Adding boxing into my training regiment

[Muppet]

By many accounts, boxing training seems to complement Hsing I fairly well, and learning to read your opponent, gauge distances, take hits, etc. early on seems to be a good idea.

Not to mention boxing training whips you into shape.

The body mechanics for generating power and the fighting tactics are different, so I think I have to be careful not to mix the two early on, but I think the pros outweigh the cons.

Anyway, anybody else on the same route? That is, adding a full-contact sparring-oriented style to complement their neijia training? And if so, what are your experiences?

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by Muppet
learning to read your opponent, gauge distances, take hits, etc. early on seems to be a good idea.


Why wouldnt you get this from your Xing Yi training?

IMHO if you are learning good combat oriented Xing Yi theres really no need to do boxing. The spare time would be better spent improving your Xing Yi or maybe training some weapons or bjj if crosstraining is your thing.

[Muppet]

Simple.

While the instructor is VERY combat oriented, like many internal schools, my school is currently comprised of students who are looking for something mystical.

All the fight-oriented students have moved on (e.g., away to college, etc.).

It's ironic because while nobody is really good enough to spar (self included), when the instructor is around we normally do two-person drills and form tests (e.g., using beng chuan to punch someone holding a body-pad). Not exactly sparring, but it's a good start.

Unfortunately, because of certain obligations the instructor isn't around most of the week and so it's the students that teach.

Guess what they revert to?

Forms.

Somehow they think doing forms and chi kung exercises alone will develop their "chi", giving them the ability to contend against fighters who have trained hard and sparred for years..

And I'm not sure where they're getting these ideas because it's definitely NOT the instructor who pushes this stuff.

Imho, by searching for the mystical not only do these students miss the point in drills and forms, they miss the point in the chi kung and breathing exercises, so I can't see myself sparring with them any time soon.

Dunno, I'm going to try voicing my objections a bit more loudly, but I have a feeling it's not going to make an ounce of difference.

On the other hand, the instructor is really THAT good that I'll stick around despite all this. In fact, the instructor felt it would be a good idea to get in boxing training.

In the meantime, while I get better at this, the sparring skills (not to mention conditioning) in boxing should serve me well in preparation.

[Ray Pina]

I think the difficulty lies in that maybe 5% of students really have it in them, that desire to throw down. People just don't like to get punched in the face -- imagine that.;)

Learn from your teacher. Get the formula.

Then find a group you can relatively trust and have fun. I like head gear with a cage -- I can admit that. My nose would probbaly be crooked by now if I didn't, but I know I have to start taking it off.

I did the other day and caught a 12 oz glove right to the top of the eye. Surprisingly, it didn't really hurt and no damage.:)

Fighting is fun. Even losing -- to me -- has a sense of accomplishment to it, to get home and be a little sore or banged up and know you stepped to the plate. I look at it that if they are all home runs you're not facing good pitchers.

Hopefully one day they'll all be home runs, but I'm still playing T-ball.
Peace

[Xebsball]

Ah Muppet, see so your Xing Yi training as far as combat go is indeed lacking. Well what say is if it wasnt lacking on that doing boxing with it would be pretty much pointless.

[SevenStar]

On average, how long is it before people start to spar full contact in your kwoon Xeb?

[Xebsball]

I wouldnt be able to comment on avereage, since i live on a city nearby my instructors i can only train on weekends. From mine and the dudes with me, we started to spar at i think 5 months.

[HuangKaiVun]

Boxing goes well with Hsing I.

Just remember that there's more to Hsing I than just punching somebody in a "legal" area.

There are all sorts of Hsing I grappling moves that work great in sparring.

In my school, any technique a student learns from me is put to the test IMMEDIATELY via sparring.

[fragbot]

The body mechanics for generating power and the fighting tactics are different, so I think I have to be careful not to mix the two early on, but I think the pros outweigh the cons.


While I'd generally agree, I'd suggest you read Jack Dempsey's "Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching and Aggressive Defense" before making up your mind entirely.

It's pretty difficult to find (originally published in the 195-mumble and reprinted in 1980), but it's a worthwhile read.

Although I found the tone distasteful, I think Xebsball was theoretically correct. In theory, xingyi training should be as rigorous and physical as boxing. In practice, it'd be unusual for that to be the case.

