or are just plain so-so good.
Does not it hurt one´s eye(s) that the big boys,masters,sifu´s with good intentions never did care to brag about that.
Did they hand you a list on which style sucks and which rules?..I thought so too.

[Royal Dragon]

shih tzu quan? :confused:

Is this a dig at me??:confused:













































:D :) :p :eek:

[yenhoi]

rogue:

Try this drill,

Funny, we have that one. :D We even try it at night sometimes. Pay attention to your surroundings, once you get awareness down, weapons pop out of the woodwork, literally.

You are right and wrong about differnt propertys of weapons. The main characteristic that changes how weapons are used is if they have an edge, and/or if they are flexible.

7* is correct. Some FMA's were developed because of tribal warfare in the jungle and on the beaches etc. Some because the 'streets' arent exactly safe, and everyone carried a weapon. My father uses a cane, he always has a weapon with him.

Depending on how a system is taught, weapon skills translate almost directly into empty hand, its all about the angles and movement (things moving, feet moving, bodys moving...) a good place to look at FMA training methods is tapes etc by Dan Inosanto. Kali trains footwork, angles, and sensitivity. Not techniques and weapons.

Regardless of what we think of FMA's , street effectiveness has nothing to do with what the fighters call their arts or lack of.

[Former castleva]

lol.
Do you have a shih tzu Royal?
:)

So if weapon skill nearly directly translates to empty hand skill (hmm) then great empty hand skill nearly directly translates to weapon excellence?

If not,then there is something rotten stinking down there...
:D

[Arhat of Fury]

I think this question falls into that lovely category of
"THE ARTIST MAKES THE DECISION IF HIS SYSTEM/ART IS EFFECTIVE OR NOT BY HOW HE EMPLOYS IT"

Rogue,
You might as well ask
"Which race/ethnicity do you think sucks at fighting the most" because that is basically what you have implied.
I have seen navy seals get their ass handed to them by muy thai fighters and I have seen CMAists completely dominate MMA fighters.
Good question, maybe a different angle would have been better addressed.
Like "From you experience with confrontations, which art/form of combat have you seen that appears to be way overrated"

Not a blast, just my perception.

AOF

[[Censored]]

If you define "overrated street effective art" by

# times skillfully used / # of times used

then the most overrated arts are boxing and wrestling.

[rogue]

What was your fastest time? The best I did was around 5 seconds and that was in a woods. Too bad I picked up a rotten branch that fell apart when I brought it up. Using a sunnyday scenerio where everything goes your way (your awareness is high, recovery from the surprise is quick, etc...) the time it takes to find, move to, bend down, grab the weapon, stand up (why stand, hit the guy in the legs) and get ready to fight, it's still going to be tight, not to mention you've moved your eyes off of your attacker. If you can't find a weapon you could still use your kali empty hand techniques, but now you've wasted what a second, maybe two looking for a weapon? And once again you've probably taken your eyes off of your opponent while doing this. I still dabble in stick fighting when time allows(which these days means it's rare) but I've learned it takes much more than sinawalli to use it on the street.

The thing I learned from the drill is that when seconds count you can only go with what is already in your hands.

[rogue]

AOF, it's more of a marketing question. :D

[Arhat of Fury]

Tae bo
or maybe tai chi or xing-yi or pakua(just because they take so lng to become proficient at.)

AOF

[dezhen2001]

Hey guys, sorry to but in...

FC: as u know in WC it kinda works in the opposite way to how general FMA and aikido seems ot be taught (ime anyway). We learn the baat jam do (8 slash knives) generally after we do the empty hand forms. But many of the principles and even techniques are the same, so its an extension of the empty hand.

In the aikido i trained and FMA i have seen weapons are generally trained 1st or equally with empty hand.

Guess it just depends, as both help increase accuracy, power, footwork etc. and compliment each other.

to answer the question:

i've trained with a few people who do these 'real self defence' styles/hybrids and really im pretty unimpressed. i pretty much found that if i stick to my own skill and do things as i know how i generally fare pretty well unless i screw up :D (**** i just stated the obvious). i found that some people who train too many different principles and no clear root are easier to deal with. Again to me thats different from MMA so no beef with those guys :p

To me 'real self defence' includes things mentioned before such as awareness training, pre/during/post fight psychology, use of street weapons, retention, legal ramifications and all that kinda stuff. Martial arts can sure develop awareness and the ability to adapt, but i dont count it as real self defence. Actually im not particularly interested in real self defence so thats why i train CMA :) there is some crossover, but its clear.

hmmm... i really didnt end up saying naything worthwhile oh well...

dawood

[Royal Dragon]

Former castleva,
No, I practice a Chinese art called "Tai" Tzu Quan though :p

[Nevermind]

Umm.....you guys aren't really considering Tae Bo a martial art are you? Seriously, you're kidding right? I can be kind of slow sometimes and tongue in cheek references go over my head on the internet because I can't see you guys' faces. Tae Bo is still considered to be aerobic kickboxing, right? Come on guys, you're scaring me. Throw me a frickin' bone, for chrissake!