[Ray Pina]

As much as I think "testing" is important, there are a lot of other things that must be going on, too.

For example, 5 months to me seems a bit quick. How far can one go with the 5 Requirements in five months? Without the 5 requiremnts is it Hsing-I or kick boxing.

My teacher brought up a great point the other day that I think is worth sharing: Tae Kwon Do spars everyday.

Do you know what I mean by that?

I don't want to do that type of "tag", light sparring. I want to get in and finish things quick and visciously. Who wants to spar that way? My teacher uses my head as a shot put. Even with his kind hands the power is there and it's not exactly comfortable. If he went for real I'd be dead.

In a perfect world I'd spend about 85% of my time on methodology and power training and the remainder on push hands and fighting.

I know I'm as guilty as anyone for always trying to put the cart before the horse. I think that's just part of being young and feeling invincible; anxious.

Happy New Year!:)

[Xebsball]

No kick-boxing, no TKD, just good old xing yi.
How far can one go?
Like this: i can fight, and its xing yi im using for it when i do, got it?
If you cant do it in 3, 5, 10, 20 months, thats all your issue, are you following?

[Ray Pina]

Absolutely!:)

On the other hand, people with zero training can still fight. I don't want to fight, I want to demolish.

[Muppet]

Xebsball,

If someone can really fight with xing yi after only 3 months, they're either kidding themselves, they've got a strong base in another internal martial art, or they're making awkward adaptations to the techniques using external strength.

The amount of time involved to develop the internal power and meld it with the forms is staggering but frankly, the five elements is crippled when resorting to ordinary muscle strength.

One can use xing yi tactics to fight and xing yi forms to complement the tactic, but the options becomes limited and one would have been better off having learning an external style in the first place.

Thus, I don't mind taking my time developing the internal power and taking the five elements slowly. However, I don't want to get out of shape while doing so nor do I want to neglect drills/sparring fundamentals.

I guess the old timers didn't have this problem since they didn't have the modern conveniences and lifestyle that we do.

[Xebsball]

Never said someone should be a great fighter with 3 months of training. Point me where i say "Homie, you have be able to fight awesomely perfectly great within 3 months".
Im saying with 6 months hell yeah i can fight using xing yi, how good is relative -> i never said i can beat up every man that walks this earth, but i sure can beat the avereage forms collector or kung fu dancer. If YOU cant use xing yi thats your problem AND/OR your teachers problem.

Say you are attacked now, what do you do:
A) duck and cover
B) use what you learned of xing yi
C) use boxing
What im saying is i go for B)
while you would have to go for the C)
The reason why? You are not trained to pick B)
Well, i am.

Im saying that the "internal takes 10 years" is pure bull****, and its only said by people that just cant fight at all.
The power of everything you do is both internal and external, and beng quan for example is something that is very functional regardless of having "developed internal power" or not. Its called mechanics. If you didnt realise this by yourself i dont know what kind of 5 elements you are doing.
The whole idea is mechanics + energy (jing, chi, blah blah blah)
The external part may very well be learnt to the point of being functional in some months. As you progress over the years this mechanics also get better, more and more refined.
Paralel to this you obviously go on also developing your internal, that should be added to the final product of the power you apply and the damage you make.

Or course someone with 10 years should be better then the dude with only one 1 year.
But a xing yi guy trained to fight in a 1 year could very well crush a xing yi guy that trained only beautiful soft flowery forms for the period of 5 years.

If you intend to talk about the old china then think this: those days people had a lot less security to walk on the streets than we do today. They had to be able to defend themselves fast. Do you really think they waited 5 years or whatever to be able to save their asses?
Please wake up, the context in wich xing yi was developed simply didnt allow "long term waiting". Say i need soldiers ready to battle, how much time should i need to prepare them? You do know that this art began its developement having soldiers in mind, dont you?
If a country is in war are you going to take 5 years before they being able to battle? Dont you think your country can be crushed/invaded on that waiting period?

[Muppet]

Sure, I can beat the crap out of french bicyclists.

That's not the point.


Im saying that the "internal takes 10 years" is pure bull****, and its only said by people that just cant fight at all.
The power of everything you do is both internal and external, and beng quan for example is something that is very functional regardless of having "developed internal power" or not. Its called mechanics. If you didnt realise this by yourself i dont know what kind of 5 elements you are doing.


I don't expect you to take my word or believe me, but I know it isn't bull**** because I've been on both the receiving end AND experienced generating a small degree of internal power (and I do mean a SMALL degree) first hand.

At this point, I'm convinced that people who say internal power is merely a metaphor and is in everything you do is just as misled as the people who think internal power is some bioelectrical/magnetic/spiritual nonsense.

Yes, it's pure body mechanics and yes, it's functional.

But no, it's not something that gets developed overnight and it's not some "ki" force like you see in the fantasy kung-fu movies or dragon ball z.

It's a body skill that takes a considerable amount of effort and training to be developed and it takes additional effort to meld it into fighting. It also has to be deliberately trained or you really are walking the path of "li".

Also, I agree that you can use many hsing i techniques with regular muscular strength but the difference is day and night.

Without being able to fajing, going from one attack to the next is MUCH slower since your limb needs to be c*cked to strike with power. If you don't c*ck back and just use your body momentum, what you end up doing is simply PUSHING the opponent with your body more than hurting them.

A fajing strike in contrast is very crisp, very quick, very hard, and from what I've seen, can be trained to come out repeatedly like a machine gun. Sort of like very quick jabs in succession but with the power of a solid right cross or uppercut (depending on the element, naturally).

This is much more conducive to the hsing i tactic of constantly driving into your opponent.

Sorry, but if you think internal power is bs, there's no point in continuing this discussion.

Edit: Stupid language filter.

[Xebsball]

Not talking just about beating dancers, I tell you that i could surely go on toe to toe with anyone of any external sytle (kickboxing, boxing, judo) that has the same amount of training that me and be able to handle myself. Can you say the same about your xing yi?


Originally posted by Muppet
Sorry, but if you think internal power is bs, there's no point in continuing this discussion.


Ooops, point where i said that (looks left, right, up, down, its nowhere!!)
You need to tell me what is that youre smoking, cos i want some of that too man.
What i clearly said is that its patheticly retarded bull**** to think you need so many years to be able to fight and effectively use power (be it external or internal), got it?
Never said internal power is BS, do you perhaps have some sort of problem on your eyes, you might need some really thick glasses. Read my post again, it says the internal part adds to the power and damage of your strikes.

[Ray Pina]

Brothers, your argument is in the same class as "what came first, the chicken or the egg."

Xebsball, of course your Hsing-I works! It was made to work and work quickly and roughly and knock people the f$%k out. But how deep and wide is your chicken foot after 5 months? How much dragon do you have in your dragon body? How deeply do you understand bear and eagle? Tiger head?

Without these what good are the 5 elements or the animals.

I think what Muppet is saying your Cambel soup will taste great right out of the microwave, its meant too. But if you take your time and get the best ingrediants and slowly cook them all day the soup will be much better.

One of you is arguing that you're ready to go right now. The other that they want to continue and go deeper to make sure they have it down.

Both are right. Go now! But don't be so satisfied and think that your 5 Requiremts have reached full capacity. Do theye ever?

There is really no argument here, so let's not create one. Have a good day gentlemen.;)

[Muppet]

First, you need to chill out.


Never said internal power is BS, do you perhaps have some sort of problem on your eyes, you might need some really thick glasses. Read my post again, it says the internal part adds to the power and damage of your strikes.

You wrote the following, right?

The power of everything you do is both internal and external, and beng quan for example is something that is very functional regardless of having "developed internal power" or not.

You need to make yourself clear, because it sounds a LOT like things that some karate guys say, like "ki is in every move you do".

Maybe you can explain to me just what internal strength is? And why you think it doesn't take a long time? By the way, I never said it takes 10 years.


What i clearly said is that its patheticly retarded bull**** to think you need so many years to be able to fight and effectively use power (be it external or internal), got it?
Never said internal power is BS, do you perhaps have some sort of problem on your eyes, you might need some really thick glasses. Read my post again, it says the internal part adds to the power and damage of your strikes.

Did I say someone couldn't fight w/o internal strength?

No.

I said their hsing i would be crippled without it.

HUGE difference.

W/o internal strength, hsing-i is just another striking style and I say nowhere near the best one in terms of getting up to speed in training and *ss-whooping.

W/ internal strength, hsing i becomes spectacular.