[Royal Dragon]

Nope, Tae Bo is now an official martial art. I remeber someone talking about a Tae Bo self defence video teaching how to use it in a self defense situation.

Of course, they could have been BS'n (I hope) ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rogue
But Sevenstar that's not what the street combat crowd says, the only good kick is a Thai roundhouse.

Exactly. now we're getting somewhere. we've transcended style an gone into technique. And there is some truth to that - low powerful kicks are street effective. other kicks fall into that category:

seapu(sp?) a low line front kick used in silat
stomp kicks
MT style roundhouse kicks.

This goes back to what I originally said - train your basics, ecause every art has techs that are street effective. To be street effective, you don't need a certain style, but there are certain techniques that seem to work better, and I'd venture to say that most styles have variations of those techniques.

[rogue]

"This goes back to what I originally said - train your basics, ecause every art has techs that are street effective. To be street effective, you don't need a certain style, but there are certain techniques that seem to work better, and I'd venture to say that most styles have variations of those techniques."

Oh Sevenstar my poor misguided friend, what ever are we to do with you. Only certain arts have effective techniques and these are only known to those who have studied them less than 2 years or better yet read about them in Black Belt magazine. :D

I was actually told by someone who neither practices any karate or any form of TKD that those arts don't have knees, elbows, headbutts, use of the shin as a blocking/striking surface and many other things.

[yenhoi]

I have met a few really good TKD guys. I havent been able to find a good TKD school ever. If you train correctly you will be badass.

:eek:

:eek:

rogue:

Mine was like 3 seconds. I used the attackers belt. Another time I used a shoe. I dont know if I would really do that in a real life or death street encounter, because Ive never had one ("not really"). My reaction would probably be empty handed, because thats what I spend the most time training. Hopefully at this point in the scenario I have already tried to run, etc. :confused:

[rogue]

Good solutions Yenhoi, no one ever lists running away and it's the smartest thing to do.:D

[OdderMensch]

Good solutions Yenhoi, no one ever lists running away and it's the smartest thing to do.

there was a thread about this in street/reality.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=17781

[Machimurasan]

Most M.A.s as taught today claim to have effective self-defense techniques. The truth is that many don't have a clue. How could they? With the legal environ the way it is, in the U.S. especially, it's so hard to evaluate what is legit and what isn't. In an uncontrolled environment, like the street, there are so many variables that don't allow for effective rendering of things learned in a dojo or MAs school. If you've observed or been involved with a few scraps in your adult years then you may be able to discern what is effective or not.

The thing is that every confrontation is case dependent. Meaning that it rarely happens the same way twice. You have to have some faith and analytical ability to judge whether or not what's being pitched to you as self-defense, is really just a MAs version of insurance. The difference being you can rest assured that if you get into an accident and you have reliable car insurance that the company will foot the bill for the damages. With MAs training you have to HOPE and believe that the self-defense "insurance" you have will cover your arse when the isht hits the fan!

Subjectivity is a Universal concept. Hope springs eternal!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi
I have met a few really good TKD guys. I havent been able to find a good TKD school ever. If you train correctly you will be badass.


There's a good school in my city - the teacher is awesome with TKD and Judo. One of his judo black belts trains at our bjj place now, and he placed 3rd in the World judo championships last year. Also, the teacher trained the woman who won gold in 88. Two friends of mine who train under him were going to try for the olympics. One of them (and she's a female) used to work as a bouncer, and used her tkd on numerous occasions. she then went on to work for the sheriff's dept. I saw my other friend fight while were in school, and he was no slouch either.

[rogue]

I hear you Machimurasan. Many martial artists mistake technique for the ability to fight or defend oneself when things go wrong. Your statement "The thing is that every confrontation is case dependent." is why training has to be more than scenerio training, more than "if he does this you do this" kind of techniques. It has to help you learn to think on your feet when everything goes into the cr@pper.

Sevenstar, last year I got to workout with some WTF/Olympic TKD folk. I found out the reason they kick high and it's to knock their opponent out (which is also a tactic in muay thai, sabaki, K-1, san shou and any other kickboxing art). Also I was glad for the chest protector when I got hit with a spinning back kick. The only reason I didn't get killed was that I cheated and they followed the rules. They told me I would have been DQ'd in the first bunch of seconds. It's not a matter of not having skills but how good WTF TKD people apply them.