If you don't think so, so why don't you compete in several high-level MMA tournament with other guys of comparable size and training?

If I'm wrong, it would be nice to see a kung fu guy with good stats in the sherdog database, but somehow I doubt that will happen.

[Xebsball]

"First, you need to chill out."

To chill like you im gonna need that smoke you know, i told you before.

-The power of everything you do is both internal and external, and beng quan for example is something that is very functional regardless of having "developed internal power" or not.-

Let me explain this to you, real simple, i think you can get it from the 1st time you read (maybe...). It says beng quan crushes your ugly face even if you havent spent years developing internal. If you do have the internal to add to it, its even better.


"Maybe you can explain to me just what internal strength is? And why you think it doesn't take a long time?"

No, but thanx for asking, you sound really hungry for learning. Youre a smart one, i like that.


"W/o internal strength, hsing-i is just another striking style and I say nowhere near the best one in terms of getting up to speed in training and *ss-whooping."

Nope, its still one of the best, does lotsa damage and kicks lotsa ass.


"W/ internal strength, hsing i becomes spectacular."

Most definately, it doesnt become, it is.


"If you don't think so, so why don't you compete in several high-level MMA tournament with other guys of comparable size and training?"

Why would i compete? Did i ever said im a sport fighter? Man you must be on the real goooood ****e this time, son.
Another thing is why would i compete on "several high-level of comparable size and training" if that is contradiction -> since im not high-level and youre telling me to go against someone of comparable training that is high-level at the same time... wait... you really gotta lay off that ****e your inhaling :confused:


"If I'm wrong, it would be nice to see a kung fu guy with good stats in the sherdog database, but somehow I doubt that will happen."

Yeah wont happen, cos i dont compete, fool.

[Muppet]

You say you can take on judoka, kick-boxers, etc. with a comparable amount of training as you, but how do you know?

Have you fought any?

And if you have, how do you know you haven't been fighting chumps?

See, MMA competition is where the real test is at.

You really won't know how good you are until you do and you don't have to do it full time.

There are people who do it as a hobby--many enter thinking they'll do well and are surprised when they get their asses handed back to them.

I know better and I know I'm not ready. But if time is on my side, I *WILL* once I feel I've gotten to where I need to be.

[Xebsball]

havent fought, but i do know by both detailed scientific research and comparative statistics.

the real test is reality, not the ring. If you do get in the ring, please dont embarass me when you get confused between jabbing and "benquaning" in the middle of the fight.

[Muppet]

Oooh, ic.

Do you think Hsing I will give you better than an even chance against a .45 bullet hurtling to your chest?

Or how about a quick stab in the gut?

Or when you slip and fall on ice and your grappling opponent jumps on you?

Buddy, if you can't handle the ring where there's less to worry about, you're not even ready to use your art in real life.

[Xebsball]

dont pretend youre blind, the ring and the street are two different things. and xing yi was developed in the context of "street". im talking about fighting on the street, not getting shot or stabbed on the back, sure weapons are part of street fighting, but on the cases you mentioned -> you have already lost, you already have been stabbed game over dude! :D know what im saying?
of course you cant use xing yi once he already cut your friggin head off, fool, youre supposed to use it to prevent him from doing that, by beating the **** outa him
do i need to explain more?
c'mon i said youre smart, now you gotta live up to that standards, dont desapoint me!! :D

[Muppet]

i said youre smart

Just smart enough to know you're naive.

Do you think you can take out a guy wielding a knife with one day of training under his belt?

[Xebsball]

Never said i can right now (not even gonna mention the good ****e again...)
but training to fight against weapons is something one should indeed do, or do you think not, heh?
*****

[Brad Souders]

Actually Muppet if you look at Keith Hackney's stats there not to bad for an MMA KF guy. I do it as a hobby. Got my ass handed to me and i handed out a couple also. The ring and street are two differnet worlds. I know people who would get beat in the ring and kill Tito Ortiz in the street.

Internal is good for everything. Think about grappling. 90% of grappling is "feel" which in turn is internal energy. Like myself i'm a guard player always have been. But many people say i grapple like water. Why? Because i flow off someone's energy and redirect it back to how i want it to flow.

So there you are my fellow MMA fan. You can trust me been in there done that. Later, Brad

[omarthefish]

Without being able to fajing, going from one attack to the next is MUCH slower since your limb needs to be c*cked to strike with power. If you don't c*ck back and just use your body momentum, what you end up doing is simply PUSHING the opponent with your body more than hurting them.


Edit: Stupid language filter. [/B]

That's hilarious. Can you say "the pistol wasn' ****ed"?

How about, "****ake mushrooms"?

"the ******* son of Henry IV"?

Good thing nobody's talking about raising dogs here.

[Muppet]

Xebs,

Why don't you try your hand against a buddy armed with a magic marker?

See how many times you get "dotted" (i.e., stabbed)?

Or better yet, train for how many years you want and see how easily you can avoid getting dotted then.



Brad, are you talking about Keith Hackney the kenpo guy?
He has a 2/2 record with the last fight in '95.

Not bad, but looking at the records, two wins were against relative scrubs with the two losses against decent opponents.
He's obviously not "the best", but it's hard to say where he really sits so if he's fought since then, I'd be interested in looking at the records.

Anyway, in hand to hand only, what would your street guys do in the streets that MMA heavies also couldn't or wouldn't do?

Also, you may not be interested if you're primarily a ground fighter, but take a closer look into what powers the internal styles. It's not simply about feeling and redirection; what you described is a general tactic of tai chi (and aikido, to some degree), but is not what styles like Hsing I emphasize. However, they all share the same interesting body mechanics.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by Muppet
Xebs,

Why don't you try your hand against a buddy armed with a magic marker?

See how many times you get "dotted" (i.e., stabbed)?

Or better yet, train for how many years you want and see how easily you can avoid getting dotted then.


God ****** i already told you im not trained to fight knife guys now, what i said is one should train to do so and develop skills to handle this situation as one progresses. For now i am training only empty handed.
Fighting empty handed vs weapons is very hard, theres no doubt about that, but if you think that even with training its impossible then i can only feel sorry for you.
Let me put it this way, empty handed vs weapon is the last stage of fighting, its the hardest. First one learns hand vs hand, then weapon vs weapon and finally hand vs weapon. And then there is off course, the issue of multiple attackers, that makes things even nastier.

[Muppet]

That's right, start crying and making excuses again.

It *is* hard and it's the exceptional fighter who can successfully take on someone familiar with a knife.

In fact, it takes a long time and lots of gritty practice and I bet, *gasp*, that it takes years to become a competent and well-rounded fighter with an art like Hsing I.

So it's pretty stupid when you drop a line and say real life is the real test, because real life is a lot nastier and unforgiving than the ring.

So again, if you're not ready to use your art in the ring where your opponent is unarmed and the opponent is not allowed to maim you (at least not on purpose), you're definitely not ready to use your art in real life.

Hell, it's funny how you say you can take on kickboxers and judoka w/ a similar amount of training, but then you cry and say you're a beginner and you don't compete when I call you on it.

You're just blowing smoke.

And sure, you can randomly throw a sucker punch, throw chairs, hit w/ bottles, slash w/ a knife, etc. in real life but then that's not so much about Hsing I, is it?

And any RL trick you can do, so can your opponent.

It's only clueless guys like you who think a few months of training lets you fight w/ the art and start trumpeting that anyone

Idiot.

[Brad Souders]

Actually along with Ken Shamrock, Keith Hackney is part coach of the USA Pankration team now. Yeah he has to loses but against Marco Ruas and Royce Gracie when the UFC was an actual fighting event not boxing with smaller gloves.

There are two different type of MMA fighters. There are People like Tito who are mostly just trained for a ring. These people would forget things like eye gouges and thraot rips. (though tito has progressed a ****en hundred folds no doubt) And there are peeps like Silva. Coming from Brasil he lived on the street. He'd ratehr beat your ass then MMA you.

Feel is energy. But in boxing why do guys exhale when they hit. To porduce more power. They are contrating on blowing through the opponent. Thai's do the same when throwing leg kicks. The breathing/internal power produces an extra boost. It like when you lift weights. Do you do silent or give a yell when maxing out? You yell to give yourself that little extra boost.

[Muppet]

Alright, I see your point there.

But look at Tank Abbot. He wasn't really anything more than a brawler but all things considered, he did well.

People who've done well in the streets can adjust and do VERY well in the ring IF they have the skills.

With a little extra training, there's no reason why someone really skilled in Hsing I couldn't do well either.

Edit: Actually, I guess Tank is a bad example because he never beat anyone that was truly good, but for someone with no formal training he did alright.

[Muppet]

Btw, look into Mike Sigman's internal strength videos, especially his second one.

I'm not convinced that what he displays is 100% THE ONLY RIGHT way and there's nothing there that'll teach you how to fight, but I think it gives a pretty good idea of the difference between ordinary external methods and the internal methods.

[scotty1]

"A fajing strike in contrast is very crisp, very quick, very hard, and from what I've seen, can be trained to come out repeatedly like a machine gun. Sort of like very quick jabs in succession but with the power of a solid right cross or uppercut"

Uhhhhhhhhh............

*drools like Homer Simpson*

[Xebsball]

Muppet if we met, im sure youd be the one doing all the crying

real life is unforgiving and real, thats why its the ultimate real test avalible in our reality. Do you see a pattern taking place here? (hint: look for the word "real")

I never said ( <-- do we see yet another pattern, maybe?) that im not ready to use it on the ring, its quite clear from my previous statements that i dont intend to, dont want to get on a ring. If you want to, and that just cos i am granting you the chance to do so but only this time, you do can say im not ready and really wouldnt even if i intended to fight "high-level mma blah blah blah" since i said that myself a few posts ago. Those guys specialize on the ring, are paid by sponsors and they train like 6 hours a day (becouse its their job), wich already puts them on a huge advantage.
Oh so a guy on the internet named Muppet called me on it... OOOOHHH im moved!! Thats really an awesome reason to get on the ring!! YEAH THATS THE OPORTUNITY OF A LIFETIME THAT I LONGED FOR!!! :rolleyes:

Weakling.

[Fred Sanford]

Muppet, you big dummy.

[Muppet]

Now, you did say this:

the real test is reality, not the ring. If you do get in the ring, please dont embarass me when you get confused between jabbing and "benquaning" in the middle of the fight.


Let me tell you a story about reality.

Years ago (this is little under 10 years ago), I knew a marine who was stationed in Mexico which I'll call my buddy.

Now I can't really call this guy my buddy because he was really friends with my friends, but we did hang out now and then and it's just easier to tell the story this way.

Anyway, my buddy was stationed in Mexico and he went out for the night with his buddies in a local's bar.
Basically, some in the group started getting drunk and rowdy, started **** with the locals, and eventually left.
What they didn't realize was that my buddy was so sh*tfaced that he was knocked out at that table; and so he was left behind.

So much for street smarts.

Well, when the group eventually figured out my buddy wasn't with them, they went back only to find his throat was slit.

So at a tender age of about 20, he was buried six feet under because he never had a chance.

Moral of the story: Hand-to-hand combat plays a very small part in reality and real life fights.

Can I take you on? Honestly, I don't know. I don't know you and frankly, I probably wouldn't bother giving you a chance to fight fair.

Like I said very early on in this discussion, I know my limitations.
I'm not ready for the ring, much less a real life fight, and since I don't start drama, I don't have any remorse if I take someone out unfairly (in a more-or-less legal way only, of course) in a real life situation, no matter how unfair they may think it is.

In the ring on the other hand, fair's fair.

Anyway, I don't know if you're really in Brazil, but if you're ever in NYC, why don't you come down to my school and see for yourself just what I'm learning?

As I've said before, while none of the regular students in my school are any good, I'm not learning flowery crap like you keep thinking. In fact, you'll probably be surprised at just how good the instructor actually is.

Frankly, the school could use more students that don't subscribe to "mystical chi" or "electromagnetic" nonsense.

Edit: Changed "morale(sic) of the story" sentence.

[Djimbe]

<<<Mexico which I'll call my buddy.>>>


My old Buddy Mexico ....

[Muppet]

Any buddy of yours is fine, as long as it's not France.

[Djimbe]

Hey , Lay off the Frogs ... any country where EVERYBODY drinks cant be ALL bad ...

[Djimbe]

ACTUALLY ON TOPIC , however ...

I have a couple of mates that train at David Bond Chan's School in NYC , and he makes them Put on the gloves and bang Fists ... they say that He referrs to this as "stupid punching" , but also states that its needed , to strengthen/toughen the students .